Jim Carrey probably ought to shut up. In enabling Jenny's antivax superstition, he's had a role in actually spreading disease and death. Who's blind?

Rad is right. Jim Carrey has nothing to gain by this idle speculation, and a significant portion of his fan base to piss off with this idiocy.

I have come to really dislike Jim Carrey, not that I was ever really a fan. His GF's a whack-job who is killing kids.

ON the topic, though, maybe Elin wasn't the kind to snoop around till she did know? Do you really want to be the kind of wife who's constantly snooping and checking up, or do you just want to live your life?

Exactly, momoffour. It's a catch 22. We've had debates here where many claim that it's horrible to snoop or check up on your spouse, yet then, when you genuinely don't know, you're labeled a fool or a liar (and by idiots like Carrey who don't even know you!).

If Elin "knew," then why did Tiger call one mistress and beg her to change her phone because his wife was getting suspicious? Being suspicious and KNOWING are two very different things, and, in my experience, these guys are masters at making you feel like you're imagining things and placating your concerns. In fact, it sounds like that's what Tiger had successfully done until Elin actually took his phone while he was sleeping Thanskgiving night and saw the texts and dialed the last number he'd called - Rachel Uchitel. Unfortunately, that's often the only way for a spouse to find out for sure.

I agree with Amy that anyone marrying someone rich and powerful should be on the watch for infidelity, and probably resign themselves to the probablility that they will, at some point, if not many, have to deal with it.

There are exceptions though. Some wealthy, powerful husbands do have the values to resist temptation.

To me, this related to the "hot girl" who always ended up with narcissistic men.

Women are naturally attracted to a rich, powerful, charming, and handsome man, especially if that man seems to be enamored with them.

Watch out for the charmer who sweeps you off your feet. It is likely that they have had a lot of practice.

If a guy, no matter how appealing, finds you immediately irresistible, run!

I imagine that Tiger thought Elin was beautiful. Better yet, as a nanny, she was an expert at raising children. She was dignified and did not seek the limelight; Perfect marriage material. He probably fell in love with the idea of her more than actually loving her.

I don't want to knock rich powerful men. I can say that they do have more options than most men though. I think your odds are a lot better if your man is in love with YOU, not just the idea of you.

Jen, you're so right that the fairytale, prince charming thing is actually a warning sign. If someone falls in love that fast, they're usually capable of falling out of love that fast too...or falling "in love" with someone else that fast. Either way, it's not good.

Caught up in that kind of passionate new love, a lot of these guys truly don't believe they will cheat. They don't get married planning to cheat. They think "this woman is so perfect I'll never need to cheat."

But, you see, that's all about HER, not his core values. If I could offer any advice to women it would be to pay attention to what he says about others and monogamy in general. Is he offended or disappointed when his friends cheat or does he laugh it off or defend the cheater? Does he make comments about monogamy being "unnatural"?

Carrey is actually a good example. These are precisely the kind of comments and justifications you don't want to hear from anyone you'd consider having as a long-term partner.

Even if she wasn't a supermodel, Wood's wife was famously attractive. After a lifetime of intoxicating men by merely walking into a room with them, she might sincerely have believed that fidelity from a sports champion husband was hers for the asking. She needn't have been "blind" for this to happen, she need only have been naive.

> I don't want to knock rich powerful men. I
> can say that they do have more options
> than most men though.

I think if marriages are going to work, everyone has to to choose partners wisely. And there's no blessing –no gift of beauty or talent or brains or money– that can excuse a person from finding and using that wisdom.

> These are precisely the kind of comments
> and justifications you don't want to hear
> from anyone you'd consider having as
> a long-term partner.

That's a bit harsh. Being wrong about this wouldn't be the end of the world. It's easy to imagine marriages where things get out of hand because women are as "blind" as Carrey describes.

I'm not sure Jim Carrey's reasoning for saying that now, but I agree with him. I'm not sure what happened that night that caused whatever happened in that house, but you cannot tell me that he had long term affairs with 15 women and she knew nothing. My own feeling is that he had feelings for Mistress #1 as she's called in the press or at least was professing to have feelings. I don't think Elin was so suprised to find him cheating. I think her surprise was that it wasn't a quick fuck and moving on. Screwing around is one thing. Falling in love with the side piece and talking about leaving the wife is different to a wife who knows just what her rich, powerful athlete husband is doing on his many road trips. Maybe she didn't know about all 15, but c'mon. She had to have her head buried pretty deep to be know nothing.

"I think if marriages are going to work, everyone has to to choose partners wisely. And there's no blessing –no gift of beauty or talent or brains or money– that can excuse a person from finding and using that wisdom."

The problem is how can they find it, at, let's say, age 19, or 21? I think you make a very good point about Elin, Crid. She was young, extremely beautiful, and probably had men pursuing her relentlessly, swearing eternal loyalty, as men often do when they're so infatuated. She was naive enough to believe that her beauty and overall desirability as a wife/mother would keep even the most tempted man faithful.

It's not such an unreasonable theory either. Many guys would have valued her highly - and would still value her - for her beauty, poise, and fertility enough to think before wrecking such a good thing.

Obviously, she chose poorly, but I'm not sure how she could've seen it beforehand. I'm not saying she couldn't have either, but we don't do very much in this culture to dispel the myth of the cinderella courtship. Young, wide-eyed girls don't see the warning signs until it's too late...because most of the warning signs, such as being swept off your feet by a rich, handsome prince, are the very things we program women to want.

