Gore-ing Apart
Why call it quits after a decade of marriage, CNN.com asks in the wake of Al and Tipper Gore's announcement that they are divorcing?
There's a tendency to overvalue tenure. I'm not for people divorcing when their kids are growing up (due to the extreme negative effects on children of non-intact families) But, people grow apart. Staying together on the pretense they haven't is pretty wasteful and anti-life.
From the CNN.com piece:
Break-ups among long-term married couples -- who have invested 30, 40 or more years into a relationship -- is an uncommon phenomenon compared to the skyrocketing divorce rates among naive newlyweds or parents overwhelmed with children, marriage experts say. But the number of long-term relationships headed toward separation -- like the Gores -- is becoming more frequent with longer life spans and a growing acceptability of divorce, they say."Staying in exactly the right relationship to one another is a very hard thing to maintain every decade," said Pepper Schwartz, professor of sociology at the University of Washington. "People think you only get closer over time, but that's not necessarily true."
I'm guessing the Gores are probably parting as friends, and can appreciate the good years they had together. Nothing lasts forever. Pretending it does doesn't make it so.
Well, I udnerstand why your say that - but I don't agree that people simply "grow apart." Whether people realize it or not, they foten push others away and ignore family. It's not a passive thing, but rather a choice people make when they decide they want to focus on work, or social life, or hobbies. Marriage can last as long as you will for it to be so. It didn't "just happen" one day, and like any relationship, will only survive as long as you choose to invest in it.
Patrick at June 2, 2010 9:23 AM
> Nothing lasts forever.
Oh, don't be that pompous, you're just not that worldly. PLENTY of marriages last forever, including, indisputably, the best ones. That this might have happened to you or me is no excuse for grandiose cynicism.
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at June 2, 2010 9:51 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2010/06/02/goreing_apart.html#comment-1720342">comment from Crid [CridComment at gmail]> Nothing lasts forever. Oh, don't be that pompous, you're just not that worldly.
We all die, mountains crumble, etc.
Amy Alkon at June 2, 2010 10:00 AM
And more to the point, none of the analysis has of yet considered this thoughtfully... Though I've yet to visit the right-side blogs this morning. (The Weekly Standard crew is probably going to draw some blood.) The New York Times noted the irony of the Gore divorce and the continuing Clinton union, and also mentioned the Spitzers.
But one bit of speculation I've not seen in print yet: While Al & Tipper are two of the thickest, most narcissistic, robotic and conniving spirits who ever moved through American polity, eventually even THEY realized that they were married to an asshole.
Or something like that. I hate those people.
And I VOTED for Al Gore!
(Once.)
Next time you're over at some lefty's house for a party, after he brings you a glass of white when you asked for red, and his wife introduces you to some pipsqueak child of divorce after promising that you'd meet someone exciting to date, take a moment to settle into the couch, and pick up that pristine copy of An Inconvenient Truth from the coffee table. (Be sure and set down your glass of wine first, so you're free to cackle.) Flip through the photos, and find the ones of the Loving Gore Marriage in Big Comfy Sweaters, in which these cuddling shitheels pretend, baselessly, to be exemplars of loving, sustainable Americans, our Proudest Children of the New Frontier.
I hate those people.
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at June 2, 2010 10:09 AM
"people grow apart"
- - - - - - - - - - -
In most cases people REMAIN apart - they never do the work of truly bonding. As long as there are shared goals like child rearing and asset accumulation, the marriage lasts.
But the work of caring about the other person and wanting for them what they want for themselves... not done.
So when the common goals are achieved, the "team" is revealed to be 2 individuals.
Jewish symbolism for 3 levels of harmonious relationships: The River, the Kettle, the Bird.
The River:
- that which unites us, separates us. This is the relationship between buyer and seller - both want a deal, but have opposed goals in the deal.
The Kettle:
- put food in water, it rots.
- put it in fire, it burns.
Put it in a KETTLE full of water OVER a fire - the result is tasty.
The kettle unites the disparate qualities of the fire and water for a common goal. Most successful marriages make it to this level. But the fire and water are still different/separate in essence - the couple remains "apart" as described above. Only the common goal unites them.
