"I felt a little bit high school," confessed Ms. Bernstein, a former government lawyer who now heads the philanthropy company Manthropy. "It was just a little intimidating to cross the room."
---------------------

Sigh.

"Had I not approached him and flirted my ass off, and had he not talked to me and asked me out, he'd be some cute smart guy I talked to once at the Apple store about eight years ago."

And that still tickles me, just because it's very nice to see success!

Amy:
Had I not approached him and flirted my ass off
- - - - - - - - - -
... but extroverts like us can NEVER understand the bottomless-pit fear that most folks have in such situations.

(My guess is that you, like I, never understood all those studies that said people's number 1 fear was public speaking...)

I met my wife by working my sparkly conversational way around the table at a Shabbaton (Jewish singles weekend). She held her own when I talked to her - but is otherwise so shy that she'd never dream of initiating conversation with the person sitting next to her, male or female.

And there are more of them than us.

I'd also say fewer are willing to risk an opening gambit since TV has raised the bar on witty repartee - by making everything seem effortless, and by overexposing common openers.

Actually, I think it's kind of a cute idea. I was one of those shy types myself, and probably still would be if I weren't married, so I sympathize somewhat. Yes, people are supposed to be grownups and actually talk and stuff, and even with this service, they'll have to eventually. But maybe this service will grease the skids a little.

I dunno - I think this sort of thing is fine as a icebreaker. But it doesn't substitute for eye contact and conversation. And it does have more class that booty-grinding at clubs.

Plus it adds safety in the form of the message service, should your contact turn out to be a stalker.

I give a 4.5.

I think this is kinda cute. Very quaint and 19th century-like leaving a calling card. It's actually a very creative idea-sort of a combination of online dating and missed connections, with the advantage that you actually get to see each other in person before continuing contact.

I can't believe someone would pay for a service like this when it's so easy to print up your own cards and get a separate e-mail acct.

One of the most popular older women I know has her own cards, with cute little philosophical sayings, and she approaches attractive men her age. I think she usually strikes up a conversation first though before giving them a card.

The "I'm totally cooler than your date" could get somebody killed. Not to mention encouraging women to hand flirty cards to random guys could lead to a lot of problems. I predict "Cheekd.com" will be sued.

I find it a little... erm, weird or something. Maybe I'm just an old fogey. More to the point, though, this sounds to me like yet another of those trendy-hipster Manhattanite things that will be gone and forgotten three months from now.

Amy:
Had I not approached him and flirted my ass off
- - - - - - - - - -
... but extroverts like us can NEVER understand the bottomless-pit fear that most folks have in such situations.

Actually, I understand extroversion and introversion very well, and you seem to confuse introversion and shyness, as many do. I'm working on a column on this now to clear it up. Introverts have different brain function than extroverts, as do people with ADHD and people without. I haven't had coffee yet, so you'll have to wait for the column.

Furthermore, I have a friend who has an introverted husband as well, and we both spotted that the guys we are now with were not exactly "Hey, Baby" types, and respected them for asking us out.

This seems like another side effect of the whole Blackberry/Internet culture. Why go out and actually find someone at church, softball team, etc., when one can simply log onto match.com at home and browse?

I don't want our society to regress, but I remember my grandmother telling me stories of dances that her small town in Idaho held, and dances at her college during WWII. She met many friends, and my grandfather, at those dances. It's too bad we've become so far removed from proper social graces that we think throwing a card at someone is just as acceptable as walking up to them and saying "Hi. My name is Jane."

I would laugh my ass off if some guy handed one to me. Note passing didn't even work that well in high school and I'm not going to be impressed with a pre-printed witticism or compliment. Plus, it's not exactly flattering is it? Here, take a card, I've got fifty just like it in my jacket pocket. I barely keep track of the ones I get for business purposes.

"... but extroverts like us can NEVER understand the bottomless-pit fear that most folks have in such situations."

There's a difference between introverted and shy. I'm an introvert, but I can sparkle at parties and knock a training presentation out of the park. And I enjoy it while I do it. I'm not shy. But being around people is draining, I just don't get "energized" from being around people. Being at a beach house packed full of near-strangers and boozing it up is my sister's (the extrovert) idea of a good weekend, mine is WoW with friends.

