When Do You Intervene?
Leanne Italie and Sue Major Holmes write for the AP that mother slapped her 13-month-old baby across the face on a flight and the flight attendant took her child from her. Another woman was impressed, calling the flight attendant "my hero":
"We live in such a 'mind your own business' and 'I'll sue you for getting involved' society that I feel we're afraid to stand up sometimes for the right thing," said Jen Reynolds, 38, a stay-at-home mom to 15-year-old and 16-month-old boys in Sandwich, Ill.
As I write in my book, I SEE RUDE PEOPLE, it isn't just the times. We actually didn't evolve to be around strangers, let alone tell them what to do. Also, when there are many other people around, there's a chance something called "diffusion of responsibility" happens, where, in a group of many people, no one takes responsibility.
More from the AP story:
Flight attendant Beverly McCurley told officers that she saw the mother hit the child on the face with her open hand while the father yelled at the mother to stop screaming at the girl. She noted the girl had a black eye. The parents said the bruise was from a dog bite.McCurley described the mother as agitated. She said the woman also slapped the baby on the legs and told the child to shut up.
The mother later told police she "popped" the tired tot when the child kicked her, because "when she's screaming and she can't hear me say no, that's the only way I can get her to stop."
The flight attendant said she took the baby and walked to the rear of the plane. She said the father came back, took the child and stood there with her until she fell asleep. The father told McCurley the parents had several arguments about the mother hitting the child.
Have you ever intervened when you saw a child or someone being mistreated? Would you? Under what circumstances?
If is is some mad islamic people fighting among themselves or slapping each other, I will not intervene cause they are ultimaltely will form a united islamic faction to fight against us nonbelievers.
WLIL at August 20, 2010 2:25 AM
From the limited information in the article, it sounds as though the flight attendant acted appropriately.
This sentence in the article bothers me, though: "Acts of aggression against children in public places are often witnessed but frequently ignored"
How often have you witnessed such? I can think of exactly one time that I saw something completely inappropriate.
The government already intervenes far too much in parenting. This incident should not be taken as a reason to let the government involve itself even more deeply in our personal lives.
bradley13 at August 20, 2010 4:27 AM
I was in a mall in the 1970's I was about 12. Some adult had their child about 5 or 6 on a dog leash around the kids neck. I remember some lady did go up and tell them that that is not acceptable to put your child on a dog leash around their neck.
As for this situation I see it all the time at Wal-Mart you have a bitchy, emotional, Mom melting down with their kids and the Dad is the calm orderly one.
And the family courts always perceive that the mom is the better parent.
David M. at August 20, 2010 6:11 AM
It would have to be pretty bad for me to intervene. My fear is always that the act would get worse in private if the parent were embarrassed. The few times I have intervened in public, I usually try to talk to the parent in a way that makes them feel like I'm on their side. I give a sympathetic smile and say something like, "its so hard, isn't it!" then I'll lean down and talk to the kid. Usually that's enough to calm the parent down. I hate seeing parents scream and lose control. I don't know what message they think they're sending those kids.
The most serious case of abuse I witnessed was on a teen. It was a friend of my son and he had been hiding a home that was filthy and a mother who was on drugs and drinking. I saw her hit him and told him to get in my car. I told her to call the police if she wanted but the kid was not staying with her. She called the police who showed up at my house. After speaking to the kid, they admitted to me that they knew of his home but there was nothing they could do and they left him with me. That was over a year ago and he has never gone home.
Kristen at August 20, 2010 6:28 AM
The flight attendant did the right thing. That mother should never have custody of any child ever again.
When I was a child one of my father's students told my dad that she was being sexually abused by her father. My father brought her home and she lived with us for a while.
I have called the police twice to report child abuse. Once, a man left his infant in the car while he went shopping, it was -20 degrees celcius outside. Another time I witnessed a man slap his little girl across the face.
Please note David M. that in all three instances the abuse was perpetrated by a man. Your comment "I see it all the time at Wal-Mart you have a bitchy, emotional, Mom melting down with their kids and the Dad is the calm orderly one." Is your point that the father is no help at all? We all know that most abuse is committed by men. How many people have you heard talk about their mother the abuser compared with father/step-father/uncle as the abuser?
Ingrid at August 20, 2010 7:03 AM
I'd really like to think I'd intervene, but until you're in the situation, how can you be sure? :/
Elle at August 20, 2010 7:14 AM
I'm not sticking my nose in unless it's bad. And by sticking my nose in, I mean calling the police. I don't need a run-in with an irate parent.
My question in this instance is, WTF is wrong with the father? HE could have taken the kid and tried to quiet it, instead of screaming at the mother. And THEN he tells the flight attendant this is an ongoing problem? WTF is HIS problem? Dude, if your wife is hitting your kid, YOU NEED TO STEP UP AND DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT.
