Here is another example of public healthcare at its finest.

You are sick with something that can be cured with a simple surgery. 2 years later, you are still on the waiting list for said surgery despite having 'rights' to prompt treatment and a timeline of when they planned on doing it. The time limit is up and still no surgery. Too bad for you. The hospital won't budge despite your tears and pleading to help you already. 4 different 'helpful' government run health and welfare agencies that are supposed to help you, don't. So you sit and wait and wait. Your doctor will only write a letter to the hospital telling them to hurry up and fix her patient. It's up to you to badger the hospital because even the patients' rights people can't be arsed to lift a finger to help.

Little tip: The best doctors to have are the young ones who are still filled with the need to help people and not earn money doing as little as possible.

Just a quick adendum to that Kendra:

Ask those senior doctors how many times they've faced law suits regarding their help because some self important entitle brat of a patient wasn't happy with the outcome?

Ask how long it takes to pay those med school bills off.

Its not so simple as indifferent greed, and yes, the young docs want to make money too, school costs money and their skills are valuable. Don't they deserve to get well paid?

Guess I can add another 6 months or year to how long it's going to take me to afford my tummy tuck.

I am not in Canada or the United States. I am bringing up the social health care system of a European nation. I believe doctors should get paid very well for what they do but sadly here, that is not the case. They receive pay based on what the government says they should earn. You also can't really sue the doctors here for doing something stupid. A 16 year old boy had his wisdom teeth needlessly removed by a dentist and the dentist got a picture of himself in the newspaper hugging the kid and a slap on the hand.

I do hope you are not suggesting that I am some sort of spoiled brat.

Item Number 2 up there should be shoved under the upturned nose of every sanctimonious, judgmental Vegan (I'm not talking about the ones who don't act that way, and are vegan just because they like to be) out there just to make their stomachs churn.

Of course, I'm sure their "solution" to such a distasteful point would be to suggest reforming the reform by rescinding the "Right to Healthcare" of anyone who treated their body that way.

I'm running around now getting all my preventative stuff done before it costs me 50% more. I have awesome insurance right now, but that's likely going away thanks to Obamacare. I shudder to think what I'm going to have to pay for health insurance now.

Runaway Healthcare Costs
The inspiration for the following.

-----------
Fred tries a new restaurant. The waiter seats him at a group table for 10; this is an adventure. He isn't very hungry; a ceaser salad for $5 will do. The waiter asks "Will that really be all, Sir?" "Yes, just the salad."

The other nine people at the table all order lobster for $25! The person next to him explains that this is a Lunch Club which encourages community and good feeling. The costs for everyone are added together, and the bill is divided equally among the people at the table.

Fred quickly calls back the waiter and orders lobster.

- - -
Shared payment is the problem with the lunch club. Fred faces an average cost he can't control. Say he can get a salad for $5 or a lobster for $25. The change in his personal cost is just $2 [ ($25-$5)/10 ]. He would rather have the lobster for $2 more. This does not depend on the restaurant charging "fee for service".

If he can, he will avoid the restaurant unles he loves lobster. He pays just $2 more for the lobster, but of course pays $25 overall.

Everything would work well if each customer is billed separately. But, our health care reformers insist that we all pay the average costs together. They want to force us into lunch clubs just like that one, and have already gone far in doing this.

No Kendra, I'm not suggesting that you yourself are some sort of spoiled brat. That references the lawsuit happy problems that doctors in the U.S. live with.
Malpractice insurance goes through the roof, Anesthesiologists are increasingly rare because it is not nearly as profitable to practice and there is the constant danger that one of the many patients or their families will file a legal suit when things don't go just their way.

I don't know if y'all realize but folks of medicare age really don't have a choice. Hilary got a law passed in the 90's, which says if a doctor accepts medicare payment for even one patient, it is then a Federal crime to give services to any medicare qualified person for cash outside the system for a year or two, I forget. Prison.

I am told there are a small number of doctors in the US who have a truly private practice. They take no insurance of any kind, strictly cash. I assume only affluent people can pay it, but they avoid all the medicare rules and laws. In many cases, they do house calls. This may be what some doctors do in the future, unless Obama outlawed that.

Private Mexican doctors will be at your beck and call, just grab a flight to Guadalajara.