Actually, my neice is getting married in a few weeks to a much older, wealthy man (she is 27, he is 45). She is extraodinarily beautiful (strawberry blond, amazing, curvaceous figure). He is ok looking and seems to treat her well. Yet, everything in me sort of screams "wrong move!". My gut tells me, like Jen says, that he loves the IDEA of her, not her. She's a trophy.

But how would I even say that to her? What if I'm wrong? How can I know it's not just my own experiences echoing, and would she even listen to me if I could prove I was right? At this point, she's wrapped up in the cinderella wedding, the whole cinderella story, and it all looks perfect. That's a very tough thing to counteract.

Kristen, she was home taking care of very young children, and he obviously travels a lot. Also, he has a TEAM of people protecting him and his secrets. It's not hard to believe that she didn't know, that she trusted he was going back to his hotel, calling it a night...ALONE. Pretty easy for him to conceal his affairs actually. He has lots of people traveling with him, so a mistress is easy to slip into the group, book into the next room. I mean, he had people DOING this for him - handling the arrangements discreetly.

So, he calls his wife at night, yawning, says a few words to the kids..."Goodnight, I love you"...

She thinks he's going to bed when his fun is just beginning. Unless she surprises him by showing up unnanounced at 2 am (and with all the entourage around him, I doubt that's possible, even for the wife), she couldn't have known.

> is how can they find it, at, let's say,
> age 19, or 21?

Plenty of people do.

> I'm not sure how she could've seen
> it beforehand.

She could have stepped out of her presumption –one which tempts us all– that the world is supposed to be especially hospitable to us on a personal level, and that our most important relationships should somehow require no continuing effort.

She's not grotesquely dumb. She's may not even be the most naive person in her marriage. But when you see the continuing parade of stupidities that her husband and his PR machine are having to march through, you get the sense this is a person without a whole lot of interpersonal brilliance. Mockery from Carrey is the least of it.

Oh, now she's stupid. Like I said, there's a BIG difference between having suspicions and proving them. It seems like she was catching on, so she's not dumb, but with all the people around him, conspiring to conceal what he was doing, she couldn't be sure.

After all, it took YEARS for the reporters traveling with him to catch on. These are journalist trained to dig up a story, yet none of them saw the parade of mistresses? How stupid are they?

Once again, like with Edwards, a rabid tabloid reporter finally saw what his wife and tons of journalists apparently missed. It's not that they're stupid - they were successfully DECEIVED. There's a difference.

In fact, Tiger's team is damned good at it. Nobody talked. They paid off any mistress that insuated she'd talk. They bribed magazines not to run stories putting him in a negative light by threatening to cut off all access to him. He had a very protective team in place to keep everyone in the dark about the true Tiger.

> there's a BIG difference between having
> suspicions and proving them

This isn't about proving things. It's about the judgment brought to selecting someone to raise a family with.

Letterman used to have a joke routine: "This is just an exhibition, not a competition. Please –No wagering!"

The point it not to be right in some smug, confrontational way.

> These are journalist trained to dig up a
> story, yet none of them saw the parade
> of mistresses?

Maybe they didn't care. He's a golfer. And a private citizen. It's not like people are expecting much from pro athletes.

This story is a fun demonstration of hypocrisy for us all, but it's not like any of us were socializing with this couple and can take personal offense at the betrayal.

No, but the story interests us, in a cautionary way, because it demonstrates how hard it is to sum someone up, to judge character, especially when that person is conspiring to conceal. Tiger had such a squeaky clean image, and maybe he was better behaved while his dad was alive. He was a hero to millions of fans and seemed like such a devoted family man. The mistake Elin made in choosing him was a mistake that many women - if not most - would've also made.

Well, he's back for the Masters, isn't he, so his PR machine is still pretty well-oiled. And the latest commercial, where his dad asks what he "learned"? I'm almost repulsed by it, but we're not going to know what, if anything, he learned by getting caught, except that maybe he'll learn to hide it better! Yeah okay I'm being cynical, but still. All it took for him to get back in the game was a public apology. The first day of the Masters, when he came onto the course, not ONE person booed or cat-called. They were all so thrilled to see him! And he smiled a lot more than he had in the past, and even tipped his hat to the crowd. Could be he's learned how to be even more deceptive. Wouldn't that be a hoot!

o.O

nah, LS, those reporters prolly didn't miss anything. They just looked the other way.

People OFTEN look the other way, for various reasons. Those reporters not in the personal circle? Why would they want to dig, and ruin a popular cash cow, based on hearsay? Scandals dont benefit a sports reporter. In his own circle, the same, there are employees, whose livelyhood is based on him continuing to be a well paid golfer. Who are they to question the boss? What his wife knew and why and when, kinda meanigless now. She was surely looking the other way, because if you are suspicious, you have already conceeded the possibility that this is true, and you go from trust to trust but verify. In a personal relationship, that's quite a hit.

Why would she wait till this went public, before confronting him? Why is she staying now? She will never be sure, and if he was cheating with 15?!? other women, he isn't going to stop that. This isn't an accident, this is him. There was no reason for him to marry to start with, and it would have been better if he hadn't, but that is their problem now. Trust is difficult to regain, and resentment is difficult to shed.

Well, I found out my ex was cheating when our son was about 18 months old. I probably would've been more clued in, but I was up half the night, nursing, and tending to my baby.

When a woman is going through pregnancy, nursing, and child care, she's often overwhelmed by that. Her priorities center around the children, not snooping around to find out what (or who) her husband is doing. She's nesting, and she's trusting that he's out there providing for her and the little ones while she's home taking care of them. I don't think she was purposely looking the other way. I think she was very busy, and she trusted him because he put on a good, devoted show when he was with the family.