Fault lies with both of them, IMHO.
Ann at August 20, 2010 7:14 AM
Ingrid, its not a fair comment to say that most abuse is done at the hands of men. When it comes to child abuse, women can be just as brutal,and often are. It is usually the belief of the court sytem that reunification of a biological parent and child is the best that puts children back in an abusive household. And while I was never one for hitting of any kind, I do recognize the difference between a stressed out parent in a store who swats a kid and someone who is abusive. I don't agree with the swat but would really not consider that person an abuser.
The teen I took from his home had lived a very scary life with his mother. Apparently his father's side of the family was well aware and took off on this kid. Once he lived with me and then in a more permanent home with a close friend, his father's family started to come around. Not one of them offered any form of financial or emotional support to this kid. It had all come from me and another friend. The court personnel actually asked him if it wasn't nice now that his family was coming around. I asked them where'd they'd been all this time.
Kristen at August 20, 2010 7:20 AM
The parents seem ill equipped to have kids - and that's the downfall of freedom of procreation: you can get knocked up without a license :-)
The mother seems like she was having a meltdown, which will make the situation worse. The husband seems like he exacerbated the problem more by yelling at the wife instead of just intervening and taking the kid.
I've never seen anything more than yelling in public. Yelling is almost always done out of frustration and is never affective that way. An open hand slap is pure aggression, loss of control and not going to educate or assuage the kid. I am not anti-spanking when the kid is two years old and runs into the street. But when it's used out of frustration, and all the time, it's ineffective and it's just hitting the kids b/c you aren't handling things.
I just keep thinking of Teresa and Joe from Real Housewives of New Jersey. That family has single-handedly changed my and my fiances plans for children. Before it was: let's wait a couple years and see what happens. Now it's: NO DISCUSSIONS OF KIDS FOR AT LEAST FIVE YEARS.
Gretchen at August 20, 2010 7:33 AM
As for this situation I see it all the time at Wal-Mart you have a bitchy, emotional, Mom melting down with their kids and the Dad is the calm orderly one."
Just a guess (as we've been that family you describe) but I'd say the dad is around the kids maybe 5 awake hours during the week. The mom is around them EVERY awake hour. The dad SHOULD be more calm. Reverse the amount of time spent with them, AND doing the "family work" of drs appts, cleaning, errands etc, and you'd probably see a reversal in the bitchiness too. I know my DH is much more grumpy with the kids on sunday than, say, tuesday.
On topic: I'd intervene in hitting. I have called CPS twice in my life. One on my old neighbors because their 3 year old would wander the street at will, and stank of old urine. Once on someone at my kids school who drinks all the damn time and is the only adult in their house. I found out later she'd had them called on 2 prior occasions, for 2 different reasons, by different people. To me, that means intervention is needed.
momof4 at August 20, 2010 7:46 AM
I think I would intervene, based on past experience. I have never actually been a witness to it.
I called 911 once when some neighbors were fighting. That's because I thought someone was going to be pushed out a window.
Then I went outside to wait for the cops and when a man started leaving the house he caught me writing down his license plate number, (not that I was being subtle about it). When he asked me why I was doing that, I told him to stick around and he'd find out.
Yeah, I'm an idiot. The adrenaline kicks in and things like fear and common sense disappear, but I came from a town full of abusive neanderthals and somehow I've never been hit.
Anyway, in this instance it turned out the guy was just trying to leave a bad situation he got involved in. The combatants were a drunken mother/daughter duo who had brought this guy home from a bar. I hope he learned something.
I've also called about a dog left in the heat, and I informed on a woman who's kids were wandering around in the grocery store parking lot. Really little kids.
So I think I would get involved, but I don't know. I hope I never find out.
Pricklypear at August 20, 2010 8:01 AM
It would have to be pretty bad for me to intervene.
I step in when there's immediate danger, such as the few occasions I've witnessed car accidents, and the people involved needed help. (I used to live on a corner where there were about half a dozen accidents a year. It got so that I could tell how bad the accident was going to be by the squealing of the tires.)
When I was a kid, my mother started getting irritated with me for bringing rattled accident victims into the house to use the phone.
I called the police not that long ago when a bunch of teens were throwing rocks at buses and one of them threatened to rape a passing motorist who'd stopped to confront him when he threw a rock at her car.
MonicaP at August 20, 2010 8:48 AM
"How many people have you heard talk about their mother the abuser compared with father/step-father/uncle as the abuser?"
Me! Both actually, but with my Mother - the physical abuse was daily. And the really bad ones were when my Father wasn't at home. I know many whose parents abused them (my therapy with this involves a support group) and to tell you the truth, I hear just as many stories about men as women as the abusers, and sometimes both.