The Bird:
- every bird on earth can do at least 2 things: fly/swim/walk. But how the bird walks or swims is influenced by the fact that they are also built to fly.
This is the highest level - disparate abilities and qualities inseparably combined into one, new thing. This is the ultimate goal of marriage - and takes hard work.
Ben-David at June 2, 2010 10:14 AM
I can't stand either one, starting back in the 80s when both were hated by the Left (and I was a young leftie). But it still makes me sad.
I wonder if someday we'll just have marriage contracts with expiration dates, as posited by A.C. Clarke, and we just choose to renew them or not.
plutosdad at June 2, 2010 10:22 AM
Might NOT have happened, etc. Work with me, this is a moment to savor.
By the way, speaking of the Clintons, here's a quiz:
How many years has it been, roughly, since Bill saw Hillary naked?
[A.] 12 (1998) — The Monica Lewinsky Scandal
Here's a photo from January 4th, 1998, hours before it hit the fan.
[B.] 18 (1992) — The Gennifer Flowers Scandal
Hillary used to wear her hair like this, too.
[C.] 30 (1980) — The birth of their daughter.
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at June 2, 2010 10:30 AM
The marriage wasn't sustainable and lacked renewable energy.
lsomber at June 2, 2010 10:32 AM
Crid and I don't agree often, but he does make me laugh. I have to go clean my coffee off my keyboard!
Kristen at June 2, 2010 10:50 AM
>>Jewish symbolism for 3 levels of harmonious relationships: The River, the Kettle, the Bird...
Normally I am partial to symbolic truths from the ancients.
But - and no offense - the tale of the river, kettle & bird is a right clunker, Ben-David!
Jody Tresidder at June 2, 2010 10:52 AM
"The marriage wasn't sustainable and lacked renewable energy."
Or perhaps it was inconvenient?
Pirate Jo at June 2, 2010 11:24 AM
"Ah, tipper come on, ain't you been getting it on?"
Apparently not.
smurfy at June 2, 2010 11:48 AM
Remember Tipper and the Parents Music Resource Center?
I think everything was fine in their marriage until Al came home and saw the Wu-Tang Clan tour bus idling outside his house expelling CO2 into the air. He went charging in and found Tipper having a seminar with the whole group.
Whereupon Tipper said, "It's an inconvenient truth Al, but your chad just hangs there."
alittlesense at June 2, 2010 11:56 AM
It doesn't have to last forever, just a lifetime.
I don't know if Al is a pompous fake, or a sincere blowhard, and I'm not a fan of Tipper either, but I'm sorry for both of them. What are the odds that either will find someone who will love them for being them?
MarkD at June 2, 2010 12:40 PM
c'mon Crid, tell us how you really feel. ;)
I disagree with them on various things, but I don't wish them ill-will, or to have things come apart... it's sad after all that time that they are no longer compatible.
SwissArmyD at June 2, 2010 1:14 PM
No mistress in Argentina.
No love child.
No deleted texts.
No golf club attacks in the driveway.
No squalid Enquirer expose.
No "wide stance."
God, even the drama in Al Gore's life is boring.
How many since he wanted to? And I don't say that as a dig at Hillary, but at Bill.
Conan the Grammarian at June 2, 2010 1:16 PM
Funny, even the marriages that stay together (Bill and Hillary) are deemed inadequate from the cheap seats. Tough crowd. Makes me wonder exactly what a marriage has to be to be considered successful.
MonicaP at June 2, 2010 1:21 PM
> deemed inadequate from the cheap seats.
Oh, fuck that. I think I've paid DEARLY for the power these assholes has acquired by depicting themselves as loving personalities.
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at June 2, 2010 1:29 PM
Seems Bill and Hillary got exactly what they wanted out of marriage, if I read them correctly. They are a power couple. They got power. People get married for all kinds of weird reasons. A few years ago, I talked my sister out of getting married for health insurance.
Marriage is a legal contract. Some people want out. Doesn't mean the marriage was a failure. It just means it ended.
MonicaP at June 2, 2010 1:34 PM
> Doesn't mean the marriage was a failure.
For me, those marriages were failures: They brought stupidity, debt and disrepute to my nation.