Ultimately it's one of those logic puzzle type things. A shy person is always and introvert, but an introvert is not always a shy person.

I think it's cute, like the whole fan language thing of the Rococo era.

Although dropping a card on attractive strangers might be a fine beginning for a suspense book or film, I agree it could be potentially problematic in real life--and I'm speaking as a shy person who has to work up all my courage just to go up to a counterperson in a store. But once I finally open my mouth to speak, I get on a roll and I'm okay. :-)

I"m an introvert. I require alone time periodically to continue to function. I'm not shy, although I was as a kid.

I'm not sure how I feel about this. Marcia Cross found her man by leaving her card with the florist who's shop she saw him in, to give to him if he came back. My neighbor bought every used textbook a guy she had a crush on had to sell in college, till he got the hint and asked her out. They've been married nearly 30 years now. There are all sorts of gambits for people to use, this could be one.

It could also bite you in the heiny via safety among other things. Of course, there are men who would reject you if you walked up and talked to them, so I don't know her rejection from this guy means much.

I just object to the "I'm cooler than your date" ones. That's rude and predatory. If a couple is on a date, leave them alone. How hard up do you have to be to hit on somebody else's guy/girl WHILE they're on a date with them? Might as well start singing that Pussycat Doll song, "Betcha wish your girlfriend was hot like me...." (and stupid bitches do this at clubs). I betcha that's on one of the cards too.

Wow, I am horrible at talking and meeting people, but I am at least smart enough to know this is the equivalent of junk mail. I wonder for every success story how many more failures or how many times was the person never contacted?

I know people say "oh that's cute" no it's only cute when the stranger is handsome and has a great personality and is confident and amazing and has no problem talking to strangers or meeting people, i.e. not the kind of person who would use these cards.

It's like romantic comedies. On tv when the man follows a woman who said "no" to another country and keeps pursuing her until she gives in, people call "romantic." in real life, we call it "stalking."

Both are cute and nice for movies, but in real life the success rate would be much lower.

Certain women get off on it, Amy. They think if he'll turn his attention away from you - a hot, beautiful woman - that makes them even hotter.

"...and I'm speaking as a shy person who has to work up all my courage just to go up to a counterperson in a store."

I have friends in the auto parts business who are also science nerds. Did you know that for every person, there is an equal and opposite counterperson?

Heh.

> This seems like another side effect of the
> whole Blackberry/Internet culture.

You can blame technology if you want, but if we're going to go after the Usual Suspects, I'd tag the divorce culture for crippling young people's faith in their ability to pair well.

(And I assume this is all about young people. Hard to imagine anyone after their 23rd birthday could score with this technique. If you're old enough to be buying your own peanut butter and toilet paper, you oughta be able to approach other adults in a serious way. I liked Amélie a lot, but it's 17 minutes too long... Eventually you want her just to talk to the guy. Or blow him or whatever.)

> Ultimately it's one of those logic puzzle type
> things. A shy person is always and introvert,
> but an introvert is not always a shy person.

Too wordy, too precious a distinction. Better: Ultimately, if you want to be intimate with someone, you're going to have to present yourself to them in a direct and vulnerable way.

> That's rude and predatory.

But is it "tacky"? Jeez, hard to believe anyone would bring an aggressive mentality to human bonding, ain't it? Love is a marketplace, and people are always looking for hidden value. Others want to give it to them.

It's just marketing and even a well package, quality product can use a little help in a competitive world. OTOH, the examples cited seem pretty cheeky to me. Not at all what I'd do nor what I'd hope for from a woman seriously interested in meeting me. OTGH, I have never been swamped by dating opportunities so maybe my expectations are out of line with reality.

"It was just a little intimidating to cross the room."

Doubleyew. Tee. Eff. This woman is a lawyer-- a professional, educated person who heads a company and thus presumably has to talk in front of people on a regular basis. So... did she not realize, upon hearing her own words come out of her mouth, just how stupid that sounds?

This opinion brought to you by an introvert with social anxiety. I am on meds, but they don't do much other than take the edge off, and therefore my mantra in life continues to be, "Suck it up, buttercup!" In the long run, talking to people is one hundred percent less trouble than avoiding.

