I demand societal change so that I am considered hotter!!!

Hey, that was fun! However, I don't expect to get paid for it.

Sadly, the inevitable corollary to this is that the only writers who hold this position are those who are not "hot" enough to do any good in the first place.

If they could have 'gotten their man' with their looks, they would not be feminist authors in the first place.

Shame on y'all talking about Ellen Goodmannish and Maureen Dowdy that way.

This pretty much sums up American feminism. Any longer it's almost entirely focused on this sort of adolescent BS. I'd swear that 80% of the content of Feminist blogs is devoted to complaining about TV commercials and magazine spreads. The pressing issue of the day is apparently whether it's PC for actresses' pictures to be airbrushed. I'm not kidding.

I don't see men whining that they have to earn a living and be somebody to get chicks. It's women (of a certain kind) who feel entitled to complain about the requirements for getting a man. And I think this thinking has pervaded the culture -- that what's inside is all that matters. What's inside of course matters -- but if you'd ever like somebody to get to know that part of you, you should do your best to avoid being a woman resembling Ernest Borgnine, etc.

Amy--a question for you: How long is it morally necessary to continue to look beautiful and perfect? I've been assiduously preserving my looks for years with exercise, diet, clean living, skin care, gray hair dye, and cute stylish clothes. I don't fool myself that I look dramatically younger but I do look good for my age. You don't get to keep your looks--no one does, not with any amount of plastic surgery and diet. Look at Madonna. Aging is the happy result of not dying tragically young. I certainly don't think anyone should find middle-aged women hotter than young ones, that would be plain crazy ... but I do find myself a little weary of jumping up on the beauty pageant stage every day. That doesn't mean I want to let myself go, as they say, but that as I get older I would like to focus more energy on other things. So how long do we gals have to present perfect, flawless exteriors?

So how long do we gals have to present perfect, flawless exteriors? - L

For as long as you want anything aside from mundane meaningless coversation from a man.

The Flip side of your question L is how long should men work to provide resorces that they dont need for themselves.

And it has the same answer

Two related articles:

http://www.prospect.org/cs/articles?article=beauty_myths

And:

http://www.doublex.com/blog/xxfactor/beauty-standards-backlash

By the always amusing Amanda Marcotte.

PS Ovid's advice for young ladies: "Let not your armpits reek of wild goat, nor your legs bristle with harsh hair."

There is a recent development in gene research that suggests that only half of all men who have ever survived to sexual maturity passed on their genes, whereas almost all sexually mature women did. In crude terms, women find the less desirable half of the male population unfuckable.

I suggest that a woman who complains about having to maintain her appearance for a man should feel lucky that she held on to a fuckable man for as long as she did. Now that she is losing in the mating game instead of winning, she should retire gracefully. Or perhaps set her sights on a man of lower social status who won't complain that she's let herself go. Maybe a homeless man.

I don't see men whining that they have to earn a living and be somebody to get chicks.

There is a contingent of men who do this, they're just not as prominent as these women. You'll encounter them on forums where gender issues are discussed. They're typically the same ones going on about Alpha males, and how all women are whores.

When you get to the heart of these complaints, by either men or women, what they actually want is to compel the other sex to find them attractive. Accordingly men shouldn't have any discretion in who they're physically attractive to, and women shouldn't be able to select men based on their resources and status. Of course, the author's preferred gender can be as picky as they want to be.

The problem with "what's inside", when you are talking about these particular types of women, is that it's every bit as ugly as what's outside. I still shudder when I think about the one blind date I had with a leftist lawyer. She showed up for our date wearing a severe business suit (it really made her look like an overweight man), and she spent the entire date talking about who she wanted to sue and how she was going to use the courts to alter the world to her specifications. The one time that I questioned her, I got the "you're a lay person, you can't possibly understand anything about law" patronizing speech.

It doesn't take that much effort to be presentable. Be clean, comb your hair, shave your legs, brush your teeth and stay in reasonable shape. And wear clothes that fit properly.

My husband and I were talking about women who spend hours in the bathroom, and the men who complain about it. He said: "If you don't find her attractive without two hours in the bathroom, maybe you shouldn't be with her."

For men, the women I know aren't looking for millionaires, although I'm sure they wouldn't kick Warbucks out of bed for eating crackers. They want men who don't have a ton of debt, and have stable work histories with salaries that allow for a reasonable standard of living. When I divorced, money was important to me in that I no longer wanted to carry the full financial load of a guy who wouldn't work for a living. A man who could pay his own bills was very attractive, because poverty sucks.

