Aww, come on. The kiddo just wanted a little vino! Some cheese to go with their whines.

I wish the eatery well in their battle against the HRC. Odds are not in their favor.

It sounds, from the quotes of the story above, as if they are trying to back peddle on their original position.

A misunderstanding? It was the restaurants fault that they couldn't accomdate strollers and they didn't have changing tables?

Stand firm on this one guys! Or forever be a doormat.

John... grow a pair and support Sylvia on this one. She was right to reject the baby. There is no reason to apologize or to be "torn up by this". You did the right thing.

...and another thing that puzzles me... since when did bringing your baby to somebodies private wine bar become a "human right"?

There seems to be a growing guilt about using babysitters. I always looked forward to a night out, with the kids staying home, but now, parents seem to feel guilty about this and take their babies everywhere. Maybe it's because of the excessive molestation and abduction fears?

No, its because people feel no compunction at all about imposing their little whelps on everyone else.

They get to be their kids' bestest buddies. They don't have to deal with kids whining about being left home with "her".

It's not fear, it's just that everything is all about them, and the kids are just another fashion accessory.

I totally agree. Kudos to them! I'm a mom of a 5 and an 8 year old. When I'm with them, we go to kid appropriate places! Even then, if my kids start going nuts we're going to leave. I know I don't want to hear kids screaming, I can't imagine anyone else wants to!

@lovelysoul, I don't think it's about parents having fears, though maybe in some cases. I tend to think more parents today are too busy trying to be their kids best friends and making everything an all inclusive experience where nobody gets left behind.

In the town where I live, in the past year, we've had a few incidents where supposed-adults have knowingly let their kids have booze with their friends. The parents were even present at these parties and should have been supervising, but instead chose to either pretend not to see it, or may have even condoned it in some of the cases. Tragedies ensued. One teen died at one party. At another, a middle school girl passed out drunk gets abused by a group of boys and parents never checked on them once over a few hours. And we're talking about college educated, professionals for parents.

I see a problem where parents are too busy wanting to be liked by their kids. Parents want to treat their kids as their peers at times.

They don't grasp the concept that babies shouldn't be brought to bars, that a few dozen thirteen-year-old's need parental supervision on New Years Eve, or that their high-school-aged kids and friends should not be having parent sponsored keggers. Parenting is not a popularity contest people! It's about setting age-appropriate limits and teaching your kids how to become responsible adults!

I'm also going to go over the top with my opinions and say that this has to do with the way many parents have been brought up themselves. Many parents today grew up in an environment where they were given everything that want and allowed to do whatever made them feel good. "Who needs to be limited by societal mores? Just ignore people who scowling at you. Express yourself. If other people don't like what you're doing, they can ignore you or go somewhere else." Right?

These idiot parents mentioned in the article above get off thinking that the appropriate response to being told they can't do something is to take it to a human rights commission. Whine whine whine. "I was denied pleasure by this restaurant that rejected my beautiful child. How dare they!"

Patrons of this restaurant should counter-sue for their right to eat out at a restaurant/bar without having to endure the disturbance caused by a uncivilized 15lb barbarian that screams, spits up and defecates in public, while the rest of the patrons are trying to eat a nice meal.

I can remember my Mother having a bed and breakfast for many years. Children & Pets welcome. Then after a few incidences where children damaged things and parents didn't want to pay, or where you watched the children's personal safety at risk because the parents weren't paying attention, and all the demands so little "Pierce" could be happy....my Mother changed the rules. Pets Welcome. Children are not. This seemed obscene to many, but my Mother sticks by the fact that no dog ever cost her personally thousands of dollars for damages, but "cute" little children who are being poorly parented have.

When are parents going to get a clue that when you choose to breed you tear up your 'fun card' for at least 18 years.
You can't/shouldn't be going to places and doing all the things you did when child free.

I am sick to death of kids ruining my good time in public places. Parents who bring their babies and toddlers to high-end restaurants when the brats should be home sleeping. The crying and fussing are intolerable.