My wife and I are self-insured here in Mexico. My best friends run a private clinic, and they tell me they can fix me up with great private hospitals in Puebla, and that $5,000 USD will get an unbelievable amount of medical care. Here in the village services are limited.

And, they said the free government hospital will send us to that private hospital in the government ambulance if needed. And, they said the private hospitals take VISA.

Texas passed a law limiting punitive damages for malpractice, no limits on actual damages, to I think $250,000. My son-in-law whose uncle is country attorney says most greedy attorneys won't take a case now, because that $250,000 isn't enough milk and honey.

If all your damages are paid, why do you need millions of dollars in punitive damages?

Malpractice insurance dropped way down, and doctors stopped fleeing the state.

It isn't just malpractice. Most doctors don't do that, anyway. It's wonderful folks like Edwards who file suits in unclear cases, and basically extort out of court settlements, that helped drive up malpractice rates.

Not to mention the new legion of IRS cops to make us all fall in line.
If there is anything to that Karma thing, Pelosi ,O and the lot of them are due.

Oh, boo-hoo-hoo. We have some sort of ersatz national health care. I don't care anymore.
Get over it. Next story.

> Oh, boo-hoo-hoo. We have some sort of
> ersatz national health care. I don't care
> anymore. Get over it. Next story.

Rapier wit?

It's doubtful that you realize how teenage your comments seem to be. (See also the new guy "d00d". )

In this comment, we begin with childish sarcasm. (This from a man who complains, like a Southern Belle at an impoverished postwar cotillion, about the common people speaking indecently.) Then comes a too-condensed appraisal of the facts. Then "I don't care anymore", as if someone were asking if you did. Then another grade school taunt. Then a comment to suggest the rest of us are just here to entertain you... As if you couldn't find anything else of interest in your life.

Do you have any other thoughts to share about how "the English language is best used"?

aw, c'mon BOTU... this is the story that keeps giving... from congresscritters that haven't a clue what they just got signed into law, to women who are about to start paying medical device taxes every month.

Like any good monster movie, the first scare is NEVER the one that kills you.

"to women who are about to start paying medical device taxes every month."

Which one is that?

I found the Tanning Tax to be of particular interest - nice wealth redistribution. I mean, this is so completely disproportionate. This will affect mainly white women (or light skinned women). Yes, men and darker skinned folks do tan, but it's not their primary market demographic.

This also effects small business owners (and by and large, women who own small tanning studios). In my experience, when I did go to a tanning place (spray tan for weddings or vacations) all of the ones I went to were owned by women. That's not to say all are - but...

Crid-
My comment was short and pithy. It filled the bill--we (as a society) should move on to other topics.
Like mayne the $10 trillion we will spend in the next 10 years on a global military empire, a number that dwarfs any Obamacare outlays.
The Soviet Union (now Russia) almost totally demobilized after the Berlin Wall fell, much to the advantage of their society. Human and financial capital was directed into their economy (indeed, they need to further liberalize and make transparent their economy and legal system).
Does anyone for a moment think Russia would have been better off maintaining their huge parasitic military empire? Have not they gained immensely by dismantling it?
And the USA--we are still saddled with this Cold War parasitic relic of ossified fat and calcified blubber, parading around at a cost of $1 million per soldier in marginal expenses, should we dare spend the Niagara of money it takes to engage a few punk terrorists. I guess our goal now is to prop up the narco-state of Afghanistan, when fielding 38,000 more troops set us back $38 billion in extra outlays (for starters). The total costs may be triple that.

But hey--what is $10 trillion in the next 10 years? Who cares? We mnght get invaded by France, well no not France, but maybe Russia, well no not Russia, well maybe Brazil could maybe invade us in 2016.

Brazil. I heard there are some anti-Americans down there. Mardi Gras could be a spyfest in drag. And remember the pantybomber? He nearly got us. Maybe Nigeria is going to invade us too.

So, don't be a harsh fellow, be a marshmellow.

Pithy?

After all, if nobody had armies, there wouldn't be wars.

I suspect that BOTU is either being his normal asshole self, or he is functionally retarded.