As for why she's staying, I don't know, but I suspect she believes there's no big rush, and she might as well take her time and think it through. Also, maybe she figures they'll stay officially married, though separated. She may believe that's better for the children than an official divorce, and it would probably be better for both of them financially. The longer she's Mrs Woods, the bigger her settlement will be, so her attitude may be to let him divorce her, which I doubt he wants to do.

"Tiger had such a squeaky clean image, and maybe he was better behaved while his dad was alive."

If I remember from some of the news articles, this was happening during when his father was still alive. He was in bed with a mistress when he got the call his father passed away.

Being a pro athlete at such a young age with many demands would just about leave any child feeling that they are lacking in significant ways. That carries on into adulthood. In some very significant ways. Like proper emotional development.

This is the sad part of what happens to many child athletes (celebrities..etc). They get sexualized before they are mature enough to engage in sexual intimacy. (How many women groupies do you think he got offers of sex from before he was 18 years old?). Most sex addicts have been harmed whether direct/indirect or covert/overt in some way sexually to trigger this particular addiction. Not saying he was molested, I am saying he was sexualized. It's like those creepy adults that tell children (boy or girl) "Wow, you are really gonna have the men/women breaking down your door when your old enough to date..." Eww.

With this, he also had the money and the access to act out on the compulsions that allowed him avoid this reality. He went to great lengths to cover this up which suggests the level of denial he needed to structure up enough to avoid the consequences of his addiction.

To say that he would have behaved better if his father was still alive would be a testament to the enmeshments that may occur from having parental figures live out their own dreams of success through their children. It robs a person of their sense of self. How do they know how to make healthy life choices for themselves if they've had an overly domineering (well meaning or not) parent controlling every aspect of their lives?

Also, a side note, while I don't believe Elin was stupid - I do believe that most persons who are attracted to and settle down with sex addicts are what is known as "love addicts". The Love/Sex addict dance is a weird one and perfectly dysfunctional. I think what gives me that inclination was Elin chasing after Woods with a golf club to kick the crap out of him. A Love addicts greatest fear is abandonment.

"but the story interests us, in a cautionary way, because it demonstrates how hard it is to sum someone up, to judge character, especially when that person is conspiring to conceal."

I don't buy this. It's an unhealthy way to look at any situation.

Feebie, very good summary of what likely went wrong with him. I think he missed his childhood, like Michael Jackson, but he just did a much better job appearing normal for a longer time.

There's something so immature about his texts too. "What are you doing? Are you touching yourself? I want to f--k you" he writes to the 18 yr old neighbor. Or asking his mistresses to detail the kinky stuff they've engaged in. It all sounds like a 13 yr old boy trying to learn about sex.

As for your last comment, I think it upsets people to think they can be deceived like this too. It's so much easier to believe that this can't happen if only you're you're smart or insightful enough. It's actually a very false sense of security people have - that the future can be predicted and that someone's character not only can always be fully assessed but won't change over time.

I think we need to do better in training people to read character signs, and that would certainly prevent many obvious mistakes, but there are certain personalities who can fool even an expert. I don't know if Woods is that way, but he seems to have been, just as in your analysis, living two distinct lives.

"I think we need to do better in training people to read character signs, and that would certainly prevent many obvious mistakes, but there are certain personalities who can fool even an expert."

I hear what you are saying, but I believe that the best way to be sure you do not end up in a less than healthy relationship is to know yourself first. I believe if you are living in such awareness that these red-flag type traits are a lot easier to spot out, no training needed. Bullshit meters will only work if you value your needs and well being over what your desires are for another person in the short-term (quick fix?). It's a choice.

There are such deceptive personalities, but I would imagine they are few and far between...although, I can tell you I've never encountered one of these where my BS meter didn't go off. It was me making "exceptions" or denying that they were there that lead to consequences later on.

To let myself off the hook for that, as troublesome as it can be to admit, would be to continue on this path of ignorance. I don't want to give such persons that power over me.

By the way, while it is possible that Elin could have known her husband was cheating, I don't share Carrey's certainty. I would think that a man with Tiger Woods' resources could have managed it. Plus, as a professional athlete, he has a plausible reason to get out of the house any time he feels like.

Many rich and powerful men do cheat. It is a fact of life, and it truly is a sad fact.

It is hard to tell if a man will be a cheater when we meet him, so I do not know what the answer is.

We as women need to know that it is not our fault. These men will cheat regardless of how beautiful or sexy we are.

Maybe we need to just go for the plain, boring guys. But they may cheat too!

Actually, some reporters discovered things awhile back and Tiger gave an interview to them to keep them quiet. That was reported early on in this scandal. As far as Elin being home raising children, her being home raising kids is far different from your average American housewife. She has nannies and plenty of help. She's hardly the picture of a frenzied new mom with no time to concentrate on things. That's not to fault her for his actions. I just don't buy that she was totally naive to it. I still say what shook her was discovering his declarations of love to someone and not that he was actually out fucking. And with all that said, do you really believe they're working on that marriage now or that after things settle down they will separate and eventually divorce. There's more money in it for her if endorsements are saved which was only happnening by repairing his good guy family image. That's the part I think sucks. Its nobody's business really and they now have to do a PR rehab.

VH1 is running real life Cinderellas.

I wonder how women get these crazy happily- ever-after notions.

"real life Cinderellas"

Oxymoron?

Many rich and powerful men do cheat. It is a fact of life, and it truly is a sad fact.

And many poor guys cheat, too, they just troll different places. That's why we have so many baby daddies.