Yes, I've intervened. It's tricky though, because I believe parents make mistakes. CPS sometimes is hardly better then some parent loosing control every once and a while.
The time I intervened was in an apartment complex. The property manager was an alcoholic and daily pot smoker. She had two children, 7 and 10. She also had a real alcoholic looser of a boyfriend she left them home with a lot. One day I walked past the door to hear bumping (like the little kids were being thrown or held against the wall) screaming, crying, and yelling. The asshole was screaming at the little girl what a "stupid bitch" she was - and more. Horrible, just horrible. These kids were being terrorized while this man just went rip-shit in the apartment.
Due to my history, it is a miracle I did not literally try to break down the door and rip him from limb to limb. I was furious. I also remember my neighbors came out (I was on the phone with the police at this point but refused to leave the area just in case) and said - "ya, that goes on a lot - sad isn't it" - I wanted to lay into her too. I mean, WTF?
The police came. He got arrested and last I heard, the mother lost custody of the children (primarily because she wouldn't get rid of the abusive jerk) and they went to live with their grandparents in Oregon.
It has to be pretty bad for me to intervene. Sometimes, though, I get so triggered (Mama Grizzly type triggered) with these things that it takes a lot of energy to remain calm and rational. I hope it is something I never have to witness or intervene in ever again. It was incredibly heart-wrenching.
Feebie at August 20, 2010 9:18 AM
I've called the cops twice; both were instances of wandering, unsupervised kids. The most recent was a two year old in the rain, no shoes, no jacket, just a diaper and shirt, hanging out on the curb outside my house. He didn't even have the language skills to tell us his name.
The other was back in college, when I lived in a sort of rough neighborhood. Two four year olds were taking bottles out of our recycling bin and breaking them on the curb. They had a shoeless toddler with them, who they blamed the broken glass on when the cops showed up. Turned out they lived in a crackhouse down the block. Nice.
I'm not sure how so many kids are returned tIme and again to places where they obviously suffer from neglect at best, and then everyone shakes their heads and wonders what the world is coming to.
mse at August 20, 2010 9:22 AM
I've never intervened in quite such a direct way, but I have told an abusive mother, "I'm watching, and I'll testify."
Farmer Joe at August 20, 2010 9:35 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2010/08/20/when_do_you_int.html#comment-1744861">comment from Farmer JoeGreat, Farmer Joe.
Amy Alkon at August 20, 2010 10:00 AM
"The husband seems like he exacerbated the problem more by yelling at the wife instead of just intervening and taking the kid. "
Yes. Absolutely. And he is also at fault for allowing the general situtation to persist. he needd to call the cops on her a long time ago.
"but I'd say the dad is around the kids maybe 5 awake hours during the week. The mom is around them EVERY awake hour. The dad SHOULD be more calm. "
Yes. Absolutely. This is why that kind of person, male or female, should be out of the house and in an oustide job. No one should be allowed/forced to be around children for such long periods.
"I'd really like to think I'd intervene, but until you're in the situation, how can you be sure? :/"
If you are in public, call 9-11. Very obviously. Assault and battery in progress, child victim. And if the perp tries to flee the scene, then call again very obviously, with a full description.
Jim at August 20, 2010 10:27 AM
My brother has abused his (now 13-year-old) son most of the kid's life. My mother once witnessed him slam the kid's head into a wall at our aunt's funeral. I didn't see it. They live in another state now, so I don't see anything anymore. When they came in for my mother's funeral, they admitted they were pounding cough syrup like it was soda to get to sleep. A habit he picked up from his father, who will ingest anything he can get his hands on but can't get prescription meds anymore.
People are going to ask why I haven't done anything, and maybe I should, but I'm not sure what. I've never witnessed anything extreme myself. The kid won't admit to anything, because he thinks his father is a god.
My brother has been arrested several times, and nothing ever comes of it except for a little jail time. I talked to my nephew's guidance counselors at school, but they move so often that he's never in one place long enough for people to take an interest. He's borderline illiterate because his mother gave up on trying to get him to go to school. I nearly got hit with a lamp for trying. And, having grown up in a foster home and seen some of the foster families that were less enlightened than my own, I'm not sure he'd be better off there. It's a clusterfuck.
MonicaP at August 20, 2010 10:32 AM
I'm pretty sure I'd intervene. Haven't seen child abuse before, but I've stepped in when adults are fighting...much to my husband's dismay. He's not much bigger than me and is worried he couldn't protect me if they turn on me. I've learned to just make sure they know I'm watching...like Farmer Joe.