I would support more restaurants who put their foot down. Because face it...the parents of today know no bounds, they are rude, selfish and in sensitive. This should put the establishments in postition of teaching them a lesson. Back in the day, people just knew this stuff and parents followed common sense courtesy rules. Kids had their place and that was that. Hell, parents didn't want the buggers around 24/7, hence babysitters. Now...all bets off.
Parents drag the spawn everywhere and nap times, routines and discipline be damned. They are so enamoured with the product of their loins. They honestly think 2 year olds are going to glean experiences out of trip to Paris. They think every sound that utters from widdle Tanner's lips is pwecious.

American kids are loud, loud, loud. No self restraint taught in anything. Shrieking, screaming, LOUD TALKING WITH NO INSIDE VOICE, banging on tables, constant repetition (mommy,mommy, mommy, mommy, mommy...)begging, whining. And parents, listen up: even if you find the high pitched, squeals of your baby a happy sound, it's still like knitting needles to the eardrums for rest of us, ok? It's disturbing the peace. Other patrons are paying pretty penny to eat and drink. And don't tell the rest of us to like it or lump it. If there was one friggin' place in this city I could go to escape kids, trust me I would. No place is safe.

What is it about these children that makes them so discontented, so petulant, so crabby? I notice it all the time out and about. Kids doing that low grade whining, always either on verge of a meltdown or in middle of one. While the parent either ignores behavior or is frantic to appease. (Because the kid knows his power.)

I digress. Kudos to any establishment that makes it clear children are not welcome. Bring back adult only time and places. Because the parents are taking over. Vote with your wallet folks.

If I ever open a restaurant, I'm going to call it "21". As in, that is how old you must be to walk through the door.

Guess what, lady: The feminists were wrong. Sadly, tragically, you cannot "have it all"

____________________

Um, who exactly said that, besides Michelob?

I have little doubt that the ENEMIES of feminists like to claim feminists said that.

And regarding "not when it means making the rest of us put up with it all": I don't remember any self-described feminist arguing that it's anti-feminist to demand that crying children be kept out of quiet venues. Rude people, certainly. (When a certain mother was told she couldn't take her baby into a classical music concert, she had the nerve to compare that to the Jim Crow Laws.) This is about society's distorted image of CHILDREN'S rights, as I see it. After all, we wouldn't put up with severely disabled ADULTS who yell at such "quiet" concerts.

I have no problem with people bringing their infants into restaurants BUT expect them to take said infant outside at the first noise uttered.

Amy, my wife is cracking up and grateful that there is someone else out there like her. I love reading your blog out loud to her.

lenona...there was a lawsuit not to long ago wherein a woman being paid over 100k per year took TWO periods of maternity leave over a five year period, which together totaled as I recall...18 months therabouts. She sued because she stopped getting plum assignments, and said it had become kind of a boys club.

This woman was surprised that the company frowned on the idea of paying a woman to do nothing for the company for nearly a two year period. Having it all, was clearly her idea.

Companies are not permitted to ask about plans for child bearing because it is discriminatory, because it is not considered relevant to a hiring decision that a woman might decide to stop working for months at a time. Whose idea was that?

The military came under fire for starting to punish female soldiers who got PREGNANT ON DEPLOYMENT TO A WARZONE! What attitude does that sound like to YOU?

Never been in a movie theater or restaurant where the parent(s) ignore the screeching child and are oblivious to the distraction it is causing to others? What attitude is THAT?

There was an occasion, I think it was in the House of Representatives, where a session had to stop while a female rep was looking for her child during the session, after the little one had wandered off. Another rep found the kid and she wrote this sappy little piece about people on opposite sides coming together over children.

It apparently never occured to the stupid bitch that MAYBE...just MAYBE...children did not BELONG wandering around a governing body's floor during session.

Don't feed me any shit about "feminists never said"...it sure as fuck wasn't a "cowboy" who was saying any of that shit was a good fucking idea.

You tell me what other ideological or philosophical body suggests or promotes any of that. I'll tell you what...its feminism and its supporters and nobody else.

I'm 100% with Mark in that the wine bar owners should stand up for themselves against this ridiculous, selfish couple. But what American readers probably don't appreciate is how scary & overwhelming it is to be taken through the process with Canada's despicable "human rights" commissions.

The plaintiffs will not have to expend one cent as all of their legal costs will be paid for by the government. But the defendants will have to cover all of their own legal costs and will not be eligible to sue anyone to get them back.