As I understand Amy's response, women don't GET to retire, even if they have aged out of being seen as sexually viable. They still have to desperately pretend to be hot young things long past the point of ridiculousness. This strikes me as a very California attitude. I am Southern, which means I understand perfectly well the importance of maintaining an attractive feminine appearance. Unlike your modern feminist, I don't question the virtue and benefit of looking good. I could not possibly leave the house with chipped toenail polish, let alone hairy legs, and I am not wearing ugly frumpy clothes for any reason. I guess my point is this: no matter how much effort I put into my looks, I will not get anything near the kind of attention I got when I was younger. That's okay with me. I had my day in the sun, and there are other worthwhile things in this life. Beauty is known to be ephemeral, which is why it is prized.

I'm pretty sure that luljp would not have the time of day for me even when I look my best, since he only acknowledges the extremely youthful and sexy. I must say, though, that I have had pleasant conversations with men for whom I'm pretty sure I'm too old. It's clear they class me with their mothers, yet mysteriously this does not cause them to contemptuously reject me, as lujlp would. I sort of assumed that it was BECAUSE they felt no attraction that they felt free to converse.

For the record, I have a man. I'm not interested in attracting the attention of any others, but I do plan to hang on to his. Nobody has to teach a Southern gal how to do that.

Tyler, there is another development in gene research. One hundred percent of our parents passed on their genes...

So the moral of the story, kids, is that you might be a loser, but your parents are all winners.

I don't think I'm cut out to be a lifestyle coach.

Also, provider ability is NOT ephemeral, so although it shares the same level of importance to women that youth and beauty do to men, I don't think the two can be perfectly equated. One expires, the other doesn't. To little old Southern me this reflects the role of men and women in the world, but most modern Americans don't think women are truly less valuable because their most desirable trait has a shelf life.

I would hate to think that y'all would class me with the dreadful harridans who whine that the beauty pageant nature of life as a woman is unfair; it isn't fair, but I don't have an argument with reality. Maybe I just wonder if that's ALL there is to reality. The general consensus here, and Amy's stated view, is YES. If you're a woman, your looks and fertility are all you ever had to offer the world, and when they go, you may as well kill yourself.

This might well be the grim truth, but I'm not quite ready to die.

That seems very overly dramatic Amy! Oh, and I know scores of men who conplain on a regular bases that they have to work and "keep the money flowing" and most of the people I know (late 20's to early 30's) the woman works too and also pays the bills.

L, I think you're being a little dramatic with that last line. No one is saying that you should kill yourself when your looks start to fade, or that physical beauty is all women have to offer the world.

I think the point here is just to take care of yourself, which it seems you do. Of course that isn't all there is to reality. ou could not bathe for a month and still be a great person, it's just that no one will know. If you want to stop your beauty ragimine, go for it...just don't complain when some men treat you a little differently.

Apologies for all the spelling errors. I spilled coffee on my keyboard yesterday and forgot to proof read. Oopsie.

> Oopsie.

Well God Dammit, DON'T LET IT HAPPEN AGAIN!

Now, Tyler 10:28am and Mike 10:52am really hit some sweet spots.

And in that spirit, I'd like to send people to one of the finest blog posts of all time: Why we're nice to women.

You'll find it aligns neatly with Tyler's thoughts and with this good, short piece by Denis Dutton.

I think L and Amy may be using different definitions of "letting yourself go." There's a difference between getting comfortable enough in a relationship that you gain 40 pounds, and getting comfortable enough that you get your hair highlighted every 12 weeks instead of 6 or deciding that you can do your nails at home instead of a salon.

I agree with this:

"And when you are on the dating market, figure out how much of a beauty routine you're willing to put up with for a lifetime, and only go that far. It's bad faith to sell a guy on your looking a certain way only to let it go the moment the last "I do" is uttered."

...but it cuts both ways. If you want to date/marry a hot girl, no fair calling her shallow for spending time and money on maintaining her appearance. I think a lot of guys say they want a woman who is low-maintenance, not realizing that low-maintenance women tend to look like the feminist journalists we were talking about earlier.

L, as Kimmy says above, I think you're overdoing it, too. I don't think anyone is saying a woman should strive to look 20 years old when she's in her 40s or 50s. That's silly. People age, looks change. At my age (I'm 45), I find myself much more attracted to women close to my age who take good care of themselves than I am to 21-year-old sylphs. Really.

That Marcotte piece Amy linked (in the comments) has a brilliant passage:

Of course, one could point out that all these older beauty standards have been turned into newer, more oppressive ones that require you to take all the artifice of old and make it your actual body. Those padded underwire bras that haunted my adolescence have given way to breast implants, which basically put the padding and lifting into your chest. Hated pantyhose has turned into complete body deforestation....

