A trillion years ago, I was an intern for a large engineering company.

I did the work of an entry level engineer (although with different deadlines and more supervision). They paid me about 1/3rd the rate of an entry level engineer and about 3 times the rate of a college kid working in the library or cafeteria.

It was a win win all around.

I think it's disgusting the way kids are given either a) menial work, or b) no pay, and one of the real problems of the "no pay" internship is that it still benefits the intern by providing key contact with future hiring managers, and yet, the poor kids can't afford to work for free so this is just another way of re-creating the old boys network -- and now it's considered mandatory to work an internship and to work them at the best companies.

Attacking Green jobs? How could you! ;)

When government gets all precious about the poor exploited intern, it's because they know that if they have start paying for their OWN interns, the taxpayers will cover the bill anyway.... Or as in so many matters, the Congress will exempt itself from any corrective legislation.

You must never allow yourself to be impressed by any effort from "the Labor Department's wage and hour division." If they do good works, they do them with your money.

My company pays them, a good bit better than minimum wage. We want to hire the good ones when they graduate, why would we exploit them?

Hey, Amy. Hypothetical question...since you're a writer, when does the line between work and interning get crossed?

Suppose you had someone interning, he came over to watch you and your assistant work to see the creative process involved in writing an advice column. As you and your assistant debate a certain point or a choice of words, the intern throws out a phrasing that you both like much better, and you use it. Did this intern just do work? You drew on his creativity.

Or perhaps you might say, since you're the arbiter of your column, the "work" was done by you, since you have the only "veto" power.

Patrick, I changed the above (about the high school student) to reflect "for a day" -- observing my work for a day. This actually has yet to happen, but there was a girl from Uni High I talked about having do this: come over and hang out for a day. It never came to pass, but I'd love to do this. I'd buy the kid lunch, but they won't be here to participate, just to listen.

Again, I don't have interns, wouldn't have an intern, never have had an intern.

So Crid, even when the government does good, they are doing evil, because they're doing it with OUR money!?

That's venturing across the border to CrazyTown.

The government is US. I like when my taxes pay for good things.

Hey Franko! I've got a ton of good things to do over here! Send money!
--
phunctor

The government may be you, but it isn't me. Just for the record.

I'd say you have listened to too many Fourth of July political speeches. Just saying.

The sort of people who work in government jobs tend to be those who want total control over their neighbors. This was known in 1789, which is the reason for the Second Amendment, which has been abysmally neglected.

I want to work for Amy!

Here in Mexico, the universities and technical schools issue the licenses to practice, instead of having a separate licensing bureau. So the schools need to be certified to issue those licenses.

In most cases, in most careers, there is a need to perform an internship after schooling. Since it is mandatory, and not just another line on a resume, I am afraid internships don't pay much of anything.

I convinced a cousin to let his daughter go to the University in a tourism course, and I would pay, most months it has not run over $300 USD, and at first much less. She is done this month. She has had lots of "practices" which substitute as internship. Usually, she gets paid nothing.

One hotel did give her meals, which she really appreciated, and since I was paying everything so did I, heh, heh.

Mexico does have a Labor department, probably with bigger teeth than the Labor department in the US. But, as long as the internship is included as part of the college program, sorry, Charlie, you pay your way while you work as an intern.

In the U.S. factory where my wife and I worked, they had internships, and they paid only a modest amount, and yes, they did the work of a regular employee.

Watching them, it looked more like obtaining work experience, rather than learning as such. In many careers, work experience is demanded, but very hard to obtain. With the high costs of trying an inexperienced person in today's legal environment, it probably did make sense to work interns at low pay.

And,for the young, it means perhaps getting a job based on that work experience, rather than no job at all.

I am told by U.S. lawyers that most law school graduates do not end up working successfully as lawyers, because they can't get the work experience needed.

"Either you're a high school kid observing my work for a day, in which case I won't pay you, but I'll buy you lunch while you're here, or you work for me, in which case I'll pay you and buy you lunch and mentor you/help you with your writing."

Hands down, one of my favorite things about Amy.

Not a bad idea LL...but I'd sooner have Amy working for me! The employer always makes more than the employed!

I love capitalism.

> even when the government does good,
> they are doing evil, because they're
> doing it with OUR money!

If they're doing it with your money, they're not doing it. And as a righteous citizen, you're bound to do good things for people anyway. You will always, always do more "good" by your own hand than will a technocracy that seeks to sedate and fleece you with fables of kindness.

> The government may be you, but it
> isn't me. Just for the record.

Thanks. I as gonna fly off on a tangent about that.

A old friend from the hometown reconnected through facebook recently, and was smiling about some $20 tax break from Pelosi, as if it were a gift. I repeatedly tried to remind him that it was HIS OWN MONEY, the gift of no one... But he couldn't take the point.