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at June 2, 2010 2:02 PM
We would all be better off if married people stayed married -- unless there is a REALLY good reason to end it. "Growing apart" is NOT a good reason. That which grows apart can, with time, grow together again. I feel sorry for the Gores' grandkids, and for their kids, even if they are grown. I am 53, and it would still hurt if my parents (now happily married for 65 years) divorced.
"Marriage is a contract."
Bullshit -- not if you swore solemn/sacred (take your pick) VOWS!
What do we think "vow" means nowadays?
Jay R at June 2, 2010 2:05 PM
-Crid
Now that is an exquisite bit of liberal trolling. The flamey-responses about Bush being colossally stupid, Clinton running surpluses that were squandered by Bush, and the Iraq war, torture and Gitmo bringing far more disrepute to our nation than Clinton's cock ever could practically write themselves. Nice work.
Christopher at June 2, 2010 2:18 PM
Gee, I guess they're not "Joined at the Heart" anymore. Frankly, I think that term "grown apart" just means "you really are getting on my nerves and I don't think I like you anymore".
Pricklypear at June 2, 2010 2:36 PM
>>Marriage is a legal contract. Some people want out. Doesn't mean the marriage was a failure. It just means it ended.
Nicely put, MonicaP.
I had no idea some people would turn so frail over what appears to be the reasonably civilized parting by the Gores!
I very much liked Amy's take: "Staying together on the pretense they haven't is pretty wasteful and anti-life."
Here's a pertinent link for Life After A Late Divorce.
You enter a number - and find out what other people have achieved for the first time at that age.
http://www.museumofconceptualart.com/accomplished/
Jody Tresidder at June 2, 2010 2:50 PM
Marriage is so much more than simply a legal contract. Else why get married at all?
In the sense that a marriage is supposed to be for life (like gerbil mating), a divorce is a failure. Perhaps not a total failure or even that major a failure if amicably ended. But the fact is the union for life ended before a life did. You can walk away whistling and remember the good times, but you'll still be carrying the baggage of a divorce (and all that entails).
Conan the Grammarian at June 2, 2010 3:14 PM
If I was a cynical as Crid, I would say that the big problem between the Gores is that the whole carbon credit global ponzi scheme that Al cooked up is about ready to come crashing down and Tipper wants to get out of it with her share of the loot before she becomes an unindicted co-conspirator. On the other hand, if I were Tipper I would have been gone years ago after I realized that there was no room in his life for anything other than Al's religion. (global warmism)
Speaking as a woman who has been married 29 years and has grown kids, my husband and I have been growing apart in our main focus in life but we find a few things we enjoy doing together and try and make time to do those things. Loving someone and being able to live with them are sometimes two seperate things. I have difficulty sleeping at night and being in the same room with my husband tends to leave me sleep short as he comes to bed late and then gets up early. A sense of loyalty ought to keep most people married. If my husband ever becomes seriously ill I would not meet my own ethical standards even as a good friend, if I was not there to take care of him. Isabel.
Isabel1130 at June 2, 2010 3:34 PM
To be perfectly honest, all that went through my head was...
If only Al Gore wasn't so obsessed with trying to catch manbearpig, it might have worked out.
Cat at June 2, 2010 3:41 PM
"In the sense that a marriage is supposed to be for life (like gerbil mating), a divorce is a failure"
In very few places and cultures in the world has marriage ever been for life. That is a romatic ideal and reality has almost never lived up to it. The majority of marriages in history have either been polygamous with women treated essentially as disposable property or political alliances that would change as quickly as the wind blew. When people lived an average of thrity years and the death rate for women in childbirth was atronomical, few people had to contemplate being married to the same person for more than 10 or 15 years. In my opinion, a divorce or even a marriage is a failure when it leaves one or both parties and childern dependent on the taxpayers. Other than that, it is none of my damn business. Isabel
Isabel1130 at June 2, 2010 4:02 PM
Oh, look - Christopher can use the Two Wrongs fallacy!
Radwaste at June 2, 2010 5:37 PM
> flamey-responses about Bush being colossally stupid
Here we go... It's you-know-who's fault! I can hear you now... Your eyes awash in salty, salty tears, your posture a crippled sculpture of hurt and resentment, your voice cracking in torment—
Don't you understand? Boosh taught the children how to hate...!
