The Difference Between A Douchebag And A Rapist
Somebody should explain it to some Israeli judges, because if this case is rape, millions of men and women in bars, parties and countless other venues around the world are rapists.
Jo Adetunji and Harriet Sherwood write for the Guardian that an Arab man was convicted of rape for lying to a Jewish woman that he was a Jew so she'd have sex with him:
Sabbar Kashur, 30, was sentenced to 18 months in prison on Monday after the court ruled that he was guilty of rape by deception. According to the complaint filed by the woman with the Jerusalem district court, the two met in downtown Jerusalem in September 2008 where Kashur, an Arab from East Jerusalem, introduced himself as a Jewish bachelor seeking a serious relationship. The two then had consensual sex in a nearby building before Kashur left.When she later found out that he was not Jewish but an Arab, she filed a criminal complaint for rape and indecent assault.
Although Kashur was initially charged with rape and indecent assault, this was changed to a charge of rape by deception as part of a plea bargain arrangement.
Handing down the verdict, Tzvi Segal, one of three judges on the case, acknowledged that sex had been consensual but said that although not "a classical rape by force," the woman would not have consented if she had not believed Kashur was Jewish.
The sex therefore was obtained under false pretences, the judges said. "If she hadn't thought the accused was a Jewish bachelor interested in a serious romantic relationship, she would not have cooperated," they added.
The court ruled that Kashur should receive a jail term and rejected the option of a six-month community service order. He was said to be seeking to appeal.
Segal said: "The court is obliged to protect the public interest from sophisticated, smooth-tongued criminals who can deceive innocent victims at an unbearable price - the sanctity of their bodies and souls. When the very basis of trust between human beings drops, especially when the matters at hand are so intimate, sensitive and fateful, the court is required to stand firmly at the side of the victims - actual and potential - to protect their wellbeing. Otherwise, they will be used, manipulated and misled, while paying only a tolerable and symbolic price."
Adult humans are required to develop themselves to the point where they aren't gullible as kittens.
Shhh don't tell my girlfriend I am a Scorpio. I said I was Leo. If she found out I was a...
Come on this is the first the woman has ever been lied to by a man. Geeze. Careful guys do not lie about your job. Your honor he said he was a Investment bank so I slept with him but I found out he is a bank clerk. I was raped!
Lets hope this guys appeal goes well for him. I might want to google alert this!
John Paulson at July 22, 2010 2:11 AM
The background on this issue goes back some ways. This case is actually based on a previous case several years ago where a man impersonated a gov't official and promised favors in exchange for sex from a desperate woman. Obviously the case takes on different over tones when it's not about race, and instead is a pretty blatant con.
The precedent was set, due to judicial activism in the case of the con man. The original judge failed to realize the consequences of establishing such a precedent, and instead sided compassionately for the victim; effectively making it "rape" to lie for sex.
Israel, has an tragic and lengthy history of Judicial activism. Culminating in it's icon former Chief Justice Barak. Keep this in mind before letting a woman like Kagan, who lists Barak as one of her heroes, into your supreme court.
TheLoneCabbage at July 22, 2010 4:26 AM
The thing I can't help but notice is right right next door if a woman is violently raped SHE is considered the problem and is summarily punished for dishoring her family. Fucked up shit.
Sabrina at July 22, 2010 5:39 AM
Until recently there was a law in South Korea that a man could be punished for promising to marry a woman to get sex
http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/house-and-home/sex-after-fake-promise-to-marry-no-longer-offence-in-skorea-1830107.html
John Paulson at July 22, 2010 6:13 AM
I'm sure there's a way to blame American feminists for this.
MonicaP at July 22, 2010 6:25 AM
Hmm, guys, get ready to testify under oath prior to each sexual encounter. You will answer completely and truthfully all questions about your job, your family, your finances, your sexual history, and whether or not you've ever listened to Glenn Beck.
Cabbage, that's an interesting analysis. I don't know about Israeli law, but in the U.S., impersonating a government official is a crime, so I could see drawing a distinction between that case and the other case. Lying about your religion isn't a crime (yet).
Cousin Dave at July 22, 2010 6:40 AM
I'm sure there's a way to blame American feminists for this.
Posted by: MonicaP at July 22, 2010 6:25 AM
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There are feminists that have said all sex with men is rape.