Eh. I can't fault people for finding new ways to meet people. If it works, it'll stick around. In the meantime, the rest of us can yell at these kids to get off our damn lawn.

grabbed me and kissed me

I think this is where I'm futzing things up. What is the etiquette on that? is there etiquette on that???

Amy-If you are looking for a way to make more income, you could teach modern day girls how to flirt.

They seem to be clueless as to the skillful art of flirting.

It seems to be a lost art. You could revive this lost art and I think a lot of women would really appreciate it.

I think that the majority of modern women in our society are clueless about men because they get so much misinformation and disinformation in regards to men.

You could charge x amount of dollars per class or seminar. Just an idea.

Consider the words of "Melissa G at July 23, 2010 8:45 AM"

>>And I assume this is all about young people. Hard to imagine anyone after their 23rd birthday could score with this technique.

The article was about "Ms. Bernstein, a former government lawyer who now heads the philanthropy company Manthropy" who would be wildly accomplished for a 23 year old, and if she was an accomplished 23 year old, I would gather that she would be bold enough to walk across the room and say hi.

I remember when I was in college, guys used to ask me what the best pick up line was. My response was always "Hi" or "Hello". Why do you need a gimmick to talk to someone?

One time, someone come across to give me a card with his friend's number on it, telling me that the friend was too shy to come talk to me. My response: if he's not bold enough to talk to me, he's not someone I want to be with.

Are we becoming so desperate that we want people to drop a card in our lap and run away, therefore leaving it for us to chase them down? It's just weird.

I agree with plutosdad, it would be cute coming from a cute guy, but if it was someone ugly, they would call it creepy.

"I agree with plutosdad, it would be cute coming from a cute guy, but if it was someone ugly, they would call it creepy." NicoleG

yeah, throughout, I've been thinking the people most likely to use this sort of thing, probably don't need help. "I'm hotter than your date"? Uh, since when do hot women need this kind of assist? And I have no doubt that this is a girl thing, because if a guy did this, he would seem to lack confidence that he wasn't willing to step up to the plate himself. Even though sometimes that plate is a guillotine, it's all you man.

Basically this sounds like a good business op. in 'inventing' a percieved need and making a buck on it. If it takes off for them, hey, more power to them.

So they are offering studding cards with a link instead of an email address and/or phone #? I guess thought of how to use them is a little different. The studding card was that you would have quick conversation with them before giving it to them. Like in the line at the grocery store...chat for second while you wait then give her the card with something like "I enjoyed chatting with you, I would like to get together with you sometime." Basically, it is business card only for personal use.

I had them for awhile and I don't remember anything ever coming of them.

As many have said before me, the problem with gimmicks like these is that they work for the really attractive people who don't need them, don't help for the average folks, and seem creep from the less desirable.

"I remember when I was in college, guys used to ask me what the best pick up line was. My response was always "Hi" or "Hello"."

I cry your worship's mercy, heartily: I beseech your
worship's name.

I'm not remotely shy, as anyone who knows me in real life can attest, and I can talk to anyone. But sometimes, holding back a little is more flirtatious.

I once dated a guy that I met because he ran by the house every night, and my room mate and I sat on the stoop with beers and hollered at the guys as they ran by. Not subtle, but effective.

I worry about government lawyers who are afraid to speak to others, though.

You get what you give, folks. Life just works this way.

Putting aside the lack of effort, or self centered qualities that would make up this woman's client base...Let us imagine for a moment, the type of woman (or man) who would accept an invitation from a guy (or girl) who gives her (him) a card saying "I'm hotter than your date".

And when these relationships get stupid, and these people come crying to Amy for advice concerning their relationship woes we can all recite in unison Crid's favorite mantra:

"These people find each other"

Wow, I am horrible at talking and meeting people

Join the club. Today, I said something to a woman that I thought would please her, but I saw her expression and thought "uh-oh" and now, I wish I'd never said that. I have visions of restraining orders and a canceled gym membership flying around my head.

Nonetheless, I'm not going to use fucking calling cards to meet a woman. If I'm interested in a woman, I'll talk to her face-to-face...well, I'll try to talk to her, anyhow. Besides, I'm not cute enough to get away with that calling card shit.

As many have said before me, the problem with gimmicks like these is that they work for the really attractive people who don't need them, don't help for the average folks, and seem creep from the less desirable.