No one has better covered Canada's dirty little secret than Ezra Levant, a lawyer & political activist in Alberta. You can view part of his book here.

It's not just feminists who "want it all and then some". I've heard girly girls who've been treated like princesses all their lives and expect it to continue. The same one who want to be handled with kid gloves AND and be given plum assignments.
I'm on neither end of the spectrum.
No one should expect all of the benefits and none of the negatives when they make choices, whether it's having children, getting married, working long hours, staying single, etc.
Learn to take the crap along with the good, and stop whining for God's sake. I learned it when I was 5. What were your parents doing?

Wow! This is such a touchy subject! As a young mom who has never sued anyone for my choice to become a parent and who has also felt isolated in my choice, I'd like to offer some common sense advice. Don't worry, it doesn't involve eating at Chili's. I'm kind of a foodie, so I like trying out new places. Some of these spots have bars, like this one BBQ spot that I love near the beach! A restaurant has to meet three criteria before I take my son 1.)It has to be kind of noisy 2.) It has to be casual attire 3)the bar and dining area have to be somewhat seperate. I might enjoy a beer while I'm at the gastropub, but if my eleven y.o. is with me, it certainly wont be at the bar. However, there have been times when I couldn't pass up visiting some chi chi spots while on vacation (i.e. the pebble beach country club overlooking the golf course) and was always complemented by the folks sitting nearby on his behavior. They would actually come up to me after having finished their meal to thank me, even when he was three! Maybe the problem isn't the children, but the parents who can't control them. Those are the kids who grow up acting like the "world is their daycare center"...so, how do we keep them out of the restaurant? I was at the BBQ spot with my son and a grown man broke a glass and then tried drunk flirting with the waitress as she was picking it up. He noticed me lecturing my son on how not to be "that guy" and got really embarrassed- it was hilarious!

I think a lot of people lack common sense when it comes to their dchildren's and their own behavior. What would've annoyed them when it was someone else's kid is cute when Slade Jr does it.

I feel ok taking my kid to places that have high-chairs. Always earlier in the evening, not in the bar. If she gets loud, we have to take the food to go, and go home. I think parents who are ignoring a whining kid, or a screaming kid, would tell you that they're teaching Jr that the undesired behavior won't get Mom to cave in. That type of lesson should be taught at home, where it's not a disturbance to other people. So, yeah, there are certain times you have to stay home when you're a parent. It's the choice you made.

Effin' A. Don't think I want to eat at a naked restaurant, but free market would dictate that it should be allowed. I am a big fan of the "no baby" rule.

"My parents took us to restaurants from the time we were very young, but unless I'm forgetting something, there was NEVER a time when we did anything but act like tiny adults."

Thank you Amy for this old fashioned common sense example in an age when people celebrate disability, er... diversity to the point of inconveniencing those of us who have actually taken the time and care neccesary to help our children learn how to act in public.

One of my friends once asked me why I was so concerned with how my son was acting. I had to explain to her that, first of all, I don't want him going around acting like a knucklehead for his own sake and for seconds, what guy is going to want to date a woman with a bratty kid? As a hot young single mom, this is a serious concern of mine.

We took our kids out to family-style restaurants at very young ages. We had a rule - never get out of your seat (or booster seat), and no crying was allowed - or they'd go outside. I don't actually remember ever having to take them outside, but I know my own embarrassment and concern for other diners, would've mandated it.

We took them all over the world, but never to "fine dining" or adult places, like a wine bar. We didn't want to. Believe me, we availed ourselves of any opportunity to have babysitting services, so we could enjoy adult time.

But that seems to me to really be changing. I've heard parents make other parents feel bad for not bringing their little ones....like "you left him/her at home?" in a tone that implies it's bad parenting. That was never the case when I was a young parent.

It really is a tightrope walk nowadays, lovelysoul. Everyone is so different and what one parent deems appropriate another may not. Welcome to life w/o a manual. Let me tell you I have had some awkward moments when I've realized I'm not in the most appropriate spot for my kiddo, but it usually has to do with how the adults are acting and not how my son is acting (i.e Pot smoking in the movie theatre). That's cool- I'm all for some wild adult times, trust me, as a part time domme I've had some wild times! As a full time school teacher and mother, I've had some not so wild times. A time and a place people, time and a place!