I also offer to help people who appear to be in difficulty. I was going into WalMart the other day and could see from the end of the parking lot an elderly man trying and failing to lift a bag of water softening salt into his trunk. I watched three grown men (plus others) walk by and its 5'2", 110lb me that stops to manhandle it into the trunk for him.
Coming out of the store, there was a different very elderly fellow sitting still, all hunched over in his car with the door open in the handicapped spot. People walking by couldn't miss him, but no one checked on him. Fortunatly, he was OK, but his cane was stuck under his seat and he was resting after struggling with it. I yanked it out for him and carried on. People are so surprised when a stranger offers help.
That's sad.
moreta at August 20, 2010 10:32 AM
I did not say 'no abuse happens at the hands of women,' I am well aware of the fact that there are abusive women, but statisticly most instances appear to be perpetrated by men. I have met many people who suffered abuse as a child and in every case I know of it was a male abuser. My comment was in response to a comment that clearly implied that men are the calm controlled parents and women are the parents with a lack of control.
Like momof4 said, the father appears calm because he spends very little time with his children. Further, why is the father's calm demeaner supposedly admirable when clearly the guy is not helping his wife care for their children. The mother would not even be at her wits end if the father was doing his job, which is being a parent not a spectator.
Ingrid at August 20, 2010 11:13 AM
Ingred, I don't know where you are getting your stats but child abuse is committed by women double the rate it is committed by men.
The real shame with this case is if the couple were to divorce, even though she was witnesses abusing the child she would be given custody.
joe at August 20, 2010 11:33 AM
If you want to know whether or not you should do something to intervene, consider this. I'm the oldest of 3, 4 years older than my sister, 6 years older than my brother. My mother beat the living hell out of us constantly, as well as mentally abusing us. Being older than the littles I tried to throw myself in between, to protect them. Sometimes I succeeded, sometimes not, but they don't have as many issues as I do, so I guess I did ok. Fact is, tho, I have a *lot* of problems because of my mother that I probably wouldn't if someone had stopped her. The physical abuse heals, but the *mental* scars take a lot more time, and effort. (I'm in my 40's) So yes, step in if you see a child being abused. If nothing else at least the kid will know somebody is in their corner. That makes a difference.
Kat at August 20, 2010 11:47 AM
"Ingred, I don't know where you are getting your stats but child abuse is committed by women double the rate it is committed by men."
Is that controlled for hours spent in sole care of the child in question? I really doubt it, but if so I'd love to read it. Given that women do more than double the sole-care for little kids, the findings would seem to imply that men do abuse more when given the chance.
momof4 at August 20, 2010 11:57 AM
Joe, that is one of my favorite blog comments ever. Calling someone out on the statistic they pulled from their ass and then reaching down into your own drawers and flinging one back. So rich I won't need to eat lunch today.
smurfy at August 20, 2010 11:57 AM
One thing: The flight attendant was a woman. If that had been a man taking a child away from its mother on a flight, would this debate be continuing? I don't think so. The male FA would have been arrested the moment he got off the plane.
Unless the abuse occurs right in front of me and is serious, I don't want to interfere. It's too dangerous now.
I've been threatened with arrest/lawsuit just for trying to stop a child from getting on a mall escalator by himself. I merely stood in front of it while the child's mom was two stores back. But when she came out...
A friend of mine spent the night in jail because he caught a child who fell off a jungle gym at the park. His daughter was ten feet away. His wife, twenty. The child's mom didn't say a word to them until after she'd called 911. She thought of the police before she thought of her own child.
Chris at August 20, 2010 12:16 PM
My niece is coming to visit tomorrow. When she was 12, her mom died after a long illness. Dad was bad, restraining orders were involved, etc. As a result, the girl was in special ed, had a speech impediment, was on edge all the time, etc. No one at home had ever stepped in. I lived far away but when I arrived for the funeral, I could immediately see what was wrong, took her for ice cream and never took her home, got a lawyer, took months off work, and got that kid free. Today she's 26, newly married, a world traveler, getting her master's in public policy and full of confidence. It's not my doing. It's hers. All I did was show her someone thought she had worth.
If you can, and it's not going to bring harm to you, step in. If you can't stop the parent, just look at the kid and say, "I see you, and I know you are worth something."
elementary at August 20, 2010 12:16 PM
Is your point that the father is no help at all? We all know that most abuse is committed by men. How many people have you heard talk about their mother the abuser compared with father/step-father/uncle as the abuser?
Posted by: Ingrid
Ingrid do you ever invetigate anything? Women commit both physical and sexual abuse far more often then men.
lujlp at August 20, 2010 12:23 PM
Yes. Absolutely. And he is also at fault for allowing the general situtation to persist. he needd to call the cops on her a long time ago.
Posted by: Jim
Right, lets see, Man calls Cops on Wife.
