Imam Rauf On "The Religion Of Peace"
Robert W. pointed me to this link by Atlas Shrugs, about the violence Rauf said, on CNN, will come, if Muslims don't get their way on the building by Ground Zero:
"If we don't do this right, anger will explode in the Muslim world," Rauf said. "... If we don't handle this crisis correctly, it could become something very dangerous indeed."This crisis could become much bigger than the Danish Cartoon crisis which resulted in attacks on Danish embassies in various parts of the Muslim world [and hundreds of non-Muslims were slaughtered]
The Danish cartoon jihad was a crisis manufactured by the OIC (Organization of Islamic Conference) months after the Danish cartoons had actually run in order to impose the sharia/blasphemy laws on the non-Muslim world. Now it has become the operational threat template for Islamic supremacism.
He said moving the project to another location would strengthen Islamist radicals' ability to recruit followers and will increase violence against Americans.
This is based on the false assumption that they are fighting us because we are doing things they don't like. Actually they are fighting us because of imperatives within the Islamic faith. They will never like us unless we convert to Islam or submit to Islamic rule. If we stop doing things they dislike, where will we draw the line? How far will Sharia advance in the U.S., with Americans afraid to stop its advance for fear of offending Muslims and stirring them up to violence? The Muslim Students Association is already pushing for halal cafeterias, segregated dorms, segregated gym facilities on campus. This is incompatible with American freedom. Where do we draw the line? And when did America decide to surrender in installments? Has America so "fundamentally changed" that we cave to jihadist bullies or threats made Peter Lorre-ish imams with delusions of caliphs on the Hudson?
He said again that if he knew ahead of time the controversy this would create, he wouldn't have made the plans to build the center at the currently planned site. Liar. He loves it. Rauf's contempt for us oozes from his every enlarged pore.
Yeah, who would've thunk it...anger inspired by a mosque, etc., in (what would've been) the shadow of the WTC, had Muslims not, exactly per the directives of the Quran, destroyed the infidel tower on the Hudson.
I'm also worried about the plans by a church in Florida to burn the Quran because I'm pretty sure it will incite violence in the Muslim world -- in a way violence would not be incited in, say, the libertarian world if you burned copies of The Fountainhead.
While I'm all for the freedom to burn books, I'm not at all for book burning. In fact, I think the smart thing to do would be to read the Quran.
Americans are wildly uninformed about what's in it, and about the requirements of Islam (like that the Quran be taken literally and unquestioningly as the word of god). When I hear commentators speaking about Islam and the Ground Zero building on TV, or read people writing about it, it's frequently from the very American view that any belief system is okay. And make no mistake, I am all for the first amendment.
But, as I've blogged recently, there are two Islams. One is a religion, practiced by many perfectly nice people who have no idea what the Quran says. They are the Muslim version of Christmas Christians.The others practice Islam as commanded by the Quran: as totalitarianism masquerading as religion.
I'm an atheist, and I think the evidence-free belief in god is silly, but if you want to believe in god, or in numerology or astrology, well, as long as you don't want to kill me because I don't think the moon in Capricorn has relevance to my Wednesday, well, have at it. That's where my "tolerance" begins and ends.
And again, disagreeing with somebody's belief system isn't bigotry but mere disagreement. Democrats aren't haters because they disagree with Republicans, and people who think Islam, correctly practiced (with women having the rights of pets, and the slaughter of gays for being gays) is barbarism, isn't a hater, but somebody who's informed themselves about Islam.
> I'm pretty sure it will incite violence in the Muslim
> world -- in a way violence would not be incited in,
> say, the libertarian world if you burned copies of
> The Fountainhead.
And if you burned copies of the Bible in coastal Los Angeles, would you fear violence from Baptists? As your blog visitors so often point out, there's plenty of odious stuff in Christianity that all of us have learned to ignore. Most of us don't bother to study the text before disregarding it; why should more be expected of us for Islam?
The authority of Christianity has been diminished here by the larger will of the people as well as by sectarian fragmentation. (Recent events have aided the containment.) This has to happen with Islam as well, otherwise it cannot be tolerated here. Right?
So, like, it's coming. You don't have to affirm allegiance with book burners, or with unintended consequences of recklessness, or with the bitterness of foolish preachers in Florida. Many thoughtful Americans will always be inclined to blasphemy. The infantile, primitive personalities across the globe who are entranced by Islam are gaining access to modern communications— No matter whether their own cultures would have ever had the science and social cohesion to develop those technologies. Got it? They were always going to have their feelings hurt at some point.