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at June 2, 2010 6:47 PM
> the whole carbon credit global ponzi scheme
> that Al cooked up is about ready to come crashing
> down and Tipper wants to get out of it with her
> share of the loot
Heya, that's some handsome theorizin'! Sumbuddy write that down... From "Isabel".
We promise you'll get your payout if it comes to pass. We run an honest table in this casino, and your wager is early and sterling. Amy's site is promptly cached in Google nowadays... You can't be cheated.
> If my husband ever becomes seriously ill I
> would not meet my own ethical standards
> even as a good friend, if I was not there
> to take care of him.
I adore this woman. I really do. Listen, if he DOES die tragically and suddenly in the days ahead, and you need a casual sex fling, I want you to think of me, OK? Only if, but still.
(What? WHAT? Too soon? Oh... He hasn't even sneezed yet? OK, I take it back.)
> In my opinion, a divorce or even a marriage
> is a failure when it leaves one or both parties
> and childern dependent on the taxpayers.
Good as far as it goes, but divorce can also maim children's souls, even when their financial needs and apparent emotional needs are tended in the moment.
Divorce with kids is just not cool. Maybe foresight can't eradicate it, but it's apparent that we haven't even been trying.
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at June 2, 2010 7:03 PM
This is a Dennis Miller quote that I have always loved:
As for the Gore's -- It was probably over somewhere just after he lost to Bush and the realization that there was no way he was ever going to hold public office again. They just waited for the "cooling down" period so both could get out gracefully.
Jim P. at June 2, 2010 7:45 PM
Hey, sorry folks. Wasn't trying to start a tiresome Bush-Clinton "who sux more" post; was trying to make a joke about that.
Christopher at June 2, 2010 9:42 PM
> Wasn't trying to start a tiresome Bush-
> Clinton "who sux more" post
Of course you were.
The Gores and Clintons both used government resources as private playthings.
Hillary parked her oft- subpoena'd but never-indicted little brother in the basement of the White House for the duration of her husband's terms, where he was fed many, many cheeseburgers at taxpayer expense.
During the above-mentioned Parents Music Resource Center debacle, Tipper's husband was convinced to let her and a bunch of her Senator's-wife friends conduct bogus
"hearings" in senate chambers with all the trimmings... Green tablecloths, sound systems, a fucking GAVEL, and, of course, lots of press recording the event from the back of the room. It was one of the most tasteless things I've ever seen out of DC, and you know how fierce the competition can be.
Two short entries from some very large volumes of misconduct, works still being written. We can talk about all the larger, policy-based implications of these people's public service any time you want. But in matters large and small, public and private, in the way they touched and influenced the lives of voters (and others) in all respects, these are horrible people who demeaned the American project every time they could, so long as there was something in it for them.
The Bush administration had problems too.
But it's trans-cosmically preposterous for you to pretend the wretchedness of these couples was all within Bill Clinton's dick, as if you're just too sexually sophisticated for the little people to understand.
M'kay? Thanks for stopping in.
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at June 2, 2010 11:03 PM
Crid, you misread me.
When I read your post taking the Clinton legacy in vain, my first expectation was that it would prod some liberal poster to trot out chapter and verse of the Bush administration's evils (the two-wrongs fallacy mentioned above), since that's how I've seen more liberal types respond to these things go on other blogs. But that isn't where I was going.
I'm a fan of neither the Clintons (& Gores) nor the Bushes. I think they've all failed our country in different ways, but all of them left us worse than they found us – with our regrettable enabling. But Bush appears to be married to a decent woman whom he loves (and who loves him), so in the context of this thread he's doing better than either.
Christopher at June 2, 2010 11:21 PM
Bush appears to be married to a decent woman whom he loves (and who loves him)
Have you seen the tabloid covers recently? They're all on about Laura wanting a divorce.
Rex Little at June 3, 2010 12:04 AM
> I think they've all failed our country in different
> ways, but all of them left us worse than they
> found us – with our regrettable enabling.
Absolutely.
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at June 3, 2010 12:05 AM
OK, rereading, I see what Christopher was getting at.
But liberals troll themselves... They're auto-trolling. It's a circuitous mentality....