Russia dismantled their military because they had no choice. And they haven't gained shit. Russia is still a hole 25 years after the wall fell. The countries that broke away from the USSR and became independent nations are in various states of existence, but most are doing better than Russia.

Just because there are no threats now doesn't mean there won't be. In 1939 nobody in their right mind believed that Japan would attack the US.

"2.You are young and healthy and want to pay for insurance that reflects that status? Tough." Great - until you are not "healthy" with an unexpected cancer, accident, etc. and have to go bankrupt and become a burden on the system.

"3.You would like to pay less in premiums by buying insurance with lifetime or annual limits on coverage? Tough." ==== Again, that's great until you come up against and unexpected life changing crisis that bankrupts you. Also, it's the insurance company that gets off the hook in this scenario by not actually having to cover your health expenses when they are really required. It's like paying the mob "protection" money.

"4.Think you'd like a policy that is cheaper because it doesn't cover preventive care or requires cost-sharing for such care? Tough." ==== What a wonderfully delusional thought that by not getting preventative health care, you'll never get sick! What color is the sky in this person's world? I'll bet it's a lovely shade of purple.

"20.If you go for cosmetic surgery, you will pay an additional 5% tax on the cost of the procedure." === Very sad that rich people will now have to pay a tax on their botox treatments.

"Very sad that rich people will now have to pay a tax on their botox treatments."

Sure asshat. The rest of us who need tummy tucks for ripped ab muscles and saggy skin from having more than one baby at once, well screw us! Never mind we're not rich, and really need it. Make us pay! Stick it to the man!

"What a wonderfully delusional thought that by not getting preventative health care, you'll never get sick! What color is the sky in this person's world? I'll bet it's a lovely shade of purple."

Again, asshat, the point is insurance should NOT cover forseeable small-ticket items. Car insurance doesn't cover oil changes, although they are needed, and health insurance shouldn't cover vaccinations. You know you're going to need them, plan your finances accordingly.

Well, it seems certain Republi-thugs have a way of expressing their displeasure with the new health care system we just bought. Just kill the children of those who voted for it.

Or threaten Stupak's life. And House Minority Leader John Boehn-head, the orange-skinned man, made a veiled death threat when he said Dreihaus "may be a dead man."

Such classy people. Republicans might want to rein in their constituents. Some states rescind the voting rights of convicted felons, and making death threats on political figures is a very good way to make sure you join the ranks of convicted felons.

modcons... what do you call the surgery after a mastectomy?

reconstructive cosmetic surgery. d'ya tax it, or do you give it a waiver? and if you give it a waiver, where is the line. oh and by the by, the implants that you need are medical devices that will have an excise tax now too...

I'm with Amy thinkin' there will have to be a VAT to pay for all of this, at which point all the happy people will know they got punk'd

we can all sit in the waiting room together and get drunk to get rid of the pain... and realize as in some countries like Japan, that it is the family that will be cleaning our bedpans an linens. Even though we will actually be paying MORE for the healthcare.

Because when you add a massive government class of technocrats to manage all of this, it COSTS MORE. That's why costs in the UK have gone up quite a bit in recent years, even when the care hasn't gotten better.

As always, it's better not to get sick, except you will be paying anyway.

Botox is explicitly exempted. Please take your ignorance and shove it up your ass with sixteen feet of curare-tipped wrought iron.

Want to bet that most of the people making threats and vandalizing people's offices are emotionally disturbed young men living in their mothers' basements? Ironically, they would be covered under the "up-to-25" child coverage under the monster that was just signed into law.

The Republicans have nothing to do with these idiots. And Boehner was probably speaking in the political sense.

>2. You are young and healthy and want to pay >for insurance that reflects that status? Tough. >You'll have to pay for premiums that cover not >only you, but also the guy who smokes three >packs a day, drink a gallon of whiskey and eats >chicken fat off the floor. That's because i>nsurance companies will no longer be able to >underwrite on the basis of a person's health >status. (Section 2701).
>3. You would like to pay less in premiums by >buying insurance with lifetime or annual limits >on coverage? Tough. Health insurers will no >longer be able to offer such policies, even if that >is what customers prefer. (Section 2711).