Maybe we need to just go for the plain, boring guys. But they may cheat too!

Yep. Which means we should all be lesbians.

Only problem with that is women cheat too MonicaP

Only problem with that is women cheat too MonicaP

Yeah, that's true. Celibacy is the only solution.

Not really MonicaP becuase at that point masterbation would be cheating against your vow of celibacy

Foiled again. Rats.

>>nah, LS, those reporters prolly didn't miss anything. They just looked the other way.

They do that, if they think they have a reason.

The journalists knew JFK and Bobby were womanizers, and chose to keep it a secret.

The journalists well knew Clinton was a womanizer, but they wanted him elected, and assumed they could keep wraps on his activities. One journalist whined that they assumed the presidency would mature him. Sounds like a woman who thinks she can change a drunk by marrying him.

When they heard about Monica and the dress, they chose to keep it a secret, but Drudge blew the whistle.

Journalists do things like that, while giving each other awards for great reporting.

How is "Naive" different than "blind"? Either way, you're not seeing what is obvious to the rest of us.

"Obviously, she chose poorly, but I'm not sure how she could've seen it beforehand."

Rich prominent athlete on the road all the time with girls literally throwing themselves at him.
The words "Fucking DUH" are so much an understatement here, that ANYONE who doesn't see it coming had to have grown up in a closet.

Are there men who would resist? Sure. Are there many who could resist temptation like that day after day for years on end? NO.

And lovelysoul, women have been trophies since long before the ships that sent the Greeks after Helen were ever concieved.

Love of course, is what makes him want to keep her around. I wanted my wife for myself first because of her unrivaled beauty, as I pursued her, I came to greatly and deeply love her, enjoy her company, and delight in her exquisite mind, the like of which I've not known since.

Its not that difficult to understand men.

If you want to attract a man, get in shape to do so. If you want him to want to stay the next morning, make yourself into someone interesting.

Put another way:

Your body is why he wants to fuck you.
Your mind is why he wants to keep you.

If she knew, why'd she flip out and attack him with a golf club? Crimes of passion are usually crimes of surprise...

These guys said it best:

http://www.xepisodes.com/southpark/episodes/1401/Sexual-Healing.html

"But how would I even say that to her? What if I'm wrong? How can I know it's not just my own experiences echoing, and would she even listen to me if I could prove I was right? At this point, she's wrapped up in the cinderella wedding, the whole cinderella story, and it all looks perfect. That's a very tough thing to counteract." LS

Better to be wrong and speak up than be right and silent. It would be condescending and negligent not to speak up. You can give her the option of benefiting from your experience. She can decline.

You cannot prove that you're right, but you can share your perspective, share your concerns, ask her some questions that will echo for her and increase the odds that she will focus her attention sooner rather than later on the things she should keep her eyes on.

Her health, happiness, and the prime years of her fertility are at stake. Should she be able to count on you to wave the flag when you sense danger?

"The journalists knew JFK and Bobby were womanizers, and chose to keep it a secret."

Times are different now. There's huge money to be made for selling the story to the tabloids - National Enquirer, TMZ, Radaronline. If any of these journalists knew, they must've had great character not to make a buck off this story (or, most likely, they were paid off). What's more amazing is that so many of these trashy women stayed silent for so long. He must've really strung them along, so they were waiting for the bigger payday.

"Your body is why he wants to fuck you.
Your mind is why he wants to keep you."

I'm impressed by the love you have for your wife, Robert, but unfortunately, that doesn't prevent infidelity in these situations. Wealthy men want to "keep" their wives, while having their cake and eating it too. These guys typically think they should stay married to their smart, beautiful wives, AND have every ho within range...because they're rich! They're entitled. And the sad thing is that so many people agree with them.

It's pretty pathetic the love affair we have with money and fame in this country. People are willing to make excuses for Tiger because he's rich and successful. I guarantee there are people counseling Elin right now to stay with him for the money and lifestyle, despite his obvious narcissism and lack of respect for her...because it looks so pretty...because he "says he's sorry".

They wouldn't advise that if he was poor. It's because he's rich, and most of her female friends, deep down, are envious and think it shouldn't matter - wouldn't matter to them - if he wasn't in love. All they see is the money, but money doesn't buy happiness. Elin deserves a man who truly loves and respects her. She strikes me as a strong woman who genuinely married for love. She could've had her pick of rich, successful men. Even the Swedish golf pro who set them up is upset because he didn't know about Tiger - and he's on the circuit. If anyone should've known it would've been a fellow golfer. I don't see how anyone can blame the wife when even his closest colleagues and most journalists following him didn't know.

I think Elin will take her time being separated (because, right now, Mr. Sex Addict isn't getting any, which is a little revenge for her), but eventually, she'll move on. I hope so.

"Her health, happiness, and the prime years of her fertility are at stake. Should she be able to count on you to wave the flag when you sense danger?"

Oh gosh, Michelle. You're probably right. I was just at a baby shower with her, but there was no good opening to discuss anything like this. In fact, I'm not really close enough to her to bring it up (she's my neice through my ex-marriage). The wedding is weeks away, already planned. I'll honestly admit I don't have the guts to try to ruin a wedding at the last minute. I get along too well with my ex's family. I just hope she's making the right choice.

I don't see how anyone can blame the wife when even his closest colleagues and most journalists following him didn't know.

It's easy to blame the wife. If he was cheating on her, it must have been because she got fat or hairy or neglected his sexual needs. Or because he's rich and powerful, and that's what rich, powerful men do, and she should have expected it. Or if he's poor, that's just what men do, and she should have expected it. She should have seen through every carefully constructed lie well before they got married and called it off then.