Why on earth would you take a child of any age to a wine bar? My kids are all school age and (allow me to brag a bit) reasonably well behaved with good table manners; but there are still places I will not take them. Places like R rated movies, night clubs, wine bars and wineries, restaurants that are adult oriented are not for children of any age. A wine bar is- well-a bar. When they were babies and less than reasonable toddlers and preschoolers they stayed with a sitter. If we couldn't afford the expense of a sitter and the night out we stayed home and watched Veggie Tales together. If we did take them with us for dinner it would be to a "family" place and ask to be seated by the kitchen and the restrooms. And we made them sit still and eat nicely.

What gets me is no one teaches table manners at home these days so when the crotchnuggets get in public it is a horrible sight. The only, and I mean only people I can think of in past years who have taught their children impecible manners are my brother/his wife and bro/sis-in-law. Those little girls could handle utensils, eat whatever was put in front of them (within reason but they all are good eaters who don't subsist on pizza and chicken fingers), keep quite, sit still and have been taught self-control.

The rest of my aquaintances and friends since the 80's? (When my peers began squeezin' them out.) Brats. Including my husband's boys. At 14 (I kid you not) one of his doofus sons could not handle his utensils well enough to cut meat. His daddy had to jump in and do it for him. Then kid ended up dumping plate on his lap cuz it got away from him. It was culinary train wreck. Because his kids had never been instructed. Mommy and daddy just assumed they would learn by osmosis I guess. Plus, kids their age rarely need forks. It's all friggin finger food. Vegetables? Lean meat? What's THAT?

Everyone else I have known with kids let them run wild during meals at home. There is no asking to be excused, no please, thank you, pass the salt. It's mayhem. They don't have to sit still in their seats. They shovel the chow in their face holes, screech, laugh, argue and make mommy get up 5 times as if she is a waitress. This shit of cooking every kid in family whatever the hell they want has got to stop.

I have theory that all this lack of teaching self-control is reason bullshit like ADD/ADHD and yes, high-functioning autism is 'on the rise'. I say it has everything to do with inmates running the asylum. By the time these moron heathens get out in public and in school the dye has been cast. So bust out the Ritalin. Now we have whole generation of young men who can't/won't function in society and will be living with Mommy their whole lives. If anyone doesn't think things like table manners matter, I beg to differ.

So if you are not going to supress little Caitlin's spirit and teach her to contain herself, at home, keep out of the bars and restaurants. Please. I am sick of paying $30.00 for main course and listening to your offspring all night.

Ditto bringing them to concerts. Saw Neil Young few years ago and some idiots had a baby there. It was a mellow acoustic show. That cu**nugget started to make noise. It got so bad Young stopped and actually said to please take baby out. THEY PARENTS DIDN'T. The ushers should have been all over that. I called theatre next day to gripe and gal on phone had no idea what I was talking about. Hello! The performer even complained!
This country is going to hell in handbasket.

My eldest stepson was diagnosed with Asperger's at 13. I am familiar with it. That said, had his parents done more to instill social skills earlier and after his diagnosis I am convincied he would be functioning better as a young adult now. Ditto for his twin brothers. Who have not been diagnosed with anything but still suffer from horrid social skills. (One of them is the 14 year-old who could not cut his meat and has so far been fired from every menial job he has had, despite a BA in business.) As an outside observer I still think the parents failed to socialize these kids. Could better social skills have changed the Asperger's boy? Yes. Teaching him not to pick his nose in public would have gone a long way. Ditto sticking his hand down his pants then sniffing his fingers. You would not want to sit next to him on a bus, trust me. His parents did not serve him well and anyone else trying to bring "it", ahem, to their attention was met with outrage.

A good friend of ours is an ADD adult. I don't dispute the diagnosis. I do believe it is over used for children. Children who do not get proper nutrition, enough exercise, are allowed to rule the roost, run amok, are not taught one modicum of self restraint, etc. get slapped with "ADD". It's a cop out for parents.