Cops show up, WIfe says "No -its the Man who is abusive"
Cops arrest man.
A man calling the cops on a woman will only get him harrased by the cops.
Thanks to "womens intrests groups" reacting to gender nutral polices for arrest in DV situations, state legislators passed "primary agressor" laws which require cops to arrest the person who has the best capability for inflicting physical and/or monetary punishmnet.
As men are larger then women this results in cops arrest men with knives buried omewhere in there bodies while the women with out so much as a scratch being left in the home and given a restraining order.
lujlp at August 20, 2010 12:32 PM
From wikipedia, which you are free to correct with your own stats Luj (and these figures don't even take into account time spent with children, which for women is way way way higher than it is for men).
Demographics
More offenders are male than female, though the percentage varies between studies. The percentage of incidents of sexual abuse by female perpetrators that come to the attention of the legal system is usually reported to be between 1% and 4%.[95] Studies of sexual misconduct in US schools with female offenders have shown mixed results with rates between 4% to 43% of female offenders.[96] Maletzky (1993) found that, of his sample of 4,402 convicted pedophilic offenders, 0.4% were female.[97] Another study of a non-clinical population found that, among those in the their sample that had been molested, as much as a third were molested by women.[98]
FastFacts at August 20, 2010 12:33 PM
Can and have. But never by calling the state. Foster care, even when your not being abused is worse. I honestly would have rather been left where I was making straight 100's and bloodied up every so often than been put in foster care where I was sexually assaulted be a male foster child, nothing was ever mine and I was hit and screamed at daily. I can't prove it but i am pretty sure dogs in training get treated more humanely than foster kids. You are little more than a paycheck. In my last foster home I wasthe free baby sitter and maid.
If I had been left with my gramma at least I would have had the garden strawberries to make me happy.
josephinemo7 at August 20, 2010 12:41 PM
Is that controlled for hours spent in sole care of the child in question? I really doubt it, but if so I'd love to read it. Given that women do more than double the sole-care for little kids, the findings would seem to imply that men do abuse more when given the chance.
Posted by: momof4
Funny, men are routinly denied visitation and custody due to fear of abuse. The ugly fact the women comit more abuse pops up and the first thing people want to know is - not why, or how to stop it - but 'has that figure been manipualted with math to account for the amount of time women spend with children?'
Sadly the answer is yes - and women still comit more abuse.
Now FastFacts - funny thing about wikipedia, you can never be sure of the sources. Not saying their wrong, just wondering if the page you looked at was based on conviction rates thru the criminal justice system or the thousands of studies which interview individuals rather than compiling spreedsheet info from the criminal justice system
lujlp at August 20, 2010 12:43 PM
Joe wrote: "Ingred, I don't know where you are getting your stats but child abuse is committed by women double the rate it is committed by men."
momof4 wrote: Is that controlled for hours spent in sole care of the child in question? I really doubt it, but if so I'd love to read it. Given that women do more than double the sole-care for little kids, the findings would seem to imply that men do abuse more when given the chance.
---------
I just looked it up, I was wrong and so is Joe. Women do not commit double the rate of abuse (as Joe stated), they commit the same level of abuse - the stats I looked at noted that this is so despite the fact that women are twice as likely to the be main or sole care-giver (as momof4 wisely noted). So it seems I am not the only one who does not check facts. Right Smurfy?
Smurfy, despite your snarky comment you too are in the wrong as you didn't bother to look up the facts either, which makes you a hypocrite.
Ingrid at August 20, 2010 12:52 PM
I'm interested in seeing the stats y'all are looking at. Got links?
MonicaP at August 20, 2010 1:06 PM
Luj - I haven't seen the wikipedia page for child abuse, but if it was wildly inaccurate, surely one of the outraged men who blame women for all evil on this site would have stopped over there to correct it. Surely you've got the studies to back you up.
Child abuse sucks, whether it's committed by men or women. But it's ridiculous to cling to the premise that "ooh ooh women do it more" without taking into account the reality of who is getting up with those kids, cooking for those kids, doing homework with those kids, making sure those kids bathe, raising those kids and -- yes -- getting frustrated in an absolutely wrongheaded way with those kids.
I bet women hug their children twice as much as men do, too -- because they're with them more than twice as much. Impressive.
And inaction is action. A father who stands by and lets his kids be harmed for fear of what will happen to him if he calls the cops is no father at all. He's a weenie and his own sort of abuser.
elementary at August 20, 2010 1:10 PM
Ingrid, the proper reply starts with
smurfy at August 20, 2010 1:18 PM
grr, always preview. It cut off the example href tag.
Back on topic now that I've had lunch: which way do you want it Amy, are we supposed to shut the brat up on the plane or not?
smurfy at August 20, 2010 1:25 PM
Ah, these posts never fail to confirm the fact that we're all messed up.