If she didn't see it coming, it's because she's naive or stupid or not seeing the signs that were right in her face. If she did happen to notice something amiss and went seeking out proof before detonating her marriage and ripping her children from their father, then she's a snoop who needs to keep her nose out of his affairs, and either take him at his word or leave him. If she leaves her marriage without proof, then she's a frivolous woman who tore her children's lives apart on a speculative hunch.

On the other hand, when a woman cheats on a man, she's a ho who just didn't know what a good thing she had. Poor husband.

"I'm not really close enough to her to bring it up (she's my neice through my ex-marriage). The wedding is weeks away, already planned. I'll honestly admit I don't have the guts to try to ruin a wedding at the last minute. I get along too well with my ex's family. I just hope she's making the right choice." LS

I can see how that would be awkward. Perhaps after the wedding you will have an opportunity to share the benefit of your experience and your concerns. I've been on both sides of that equation, and about half the time it took time for the wisdom of the comments to become apparent, but in every case we had built up trust over the years. Perhaps having a conversation after the wedding (but not at the baby shower) will be less threatening. Good luck.

PS - perhaps a closer member of her family shares your concerns and can approach her in due time. I don't know if you have a way to find that out without peeing in the drinking water, so to speak.

And one last comment: MonicaP, I think you nailed it. Thank you.

Lovelysoul, I'm sure I'll get slammed for what I'm about to say, but its the truth. When I was going to marry my ex, I was young and basically an idiot. As I got closer to the wedding, I knew it was a mistake but felt bad that my parents sunk a small fortune into it. My dad told me in the Rolls Royce on the way to the church I could back out, but by then I was in the Cinderella dress and did not have the emotional strength or maturity to back out. I wish that someone had taken me aside before that day and talked to me. I'm not blaming anyone but myself for my mistake, but I do know that it would have taken one person to tell me it would be ok to have doubts and to not marry someone because the wedding I planned cost a fortune that I probably would have made a different choice. You don't have to tell her she's making a mistake but you can be an ear and sort of let her know you're there no matter what she chooses.

I get a lot of letters from people who knew they were wrong to get married but got sucked up into the momentum of it. You have to be willing to be hated by that person for saying something.

> You have to be willing to be hated by that
> person for saying something.

It pisses me off how every topic we discuss here devolves into a direct, pointed commentary on LS's experience of the world, as if no one could ever feel anything she hasn't felt, consider anything (or anyone) she didn't consider, or respond except as she did, because the whole panorama of human social history spins around her life. There are no policy considerations, there are no social principles, and there are no insights from others, there's just her concrete, unyielding defensiveness about what happened to her... What was done to her by other people.

Pisses me off.

Nonetheless...

In the world of romantic comedies, I always wanted to be the speechless brother who spoke up. (See here at 7:15.)

Amy's right, though. You have to be willing to surrender your friendship to do the right thing. (Especially if you're wrong.)

But if you don't, maybe your friendship isn't that tight anyway.

(But don't do it for the love of Andie McDowell. She's universally regarded as the weakest part of that movie.)

And ——

> it demonstrates how hard it is to sum
> someone up, to judge character, especially
> when that person is conspiring to conceal.

Naw... The happiest marriages don't –from the outside, at least– seem to be ones in which wives (or husbands) are suspicious of concealment... They're the ones where wives and husbands are so attentive to each other's feelings (if not solicitous of those feelings) that the person wouldn't have any need to cheat. Being more small-minded and self-centered is not gonna make things go well. Happily-marrieds aren't trying to "sum someone up" so that they can turn and concentrate on other things. The contract involves continuing responsibilities, and both parties work to deliver the goods.

> It's an unhealthy way to look
> at any situation.

That Feebie, she sees the truth.

> How is "Naive" different than "blind"?

It's a matter of will. Some people don't want to worry about their partner's feelings... And they think that once the contract's been signed, they shouldn't have to. They think saying "But I trusted her!" demonstrates all the necessary good faith. It doesn't.

> Sure. Are there many who could
> resist temptation like that day
> after day for years on end? NO.

Says who? I bet there have been plenty of successful, faithful men.

MonicaP, you really nailed it. As long as we're detailing our pet peeves (sorry, Crid), I get pissed off here when it seems that everything the female does is wrong, but the guy is just being "natural". You really demonstrated so well how that goes.

As for my neice, I didn't mean to make this about me or her. It was just a reference to how easily girls get sucked into the cinderella story.

If she was closer to me, I'd have no problem. We were very close when she was a child, and I know she respects me, but I haven't been around her for many years. She lives quite a distance away.

So, I haven't seen her or her fiance together except once. I have no observations of anything amiss about him that I could share. And, being an "ex" aunt, I'm not invited to the wedding.

Calling her up now and saying, "You know, I just think you might be making a mistake," would seem quite radical. I will take Michelle's advice though and find out if any of her other relatives, such as her mother, have reservations. If they do, I would feel comfortable talking with her about them.

"MonicaP, you really nailed it."

Agree.

It's also worth noting that Elin was is a gorgeous, independently wealthy supermodel. She could have had her pick of any man she wanted to sleep with or marry, and it wouldn't have been hard for her to upgrade to a husband who was more wealthy or successful or basically any quality she might think of. So if the story had instead been that Elin was leaving a heartbroken Tiger for an internet billionaire, you could as easily say "well, Tiger should have seen it coming: men who marry famous, beautiful women should recognize that there's a strong temptation for those women to leave them." Somehow though I doubt that'd be the general consensus.