>4. Think you'd like a policy that is cheaper >because it doesn't cover preventive care or >requires cost-sharing for such care? Tough. >Health insurers will no longer be able to offer >policies that do not cover preventive services or >offer them with cost-sharing, even if that's what >the customer wants. (Section 2712)

>20. If you go for cosmetic surgery, you will pay >an additional 5% tax on the cost of the >procedure. Think you know how to spend that >money you earned better than the government? >Tough. (Section 9017).

These complaints are meaningless. No policy can give every person exactly what he wants all the time. This policy gives better coverage to more people than ever before. The point is to create a situation where everyone has to buy in to health insurance that covers most of the U.S. Some will pay more than they'd like, and some will have to have more insurance than they want, but all in all, more people get much better coverage than they have before, This is a great accomplishment for our country.

And if a 5% increase in taxes means 6 months of savings for elective surgery, maybe you need to rethink your priorities.

mpetrie: And Boehner was probably speaking in the political sense.

Nope. Captain Orangeskin's quote in context was, "Take Rep. Steve Driehaus, for example...he may be a dead man. He can't go home to the west side of Cincinnati."

"And if a 5% increase in taxes means 6 months of savings for elective surgery, maybe you need to rethink your priorities."

yep. Sure should. Because I could get the hernia and ripped muscles fixed with insurance paying (not for long I bet) but I'd have a huge (keloid, cause I tend to scar that way) scar from sternum to pubes, and tented skin pouffing up over my newly fixed muscles, because insurance won't pay for the cosmetic surgeon to sew me up with minimal scarring, and won't pay for the excess skin removed. But I shouldn't worry about that, right? Men aren't visual creatures, so no need to look semi-decent for my hubby, right? Just get my priorities in line, and accept sub-standard care. You betcha.

Oh, that's right, it's taking me so long to save up BECAUSE I put my kids needs first. Please make it take longer. Asshat.

And if a 5% increase in taxes means 6 months of savings for elective surgery, maybe you need to rethink your priorities.

Actually, for a great many people the tax increases are going to be the difference between paying the mortgage and getting put out on the street.

The bill as passed is going to make medical care less available and health insurance more expensive. Just like it did in Massachusetts.

"Or threaten Stupak's life. And House Minority Leader John Boehn-head, the orange-skinned man, made a veiled death threat when he said Dreihaus "may be a dead man."

BWHAHAHAHA! I can't believe you're falling for the MSM lies on this. It's as clear as the nose on your face that this is a Democratic Party / Axelrod talking point, with coordinated coverage by the media. And there's not a shred of credible evidence. No one has video of Jesse Jackson being called a nigger. (Jesse himself has plenty of video, but he won't release any of it because he knows it would disprove his point.) No one spit on John Lewis. Oh, but Bart Stupak got called a bad name! Poor widdle baby! Sarah Palin said "reload"! The sky is falling! Run around in circles! OMG! OMG !!!11!!!one!!!

Leftists can dish it out, but, you know the rest. John Boehner isn't the guy who has wannabe-mass-murderer Saul Alinksy as one of his closest confidantes.

"what do you call the surgery after a mastectomy?" IT'S CALLED MEDICAL NECESSITY YOU DUMBASS!

" IT'S CALLED MEDICAL NECESSITY YOU DUMBASS!"

Nope. NO medical necessity for boobs, which is why not nearly all women who lose their boobs get reconstructed, and not all insurance covers them. Try again, asshat, if you can get your head out of your ass long enough.

I'd rather be in the party of No than the party of gimme.

Oh, and all those threats? How come we didn't hear much about the ones against Republicans?

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/03/25/rep-cantors-richmond-campaign-office-shot-overnight/

There's a lot of paranoia about what might happen with this new package. But reading what the first round of changes will be, at first blush, I think there are some good things. First, insurance companies won't be allowed to deny coverage due to pre-existings. That's a positive change. IMO, making everyone buy into the insurance system isn't even a bad thing. Those who don't buy it are typically the ones who don't think they need it. Their usage will be less, and that will skew the actuarial tables to a more manageable cost of all of us. And the fact is that those people DO need care, and aren't getting it, making their issues more costly when they finally end up in the ER. And guess who gets to pay for those visits?

There have always been stop-gaps for things like cosmetic and/or elective procedures. Nothing new here.