I forgot to mention earlier, the times I've tried to assist my friends when they had just been through one more round with their men.
I grew up in a factory town, and my friends were pretty tough girls (Not me, I was a wuss. Can you say "protective coloration"?).
I left as soon as I could, but not before seeing what they went through, and what they did in return.
Those folks are...interesting. One of my friends sprayed her husband's hairy butt with Nair while he was passed out. I was present at a party where this same woman pushed her husband's buttons even after he flat-out warned her he would "punch her out" if she kept on.
She kept on, and he punched her in the jaw. (Now you might think I should have called the cops and had him arrested. Nope. She would have killed me. She was like a lot of women who will turn on you if you try to break up a fight.)
No, all I could do was leave that whole stupid state behind. I miss the red maples and the fireflies, that's about it.
Pricklypear at August 20, 2010 2:17 PM
Please note David M. that in all three instances the abuse was perpetrated by a man. Your comment "I see it all the time at Wal-Mart you have a bitchy, emotional, Mom melting down with their kids and the Dad is the calm orderly one." Is your point that the father is no help at all? We all know that most abuse is committed by men. How many people have you heard talk about their mother the abuser compared with father/step-father/uncle as the abuser?
Posted by: Ingrid at August 20, 2010 7:03 AM
------------------------------------------
Ingrid 3 cases and you are making a judgement.
Department of justice statistics report that women abuse and kill more children as well as neglect more children. Look it up in the latest Dept. of justice statistics don't take my word for it. Society and the media don't like portraying women as abusers. They like to portray them as victims.
Don't drink the cool-aid.
David M. at August 20, 2010 2:18 PM
She kept on, and he punched her in the jaw. (Now you might think I should have called the cops and had him arrested. Nope. She would have killed me. She was like a lot of women who will turn on you if you try to break up a fight.)
It's like some kind of twisted foreplay
I had friends that used to fight a lot too, just to fight (divorced)
they need drama to keep things going & will do anything to feel *something* right or wrong
MeganNJ at August 20, 2010 2:33 PM
To me it seemed more like lancing a boil. Letting the poison out for awhile. Because after that, everything was fine. Til next time.
Of course I think it's wrong to hit a woman. I'm a woman, and I've never been in an abusive relationship. (Of course, it might have helped, growing up, that my attitude was always "If you hit me, you'd better make it a good one, because I will wait til you're asleep and break a lamp on your head before I leave".)
But, damn, she just kept pushing and pushing until she got the result she seemed to be looking for.
Abnormal psychology just fascinates me.
And oh yeah, they never abused the kids. Four of them, all boys, before she was twenty-two. I have no idea how they turned out.
Pricklypear at August 20, 2010 3:26 PM
Ingrid: We all know that most abuse is committed by men.
I find it infuriating that this appears on a report of bad behavior by a woman. I understand the mechanism well enough. Cognitive dissonance evokes a protective tribal chant. An ugly, hateful, unwarranted tribal chant. A misandric tribal chant.
Let me be clear. It's a tribal chant because first, it is a direct invocation of solidarity; promising social support, threatening social reprisal. It's a tribal chant because it is contrary to well known facts. It's a tribal chant because it's emitted in the presence of bad information to make the bad information go away. I am so tired of this shit. Why aren't you ashamed to do that in public?
http://glennsacks.com/blog/?p=4959
Opponents of shared parenting rely, to the exclusion of almost all else, on the notion that fathers are dangerous to their children. Many of the examples they point to, on closer examination, turn out to be utterly without merit. Glenn Sacks has exposed several such cases over the years including the Genia Shockome case, the Sadie Loliger case and others. But it's beyond question that some fathers indeed harm their children.
But mothers do too. Indeed, the Administration for Children and Families logs statistics on child abuse and neglect in the United States every year. That data show that, when 'mother only' abuse and neglect is compared to 'father only' abuse and neglect, mothers invariably commit at least twice as much as fathers do.
phunctor at August 20, 2010 4:16 PM
"Sadly the answer is yes - and women still comit more abuse."
Cite please. By that I mean, cite the study that controls for time spent with children, that shows women commit more abuse per childcare hour than men. Apparently you've read it, let the rest of us do so to.
momof4 at August 20, 2010 4:40 PM
Actually, phunctor, I believe David M. sent the comments in that direction with his ridiculous post full of woman-hating generalizations -- where the passive dad who's doing nothing to help the mom or calm the kids is the hero of his story. Yeah, right. It takes a real man to sit back and do nothing.