Yes, but Shannon's point is valid. There is just as much risk for the rich, powerful man to lose his trophy wife as vice versa. Women leave these marriages too. Especially, when there's a big age difference, and the wife is used to being in the company of rich, powerful men, often much younger than her husband and closer to her own age, it's not unusual for the wife to fall in love with another rich, powerful man...or, sometimes, the pool boy.

Yet, we rarely say the guy should've seen it coming because she was too hot or young for him. His marrying her is just natural, sexual attraction, but her marrying him is foolishness.

"Women who got together with a man largely for his money leave if they can take cash with them."

True. And these men should know that too. I have a lot of well-off male friends, most in their 50s and 60s, who can still attract women half their age. Yet, the foolish ones believe this has nothing to do with their financial status - that it's true love. Time and again, they get used and taken, yet they never seem to learn. The myth of the beautiful young woman madly in love with the ugly old man, despite his money, is the male cinderella story.

Her greatest success was child number one and child number two. They cemented her ability to go from a million dollar settlement to a multi-million dollar one. She was a hot nanny who got some modeling gigs on the side. She dated a man who was a known player. Marriage doesn't cure that.

> I get pissed off here when it seems that
> everything the female does is wrong, but
> the guy is just being "natural".

What the guy does is wrong, but it's "natural" too. Listen, Tiger earns zero admiration for sleeping around outside marriage. But his misconduct is so extreme that you'd have to say he didn't build much of a marriage to begin with.... That's not an excuse, I'm just saying. She doesn't seem to be a worldly person who understood how shaky the foundation was.

> There is just as much risk for the rich,
> powerful man to lose his trophy wife as
> vice versa.

They're disposable. He can get another one. He often does.

> The myth of the beautiful young woman madly
> in love with the ugly old man, despite his
> money, is the male cinderella story.

Well, it's not a very popular story... At least the "old" part. There are (ahem) lots of old guys who want some young tail, but I've never heard a bunch of aging guys daydreaming about getting a beautiful young WIFE.

"There are (ahem) lots of old guys who want some young tail, but I've never heard a bunch of aging guys daydreaming about getting a beautiful young WIFE."

They do if it's the best way to get the tail. Plus, men are territorial. If they score a really hot chick, half their age, who's giving them great sex, they don't wanna share her with other guys. The thought of letting her stay single, and possibly losing her to someone else, is often too tough for all but the smartest of them to bear.

Plus, as we age, most of us want to believe in true love and find someone to settled down with who will be there till the end. Guys feel this way too....they're just often as stupid about it as women are.

Sometimes, I just want to say, "Not to be harsh, but look at her and look at you....do you really think this is going to last?"

There are (ahem) lots of old guys who want some young tail, but I've never heard a bunch of aging guys daydreaming about getting a beautiful young WIFE

Happened to my aunt's husband. He married my aunt, 30+ years his junior. It really bit him in the ass when she had a brain aneurysm at 43. Now he's 93 and helping her bathe, but not in a sexy way.

"I will take Michelle's advice though and find out if any of her other relatives, such as her mother, have reservations. If they do, I would feel comfortable talking with her about them." LS

May it go well for all, in the long run. I gave the advice from the experience of having been at both ends of the conversation. Each time, the person on the receiving end said, essentially, "thanks for your concern, but I don't see the problem," and went forward with the relationship. And each time, later said, "now I see what you were talking about." All couples are still happily, constructively married, with those red-flag issues pointedly and satisfactorily resolved.

Jim Carrey is telling the truth, much as many women don't like to hear it, truth hurts eh. Extremely wealthy, good-looking men fool around --- basically universally, and *everybody* knows it, and Elin knew it too, it's part of what you're getting yourself into, it's part of the trade for marrying into such a high-status wealthy lifestyle. Please, nobody can claim to be so naive that they really expect those men at the top they marry are going to be totally faithful.

Of course, if women ever admitted they knew this, the whole system of alimony under which they could be entitled (in cases like Tiger's) enormous sums of money would collapse, so naturally women are never going to admit this openly.

"Women who got together with a man largely for his money leave if they can take cash with them."

Precisely. And that's also why you'll never hear a woman like Elin admit that they 'knew the score' in advance, as it would form a foundation to challenge the legal basis of a fidelity clause in a pre-nup. She has to maintain the image of being surprised and devastated.

"Obviously, she chose poorly"

Yeah, she chose so "poorly" that she gets to live a lifestyle so incredible that even few royalty in the history of humanity have come close ... never has to work, famous, waited on hand and foot by servants, fabulously rich, and all off the back of her husband's incredible dedication and hard work to his career ... if only the rest of us could have such awful lives and make such awful choices. I'm crying crocodile tears for her, I tell you.

"There are (ahem) lots of old guys who want some young tail, but I've never heard a bunch of aging guys daydreaming about getting a beautiful young WIFE"

Only because it's been sufficiently demonized by society to admit it - you can bet many men *think* it secretly. And I know many who think it openly, and one or two who are even living it. Call me shallow but if I find myself old and alone someday you can bet I'd take a young wife if I can find one over an old one. (Still, she would definitely have to have a brain and at least be relatively mentally mature.)

No, not every rich, successful man cheats. Phil Mickelson, for instance, obviously loves his wife. Unlike Tiger, he took a year off to be with her when they faced a crisis - her battle with cancer - and there's never been any allegations of infidelity. He makes almost as much money as Tiger.

Plain and simple, some people have values and some don't. Some were raised better than others and don't find a life of lying appealing no matter how much money they make or how easily they could get away with it. Just as they don't steal, they don't cheat because it's wrong.