It's stuff like this that makes me wish, sometimes, that we were all born blind. We'd still have a sense of smell/"sixth sense", of course, so that we could still steer clear of truly horrible people. :-)

> There are times you just have to let opportunities
> go by, to be a decent human being. Not
> approaching a guy with a date would
> be one of them.

Listen, y'all are to be admired for thinking of decency first. Seriously.

But as long as we're not talking about people with kids, ya gotta understand that a lot of folks meet the love of their life while in the company of a third. It's brutal out there, and it's supposed to be.

They write songs about this.

(And some of the best are instrumentals. I always thought of this phrase as being the last words from a poor sap before he figures out that she's not into him anymore.)

> I cry your worship's mercy, heartily: I beseech
> your worship's name.

Or, "'Sup, Niblets?"

"It's brutal out there, and it's supposed to be."

I'm hotter than your date?

I think when someone really feels the power, they're going to be doing the math anyway. Another song said: Might as well face it....

Crid, you know I love ya...but Robert Palmer?

If there is one lesson I've learned to pay attention to in life (while often times missing the mark), it to not be so reactive to those compulsive feelings. Especially where the circumstances require pushing and forcing my own intended outcome.

It never ends pretty.

I guess if I really felt the connection, if the moment arose where the date had left the scene for awhile I may say something like "How serious are you two?" If it was his sister or he was on a first date - I may consider pushing a bit more. That also could backfire. I might look like to him like a lecher, in a bad way.

Right, yes, I hear you. But we have to assume that everyone's being a grown up. (Again, parents are exempt.) This isn't meant to encourage women to respond to people they shouldn't respond to...

But it's not like anyone's asking, anyway. I believe in decency and courtesy and grooming, but we always gotta remember that people want what they want. All the principles and manners and dignity and decency in the world aren't going to stop adults from getting hurt... Often more than once, and often when they thought they were too old to be at risk. It's a way to know you're still growing.

Ignore the video... It's just a video. But the last time I got duh-stupid hurt by a woman, the roaring good cheer of this song reminded me to get over myself. Weeks later I met the love of my life.

They blot the sun to black at the bottom of the pack....

I'm amazed that Crid admits love can be that messy. For sure, people can find themselves feeling chemistry with others in their company, whether appropriate or not. I've found myself attracted to, and been the object of attraction from, friends of people I've dated. But this usually follows some conversation and passage of time where these feelings develop, certainly before anyone acts on them.

Yet, the idea here is to spot some attractive guy out on a date and give him a card proclaiming you're better than the person he's with.

I agree that anyone who would accept that sort of invitation (or extend it) isn't likely to be a good long-term partner.

Besides, he could be with his sister. Now, that could make the "how we met story" very akward during family dinners.

> Ultimately it's one of those logic puzzle type
> things. A shy person is always and introvert,
> but an introvert is not always a shy person.

Too wordy, too precious a distinction. Better: Ultimately, if you want to be intimate with someone, you're going to have to present yourself to them in a direct and vulnerable way.

Crid -the main distinction between ext. and intr. is that introverts get drained from being around people too long. and extroverts get energized.
I'm not shy in most instances, as long as the other person will talk back.
More to follow.

Really interesting stuff, Amy.

> introverts get drained from being around people
> too long. and extroverts get energized.

Listen, I hear ya. I'm a longtime subscriber to Diffidence Weekly.

> Again, shyness is fear and shame-based.

Grandiose, simplistic. There you go with your sunny sociobio erector set again. Everything's chirpy and pat...

It would be interesting to know the background history of introverts when applying it to the brain scans.

From my own experience, I started out pretty much an extrovert and became shy and introverted. Now, just introverted. If I get paired up with an extrovert or I am in a crowded lowed place I tend to withdraw big time. And I completely check-out if it get's too over the top for me (dissociate), although, this is something that can be directly correlated to my PTSD.

When I became aware of this (and what it is tied to) I am able to be better prepared when encountering people or situations that get overstimulating and take the appropriate steps necessary to alleviate some of that discomfort. A big part of that is doing those things anyway - and to leave myself with options (like, "this time I'll only be with this person or in this place for an hour - next time maybe two). Eventually, I have been told, the brain will reorganize neurologically by exposure and adaptation.