But that Goldberg woman makes my flesh crawl.

Except, that, out of my anecdotal small sample, the hottest women aren't the ones with the best husbands.

The ones with the best husbands are the nerdy ones who went to Harvard and MIT, because they got to meet those guys, who are usually pretty cool, chill people. Also, the hot chicks maybe underestimated how awesome the nerdy guys truly are until it was too late.

That said, some of my hot friends are happily married. Just not more so than my goofy-looking ones. But none of my friends are hideously ugly, and all of them groom.

I'm 44 today. My body no longer allows me to deforest on a regular basis. I haven't worn pantyhose since I was 18. I finally gave up on mascara about 10 years ago. Do I look like a hag? Nope. DH was going on about how good I look with cleavage showing, even if the crepe has been creeping in. I suppose he has a vested interest in how I look since he has to go out in public with me. Yes, there are times he tells me I've gone a little far in 'letting myself go', and I listen.

Now, I am a firm believer in the evils of make-up and plastic surgery, but not so I look hotter. Cuz I'm never gonna look as hot as I did at 18. But I still have to question why the hours-long beauty rituals? You have to have the heart first. The rest is all framing. So, if you have the heart, go ahead with the rituals. Don't bother if you're just a lump of coal inside, the gilt frame will only make you look that much sillier.

It was Rush Limbaugh who wrote:

"Feminism was established to allow unattractive women easier access to the mainstream of society."

Sailer's Law is the Journalist Corollary.

L, you've got your man?

The POINT is, you might try looking well for him. Not as some kind of pageant... If you are aging with someone, you both change together, they can be comefortable with who you are trying to be. After all, they are the ones that know what you look like without the makeup. You say, you know how to keep your man, and if that is so, YOU WIN.

There are a lot of people out there that are surprised when they gain that first 100# that suddenly their mate isn't as frisky anymore, and decry the unfairness of it all. Sometimes they just don't care if their mate is frisky or not, because they aren't interested in their mate either.

This stuff isn't an absolute. But the extremes are simple. If you have 3 closets of clothes you never wear anymore, because you'd rather wear sweats all the time... When your husband is smiling at the waitress because she actually treats him nicely... when you fail to notice that your partner hasn't bothered you for snuggles in months... don't be surprised when it's over.

No doubt there is a litany of things the ladies could say about deadbeat husbands as well, I dunno that stuff, because I've never been that. they can say more.

This is so much more about TRYING and attitude. I have no illusions that some sweet young thing is going to throw herself at me as an old guy, unless I win the lottery. And if one did, I'd be immediately suspicious about what they are attracted to. But when I see someone with curves in the right places, it lights up my brain as designed. EVEN IF, she isn't slender like she was when she was a kid, even if her face shows that she's already lived half her life. If she is trying, what do I care about that other stuff? I'm no Brad Pitt, or whatever the boy dujour is these days, but I try. That expectation cuts both ways.

This is so much more about TRYING and attitude.

I think you nailed it all here. Taking care of yourself says you are still in the game, and that you still consider your partner worth the trouble of wooing.

I'm not as hot as I was 10 years ago. I'm hotter than I'll be in 10 years. In the end, I know my husband wants to build a life with me and will accept that I'm going to get wrinkly and gray saggy, but he will appreciate my effort to not let it all go.

L exaggerates a bit:
As I understand Amy's response, women don't GET to retire, even if they have aged out of being seen as sexually viable. They still have to desperately pretend to be hot young things long past the point of ridiculousness.
- - - - - - - - - - -
1) No, that is not what she said. The old "mother of the bride who tries to look like a bridesmaid" is hideous.

There is an age-appropriate, self-respecting way to care for one's appearance. Amy's reference to French women is very germane here.

After the 30s increasing numbers of women can no longer coast on youthful skin and metabolism. Effort is necessary.

(to be fair, this is when male baldness and pot bellies begin as well)

The effort is offset by the comfort of developing a personal style. The result is often much more alluring - to males of the same age bracket - as teeny-bopper, trend-chasing fashions of the young.

Notice that "males of the same age bracket" bit.
Which leads us to:

2) If we're addressing that post-30s woman in this thread, there are 2 conversations going on:

- If you're married, don't let yourself go to seed.

- If you're a no-longer-young divorcee or widow, find an age-appropriate way to look your best.

Neither of these suggestions is demeaning, nor does it lead to "competing with a beauty queens".

Amy, you dye your eyelashes? I've never heard of that. Ya learn something new every day. How is that actually done without getting it in your eyes?

