Money quote:
people will tell you what they're all about -- if you're willing to listen.
- - - - - - - - -
Bingo.

But narcissists are too busy waiting for you to stop talking so they can project The Splendour of Me. They're not listening.

Such folks deserve each other.

Such folks deserve each other.

Totally.

It amazes me that this woman, who claims to read your column, doesn't realize that she sounds like the very women she claims not to be. You know, the women who say that they have high standards when it comes to men, then turn around and complain that all the men they date are jerks.

Do you think I KNEW he was a narcissitic pig when I started dating him? Why do you think I stopped?

How long did she date him before dumping him? Actually, I guess the more appropriate question would be how long after she found out he was a narcissistic pig did she date him? It sound like they were together for more than a couple of dates. She's gorgeous and thin and has dated a string of jerks. Seems to me like maybe she's putting out some desperate vibes, else she would have better luck weeding out the jerks. Mature, together men don't tend to go for women in desperate need of validation, but narcissistic pigs do. In fact, it seems to me that the number one target for narcissistic pigs are beautiful women with low self-esteem. I know Amy's said it on here before, but the best way to attract a good man is to act like you don't need one. The problem for women like this is that the numbers are greater when you don't have minimum standards, and the desperate tend to go for quantity over quality.

And could someone please explain to me how her claim that Amy's responses are formulaic crap has anything to do with the rest of her email? She starts out with that and never follows up on it.

Totally off-topic, but "I probably misspelled that" is NEVER okay in a letter. Misspellings are easily fixed and the addition of that statement does not excuse them (and her misspelling of "narcissistic" would definitely be caught by spellcheck, so that is no excuse, either). Sorry, but that crap drives me batty.

That thing was too densely-packed to read. But I don't think men are appreciably more evil or virtuous than women are.

> that crap drives me batty.

I hear you, but it's always been a surprise how tremendously successful people aren't very good at spelling or punctuation or any of the rest of it... They seem to have give their attention to other details.

Does anyone remember the defensive letter Clinton 'wrote' a couple of years ago after the Vanity Fair piece? It was English, but it was still embarrassing. We were left to wonder if he'd ever had an articulate moment without the support of taxpayer-supplied English majors.

Anyway, what bugs me about this person is the hyoooge paragraphs.

"But I don't think men are appreciably more evil or virtuous than women are."

But CNN posts the article, "Are men hard-wired to cheat?"

Yes - with women who do not give a damn what the guy does with some other woman. And a bunch of women have kids that aren't "Dad's".

Have you noticed some people don't know how to use paragraphs, either?

What I find amazing is how, right off the bat, she is talking about how men can be incredible assholes and still get the girl. The fact that they are assholes is their problem, but the fact that they get the girl is the girls problem.

Does she not get that women are free in this country? Their dads aren't arranging marriages for them with nice dependable men. If they are with a bastard that doesn't treat them worth a crap, that is their choice.

Not to mention, women like Denise who expect to pursue bastards then somehow have them magically changed into Mr. Right are actually providing positive incentive for Mr. Right to act like a bastard to attract her.

If Denise wants men to stop being assholes, then she should stop dating known assholes and dump any man the minute he starts acting like one.

I'm still at a loss for how Denise expected Amy to fix her bad taste.

In reference to the never ending battery of emails… a women also has the last word in an argument. Anything you say after that is the beginning of the next argument.

Realizing "You can only control your behavior" is the difference between an adult and a child. There are many chronologically advanced children around.

Amy, I have no idea how some people who can hardly write a semi-decent letter get into verbal spars with you. If they read your blog for more than 2 days, they would know where they will end up. Front page and looking foolish. Here's a tip to give to these people; if an eighth grade English teacher would give it an F, don't bother to send it.

This LW probably wrote Amy feeling she was taking her aside and explaining what was wrong with her responses to people and expecting a big load of gratitude. I imagine her smug smile after she hit send as if she let Amy in on some little secret. I found nothing nasty or inappropriate with Amy's response. LW has a screw loose somewhere because she was fighting a losing battle and with each email a little of her sanity was eroding.

Something I take issue with is her belief that men are assholes and can still get a date. Its been my experience that a woman no matter how fat, ugly or nasty can always get laid. I know plenty of women that are with assholes just as I know plenty of men who are with bitches. I don't think either gender has the monopoly on poor taste or judgment in a partner.

I hate to sound like I'm kissing Amy's ass here, but she's right. I've been single and alone for the past several years. In the past when I've dated its only when the kids have gone with their father and I found that I wasn't in a good enough place myself where I was attracting quality men so I stopped dating to work on me. I haven't given up on men or ever meeting someone but for now I have enough on my plate. That doesn't mean all men are assholes!