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at June 3, 2010 12:40 AM
"but divorce can also maim children's souls"
ugh...drama queen much. Still don't buy what you're preaching Crid but it's nice to see you holding on to your simple ideas.
Karen at June 3, 2010 5:14 AM
Bullshit -- not if you swore solemn/sacred (take your pick) VOWS!
What people vow before their God is none of my business, and if God has a problem with their divorce, I assume he will take care of the matter himself. Marriage is a legal contract, and sometimes people make it a religious one, too. Their children are grown, and they owe the rest of us nothing as far as their relationship is concerned.
MonicaP at June 3, 2010 6:57 AM
"Have you seen the tabloid covers recently?"
Thank heavens, no. I think the last time I looked, Hillary was going to have a Martian baby. Does anyone know if it was a boy or a girl?
MarkD at June 3, 2010 7:20 AM
>>Good as far as it goes, but divorce can also maim children's souls, even when their financial needs and apparent emotional needs are tended in the moment.
For crying out loud, Crid!
You appear to want to regard all children of divorce as deeply damaged - no matter what!
The expert Amy linked here, & quoted at length, just the other day, [http://www.athealth.com/consumer/disorders/childrendivorce.html] doesn't agree.
From Amy's link:
"It is important to note that while divorce increases children's risk for a variety of problems, not all children who experience divorce have problems. Children of divorce are twice as likely as children living in nondivorced families to experience difficulties. Roughly 20% to 25% of these children will have problems. Another way of saying this is that 75% to 80% will not experience these difficulties. In other words, while children of divorce are at greater risk, most will not have major problems."
Jody Tresidder at June 3, 2010 7:40 AM
> they owe the rest of us nothing as far as
> their relationship is concerned.
They owe us the sufferance of our sharpest mockery, and I intend to deliver the goods. I hate those people.
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at June 3, 2010 12:19 PM
Another reminder of the dear old story: a couple in their 90s comes before a judge and asks for a divorce. "How long have you been married?" asks the judge. "75 years" they reply. "And why are you divorcing now?" "We wanted to wait till the children were all dead."
Steve H at June 3, 2010 1:01 PM
Or in the case of the Gores, their political careers were dead.
(Meeee-yowwww! How's life on the board of Apple® Incorporated, Al?)
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at June 3, 2010 2:22 PM
It's fun to imagine that some people read these comments dispassionately, look for patterns, and consider them without defensiveness. And yet again (again in this very thread!), we see maybe the ugliest mentality of our age, presented through an instantaneous, almost thermonuclear reflex: Divorce is not a problem! Divorce is GOOD! When someone says divorce is wrong and hurtful, they must be challenged!
In two hundred years, Americans will look back on us with the same befuddled shame with which we regard our slaveholding forefathers. There'll be the same incomprehension of our willingness/eagerness to inflict tragedy upon those who can't defend themselves... With the horrific wrinkle that the enslaved are our dearest, our progeny.
People seem to think human nature has changed drastically in recent decades... Same fingers, same toes and same opposable thumbs as our great-great-great grandfathers... But somehow, there's no way we could again experience mass foolishness as we have so recently and so tragically.
In olden days, the chatter on the street went like this:
• Well OF COURSE the Africans are supposed to work without freedom. It's a plain fact of nature that the Negros are a lesser grade of being, not even human really, more beast than man. They're obviously incapable of forethought or genuine reflection. I'll grant you [says this oh-so-reasonable Mississippi burgher] that they ARE suffering under that lash, but no more than do the other creatures of our farm, the horses and burros, which must also be reminded to earn their grain. If you can't understand this, then I'm afraid you're blind of the nature's cruel but immutable order.
Today, it goes like this:
• Well of COURSE it's better for kids [age unspecified] to go through a divorce than to watch their parents bicker all the time. After all, adults DO GROW APART, and that's just part of life. You never know how you're going to feel about someone in a few years, do you? Lots of kids aren't bothered by this at all... In fact, many are GRATEFUL when their parents divorce!.. Because after all, their parents are going to misbehave, no matter what. They're only children anyway, so their suffering is not a big deal. This is just the way it works, and if you don't accept it, then I think you're not seeing the world as it is.
It's a familiar melody, y'know?