I get alot of insight on this from my Paraguayan girlfriend. Being a latina, she realizes that she needs to look good for her man every single day. She cannot believe how out of shape, unfit, and generally unkept many American women are. She also notices that most of the really bad ones, the ones with the pear-shaped bodies, mousy hair, wal-mart t-shirts, size 50 sweatpants, and flip flops are all single. What does that tell you?

How hard is it to take care of yourself and put on some nice clothes? Bathe? Shave the legs?

Geez, its like once you get a guy you give up. If your guy does not get fed properly at home he will eat out.

Don't let yourself go, give you guy plenty of attention, and he will repay you in triplicate and treat you like a goddess.

Of course, that can go the other way too!!

American women tend to let themselves go. They're notorious for it. Ask women from the southern countries, or europe, if you don't believe me.

Not everyone of course, certain regional and ethnic groups still try to age gracefully. But your average middle to upper middle class white woman seems fall off a cliff after about 35, many sooner than that.

I don't necessarily blame feminism for this. I suspect that an excessive emphasis on youthfulness causes a lot of women to just give up. They're never going to look like they're 21 again, so why make themselves crazy trying. But there's also the never-do-anything-to-please-a-man ethic that's popular in certain quarters. That doesn't help either, because it makes them feel guilty for caring.

I suspect that an excessive emphasis on youthfulness causes a lot of women to just give up. ... That doesn't help either, because it makes them feel guilty for caring.

It's the super-mommy phase. Super mommies spend all their free time thinking and doing for their kids. If she misses a moment of her child's life to run around the block a few times and get her nails done, then clearly she doesn't love her child.

Sadly, I think alot of it also may have something to do with income. And I don't mean that lower income means poorer food and more weight gain. What I mean is this:

I live in the most expensive school district in Missouri, in a little area that has some apartments and condos surrounded my gargantuan houses. You should see all the mothers there: every one is skinny. Now, you drive a mile east and you get your typical, average american woman body.

I call where I live "trophy mommy heaven", although it is safe to assume that there is not just some magical gene pool that all of these rich Doctors and Attorneys tapped for wives. My point is that about 90% of these women stay home all day, work out, have personal trainers and whatever...in other words, they have all the fitness money can buy.

So, looking closer, you see that there is not ONE single parent bringing their child to school at our school unless they live in the apartment area I live in. So, no divorces.

Conclusion: It would seem that the spouses bring home so much money that 1)women can make more money staying married than divorcing, 2) there is more incentive to stay in shape or your rich hubby may boot your fat ass out the door.

Or, I could be completely wrong. Perhaps by some miracle this small suburb is just full of couples that are totally satisfied being married to eachother and could not be happier. Kind of like the Stepford Wives.

How old are these women Mike?

Most of the wives of very wealthy professionals in my area appear to be in their late twenties and early thirties. They're still young enough that it's easy to look the way they do. A lot of these women are second wives for their husbands, who are often 10 or more years older.

I forget which movie I heard this line but two fellows were talking and one said to the other, "Is it just my imagination or do many young women these days complain about guys checking them out?"

His buddy responded, "Just wait until they get older and no men look at them any longer. That's when their complaints will turn into sadness."

Elay, I'm confused. You said. "I'm 44 today. My body no longer allows me to deforest on a regular basis."

I'm exactly your age, and at a loss to figure out why your body "wouldn't allow you" to deforest on a regular basis. What gives? I don't particularly enjoy shaving and waxing, but my body is every bit as able to be shaved and waxed as it was at 18.

Huh?

I think some of the lack of motivation lies with the relationship. Guys are used to saying "aww no honey you'd don't look fat" because they know their woman will blow up and be unreasonable about it. It's hard for women to hear that they need to lose weight and to maintain their standard of beauty, and it's hard for men to tell women that.

When I complain to my boyfriend that I feel fat, my hair is frizzy, whatever, and that I need to do something about it, he dutifully tells me that I look beautiful and I don't need to do anything. What a sweet guy. He also tells me he hates makeup and perfume and he wants a low-maintenance girl, but I like mascara. I feel pretty with it. It would be so easy to just listen to him and continue in the same vein (although frizzy hair is the bane of my existence) but I know, partially because of my own dissatisfaction, and partially because I spent a year reading Amy's blog, that it's important to keep myself up and to not become complacent.

Goodness gracious! My wife looks nice five days in seven, easily enough for me. Maybe she's just lucky to have a man who married her for her mind, but on the other hand, obsession with one's physical appearance is a classic symptom of Narcissism. For example:

www.ehow.com/how_8674030_girlfriend-narcissist.html

Men who date and marry such women suffer.
Children born to such women suffer.

This is what comes to mind when I regard this thread. And on the basis of what she's written here, if I weren't married, I'd go out with L.