It may not ever be 100% back to normal, but it will get better. Mind over matter? Dunno, I'll let you know how it goes! :)

I guess it would be interesting to see research if this is more environmental than a biological/chemical thing people are born with.

Doh, loud not lowed. Ha!

I never thought about the difference between shy and introverted, but it definitely makes sense. I'm the opposite of Gregg-an extrovert who used to be really shy as a kid, mostly because I was overweight and nerdy. The shyness went away around the age of 12-13 as I became more confident and attractive, but extroversion is always how I've been hardwired-I need to be around people to charge my batteries and get drained and depressed if I go more than 24 hours without social contact.

I can hear florecent lights buzzing, incandecents on a dimmer have a ringing quality, picture tubes in old tvs too

> It's not sociobiology, it's straight
> biological research.

Oh Puh-leeeeze. Puh-fucking-leeeeeeeeeeze.

There is no depth to human character, no wrinkle in animal identity to which you will not assign a dismissive, curt, easily-digested, and pathetically-misleading explanation. Yours is a Universe without mysteries or conundra: You'd just hate to have to say, about something important and meaningful to people, 'I don't know'.

Waist-to-hips! Waist-to-hips!

Well, you know crid, only HE is allowed to assign simple explinations for human behavior.

By the way crid, werent you the one who said, or at the very least agreed that there was no mystery in how abuse victims wound up with their abusers?

And at the risk of reopening that can of worms you never did explain how my sister and I sought out our abuser, and all before the age og eight too.

Right! Right! You can see people's dearest, most complicated interior states right there on the MRI! You can read 'em right off the microscope!

There are wires! "The research" can see 'em, right down to the pit of your immortal soul! The matter is closed! Really nothing more to say....

Wiring!

> werent you the one who said, or at
> the very least agreed that there was
> no mystery in how abuse victims wound
> up with their abusers?

Nope, musta been someone else. Never said anything of the kind. If you want to dispute this, do some research and get back to us.

Lou, do you really think the topic back there was children being abused by parents? Do children choose their parents as adults choose spouses?

"Right! Right! You can see people's dearest, most complicated interior states right there on the MRI! You can read 'em right off the microscope!"

I don't see where anyone is saying that.

One has a group of people who self identify as x, and another group of people who self identify as y, and when you look at their brains when exposed to z stimulus, they are different.

That's nature over nurture, and it's one of the most basic ongoing questions in the observations of behavior. It's fascinating.

Anyone interested in the graphing of the brain in response to stimulus could do worse than to read:

http://www.amazon.com/This-Your-Brain-Music-Obsession/dp/0525949690

Yeah, Amy loves those colored lights! She looks straight into your soul with 'em! No more mysteries in there! "Fear and shame" in the red splotch....

"Introversion has been seen as a character flaw. It's not. The research helps make that clear. Gregg, for example, would rather have his toes gnawed off by squirrels than go to a party, but he doesn't fear strangers -- (borrowing from Bukowski) he just likes them better when they aren't around."

Thanks again for stating my own thoughts with humor!
I love people and have a high tolerance for annoying behavior. I overlook the irritating behavior of others,even while they feel justified in pointing out mine.
However, people exhaust me after a few hours, sometimes minutes, and I have to flee. As a good friend once said, "You sure never want to wear out your welcome!"
Too much noise, shrill voices, flashing lights,"fun" and hilarity, wear me down. I don't know how anyone with a brain could call that a character flaw. Amy, Greg is lucky to have you. It's great when opposites attract, then continue to get, and appreciate, each other.
---and Crid, Why are you so ANGRY? I missed something----

"Introversion has been seen as a character flaw. It's not. The research helps make that clear. Gregg, for example, would rather have his toes gnawed off by squirrels than go to a party, but he doesn't fear strangers -- (borrowing from Bukowski) he just likes them better when they aren't around."