I don't know where to go on the internet this afternoon to see an uglier comment than Karen's—
> ugh...drama queen much
She leads the way with teenage sarcasm and deprecation... But that's just the calling card. Underneath is the (unspoken!) presumption that no, children's souls are NOT maimed... She just can't find the words to say so. Like I said, this is an instantaneous reflex for our culture, and she knows she's got the wind at her back, so why not use this discussion of the pain of others to lob some insults (and offer nothing else)?
> For crying out loud, Crid!
Don't shout... It's clumsy.
> You appear to want to
You're dangerously, dangerously close to translating again, as if you'll insist on making me the enemy you want to fight, instead of the one fate's set before you. For a few months it seemed you'd gotten out of that habit. And now you're backsliding. And honestly, that just breaks my heart, Jody.
> to regard all children of
> divorce as deeply damaged
You're lowballing the argument, straw-manning. How did "can also" become "all children"?
Here's a secret: Most drunk drivers get home OK... No flaming freeway catastrophes, no incursions onto sidewalks to frighten pedestrians, no dented mailboxes, not even any legal trouble. So can I take your son out for a drunk drive tonight?
I wish I could push this metaphor a little further, about how much of an asshole the drunk driver is going to be to whatever family awaits him at home. But the point is that all this risk is unnecessary. The fatal accidents, pissed pedestrians, broken mailboxes, all of it.
Same with the kids. For a blessed few, parental divorce will be a bad weekend, or even a gentle adjustment. For some it will a genuine tragedy, one from which they'll recover such that adult friends won't know the difference. Some will suffer consequences throughout their own lives and into the next generations, and some will flame out quickly through alcohol or whatever.
But the point is that when you consider figures like these, MOST OF THIS PAIN IS GRATUITOUS. It's just not possible that child-rearing is supposed to be going that badly for so many. Jody, you needn't amp up the imaginary rhetorical consequences to a universal apocalypse of supporating wounds... Given these numbers, it might well be enough to say divorce is unpleasant.
(I'm really learning to love that link. It quashes so many arguments. Here, let's use it again:)
> The expert Amy linked here
"Expertise" means little with such a huge field of samples to consider... Everyone reading these word knows people, probably dozens of people, described in those charts. We've seen with our own eyes how divorce fucks people up, whether for the school boards, the human resources departments, or the young adult who loses control at the Christmas party. And if you want to do dueling experts, I'll meet you at the corral at high noon.
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at June 3, 2010 2:29 PM
Hello everyone,
It rather daunting to post here----I've read many excellent comments as well as the caustic ones made towards those who may disagree with us. I'll take a chance anyway.
I married when I was young----in my twenties. The values I had then were the ones indoctrinated into me from childhood until adulthood by school, church, and family. Most of these I absorbed without realizing I did so.
Over the last 6 years I've taken time to reassess many ideas I thought were virtues. Many of them were self-denying to the point of creating depression and/or frustration when I adhered to them. Other culturally trained values created a perfectionistic and harsh attitude towards myself. Thank God(no offense Amy), those days are for the most part, over.
As I've become more comfortable with myself and my values I no longer mindlessly comply with values that deny my likes, dislikes, dreams and choices.
The man that existed when I married in my twenties no longer exists. No man stands in the same river twice. Abuse I more clearly recognize. I'm happier now because I have my voice. I can disagree while still being agreeable. I can say my no as gently as my yes.
By divorcing I didn't fail. I simply saw from a practical and emotional perspective my marriage was over. Divorce simply recognized what had happened to the relationship with my ex-wife, legally. An unsuccessful marriage is more like a slow leak than a blowout. The result of calling quits was tough on the whole familly. It was costly, both emotionally and legally. But I would have done it 10 years sooner if I knew what I know now. For twenty 20 years I was married.
More gracious and patient I am now, than before my marriage and divorce. I'm happier. I'm wiser as a result of what I've gone through maritally. That's not failure. I'm glad I'm done kicking myself when things don't go the way I want. "Condemning my imperfections has never enhanced my appreciation of life nor has it helped me to love myself more."
Life is learning to move forward, enjoying today, moving into the future unencumbered by the weight of ancient emotions and unpleasant memories from the past.
Thanks for listening.
Paul NorthernCA at June 3, 2010 3:35 PM
> Thanks for listening.