Aside from the rest of her idiocy, it always amazes me that people get upset over insults that aren't true. If an insult has some truth to it, sure, it can hurt; but why would you let an insult that is false bother you?

The fact is here, that with her behavior...only the assholes would date her.

Maybe she didn't start off as a shrew. Maybe at one point she was a person that was basically decent, and then took a wrong turn when she was getting easily duped by people who were assholes. Rather than recognize HER contribution to this, she became hostile to men in general. And now it is only the assholes that will go after her. The barely concealed rage against my gender would be more trouble than it was worth for me, and I get shot at for a living. Nobody wants an angry man hating bitch for a mate.

And whatever she was when she got started, that is certainly what she is now.

I apologize if I miss this. But, to me it is obvious she is rather narcissistic herself. She lets us know she is hot. And, I think in one place she talks about dating hot guys.

Of course she dates hot guys, because she is narcissistic and thinks being hot she deserves hot guys.

I am not a great expert on dating issues, but in my experience hot men and women are virtually always narcissistic.

So, why doesn't she date a telephone repairman who lounges around in blue jeans? Heck, no, I am too hot, I deserve a hot guy.

When I counseled divorced men, I'd get some guy whose wife, er, ex-wife, was hot. And, she really wrecked him.

In a year or two, he'd be back. His next wife, er, ex-wife, was also hot.

Another two or three years, he'd be back. His third ex-wife was hot. I'd try to tell them, "Why not get a less attractive wife with a real personality?"

"Nope, I gotta' have a hot wife."

Then, he would conclude there were no good women. Now, maybe he was right, I can't say, but he had no way of finding them. Most hotties are self-centered. What a surprise, NOT.

As far as him telling her that her butt was fat, the put-down is part of the standard gamester's list of things to say and do to put a hot woman on the defensive. Perhaps it doesn't work for her, but it allegedly does for most women.

Women should know this. The put-down as a control mechanism has been used by women for a very long time.

The thing Denise is struggling with is that she does not have the ability to judge people. Possibly she was raised in an environment where she was taught that doing so is immoral; there's a lot of that around these days.

And deep down, she knows this. But it hurts her ego to admit it to herself. So she has an inner conflict. It's tough. I've been exactly where she is, so I know. Twenty years ago, I could have written all of her emails, word for word. Denise needs to spend some time people-watching, and noting how they interact. She needs to get involved with something where she will be interacting with different people in a non-work, non-romantic context. She needs to see that she's not the only person in the world who gets hurt. Yes, in a perfect world, everyone would treat you with respect. But in the real world, some people are jerks. Part of the trick of living is to learn to pick out the jerks sooner, so you don't waste too much of your time with them.

Denise internalizes every criticism because, deep down, she can't convince herself that she doesn't deserve it. That's a bad mental habit that just has to be worked on. You have to practice it, like practicing a sport or an artistic skill. It feels pretty stupid at first. You just have to stick with it. Self-affirmation gets a bad rep because there are so many hippy-dippy-trippy types writing flowers-n-daises books about it. No purple prose is necessary. Just keep telling yourself, "I'm better than that, damn it". And be honest with yourself. When you screw up, admit it. When you don't screw up, don't accept the blame; throw it back in the face of anyone who tries to stick you with it.

Denise, seriously. When I was 27, I was you. You don't have to live like that. There are better ways. But you have to make the effort.

Amy, I think your responses to her were very kind.

It sounds like the LW is either attracted to assholes, or brings out the asshole in the men she dates.

My guess is the former, based on her perception that men can get someone else quickly and easily regardless of their behavior.

This isn't true for most guys. It's more often the case for assholes and lotharios, neither of which tend to have very high standards. That's why it's easy for them.

Also a lot of women are attracted to assholes, even grown women.

Amy, you must have the patience and determination of a saint to keep responding to rage-filled types like "Denise." (Trust me, saints throughout history could be pretty ornery, albeit in a good way. :-)) I'm at a loss as to why some people apparently prefer to keep making poor choices and waste their energy being angry at the world instead of building up their own confidence and self-esteem so they won't feel the need to cling to narcissists and other jerks.

Methinks LW needs some anger-management classes! Seriously, if she doesn't want you to email her, Amy, why did she bother emailing you in the first place? Oh yeah, because she's narssistic and wanted your attention, too!)