Thanks again for stating my own thoughts with humor!
I love people and have a high tolerance for annoying behavior. I overlook the irritating behavior of others,even while they feel justified in pointing out mine.
However, people exhaust me after a few hours, sometimes minutes, and I have to flee. As a good friend once said, "You sure never want to wear out your welcome!"
Too much noise, shrill voices, flashing lights,"fun" and hilarity, wear me down. I don't know how anyone with a brain could call that a character flaw. Amy, Greg is lucky to have you. It's great when opposites attract, then continue to get, and appreciate, each other.
---and Crid, Why are you so ANGRY? I missed something----

"Introversion has been seen as a character flaw. It's not. The research helps make that clear. Gregg, for example, would rather have his toes gnawed off by squirrels than go to a party, but he doesn't fear strangers -- (borrowing from Bukowski) he just likes them better when they aren't around."

Thanks again for stating my own thoughts with humor!
I love people and have a high tolerance for annoying behavior. I overlook the irritating behavior of others,even while they feel justified in pointing out mine.
However, people exhaust me after a few hours, sometimes minutes, and I have to flee. As a good friend once said, "You sure never want to wear out your welcome!"
Too much noise, shrill voices, flashing lights,"fun" and hilarity, wear me down. I don't know how anyone with a brain could call that a character flaw. Amy, Greg is lucky to have you. It's great when opposites attract, then continue to get, and appreciate, each other.
---and Crid, Why are you so ANGRY? I missed something----

> Why are you so ANGRY?

I dislike people! Especially ones who post comments TWICE!

GRRRR! Rrrroowll!

"Introversion has been seen as a character flaw. It's not. The research helps make that clear. Gregg, for example, would rather have his toes gnawed off by squirrels than go to a party, but he doesn't fear strangers -- (borrowing from Bukowski) he just likes them better when they aren't around."

Thanks again for stating my own thoughts with humor!
I love people and have a high tolerance for annoying behavior. I overlook the irritating behavior of others,even while they feel justified in pointing out mine.
However, people exhaust me after a few hours, sometimes minutes, and I have to flee. As a good friend once said, "You sure never want to wear out your welcome!"
Too much noise, shrill voices, flashing lights,"fun" and hilarity, wear me down. I don't know how anyone with a brain could call that a character flaw. Amy, Greg is lucky to have you. It's great when opposites attract, then continue to get, and appreciate, each other.
---and Crid, Why are you so ANGRY? I missed something----

"Introversion has been seen as a character flaw. It's not. The research helps make that clear. Gregg, for example, would rather have his toes gnawed off by squirrels than go to a party, but he doesn't fear strangers -- (borrowing from Bukowski) he just likes them better when they aren't around."

Thanks again for stating my own thoughts with humor!
I love people and have a high tolerance for annoying behavior. I overlook the irritating behavior of others,even while they feel justified in pointing out mine.
However, people exhaust me after a few hours, sometimes minutes, and I have to flee. As a good friend once said, "You sure never want to wear out your welcome!"
Too much noise, shrill voices, flashing lights,"fun" and hilarity, wear me down. I don't know how anyone with a brain could call that a character flaw. Amy, Greg is lucky to have you. It's great when opposites attract, then continue to get, and appreciate, each other.
---and Crid, Why are you so ANGRY? I missed something----

> Why are you so ANGRY?

I dislike people! Especially ones who post comments TWICE!

GRRRR! Rrrroowll!

Try 4 times! Yaaaah!
That would piss off anyone. Sorry.
The damn thing didn't respond, so I submitted again-
so sue me.
(witty come-back)

Crid, you were the one who added child abuse to the discussion when you gave us just one day to get over it and ridiculed me across a number of threads for saying your views on the subject were a tad inFLEXable.

> you gave us just one day to get over it

I had no idea the scope of my moral teachings were such an authoritative force in your life, Lou.

> and ridiculed me across a number of threads
> for saying your views on the subject were
> a tad inFLEXable.

And that "ridicule" will continue here, except it's not ridicule and never was.

The topic back there was adults who choose bad partners. Some folks think it could happen to anyone, because these guys give no warning. But I think people choose each other for personal qualities that aren't always pretty, tempted by patterns of darkness and light which aren't apparent to those nearby. "I'll never know what she sees in that man!" is a sentence you've almost certainly heard verbatim from a woman in your life, perhaps more than once.

And as noted back there, lots of people get bad vibes from someone they're dating and step away, or are truly deceived by someone for a short time but then move quickly toward a brighter future. When people stay with monsters for a long time, or repeatedly find themselves with monsters, it's safe to think both parties are getting their needs met.