Feminists have created an environment where women are treated more like children and like some kind of protected species.
They are treated like children because they are not responsible for the bad decisions they make, and have to be protected from the bad decisions they make and that they turn out to regret.
Regret is not rape.
They are treated like protected species by the courts. Women receive favoritism and preferred treatment in Western court systems because the feminists have trained the courts to view all women as victims.
In an accusation by a woman against a man the man is almost always considered guilty until proven innocent. If he is proven innocent there is a long shadow of doubt cast over him.
If the woman charges are found to be baseless she is almost never convicted of false accusations.
Therefore women have almost free reign to accuse men of anything without much of any chance for repercussions.
David M. at July 22, 2010 6:55 AM
Thanks, David M., but we still need to find a way to blame American feminists for a law passed in Israel. Because if there's anything I've learned here, it's that anytime a man gets screwed over, there's a feminist in the corner laughing her ass off.
Women receive favoritism and preferred treatment in Western court systems because the feminists have trained the courts to view all women as victims.
Just one thing on this: This is not new to the 1960s and on. Check out some of the etiquette of the 18th and 19th centuries, and the hilarious things women were expected to be "protected" from.
MonicaP at July 22, 2010 7:12 AM
Just to piggyback on MonicaP's excellent comment - David M., you do realize that courts have viewed women as victims and in need of extra protection...well, since there were courts? And that the people responsible for this are...male? It's quite pathetic to criticize victimhood with false cries of your own victimization.
CB at July 22, 2010 7:16 AM
Edited: Make that a conviction in Israel, because convictions are not laws.
Also: A guy outside the subway stop tells me all the time that I'm going to hell for being a dirty whore who traps men with my sexuality. He says this to me and every other woman who passes as part of his "sermon," so I'm not special, but can I assume he speaks for all men? Or just religious men? Or just really damaged religious men?
Back to the Israeli case: This opens a huge can of worms for anyone who has ever fudged the truth to get sex.
I'm reminded of a family friend. The summer I graduated from high school, before I left for college, he took me out for dinner and imparted some wise words. He said: "All men will lie for sex. I lied for sex. Don't be stupid."
Everyone should get that advice. While not all men will lie for sex, it doesn't hurt to be cautious.
MonicaP at July 22, 2010 7:23 AM
You know, if it was that important to this woman that her potential partner is both Jewish and seeking a serious relationship, wouldn't it be a good idea to get to know a guy for a few weeks (or hell, even a few days) before fucking him?
KarenW at July 22, 2010 7:47 AM
>>You know, if it was that important to this woman that her potential partner is both Jewish and seeking a serious relationship, wouldn't it be a good idea to get to know a guy for a few weeks (or hell, even a few days) before fucking him?
KarenW,
I find the redefining of rape to obtain a conviction in this case so alarming, I see no need for slut shaming.
Jody Tresidder at July 22, 2010 7:55 AM
Did she even look at his penis?
DaveG at July 22, 2010 7:57 AM
>>Everyone should get that advice. While not all men will lie for sex, it doesn't hurt to be cautious.
MonicaP,
I was so nuts about the guy I later married, I deceitfully claimed to adore his parents' beloved dog (he was temporarily looking after the pervy, scurvy, hopelessly-spoiled mutt when we met.)
Many years on, my husband still shakes his head at the deception. Not because I was insincere, but because he still insists the long dead dog was objectively faultless.
Jody Tresidder at July 22, 2010 8:12 AM
This is interesting because the REAL crime here is religious and cultural intolerance.
Also, I find it *amusing* that this woman was able to convince a court that she was looking for a 'serious relationship'...by having sex with a guy she just met in an 'nearby building?' Hmmm...
This guy got railroaded not because he's a rapist, but because he's an Arab in Israel. Not exactly a shocker, is it?
lori m at July 22, 2010 8:26 AM
Not just men lie about sex related things...women lie just as much. So don't get all huffy and misandric on us. Everyone lies. Everyone.
mike at July 22, 2010 9:26 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2010/07/22/the_difference_14.html#comment-1735595">comment from mikeNot just men lie about sex related things...women lie just as much
See above post. Note "men AND WOMEN."
Men and women lie about different things. On the Internet, they are more likely to lie about their weight, and men, about their income.