Totally off topic, I'm going barefoot all day today in support of Tom's Shoes "One Day Without Shoes" event. It's, like, 70 degrees here in CT, I like not wearing shoes, and it's for a good cause, so why not?

http://www.onedaywithoutshoes.com/index2.php

I think I dated her. :)

I dated a girl once who obviously had NPD or borderline, to the point it was scary. But like everyone with NPD, she thought everything bad is someone else's fault. And was full of rage at men, and hilariously bragged about how self-aware she was. Lucky for me I stood up for myself and got out, and learned something about myself and how I enable people to hurt me sometimes. In the end it was a growing experience.

There are many jerks in the world. The LW should try to avoid them, but first has to take a good long look at herself and work on her first before she should date and mess up herself or someone else.

"It's people who date people who put up with it."

Guilty as charged.

My new personals ad:

Hot spiritual emotionally well-adjusted guy who looks like a model but is completely straight with chiseled abs seeks hot babe to discuss me. Size 4 fatties need not apply. Twins considered. No narcissists.

I don't recall telling people how "together and fabulous" I am. In fact, I try to be funny, and there's nothing less funny than being together. Which I'm not. I have ADHD, I can't remember if I put on deodorant five seconds after I put on deodorant, and my home decor is best described as "recently ransacked."

Thank you for that! I read your columns partly (largely) for your humor and proud acceptance of your ADD. Me Too!

"In reference to the never ending battery of emails… a women also has the last word in an argument. Anything you say after that is the beginning of the next argument."

So, since they're both women, then the emails are still going on?

Four words: external locus of control.

From--"I really like your column and your honesty with people.."

To--"Don't psychoanalyze me you pathetic bitch! Go away."

Whee! The fun never stops around here.

and oh also (Not too coherent)

Cousin Dave gave a very good comment, and the reference to Cognitive Therapy,

http://www.rebtinstitute.org/public/

by someone was very appropriate. CT is effective for patterns of negative thinking, but it is VERY hard to break patterns. I've been through CT and it's very effective if you really do your homework.

The comments about "never meeting decent, kind, etc., men/women" are funny also, because those complainers insist on other characteristics that often go along with bitchiness, hostility, rage,narcissism, you-name-it. If they have to have someone "hot" "or ripplin' with 6 packs", then they may get the other enduring qualities in the package deal.

"I can't remember if I put on deodorant five seconds after I put on deodorant, and my home decor is best described as "recently ransacked."

This could be me on any given morning.

Good advice.

I know for me, when I am not willing to accept reality as it is, that is when I get the angries and the nutties going. I can be very irrational when this happens.

It is only when I am finally able to gain some perspective on what has happened that I am able to feel better - and I noticed for me that only happens is when I can find my responsibility in what happened and what I could do better (just like you said) next time.

The loop I have to watch for at this stage of my learning how to be a Big Person (because I now know finding my part and responsibility in things = relief - cuz "I don't gotta do THAT again") is I tend to get really anxious about doing it again anyway - even though I now know what I did wrong and what I need to change.

My mind just "goes there" even though I know it is illogical. I have had people tell me it is because it is the mental habit that has been put in place for so long (and my OCD really likes to complete this process).

So now it's all about practice, practice, practice.

Really enjoyed the exchange you posted. I got a lot out of it.

What's her point? What is she trying to convey? Is she asking for advise or offering it? Whatever it is, its lost in this stream-of-consciousness rant, the net result being a unflattering portrait of a mentally unbalanced person.

If you can't string a few sentences together to get your point across effectively & efficiently, some guy calling you fat isn't your most pressing problem, & a letter to an advice columnist isn't going to get you the help you need.

Amy@ Just like little kids

This struck me as a funny end result of the classic "women as the superior sex" that was the style of the day back during my maleducation at Moo U.

One of the claims then was that men needed women and were always surrounded by them in life -- mother, wife, daughter, caregiver -- but that women did not need men.

This creates a great escape: If I'm a bad man, it's just the way a woman (usually "my momma") made me.... Get out of responsibility free!

The blind hatred of men is steeped in this same sort of identity politics that fails to realize everyone's an individual, with his or her own mix of characteristics, and the only really safe bet is that, if you dig deep enough, everyone's got some really disgusting habits and personality traits.

Her remarks suggested she certainly held an opinion of gender superiority, to which there is only one reply: Be careful what you wish for!

"Men are responsible for most of the horrible behavior and you are an enabler."

Jeesh, I'd like to sit her down and tell her about my *Mother*. But, she kinda sounds like her.

And to what Robert said, about her taking a wrong turn somewhere and becoming this ill.