Personally I think we should have just done away with insurance and made it a cash system. If we paid attention to our health care costs, shopped around (amazing differences in cost from one lab/provider/hospital/pharmacy to another - but we don't shop around! Would we buy a car without checking around?) we would get providers on board with our capitalist system - be competitive or die. Hell, our system is already socialized and has been since the advent of Medicare in the 40's/50's.

And one more thing. Screw this partisan bullshit. I'm sick of hearing it and don't trust anyone who starts with the talking points crap from either side.

I never realized Amy and her fans were such right-wingers. I'm disappointed.

Oh, and "taken aback," if you're going to leave three comments, leave them under the same name -- don't pretend to be three different people leaving three different comments.

"That's a positive change. IMO, making everyone buy into the insurance system isn't even a bad thing. Those who don't buy it are typically the ones who don't think they need it. Their usage will be less, and that will skew the actuarial tables to a more manageable cost of all of us. And the fact is that those people DO need care, and aren't getting it, making their issues more costly when they finally end up in the ER."

Now wait a minute... you seem to be saying two contradictory things... that there's a big group of healthy people who don't get insurance because they do need it, but at the same time, they have to keep going to the ER because they don't have it! Or maybe you meant two different groups. But I frankly don't buy the numbers that say that there is both a big pool of 40 million people who can afford insurance but don't bother, and a pool of 40 million people who need insurance but can't afford it. Those numbers just don't add up.

And as for those people who go to the ER every time the get a tummy-ache, Obamacare isn't going to change their behavior one whit. They aren't going to start going to a doctor regularly and taking care of themselves and being smiley happy citizens. They won't do those things because that would require some planning and self-responsibility, which is what these types of people are philosophically opposed to. If anything, they're going to be turning up at the ER even more often, because now they don't have to worry about the hospital's bill collectors getting after them.

Dave, I'm saying there's a big group of young adults who don't THINK they need it, some of who end up in ER because they don't have it.

A 22 year old who is offered insurance through his employer at $50 out of his weekly paycheck is going to make a quick cost/benefit caluculation and may well decide to pocket the money. And I can hardly blame him when the likelihood of needed care at that age is pretty slim. But in an emergency, he's going to end up in trouble. AND, that group's participation in the insurance machine, since they won't be costing as much as they're paying, will decrease costs across the board. Ask the insurance companies. They're frothing at the mouths to get a slice of that pie.

And a large group of poor people who don't buy it because they can't afford it who end up in the ER because they don't have it. I totally agree with you, some of those folks are going to keep doing the same thing. You're never going to get rid of stupidity no matter how many laws you pass. But there's a segment of that group who really want to do right and who will buy the insurance if they can figure out a way to afford it.

The complexity of this issue makes my head spin. There's no way to tell what will work, but all the partisan yelling isn't going to help. We just seem to get farther and farther apart. If we can leave the politics out of it, try to discuss the substance instead of making it another sound bite for the left or right, maybe we could see the truth. But the old white guys on the hill don't want that. It threatens their jobs.

It seems like universal health insurance would reduce costs by reducing emergency department use. But, this talking point is not closely examined, and is probably not true.

Current Medicare and Medicaid public insurance underpays doctors. Many doctors opt out, limiting the availablility of medical services. So, many insured patients go to ED's as a first choice. Ironically, the reimbursements to the ED's are below the cost of treatment, so the ED's are going broke also. Current policy is both costly and unsustainable, despite public insurance.

- -
25 Guage IVs - Medicaid Delivered at the Emergency Room

Quip:
Fred: When we subsidize insurance for everyone, like Medicaid, we will cut the huge expenses of providing care through hospital emergency departments.
Mike: Great. I'll tell that to the Medicaid patients crowding the ED right now.

03/07/10 - Throckmorton's Other Signs
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[edited] We are overwhelmed by out-of-state Medicaid patients. Their own medical centers avoid Medicaid and are on "divert" for almost everything. So, the patients go to out-of-state emergency departments, where by law they must be seen regardless of cost or reimbursement. Medicaid pays next to nothing, driving our centers further into the red.

Federally designed Medicaid insurance does not pay for reasonable costs. The rest of healthcare will collapse if the Feds expand the Medicaid model.
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