Sure, if you discuss an open marriage ahead of time, that's one thing. Maybe some of these wives do know, but the vast majority would not agree to that, even for the lifestyle. A young and beautiful woman, like Elin, knows she can find a better rich guy than a serial cheater. This was not the "deal" she wanted to cut.

The only women I've known who openly, or tacidly, accepted cheating in exchange for the lifestyle were middle-aged wives who discovered it after marriage, but by then, were too comfortable or entangled because of their families that they decided to put up with it rather than divorce. But these are generally pretty bitter, unhappy women. Ultimately, designer clothes and handbags don't make up for not having a loving spouse.

If we accept that all rich, powerful men cheat, then we have to accept that all men are aching to cheat on their wives and on girlfriends -- and would, if given enough money and freedom.

Question for the men here, the men in happy relationships: If your wife/gf is making you happy, would you cheat anyway just because you could?

I stop short of saying "all" men, rich/powerful or not. *Certainly* there are men (and women) of solid principles, even amongst the rich. But I suspect that for the very rich/powerful, it must be a very high percentage who stray regularly --- I would wager at least 90%. We like to believe peoples' ethics are more solid than they are but in reality morality is both a combination of principles and opportunity. Most men are not going to admit their secret desires/thoughts because it's pointless to do so --- they know they'll never have the opportunities rich men do, and admitting the truth can only hurt their relationships with their wives/girlfriends. (Actually I also think these things apply to women, but women have a much, much higher threshold of relative attractiveness, so statistically it almost never plays out; I've seen even a "very faithful" girlfriend (of a friend) turn to mush and cheat right in front of her boyfriend with a famous celebrity visiting a bar they were in.)

Now I'm a pretty principled guy. I probably wouldn't cheat, even if I was very rich. But when it comes down to it, that's probably because I know I'm a terrible liar and could never hide such a thing. Therefore the prudent and rational choice is to maintain fidelity.

"Most men are not going to admit their secret desires/thoughts because it's pointless to do so."

I'm curious why almost every conversation about monogamy brings out this kind of statement from guys. Do you really think we women don't know you'd like to screw other women besides us? We get it! We understand we're not the ONLY woman you think about, and, guess what, we'd like to screw other guys sometimes too.

Of course, you shouldn't share every fantasy you have about other people. Nor should we. That's just being respectful to your partner. We all edit our comments, so I don't understand why men feel so burdened with not sharing these secret desires.

"I'm curious why almost every conversation about monogamy brings out this kind of statement from guys."

Note the context: I was only responding to MonicaP's "Question for the men here". I was answering a question, not volunteering a statement randomly.

"Do you really think we women don't know you'd like to screw other women besides us? We get it! We understand we're not the ONLY woman you think about"

Actually you'd be surprised how many women in relationships seem to be convinced their boyfriends/husbands should be attracted to only them exclusively. Not all women are realistic.

I didn't realize that, Lobster. I thought most women understood. They may not want to hear about it, but surely, most aren't so naive as to believe their guy doesn't ever fanatasize about others.

I've just never heard a woman complain about this, like saying, "I can't really tell him about how I have the hots for my co-worker. What's the point? He just wouldn't understand."

It's not like we don't fantasize. We simply don't think we should tell you. If guys ask, women will usually deny it and act like you're the only man we think about to spare your feelings (and prevent your jealousy). Maybe that's why they get mad if you're too honest with us. It violates the hidden code of etiquette we follow.

MonicaP: Question for the men here, the men in happy relationships: If your wife/gf is making you happy, would you cheat anyway just because you could?

No. It's simply not worth it. You'd have to a totally hardened asshole to cheat and think that there wasn't going to be some kind of psychic price to pay. Which in turn will put a strain on the relationship and erode at the good thing you had.

You can be in an established and healthy relationship and see someone that makes you think, "Day-um!" but it's not worth breaking up a good thing, that likely took months or years to develop into what it is.

> It really bit him in the ass when she
> had a brain aneurysm at 43

As tragedies go, that one's kinda funny.

> Yeah, she chose so "poorly" that she gets
> to live a lifestyle so incredible that even few
> royalty in the history of humanity have come close

And her naivete is being mocked with a global reach and an electric speed that few in history could have dreamt of, either. Hence this blog post. I mean, Amy says she was a nanny. Would you or I ever have heard of her or the outcome of her marriage in earlier centuries?

No. It's simply not worth it.

Thank you. And this is why I don't buy that all men would cheat if only they had the money and the access to pussy. The decent men I know who are happy in their relationships admire a nice ass as much as anyone, but they understand consequences.

Right, MonicaP. I like your question because it really puts it into perspective. The same kind of question could be asked about stealing. If you knew you could get away with it, would you steal?

Certainly some would, but I'd rather believe, like someone's store owner father here said, that MOST people are honest.

Cheating takes a lot of lying and sneaking around. A truly decent person can't do that, no matter how tempting.

I'll confess that I cheated once long ago. It was more of a revenge cheat, but that doesn't make it any less terrible. But what I learned about myself is that I'm not a cheater. I immediately went home afterwards and confessed. I knew I didn't have what it takes to lie like that, and I felt guilty for years afterwards.

So, when I look at someone like Woods, I understand what it took for him to live a life of deceit...what kind of deficit of character he must have to pull it off, lying to those who love him, not once, but so many times. He may be one of the richest men on the planet, but he is a morally banckrupt person.