I suppose anything is possible, but I believe this is either 1) pathological in which, there is just not a lot of hope in changing it or 2) this was a direct result of early childhood experiences and thus a learned behavior she considers "normal". But I am not an expert. I just know my own experiences with the cognitive behavioral process.

Being raised by a mother with addictions and Borderline Personality Disorder, I have tendencies towards behaviors displayed by my Mother (which I am embarrassed to admit, but excited that they have lessened quite a bit over the last two years with the help of therapy).

There is a difference though, I wanted to change because I was miserable and tired of being a complete asshole. Borderlines are quite comfortable living that way without the slightest bit of self-reflection.

Amy, you get the funniest emails. I love how straight forward you are when you write. I know it might take some people by surprise. That's probably what happened here- though of course I haven't read the rest of her responses.

I was surprised to read that you have ADHD. I know that isn't really a topic that you typically cover, but I was wondering if you have written about it in the past? I was diagnosed with ADHD when I was 16 (many, many moons ago.) and am always trying to find ways to "deal". (I don't like using that word- but a better one doesn't come to mind at the moment. "be aware of my brain" might be better.)

seems like the whole thing was projection on her part... becomeing enraged by someone you sought advice from, seems like a narcissist to me. Hope she doesn't wreck the next actually nice hot guy she meets. There are one or two of them out there, I'd wager.

She thinks you're formulaic?! The only thing that's formulaic (or should I say consistent) is the reader response to letters, which can usually be summed up in one word: "Run!" ;)

You ever see those bing comercials where the person being talked to ges inti 'search overload'?

That what my brain is like. I constantly have at least two trains of thought if not more running at the same time.

currently I have tchaikovskys dance of the flowers from nutcracker running in a loop in the background of my mind, plus Jimmy Eat World on the radio, while Im typing this and imagining a more compact fomat for my businesses spreadsheets whie waiting in line for a car wash.

also rereading and editing my spelling mistakes, oddly enough I spelled tchaikovsky correctly, plus a couple of things I probably shouldnt describe in too much detail.

thanks luj, now I have Tchaikovsky plying in a strange dancetime with a band called The Pillows and a song called beautiful morning... in Japanese.

Our brains, just gotta love how they decide to work... look, shiny.

Amy did two things: Systematically removed every excuse for the LR's angry behavior, and then offered her solid ways to deal with the problems in her life.

And was quite polite and civil throughout the whole exchange.

On the other hand, the LR became more and more enraged and incoherent as the letters continued. I would imagine that in the end, she would be sputtering sentence fragments constructed from every slight, every perceived insult, every social snub, and every circumstance that irritated her all the way back to toilet training.

>>

Nicely done Ms Alkon. From the commentary I see above, it looks like many folks were paying attention to your lesson today.

Funny ... a couple of comments made:

"A lot of women are attracted to assholes"

and this one: "Most hotties are self-centered."

Back in grade school, the biggest Mean Girl in my small-town class of 57 students was also the prettiest. She was the little girl in fifth grade who was already wearing Calvin Klein jeans, and her mom would let her do pretty much anything. If you got invited to her house, you would get to stay up as late as you wanted and watch rated-R movies like Salem's Lot or the Exorcist. And of course, the funnest part for her and her Chosen Ones was that they could come back to school the next week and brag about all the stuff they got to do, gleefully rubbing our noses in the fact that they had been invited when the rest of us ugly ducklings hadn't been.

If she got offended by someone, she would rally her little troop of followers and mount a hate campaign against her offender. The person would be mercilessly bullied until she chose to forgive them. And then - almost as if by magic - the rest of the kids would forgive them, too! The teachers fawned over her as much as the students and sought her favor, so she was never punished for being a bully.

It became obvious to me at a young age that it's easy for attractive people to behave terribly - people will still kiss their asses. I imagine that for people like our little Mean Girl, it becomes kind of a game. Measuring your own cuteness by how much you can get away with. If you play that game against someone as attractive as you are, it's an even bigger challenge.

Of course there are some beautiful people who are also lovely on the inside, because they have been raised properly. But if your parents didn't care about your character, and you discovered from a young age that you could get away with anything you wanted without even trying, you probably never would try. Why be nice, or develop a personality, if you don't have to?

I just don't think it's a coincidence that those people who only want to date "hotties" find themselves dating a lot of assholes.

"If she got offended by someone, she would rally her little troop of followers and mount a hate campaign against her offender. The person would be mercilessly bullied until she chose to forgive them."

Ohhhh, I HATED that. Ugh.