Amy Alkon at July 22, 2010 9:31 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2010/07/22/the_difference_14.html#comment-1735596">comment from Amy AlkonWomen are less likely to lie to get sex -- not because women are more moral, but because they typically just need to want to have it.
Amy Alkon at July 22, 2010 9:33 AM
that important to this woman that her potential partner is both Jewish and seeking a serious relationship, wouldn't it be a good idea to get to know a guy for a few weeks (or hell, even a few days) before fucking him?
&
Also, I find it *amusing* that this woman was able to convince a court that she was looking for a 'serious relationship'...by having sex with a guy she just met in an 'nearby building?' Hmmm...
~~
I thought so too ... a nearby building?
Was it in the stairwell? Hourly rates?
~~~
This is exactly a situation that could use some slut-shaming. If you're not woman-enough to stand by your decision, then take longer to make it.
So what it didn't turn out like you thought it would. Too bad she thought her woo-woo was gold & would make him fall hopelessly in love.
MeganNJ at July 22, 2010 10:21 AM
Why not slut shame? An ethical slut never would have accused this guy of rape for something like this. I hope the dude wins the appeal.
DragonHawk at July 22, 2010 10:41 AM
"An ethical slut never would have accused this guy of rape for something like this."
Does anyone else see the oxymoron in this sentence...??? *snort*
Sabrina at July 22, 2010 10:56 AM
Glad this didn't happen here. I think we may have court cases similar this, people with AIDs who knowingly engage in unprotected sex with the intent to infect (although, that is more sinister than this so called "rape").
I know Ben-David is from Isreal, I'd like to get his take on the reasoning behind this seemingly ridiculous law.
I don't like laws that shield people from the consequences of their mistakes in judgement - especially when their judgement changes AFTER the fact. Well, no duh.
Feebie at July 22, 2010 10:58 AM
He should find out if she has fake boobs, capped teeth, dyed hair or whatever, and countersue. Apparently no issue is too silly or trivial for those courts.
Steve H at July 22, 2010 11:09 AM
"Because if there's anything I've learned here, it's that anytime a man gets screwed over, there's a feminist in the corner laughing her ass off. "
the you haven't been patying particularly close attention Monica. Very often when a man is getting screwed over, it's just plain old chivalry - see Mary Winkler, female sentnecing discount and the pussy pass. of course there are thousands of other examples every year. That's chivalry in action. It's just that often it's impossible to distinguish between feminism and chivalry other types of male chauvinism.
Jim at July 22, 2010 11:12 AM
"This guy got railroaded not because he's a rapist, but because he's an Arab in Israel. Not exactly a shocker, is it?" Lori, I'm not so sure about that... it's my inexpert understanding that a lot of Israeli society is actually pretty left-wing. I could see this case being a minority-vs-minority power struggle for privilege.
Cousin Dave at July 22, 2010 11:13 AM
So, lying about being Jewish to have sex with a woman is not kosher?
Sorry.
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I'm curious about what the "nearby building" was. If it was a hotel, I'm sure the article would have said "hotel."
====================
The court is only obliged to protect the "sanctity of their bodies and souls" when they've made a decent effort to defend it themselves.
If you're running off to a "nearby building" to have sex with a man you just met, you're not exactly rigorously defending the sanctity of your body or your soul.
====================
How did she later find out he wasn't Jewish?
====================
According to another account, he left without waiting for her to get dressed. A woman scorned?
====================
I believe he told her that he was looking for a serious relationship. No word on what she was looking for...other than a "nearby building" and a Jewish guy.
Conan the Grammarian at July 22, 2010 11:47 AM
Cousin Dave, Israel is most definitely not left-wing these days. Here's a good article discussing a lot of the issues: http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2010/jun/10/failure-american-jewish-establishment/
CB at July 22, 2010 12:16 PM
Jody ...I dont see the comments pointing out the mismatch between what she said and what she did as 'slut shaming'....that was just highlighting stupidity and this ladies foolishness.
She said she wanted a relationship,suuuuure, then turns around and consensually had sex with someone she JUST MET! What she said and what she did were two conflicting things.
In my younger days I was a slut,now reformed, and honestly honestly totally agree with the poster above that regret doesnot equal rape.
Shame can serve as a very powerfulagent of change. I try to convey to my own daughter that a wild and crazy sex life with all the man-candy you can eat will lead to a very unfulfilling end if you ride it out to the bitter end...so dont even start.