Gee donna you're so compassionate! If I was on that bus I'd rather sit next to the nose picking ass sniffer than you. You obviously think you have some authority to pick and choose who is authentically autistic and who is just suffering from a case of bratism. Unless you are a neurologist or a psychologist you absolutely do not! I'm a special ed teacher and I don't even have the authority to diagnose, but I don't need to be a detective to figure out that you got more than you bargained for when you married Mr. Mom. Sounds like quite a catch! My son has Tourette's Syndrome, so I've met more than a few skeptics like you. It's really insulting and presumptuous for folks to be all "Oh try a gluten free diet." or "Oh how did you get the doctor to give him that diagnoses?" As if I have Munchausen's by proxy or I haven't done any research on behalf of my child. Whatever!
@Amy-Temple Grandin is amazing, I have seen her speak several times and she is not only brilliant with animals, but she's funny too! I have not seen that new movie with claire daines.

I have theory that all this lack of teaching self-control is reason bullshit like ADD/ADHD and yes, high-functioning autism is 'on the rise'.

"Sorry, this is ridiculous. I take Ritalin for ADHD. It's amazing. Without it, I have 16 squirrels in my head running in 16 different directions. With it, they will usually sit quietly on the rug so I can get some work done. I only wish somebody had diagnosed me when I was a teenager."

Amy-
I think I wrote that response (yours) to the comment, in a dream. I wish I had- It's so apt and funny! My experiences exactly!

I have theory that all this lack of teaching self-control is reason bullshit like ADD/ADHD and yes, high-functioning autism is 'on the rise'.

"Sorry, this is ridiculous. I take Ritalin for ADHD. It's amazing. Without it, I have 16 squirrels in my head running in 16 different directions. With it, they will usually sit quietly on the rug so I can get some work done. I only wish somebody had diagnosed me when I was a teenager."

Amy-
I think I wrote that response (yours) to the ADD comment in one of my dreams.
It is so apt and funny, and describes my difficulty exactly!
I like the idea of the squirrels,(chickens, gnats, etc.) sitting quietly on the rug!

Donna, I also cringe at your statements, which seem to stem from both ignorance and annoyance. You can't easily "teach" someone with Aspergers or autism social skills. That is one of the basic components of the disorder.

Sounds like you had a very rough time becoming a stepmom to these boys, and I commmend you for taking that on, but blaming the parents, especially your hubby, is counterproductive. You may think you would've handled it all differently, but unless you've raised a special needs child, you really can't judge.

Plus, it seems like you could've picked up the ball and played a role in helping him develop better skills if it was possible, rather than resent him.

My son has/had Aspergers, and his social skills were bad at that age too, but, now, at 20, he's becoming a social butterfly! It's amazing. Like Grandin describes doing, even now at her age, he seems to have been teaching himself how to be more social - making eye contact, learning the social cues others are giving him and how to respond.

But I think he had to be ready for it, as it's a lot of input to process, and at 13, he simply wasn't ready. No amount of forcing him to "act normal" would've made it happen.

Kids mature at their own pace, so don't judge so harshly. Heck, I couldn't really cut steak properly until I was 21. It's not that big a deal.

I am an aspie. I lean towards donna. Learning manners is rote learning. When I was younger there was no real information around about Aspergers, and the awareness level was nil. I had no formal diagnosis but a few years ago when my mom heard of it, she said it nailed me.

It was a long hard slog for her. But she did it. Due to her insistence on manners and proper behavior i was able to be a productive member of society with the mimimum of pain to me as possible,and pain to others around me.

Even Temple Grandin herself echoed what donna was saying about instilling manners and good behavior in a talk that is available on youtube.

It sounds as if the the parents didnteven try. shoot, even NT kids are savages without proper instruction in manners.

The tone she writes her thoughts in sounds frustrated and angry,but she is livingit. Sounds like she needs to letit go herself....I mean, it is not like she was responsible for unleashing these barbarians into the community.

And no,I would rather sit near donna on the bus rather than an ass sniffer as long as she kept to her side of the seat and kept her yap shut. :D

I have had to rely on public transportation one too many times to think of it as a social justice arena...I want safe,quiet efficient transport and will avoid ass sniffers, talkers,gropers and stinkies whereever possible.

People, quit being stupid. You don't take a kid to a bar ANYTIME! You don't take small children to fancy restaurants when folks are paying big bucks to enjoy a good meal. Funtime is over when you are a parent, but if you have to go out get a babysitter.