If she got offended by someone, she would rally her little troop of followers and mount a hate campaign against her offender.

These people don't change. They just pick different things to be jerks about.

The funny thing was, I saw a comment on-line about her, not too long ago. The person was describing how rude, abrupt, and utterly dismissive she was towards him when they met. It didn't surprise me at all. Thirty years later, and she is still a little snot who treats people like shit. The funny part is, the person telling that anecdote happens to be her husband. Lucky guy - bet he's real happy about the 60+ pounds she's put on since her "hottie" days. :-D

I know a few reformed Mean Girls so I won't say they all become mean adults. Some people learn as they go through life and take responsibility for their behavior and mistakes and others don't. LW doesn't sound like someone willing to take responsibility for anything. She was too busy telling us how hot she is and how all her dates turn into assholes to stop and realize that she is the common denominator. Rather than look inward, she blames Amy. Sounds pretty rational to me.

LW: I may have this all wrong, but once upon a time, I was an attractive young woman. When I was at the mall, I would usually see the flash of cameras. Men vied for my attention. I ALWAYS ended up attracting the narcissistic jerks.

How was that? Was it co-incidental? No. Later, I realized my problem. I was defensive. I was immediately snotty. I pushed most guys away and secretly reveled in my "power". What nice guy would want me? I wasn't even remotely nice. The only guys I really even got to know were those that were very persistent. Those that would work until they broke down my defenses and persuaded me to go out with them.

In other words, narcissistic jerks who really didn't know me when they started pursuing me: Those guys who ignored all of my signals to go away and kept trying to win me over. I was part the thrill of the chase. Something they could wear on their arm like a trophy. And if I didn't look perfect, they would criticize (yes, I was criticized for being fat at a size 4 - and size 4 used to be smaller than it is today).

I needed to get to know guys as friends. To look past appearance. I did seem to acquiesce to a suitor more easily when he was hot. I wish that I had taken a more active role in my life: Looking for good guys rather than being adrift and allowing myself to be romanced by someone who was more in love with the IDEA of me than me.

Luckily, if I ever have to get back into the dating program, my looks will not be a hindrance. Men will definitely have to like me for my personality.; )

It's wrong to hate a woman because she's beautiful. There was a commercial about that on TV once.

Jen, thanks for those comments. If you're willing, can you tell us what changed it for you? What did you do to break that behavior pattern?

There are decent men out there. I think some (many?) women just tend to find themselves more attracted to assholes than to decent men. It's not true that 'men' go through one girl after the other, only the few 'assholes' do ... and this is part of their attraction to women, because women perceive men to be more attractive when they perceive that he is "in demand" from other women. Part of maturing is learning to recognize these animal instincts and overcome them to make more rational choices instead. My brother is one of the most decent men I know, not bad-looking, definitely not poor, but struggles to get dates because he lacks confidence, so whenever I hear a woman whining about how impossible it is to find a decent man I roll my eyes a bit. Nonetheless, I must admit I make the same mistake, finding myself attracted to women who are trouble. It's not always easy to correct behavior even when you're aware of it (though being aware and admitting it is obviously a crucial first step).

I'm gorgeous. and THIN.

I think I've figured out the problem here - it's everybody else who are the narcissists.

Or something.

Cousin Dave,

I just looked around and noticed which of my friends were happiest; which one's had the best marriages and analyzed the relationships because I wasn't happy. They were. I asked myself, what did they have in common? And how did I end up here?

I realized that they made choices and got to know their spouse really well before dating them. It was not love at first sight.

I let myself be distracted by the attention that I received. Rather than taking a lot of time to get to know someone that had potential, my head was turned by guys that seemed to have it all. Perhaps they treated me to a really good time, or were charming, or very attractive. Of course, those guys were so charming and confident because they had had a lot of practice. They had women clamoring for them and often didn't appreciate what they had. Like me, there were always distractions. People may become shallow when they don't have to work. There is always someone waiting around the corner.

I don't know how other women can learn this lesson. Perhaps it just takes experience. When you are young, it kind of "makes sense" to become protective when you've been hurt. It is easy to think that the guy who goes all-out really likes you, but when he falls for a woman based on appearance, she is just in for a world of hurt.

I guess there are some benefits to getting older. Hopefully, we do become wiser.

I was at an event years ago that had Timothy Night speaking.

He had a simple formula
Events + your Response = the Outcome

I have been much more laidback since then. I now try to think before responding.

Denise: whenever I have insomnia, I just come and read the this dumb catty blog and, poof, I'm asleep within a half a minute.

Good, then that means you won't be gracing us with your presence again.