It was psychedelic, like a funhouse mirror. He just couldn't hear that this was not about government being nice.

"he bragged about his 'free health care.' Free right."

More interesting, to me anyway, is not just the increased wealth pull from private sector in the form of direct taxation, but also the hidden costs that never appear: the investment foregone that would have spun off increased wealth, the new research developments wrought by incentivized profit seekers, etc. Those "lost" productivity increases and wealth stores (which previously, when compounded over two centuries became, well, modernity's current living standard. Like it, folks?) cannot be entirely regained later. It is like more earning income at 60 years of age versus earning that income at 25--there is less time for compounding returns.

That lost GDP growth and new development stacking is the more devastating loss, and we pass it on in perpetuity, because the loss is forever.

I didn't think you ever had an intern, since you state that you never have. I was asking hypothetically if you did have an intern, etc...

Thank you! All my internships have been paid--paid internships are harder to find, but no way in hell am I working for free--I'm more motivated when I'm getting paid and produce better work. The article makes a good point about how it creates a class divide--I went to a fancy-schmancy school for undergrad, and it always amused me how parents would pay for their kid to fly to and live in Paris/LA/New York to have an UNPAID internship.

I'm mixed about the unpaid-internship-for-credit concept. On one hand, a student gets to replace a useless elective with practical hands-on experience that could lead to a job. But, on the other hand, the student is paying the SCHOOL to work somewhere.

Amy,

John was thinking about offering an internship for indexing his books. No word yet if he advertised for one yet.

I don't see what's wrong with offering credit on the cover and with publisher for the work. What about offering a percentage of royalties instead of actual hourly wages?

I'm mixed about the unpaid-internship-for-credit concept. On one hand, a student gets to replace a useless elective with practical hands-on experience that could lead to a job. But, on the other hand, the student is paying the SCHOOL to work somewhere.

I have mixed feelings about this, too. I did an internship at a book publisher about a thousand years ago, when I was in college. It was unpaid, but I got credit and a lunch stipend. Not getting paid sucked, but the experience I got there was far more valuable than any class I would have taken. The people there were very generous with their time and wonderful to work for, and I got a job offer after graduation (that I ultimately turned down because I had accepted one somewhere else already).

I think unpaid internships are a good introduction to the fact that you're going to have to suck shit for awhile when you first start out.

I have no problem with unpaid internships. The intern gives their time, and recieves (in theory) experience and a recommendation, and meets people it's useful to know in their feild. No one's forcing them to take the internship.

sofar said: "I'm mixed about the unpaid-internship-for-credit concept. On one hand, a student gets to replace a useless elective with practical hands-on experience that could lead to a job. But, on the other hand, the student is paying the SCHOOL to work somewhere"

This was for law school, which is very different from undergrad, but I did this by working for a judge (doing research and drafting opinions) for class credit, and it was incredibly valuable. As you said, I missed out on another elective (yay!), but I also got enormous experience, an in with several judges, got to meet attorneys and watch real work being done (law school is very theoretical) and I spent around the same amount of time at it as I would have for a class with the same number of hours (and it was much more enjoyable time!). That judge's recommendation certainly helped me land my present job (which is doing much of the same thing, but for money and full time).

As for the paying the school part, I did have a professor coordinating, discussing, evaluating, etc- she was very hands on, so I certainly don't feel like it was a win for the school.

So, if the program is good, I think interning for class credit can be a great thing. I'm sure there are a lot of lousy programs, though.

@MonicaP and Lyssa. Totally. As long as you're getting something in exchange--and, for me, getting out of an elective and replacing that time spent in class with real-world experience is worth just as much (or more!) than an hourly wage.

I guess, for me, it becomes a problem mostly with summer internships. Some schools (like mine) won't allow them to be credited if school is not in session. And some companies take advantage of this, offering internships that are hugely work/time intensive and great learning experiences that kids who can't afford to work for free miss out on.

Okay, Amy. Then we'll hypothesize about someone else. Say a certain idiot who took over a widely publicized advice column from her mother...hypothetically speaking, of course.

Say this advice columnist did have an assistant, equally idiotic, and they bat around certain ideas about how their idiotic ideas should be phrased.

Now, say this idiotic advice columnist got an intern to watch her and her equally idiotic assistant bat ideas around.

The intern, observing these two cretins who probably have about one brain cell between them, suddenly has a brilliant inspiration and blurts it out. The columnist, despite her idiocy, thinks the idea is wonderful and uses it...

Did the intern just work? Was his creativity and inspiration drawn upon and used? Is he then no longer an intern and should be compensated if the idea is used?