This doesn't have much to do with kids, I suppose. Some psychology types imply that kids raised in chaos can't feel comfortable in a well-ordered adulthood, and maybe there's something to that.

So, if you're a KID who's been abused (though this was hardly our earlier topic), I'll understand if your first experience out of the gate is bad choice. You'll get some sympathy.

'Cause dude, I'm completely flexible. Whether you were abused as a child or not, you can date whomever you please. I'm not calling the shots, and despite your sarcastic comments, you're not really asking me how to live your life. But I think people who pick bad partners should learn not to do that, and I think they're more likely to learn how from others who don't than from those who do.

So I'm sincerely curious: Where's the inflexibility? What do you want to have happen? Who do you think is going to make your relationships go well if you don't do it for yourself?

Distant strangers, video techs in L.A., are not going to be a factor.

I'll understand if your first experience out of the gate is bad choice. You'll get some sympathy - crid

Bullshit. How many of those people you were breating for their bad choices in partners only made that mistake once?

The truth is you have no idea because you never bothered to ask

> The truth is you have no idea because
> you never bothered to ask

CORRECT!

My interest in the lives of distant people IS NOT INTIMATE. Got it?

I'm flexible. They can do what they want. If they choose to populate their lives with monsters, and not to withdraw when they see how ugly things are going to be, then what am I to do?

Will you answer that, Lou? Who do you think is going to demand something better for you in your intimate relationships?

(Meanwhile, it's by no means certain that a person from a rough childhood will have a rough adulthood as well.)

My interest in the lives of distant people IS NOT INTIMATE. Got it?

Crid, if that were true you wouldnt get so upset while declaring you dont care. In fact if you didnt care you wouldnt have gotten involved in the conversation to begin with

What you want to have happen is: ____________.

?

?

Consistency.

You say you udont care, yet beate people for poor choices even when they were in the process of redily admiting their mistakes and trying to make others understand what to avoid.

You say you dont care, but at the same time you say your willing to let certain people with certyain past a limited allowance, yet you dont bother to find out whether r not the person you are flaming has such a past.

I'm looking for consistency

> they were in the process of redily admiting

If it's happening readily, it's not a process.

> you say your willing to let certain people with
> certyain past a limited allowance

Right. After that I don't want them to pretend the problem is with other people, or with some universal fault of human nature that others aren't troubled with.

> I'm looking for consistency

And this consistency will aid strangers as they compose their relationships? I've been getting in their way? My "flame" is that potent?

Dude.

I got troubles of my own. But they're not Eric's fault, or Flynne's, or Gretchen's.

(Well, they're PARTLY Flynne's fault, but there's no point it making a big deal out of it.)

And this consistency will aid strangers as they compose their relationships? I've been getting in their way? My "flame" is that potent? - crid

First, I thought you didnt care.

Second when people have to spend their time arguing with your basless asumptions of the failings in their charecter rather then carry on with the subject of what they went thru and how they avoided the the same pitfalls the next time thru - then yes you are interfering with the way people form their relationships.

There was a time when I first started getting help that had I run across a person like you I would have withdrawn and stopped trying to get help.

> I thought you didnt care.

I'm fascinated by human nature, not so much by distant individuals... But everyone's like that. If people DID feel detailed personal interest in the lives of strangers, you'd think they were creeps. And you'd be right!

> when people have to spend their
> time arguing

Nobody does: Participation is voluntary, and this is a tiny little sofa in the internet's big lobby.

> your basless asumptions of the
> failings in their charecter

If you're saying we're not all troubled by the same demons, then you and I agree. Ta-da!

> yes you are interfering with the
> way people form their relationships.

If I had that power over other people's choices, many things would be different.

> had I run across a person like you
> I would have withdrawn and stopped
> trying to get help.

I'm an asshole, but not the cause of your distress.

Never said you were the cause of my distress. But your involvment? advice? opinion? in these discussions seems to be nothing more than
1 - you chose poorly
2 - you should have chose better
3 - I'm done now so everybody else stop talking

Doesnt really help other people who want NOT to chose poorly when you are trying to drown out the people who were discussing(NOT COMPLAINING) about their past mistakes