I think alot of this is just showing off wanting attention through the cute little baby. I see this all the time at lunch in some of the better places here: mommy and all of her friends bring the adorable little munchkins--isn't that cute!?

I have seen many times mothers changing little ones on the frickin' TABLE for gosh sake! Gross! Do it in private! Breastfeeding? Do it in private if you are at a nice place. Geez folks, get some manners. Donna, you are right on!

With my son I quickly found that there were "kid-friendly" places to go where people would not give you dirty looks, and we visited those places. I never took my kid to a bar...in this day and age that would be fodder in a custody battle.!

Be accountable for your actions all you progressives....we all realize that you think you can do whatever you want and that it is your right, but have some consideration for others in public places.

What is it about these children that makes them so discontented, so petulant, so crabby?

The unhappiness of their parents.

http://nymag.com/news/features/67024/

Thanks Amy for the links and thank you Pirate Jo. That article was interesting. Sometimes it is hard to find a balance between parenthood and a social life, but who did they interview for that study of parents? The activities they enjoy are what?? And I quote:

" (Among the endeavors they preferred: preparing food, watching TV, exercising, talking on the phone, napping, shopping, housework.)"

OMG! I'd be running for the liquor cabinet too! I havent watched TV since my son was born, what parent has the time? Some of the things I have enjoyed in recent months are a Eugene Ionesco play, Experimental improv (hungover improv) at eight a.m. on my b-day, the tide pools at crystal cove state beach, the Long Beach art walk, the Baldessari show at LACMA and talking with my best friend until 330 a.m. while overlooking the ocean sitting on the cliffs of San Pedro.

I think you're correct in the sense that children will act out if their parents aren't involved in activities that enrich the senses and feed the soul. Having kids wont make a person "More happy"
it's just different. Once in the last couple months my son got the stomach flu, it was on a weekend when I had tix to go to a convention. The tix were expensive b/c I had bought the weekend package, but I didn't go. I was talking to a friend on the phone about how bummed I was and she said "Isn't that when you just hate the child?" I had to explain to her that "actually it's when I realize how much I love my child" I could've left him with his Gma but he wanted Mom, it was really sweet and so fleeting. Pretty soon he'll be wanting his gf and I'll be the furthest thing from his mind.

"Funtime is over when you are a parent, but if you have to go out get a babysitter."

This is the sentiment that worreid me. Not the part about getting a babysitter, which I agree with, but the "if you *have* to go out."

Parents, like anybody, do have to go out. They SHOULD go out. Just because you become a parent doesn't mean you give up your entire life or right to have adult time. This "giving up funtime" mentality is making things worse the message parents are receiving is that you're bad and selfish if you want to leave your child for a few hours. So, this taking kids to bars is the way they're trying to find a compromise.

So Amy Ritalin does this for you

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ztg9CWJmyB4&feature=related

This is the sentiment that worreid me.

Me, too. My husband had a conversation with a friend of his, who is a father of three (married to the mother and a guy who thinks most people should have children), and says that children should not be the center of a person's life. His marriage comes first. He and his wife seem to really enjoy their family, their marriage and their lives, and they seem far less stressed out than people who have one kid. They're also fine with hiring a babysitter when the venue is not appropriate for children, which is something we all appreciate.

Right, MonicaP. People used to understand this better. Parents were expected to hang out with other adults, not their kids.

I remember whenever we had family gatherings, like holidays, we kids always ate in another room, on those little card tables, while the adults had the big table. I guess that would be considered awful today.

The best thing a couple can do for their kids is keep their marriage strong, and that takes adult time. Go to the wine bar for a romantic date night, not kiddie time.

I say that if you want an adult place to go when you have found a baby sitter for your children, then go to a damn bar. Restaurants are for families. That includes children. Bars have food and drinks and music. People need to grow the hell up and stop acting like children theirselves. Children are the ones who are sappossed to be whinning about me me me not adults. Grow up. At one point in time we were all repetitvie, whinny, and loud. We LEARNED not to act that way because our parents did not give up on taking us out in public. We LEARNED that it was inapropret to act that way.

So Christy, you think a candle lit $300 a plate resturant is basiclly the same as Burger King.