And, ditto: Cite please for a study that controlled for time spent.
elementary at August 20, 2010 4:57 PM
And inaction is action. A father who stands by and lets his kids be harmed for fear of what will happen to him if he calls the cops is no father at all. He's a weenie and his own sort of abuser.
My mom and her sister were abused, physically and verbally, by their mother, while their father did nothing but go out to the back porch and have a smoke.
I vote for voting this kind of thing a total parental failure, and stop worrying about which chromosome combination the parents had. They both failed.
No, all I could do was leave that whole stupid state behind. I miss the red maples and the fireflies, that's about it.
Pricklypear, you continue to rock. Don't underestimate the fireflies, though. If you ride a bike, come to Iowa and do Ragbrai with some pirates. You'll enjoy the fireflies, but without the crazyville.
Pirate Jo at August 20, 2010 5:34 PM
There are two types of fathers who do nothing in public when their wives are abuseive to children - there are those like mine who also do nothing at home, and there are those who insert themselves in the situation and draw ther wives abuse onto themselves.
Given the general attitude of most americans and even the select(for the most part) far more reasonable and ration people on this board(mostly women in this instance I notice) - is it really any wonder that the second group of men dont try to get help?
Half of you would reflexivly agree with the woman when she attempts to pass of her abuse as his and given the laws on the books the men would be arrested regardless.
And what the fuck do you idiots think is going to happen to those kids when the only real buffer between them and abuse is gone?
As for the studies? FUCK YOU. I've posted them before, hell I've posted links dozens of times ever since I got here years ago. Links to studies, links to crime statitics, links to news stories and viticms websites. You all have obviously never read them or decided to ignore them anyway.
You want links? Amy's got a permant link to Glenn Sacks site and he's been collecting and storeing links for years - do your own damn homework, its allready been put in a pile for you all you have to do is read it
lujlp at August 20, 2010 6:30 PM
I will stop as a "first responder" for an accident, etc. I've even taken the time to lean on the hood of my car and smoke; semi-watching a couple argue in a wally world parking lot.
But at the same time when I go to a store, I'm going for a reason. Not to meander and people watch.
If I were to see something amiss I would at least watch and call -- the active intervention depends on the situation.
Jim P. at August 20, 2010 7:11 PM
And, ditto: Cite please for a study that controlled for time spent.
Why? In what way is this relevant to my objection to the hideous propaganda "We all know that most abuse is committed by men"?
I pointed out it isn't. I cited a source. He cited his source, an agency of the USG.
To respond to this factual report by changing the subject to a plea in mitigation of women's offences (no mitigation being relevant or even possible for male offenders, as we all know) is revealing. Again, why aren't you ashamed to demonstrate this hateful bias in public?
Child neglect and abuse by whomever is revolting. As is rampant and unapologetic misandry.
"Misandry" is a word unknown to the spellchecker here. It is to laff.
--
phunctor
phunctor at August 20, 2010 7:59 PM
Thank you, Pirate Jo, I would never underestimate fireflies. Finding out about one species cracking the other species code so they could attract and eat them blew me away. (Sorta fit my home town, too.)
I had to look up Ragbrai and it sounds like a lot of fun, but it's been a lot of years since my last bike ride. Major butthurt. I'm most comfortable walking.
In the picture everyone is wearing helmets. Do you have a group that dresses in pirate gear? My best friend in Washington is part of a pirate group. They do ship battles, the whole deal. I was thinking the bike helmets were probably adaptable to some piratical disguises, if it's allowed.
Pricklypear at August 20, 2010 8:20 PM
Get involved? Me, a middle-age white male with no children of my own? Sorry, I already know how that movie ends. If there's a woman or a child involved, I stay the hell out of it. It is what it is. If you want me to behave differently, get the laws changed and give me a motivation.
Cousin Dave at August 20, 2010 8:44 PM
This is an extremely double-sided situation. It is obvious that what the mother had done to her child was wrong, but the flight attendant had no right to take her child from her. If there was bruises on the baby social servies could ahve investigated a case for abuse, and THEN the baby should be taken away from her mother. I want to be on the flight attendant's side on this, because the baby was a defenseless little human that wasn't doing anything wrong and the mother was very out of line to hit her, but that doesn't mean that people should go an take away peoples' children because they think what the parents are doing is wrong.
timbap_ajs
timbap_ajs at August 20, 2010 11:06 PM
"One thing: The flight attendant was a woman. If that had been a man taking a child away from its mother on a flight, would this debate be continuing? I don't think so. The male FA would have been arrested the moment he got off the plane."
Very doubtful. FAs are not just sky-waiters, their primary job is safety and security of the passengers. Stopping an assault - even one disguised as discipline - is part of their job description. Now if Joe Schmoe had taken it upon himself to remove the child, then you're right, there could have been a lot of trouble. And it was prudent to err on the side of safety and have the baby removed by a female FA.