Anyone mind if I rip this man's beating heart from his chest and stomp it like a crackling cockroach? Let me know...
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at June 3, 2010 3:42 PM
>>Some will suffer consequences throughout their own lives and into the next generations, and some will flame out quickly through alcohol or whatever.
Yeah, but the experts say most won't, Crid.
I'm not quite getting why you're sure this particular expert of Amy's is wrong?
Is he a stupid liar or something?
All you've done is just repeat your opinion that only a blessed few escape the 'maimed soul' thing when their parents divorce.
You say you know better because: "We've seen with our own eyes how divorce fucks people up, whether for the school boards, the human resources departments, or the young adult who loses control at the Christmas party."
How do you know the Xmas party screw-up is the result of the young adult's parents' lousy divorce?
Jody Tresidder at June 3, 2010 4:01 PM
Crid, you're too funny. LOL What the problem? I didn't engage you too much?
Paul NorthernCA at June 3, 2010 4:03 PM
> the experts say most won't
You can't take this point, can you? SOME WILL. Some will be fucking devastated, almost all will be wounded, AND IT'S UNNECESSARY.
> Is he a stupid liar or something?
Yes.
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at June 3, 2010 4:15 PM
As long as you're happier, that's all that matters. But I notice that you don't mention if anyone else in the family is happier.
Conan the Grammarian at June 3, 2010 4:47 PM
Luv yoo, Conester.
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at June 3, 2010 4:56 PM
It may uncommon for them to divorce after that long, but separate lives is not uncommon. Lots of my friends parents either live apart-long term and happily-or live together but basically separate. Not many nonwealthy people are willing to split the retirement income. It lowers the standard of living at a time when it's not likely to be reearned. My best friend's mom got a job in germany and left her retired husband stateside.
momof4 at June 4, 2010 7:25 AM
Conan,
There's never a good reason to stay in a relationship with an abusive person. My ex-wife is psychotic. If we don't take care of ourselves nobody else will.
Are you asking me if I believe happiness is the basis for my decision? No, it isn't. Taking care of my family and providing an emotionally healthy environment for my sons and myself was and is. The courts agreed and gave me custody of them.
My sons are happier and emotionally safer with the present arrangement. They're still tramatized by the ongoingly self-seeking behavior of their mom and her need to control them. In later years they told me they wished I left her sooner. I waited 10 years before I did. My ex's father told me he was amazed that I didn't divorce his daughter sooner, he would have. And she was his favorite child. (He discovered more about her adult character when she moved into his place after our separation.)
I'm expressing my own point of view here when I say sarcasm can be a tragic form of expressing my needs. When I use sarcasm, guilt, shame, blame, fear or judgment it usually makes the other person angry. It normally alienates the person I'm talking to. Or it causes them to freeze. The needs beneath my comments aren't met. There's no open, healthy communication, respect or emotional safety between us.
I find communicating with others is more successful if I express my needs and make my requests with courtesy, kindness and respect. I don't ask others to agree with this view, but it's mine. It's also that of those who practice Nonviolent Communication. (Check out Marshall Rosenberg or BayNVC.org)
Everyone have a great weekend!
Paul NorthernCA at June 4, 2010 9:53 AM
> If we don't take care of ourselves
> nobody else will.
The kids understand that, right? They've been told in so many words?
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at June 4, 2010 10:14 AM
From an article by Stephanie Coontz:
"Although men are more likely to instigate a divorce when they have another partner in sight, women are more likely to say they just couldn't stand to be with 'this' partner any more"...(which is what I think "grown apart" really means).
And this paragraph:
"It's no longer enough for the other partner to be a good provider or a good housekeeper. We want marriage to include friendship, sexual satisfaction and an interesting give-and-take between equals."
Finally:
"Let's take this as a lesson to stop working so hard in our marriages and spend more time playing in them."
Hallelujah!
Pricklypear at June 4, 2010 12:18 PM
"(Meeee-yowwww! How's life on the board of Apple® Incorporated, Al?)"
I imagine it's pretty damned sweet, looking at Apple's performance. Now they've sold their two-millionth iPad, too. You might recall I predicted that.
Radwaste at June 5, 2010 4:04 AM
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