I'm not sure that I agree with you, LS, that cheaters are always morally bankrupt people. A bigger part may be that there are expectations put on people that they cannot always live up to. I'm not excusing Tiger Woods, but I will say that I wouldn't trade places with him for all the money in the world. We are all human and yes he did benefit from a certain public image, but its also that much harder for a person in his position to fall. 15 mistresses is more than a mistake but there are different pressures in that life than many of us will ever have to deal with.

On a smaller scale, I watched it with my brother. He is one of the nicest people in the world and would do anything for you. He is miserable in his marriage. His wife hates him and can't even stomach being around him. They present a perfect unified picture in public though. Its not healthy how they live for them or their kids. I know he's cheated and I'm sure he must be starved for some kind of human affection and contact. I'm sure she's just as starved. He stays because he's worried about the perceptions of the community should this what appears to be perfect family break up. He is not a morally bankrupt person. He's someone who feels trapped in a life that makes him miserable. I sympathize with him and his wife and couldn't even imagine that on a Tiger Woods scale.

Again,I'm not justifying Tiger's actions, but I think throwing stones doesn't fix the situation. Maybe learning something it to help other people avoid those mistakes would be a better way. We've always been judmental as a society and I don't think that its gotten us in a better place.

Kristen, I didn't mean to imply cheaters were always morally bankcrupt. Obviously, there are cases like your brother where cheating is (almost) understandable. But a serial cheater like Tiger is usually a narcissist. Other men handle the same pressures of fame without cheating.

Rather than cheating, your brother should really try to get counseling and make things better with his wife, and if that fails, then he should leave before having more affairs. He sounds like a decent person with a conscience, and the lying and sneaking around, no matter how justified it is in his mind, is going eat him up emotionally.

It's also bad for the kids to be in such a toxic environment. They may be too young now to know what's going on, but ultimately, kids are very perceptive and it's likely one of his affairs will come to light, and then they'll think he is the horrible one in the marriage. Better for him to get out now and lead an ethical life.

LS, I wish my brother and his wife would get therapy or divorced. I agree that its toxic for those kids living like that. They have tried therapy a few times but she eventually decided that he is completely the problem and refuses to go. I have told him that leaving would be better for all involved but he has a huge fear of what people would think. Its emotional weakness and fear. And I'm not saying he's right to cheat but I do understand why he does it which is sort of my point about Tiger. He probably is a narcissist but since I don't know him personally I do wonder how much of it has to do with the pressures of that lifestyle. Even now, the NIKE ad is of his father asking him what he learned. It seems to all be the public mea culpa. How much of it is real? Maybe he was miserable with his wife and wanted to leave but knew that it would be a public relations disaster. Maybe they had an agreement and he took it too far. None of us really know. All I do know is that 99% of the things being said about me when I left my husband were not true. Thankfully I didn't have people selling stories, texts, or anything else of mine to the highest bidder nor did I have paparazzi hiding in my bushes or trying to catch the latest no make-up picture or any of that other crap going on. It does make me feel for them even when they fuck up.

In the world of romantic comedies, I always wanted to be the speechless brother who spoke up.

A great movie moment!

But don't do it for the love of Andie McDowell. She's universally regarded as the weakest part of that movie.

True. But the Andie MacDowell of Groundhog Day is a different story. For her love, yeah, do it!

Point taken... For an actress who was known as not really being an actress, she some good projects in that decade. And to be fair, with moments like "Is it raining, I hadn't noticed", it's not like the FW&F script was giving her much to work with.

I kind of liked that line. A sappy line for a sentimental moment.

I think her job throughout the movie was mostly to stand around looking beautiful, which she did well.

> I kind of liked that line

Blecchhhh... P'tooie.... I spit upon that dialogue. Hell, MacDowell almost spat it out herself.

The movie had already deployed a huge number of clunky lines, usually forgiven because we knew where they were going anyway, or they were delivered so deftly that they deserved to be excused (e.g., "Haven't you hurt her ENOUGH??!", 8:50). But by the rain scene, we had a right to know what was really going on with this character, and why it wasn't going on for her earlier in the film.

Listen, MacDowell's gorgeous. I saw her on the street once, at this Starbucks. I was was walking out with my Grande joe, and there was this brunnette coming from the west in nicely-fitting blue jeans. And she was getting more attractive with every step. So I straightened my posture and squared my jaw and tried to step into my new then-new Mazda (moon roof! cassette AND cd!) with some extra swagger... But it turned out it was Andie MacDowell, who wasn't impressed. She grinned at me, but you could tell she does that for everybody. Lovely woman.

But still, she's not a magical presence in the film, even visually. The most striking thing about the character is the steel with which she approaches –and then makes distance from– our hero when they fuck.

We gotta remember, it was a British feature. Maybe they cast a flat-vibed American in the seemingly pivotal role to remind people that this particular piece of movie magic did NOT come from Hollywood.

But still, she's not a magical presence in the film, even visually.

Generally, I'd have to agree. Have you ever seen "Crush?" I had the misfortune to sit through a half-hour of it. With a movie that awful, Andie had nothing to hide behind, and boy, did it show. Then, again, she's visual magic in SL&V.

The only scene of hers I remember from that was pounding the earring with the vacuum cleaner. The sister (Italian actress) was more fun to the look at. And the husband's scene of muttered, self-pitying remorse late in the story is the only acting that comes to mind.

The revelation of that movie may just have been the director.

The sister was cute, but MacDowell looked terrific. I rewatched it recently and didn't much care for it, but I enjoyed watching her.

The director - yes, one of the few to do well with an Elmore Leonard movie.

I think Jim Carrey is right. How do you miss 3 years worth of cheating. :-(