"but the flight attendant had no right to take her child from her. "
This is a goddamned airplane. It's a metal tube at 30,000 feet. It's not like like the FA went vigilante and swooped in to steal the child away for parts unknown. She physically removed the victim from the abuser, moving at most 150 feet from her. What should the FA have done, stood over the mother and tutt-tutted her until the father returned and see if he would stop it now? Should she have ziptied the mother's hands to the armrests?
Seriously, you'd just sit there and watch someone smack an infant around and then make a fuss when someone tried to move the kid to safety? Holy fucking shit, you have fucked up priorities. This isn't "I think it's wrong to hit babies but that's my values and I'm not going to impose them on someone else." Hitting babies is OBJECTIVELY WRONG. This is not double-sided. Hitting babies is about as one-sided as a situation be. What the hell is wrong with you?
Elle at August 20, 2010 11:32 PM
Oh for pete's sake, here ya go Smurfy and Ingrid et. al.:
From 2007:
http://www.acf.hhs.gov/programs/cb/pubs/cm07/table3_15.htm
US Gov., the vaunted Health and Human services with stats, it took me 5 mins to find it. Based on data from 46 states.
For the lazy:
Mother 269,330 38.7
Mother and Other 39,977 5.7
Father 124,761 17.9
Father and Other 6,235 0.9
Mother and Father 116,788 16.8
Mother alone is 39% rounded up vs 18% rounded up. More than double.
Sio at August 21, 2010 10:58 AM
Momof4's point is dead on. When you adjust for the amount of time spent in the control of children, men commit FAR more child abuse.
http://www.thelizlibrary.org/liz/statistics.html
Gail at August 23, 2010 9:14 AM
" men commit FAR more child abuse."
...who are, acording to the stats, boyfriends and step-fathers, in the child's life due to the mother, and therefroe the mother's responsibility.
Compare like with like - mothers with fathers. Not with the mother's shack-ups. Mothers commit far more abuse than fathers.
"And inaction is action. A father who stands by and lets his kids be harmed for fear of what will happen to him if he calls the cops is no father at all. He's a weenie and his own sort of abuser."
An abuser and a pussy-whipped mangina. He should call the cops on the abuser's ass, let her rot in jail until trial - why should family money be used on her bail bond - and then do tearful news conferences about the danger she poses to his children, day in and day out, until a mob in front of the courthouse intimidates the jury into convicting.
"And, ditto: Cite please for a study that controlled for time spent."
Elementary, your disgusting attempt to excuse child abuse is noted, but it also pretty much forces you to admit that if time spent is the causal factor, then mothers' time spent with children should be reduced. Doesn't it?
"Yes. Absolutely. And he is also at fault for allowing the general situtation to persist. he needd to call the cops on her a long time ago.
Posted by: Jim
Right, lets see, Man calls Cops on Wife.
Cops show up, WIfe says "No -its the Man who is abusive"
Cops arrest man."
Well, yes, Luj - that is how it works out generally, generally because the police are a bunch of chivalrous thumb heads who think these little women are dainty little abuse victims, all the time. The legal regime is discriminatory. And most women are so blinded by their female privilege that they can't see this and deny it ever happens. Look at the shit Amy catches for this, called misogynist and worse. Watch it start up right here on this thread now.
Jim at August 23, 2010 2:31 PM
Nice work Gail, I mean why look at the most recent federal governments complied numbers for the whole United States when we can look at 15 year old numbers as interperited by the "Dasterdly Dads Blog"
Yaeh Good work there Gail
lujlp at August 24, 2010 5:38 AM
Just a guess (as we've been that family you describe) but I'd say the dad is around the kids maybe 5 awake hours during the week. The mom is around them EVERY awake hour. The dad SHOULD be more calm. Reverse the amount of time spent with them, AND doing the "family work" of drs appts, cleaning, errands etc, and you'd probably see a reversal in the bitchiness too. I know my DH is much more grumpy with the kids on sunday than, say, tuesday. Posted by: momof4 at August 20, 2010 7:46 AM
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I think a lot of this can be attributed to parenting styles. A lot of the women I see have trouble nurturing and being the disciplinarian. Therefore, I see a lot of moms becoming frustrated because they ask the kids several times to behave. Then they start counting. "I'm going to count to three." They may bribe. They start threatening and all the while the child acts like they don't even hear them. Then the mom becomes so frustrated she melts down.
Dads are more likely to handle the situation immediately and save all the stress that comes from asking numerous times, begging, pleading, bribing, and the eventually melt down.
I have seen many Dads undermined by their spouses for being the disciplinarian and bringing order to an otherwise chaotic situation.
David M. at August 24, 2010 7:05 AM
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