Have some respect for yourself and your partners...and be much more judgemental and discerning...for a few moments or hours of pleasure racked up over days and weeks and years is really empty in the end.
Youth is full of missteps and by shame I do not mean a letter tattoed to a head and a lifelong dribble of contempt and spew,but more like jerking large dogs leash sharply...to get their attention and halt further bad behaviour.
This lady compounds her shameless foolishness by her public announcement of stupidity and thoughtlessness which trounced this mans life. shame on her,this should be some lifelong contempt for this bimbo.
rsj at July 22, 2010 12:27 PM
There are similar laws in Europe.
Google "rape by deception".
This isn't about race - it's about stupid judges.
Ben David at July 22, 2010 12:50 PM
Oh, and CB - don't link to Peter Beinhart if you want to maintain any credibility about the Arab-Israeli conflict.
Ben David at July 22, 2010 12:51 PM
It is not rape; it is fraud.
He exhanged "sex with a Jewish man" for "sex with The Woman".
The proper judgment is to evaluate the difference in value between "sex with a Jewish man" and "sex with an Arab man".
If "sex with a Jewish man" is worth more than $50 above "sex with an Arab man", and if "sex with The Woman" is worth more $50 (making it more than a petty theft), then he could be properly convicted of grand theft by fraudulent representation (or something like that).
Of course, these determinations may be difficult, and maybe politically explosive. (smile)
Andrew_M_Garland at July 22, 2010 12:52 PM
It is correct we don't have to look to Israel for guidance on this issue.
Here in the U.S., "rape" is already whatever a woman says it is, whenever she says it. The "rapist" is whomever she says he is -- even her husband -- until he can manage to prove himself innocent. All the while, of course, his name is publicly dragged through the mud, while the name of the poor "victim" is shielded.
REAL victims suffer from this "rape inflation" and the unsurprising epidemic of outright false accusations it engenders (pun intended). REAL rapists must think they've died and gone to heaven, of course.
Ironically, in our "post-feminist" society, for all the hyper-ventilated talk about "rape" and "victims", one actully sees a growing population of women who can accurately be described only as "sluts" -- sluts who apparently aspire to be whores in one way or the other. Woe betide the man who deprives a would-be whore of her "honest" compensation and elevation in status! Sounds like rape! Hell hath no fury ...
Given that sluts look to be reaching critical mass in society, I feel so sorry for the many true ladies left who are tarnished by and suffer the consequences of the "liberated" and "empowered" behavior of their libertine sisters.
Remember, the goal of feminists has been to reverse the relative "fortunes" of men and women. So, women should LOVE it when the fast-approaching day comes when they have to pay for everything themselves -- and get nothing for sex. In other words, when the game is finally played completely on mens' terms.
It's called "equality." Too bad it's already too late to be careful what you asked for.
Jay R at July 22, 2010 1:15 PM
Is he a doushbag? yes,
Was it fraud? probably,
Was it Rape? no.
Joe at July 22, 2010 1:22 PM
Ben-David,
1) What's wrong with Peter Beinhart?
2) Do you think it's inaccurate to describe the current Israeli government as extremely right-wing?
CB at July 22, 2010 1:54 PM
Edited: Make that a conviction in Israel, because convictions are not laws.
Posted by: MonicaP at July 22, 2010 7:23 AM
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No, but they set precedent. That can have effects across international borders.
Sio at July 22, 2010 2:03 PM
"No, but they set precedent. That can have effects across international borders"
How? It may not carry that much weight if it does...If someone used a Kentucky (on point) court case in a California court it may be persuasive but wouldn't exactly establish a clear precedence nor be the best source.
I don't have any international law experience, but with respects to criminal cases, I am just not sure how persuasive another countries court findings would be - and it would be quite a stretch to say it would set a precedence. (I've been known to be wrong on occasion though).
Feebie at July 22, 2010 4:12 PM
>>No, but they set precedent. That can have effects across international borders.
Isn't it more backwards looking, in terms of the USA, Sio?
The guy's deception, in the eyes of the woman, recalls the hysteria about the wrong folk "passing" for white under Jim Crow laws.
Jody Tresidder at July 22, 2010 4:29 PM
"An ethical slut never would have accused this guy of rape for something like this."