And should mommy need to change the little darlings shit filled diaper three feet from my food - you think I'm the one with the problem?

Amy and luj, go back and re-read Christy's post. She's eight years old and wants to eat at the big-people restaurants.

I just finished reading the NY Mag article Pirate Jo posted, and the comments, many of which are along the lines of "Children make you less selfish and more compassionate and super awesome sauce Jesuscakes" and all that. If being a parent means less selfishness, then surely parents can understand that watching a screaming toddler wiggle between tables is unpleasant for everyone. People who spawned that toddler have a biological imperative to keep him alive. The rest of us just want to enjoy our wine (and perhaps spend a few hours away from screaming toddlers of their own).

Even in cases where children are well-behaved, the mere presence of a child can put a damper on adult fun. I'm reminded of a Halloween party I attended several years ago. There was booze and raunchy conversation about politics and movies and books. When the kid showed up, everyone started to watch their language and talk about kid-related things. It really sucked the life out of the evening.

You people are nuts. Did you not read the whole story Amy wrote. Nowhere in it did it mention that they were going to a $300 plate dinner. It read that the owners wife was mortified that this was happening and that kids WERE MORE THAN WELCOME. And if you are crazy enough, Lujlp, to take a child to a $300 dollar a plate candle lit dinner, then you are completly and uterly stupid. And for your information, Pirate Jo, I am not an 8 year old wanting to eat at the big people's table, I am 30 years old and in college, and have 4 children of my own. I take them to out to eat in public yes. We go to Red Lobster twice a month. They are well manered in public and at home. But the way most of you are talking, you don't want to go out to eat ANYWHERE where there is a child present because it puts a damper on YOUR time. Boo Hoo Get over yourself. It's life. Like it or lump it. Nobody is going to ban children from restaurants. That's just plain stupid. Most of you sound like your motto is Children should be seen and not heard.

And another thing that really bothers me, Children should come first, NOT YOU SIGNIFICANT OTHER. Where are your hearts people? And yor brains for that matter...

But the way most of you are talking, you don't want to go out to eat ANYWHERE where there is a child present because it puts a damper on YOUR time.

Who said that? Or are you exaggerating people's statements to fit what you wish they had said so you have a stronger reason for getting your panties in a wad?

If your kids truly are as well-behaved as you say, then no one is going to have a problem eating with them in Red Lobster, which is a family restaurant. No one hates a well-mannered, quiet child. What I would like to see from parents is the understanding that there are some venues that are not appropriate for children, because children do not have the same sensibilities and limits as adults, and because sometimes adults like to have time with other adults.

Boo Hoo Get over yourself. It's life. Like it or lump it.

Hey, fine with me. As long as parents agree to like it or lump it if they take their kids to an adult venue and I start having conversations about gimp masks at the stool next to them.

And another thing that really bothers me, Children should come first, NOT YOU SIGNIFICANT OTHER.

When my hypothetical child is grown, I'd like to still be married to his or her father, my husband, not fussing around with SIGNIFICANT OTHERS. Strong marriages make strong families. Not a big deal if you believe otherwise, but it leads me to my next point, which is

And yor brains for that matter...

If you're going to imply that we're shit for brains, be sure to spell check. It's important.

Boo Hoo Get over yourself. It's life. Like it or lump it.

People who say this do not actually have well-behaved children.

And another thing that really bothers me, Children should come first, NOT YOU SIGNIFICANT OTHER.

People who say this do not have well-behaved children OR a significant other.

Where are your hearts people?

Parked right next to my motto, which is that children should be seen and not heard.

Agreed on the spell-check MonicaP. It would be nice to see the mother of four children show some evidence of a GED.

Christy, parents do indeed take their unrully kids to expensive resturants.

I've seen others change diapers in the resturant(one that had a changing stationn the bathroom) surronded by dozens of people trying to eat.

You say you have well behaved children? Why then are you so fucking upset that we are discussing bad parents and their unruly offspring?

Seems to me as a good parent you should have MORE reason then we childless folk to be pissed at bad parents.

Why do you defend bad parents?

She defends them, because clearly she is one. Otherwise, she wouldn't have her knickers in such a twist.

And Christy, Jesus Christ, PLEASE tell me someone other than you is teaching your kids to read and write. Holy hell.