Does anyone else see the oxymoron in this sentence...??? *snort*
Posted by: Sabrina
Not really, ethics and 'religious morals' are totally seperate concepts
I agree though that this guy should find out is she dyed her hair or whitened her teeth and make a claim against her
lujlp at July 22, 2010 5:22 PM
He could file his claim in Sharia court because it's "his culture."
Conan the Grammarian at July 22, 2010 5:49 PM
We have at least two and perhaps three Justices on the Supreme Court who have used laws from other countries as a basis for their decisions.
Which is terrifying, and completely at odds with their oath.
The argument that they keep using in death-penalty cases is "Europe has abolished the deth penalty, so we should too."
brian at July 22, 2010 7:16 PM
"We have at least two and perhaps three Justices on the Supreme Court who have used laws from other countries as a basis for their decisions."
Wow, that is disconcerting. Bad law, and bad rulings. Dare we guess which justices these were?
Or did they use these as part of their "opinions". Not that it makes too much of a difference grant you - but it would be really shameful if it was submitted and accepted as proper case law precedent by one of the attorneys. Opinions aren't precedence from what I remember, but they can be used to persuade.
Brian, if you happen to run into these - if you wouldn't mind - I would be really interested in knowing the names of the cases (and/or justices).
Good grief.
Feebie feebiebabe @ gmail.com at July 22, 2010 9:22 PM
Under this logic, any woman (or man) who has ever lied about being married when they wanted to bang a stranger is guilty of rape. Or any woman who faked her attraction to or respect for a man until she got him down his aisle and the legal hooks into his money is guilty of fraud and/or theft. I doubt any feminists would support those prosecutions.
Trust at July 23, 2010 5:41 AM
I agree with Lori M that this is more of a racism/religious bigotry issue than a rape issue. This guy didn't get convicted because he lied about his income or his sexual history or his intentions-he got convicted because he was an Arab pretending to be a Jew in a Jewish country that doesn't like Arabs. Had the ethnicities been reversed, I doubt there would ever have been a case.
Shannon at July 23, 2010 6:01 AM
Feeb - don't have the time to look it up at the moment, Ginsburg and Stevens have both done it, and Ginsburg defended herself when criticized about it by saying that there's nothing wrong with deciding a law is unconstitutional by referencing foreign law.
Which is a blatantly stupid thing to say, but there it is.
I'll look up cites later. I have to get to a customer.
brian at July 23, 2010 6:26 AM
This guy didn't get convicted because he lied about his income or his sexual history or his intentions-he got convicted because he was an Arab pretending to be a Jew
Probably true
in a Jewish country that doesn't like Arabs.
Possibly true
Had the ethnicities been reversed, I doubt there would ever have been a case.
Definatly true. Of course the reason for that would be the woman might never report it for fear of being killed, and if she did report itthe guy would have bee killed
lujlp at July 23, 2010 7:13 AM
It's a widespread social instinct for societies and tribes to want to protect "their" women from outsiders and keep them for themselves. I definitely agree that this is an ethnic issue rather than a feminist one.
NicoleK at July 23, 2010 7:30 AM
>>I agree with Lori M that this is more of a racism/religious bigotry issue than a rape issue. This guy didn't get convicted because he lied about his income or his sexual history or his intentions-he got convicted because he was an Arab pretending to be a Jew in a Jewish country that doesn't like Arabs. Had the ethnicities been reversed, I doubt there would ever have been a case.
Shanon,
There is another - even more vile - possibility.
That the woman calculated she could tap into more sympathy by opportunistically appealing to the worst stereotypical bigotry towards the Arab minority?
Maybe she knew damn well that there was nothing shocking or unusual about what actually went down -a guy getting into her pants by claiming he's rich and single when he wasn't.
But turn it into an intimate violation by the feared 'other' - and it becomes every bigot's nightmare.
(Just as there was some method to that crazed accusations by the mother who drowned her own two children - and had law enforcement initially looking for two black men?)
The rape conviction is just bewildering.
Jody Tresidder at July 23, 2010 8:42 AM
This is unbelievably repugnant. This conviction is a violation of this poor sap's human rights. Israel should be ashamed of itself.
Melissa G at July 23, 2010 8:55 AM
When did "pillow talk" become enforceable in a court of law?
Jay at July 24, 2010 7:42 AM
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