No time like the present, don't you think?
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at September 9, 2010 12:08 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2010/09/09/imam_rauf_on_th.html#comment-1752254">comment from Crid [CridComment at gmail]They were always going to have their feelings hurt at some point. No time like the present, don't you think?
Very much with you there.
And people need to understand what Islam's about to understand that it's dangerous to our lives and way of life in ways Judaism and Christianity are not.
Amy Alkon at September 9, 2010 12:14 AM
FINALLY someone is calling that jagoff out on his notably oversized pores!
franko at September 9, 2010 12:14 AM
You don't have to read the whole thing (per Cosh's) comment -- as with a dirty novel read by 12-year-olds, just read "the good parts," all the stuff in Sura 9 about convert or kill the infidel. Hey, wait...that's us!
Amy Alkon at September 9, 2010 12:17 AM
I am certain I am an idiot.
I am not thrilled with the mosque, but I recognize the right to build it, and I do not think that asking the Imam to not build one particular mosque in one particular location is tantamount to stripping away the first amendment.
I also think the jackass who wants to burn this Koran is a total asshole, and that burning the Koran is absolutely the wrong thing to do. But I recognize that he has the right to do so.
I am just surprised I haven't heard anyone on any side mention that if we ask this jackass not to burn the Koran it is tantamount to stripping away the first amendment.
So I am trying to figure out why no one has said this yet, and why my brain is broekn.
anon at September 9, 2010 12:59 AM
> So I am trying to figure out why no one
> has said this yet
It is, I think, because of all a the dorkweeds out there who reflexively, pompously cluck... Like this:
> burning the Koran is absolutely the wrong thing to do.
Why?
I'll tell you why. FEAR.
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at September 9, 2010 1:05 AM
I also love the journey from "it's a gift of peace from the American Muslim Community to America" to "if we don't build it, there may be a huge tide of shit that I won't be able to hold back."
Some gift, eh? And you wonder why so many were hesitant to accept it.
anon at September 9, 2010 1:05 AM
It's not just fear.
I think if Jews saw non Jewish priests burning a Torah there would be see and cry of anti-semitism. And Catholics that saw Rabbies or Imams or Dawkinists burning a King James Bible would see and cry of anti-catholicism.
I think it's reasonable to expect Muslims seeing a priest burning a Koran to see and cry of anti-Islamic bigotry.
Is this priest affiliated with the Vatican? If so, the Vatican should pre-emptive excommunicate him. Not out of fear, but because it really is wrong for a priest to burn another religion's holy book.
It really is reflexively wrong. With an emphasis on reflexively.
anon at September 9, 2010 1:12 AM
Funny how its wrong to burn a few religious books, but noone says shit about the millions of books burned by religions themselves.
Were was this concren when idiots were burning those 'Golden Compass' books just before the movie came out?
lujlp at September 9, 2010 2:59 AM
Not to long ago a guy, I think it was p.z. Meyers, had someone steal a communion wafer from a catholic church with the intentions of defiling it. We didn't riot or burn things. Some people said stupid thing to him but that was as far as it went. This preacher in Florida is a dummy. However I prefer he have the freedom to burn those Quran rather than give up the freedoms I have. I wish he would do something more constructive but he has the right to protest.
There is a direct connection between the p.z. Meyers incident and the Quran burning. We believe as Catholics that the Eucharist is the body of Christ. Muslims believe that god lives in the Quran. The main difference between the 2 is that you have to be rather sneaky to get a consecrated communion wafer. If you want a Quran to destroy you merely have to buy it. I would rather they didn't destroy either but I would rather they had the right to protest than give up the right myself.
I will say this... When the catholic church has been asked to not build a church or monastery in an area they have gone out of their way to change locations. The Muslims should do the same.
Josephinemo6 at September 9, 2010 3:39 AM
Has America so "fundamentally changed" that we cave to jihadist bullies or threats...?
So far, sadly, yes. I see it everywhere, from the Ground Zero brouhaha, to the "Muslim room" at my local fitness center. And when someone pushes back a little by proposing to burn a few Qurans, we're quick to condemn him as intolerant.
How's about a little condemnation toward the religion that is intolerant of all criticism of it? Or are we even capable of that at this point?
cpabroker at September 9, 2010 4:33 AM
And Catholics that saw Rabbies or Imams or Dawkinists burning a King James Bible would see and cry of anti-catholicism.
The King James version? Catholics? seriously? I realize that there isn't a lot of exterior differentiation between The Church of England and Roman Catholics, but it's fairly simple:
King James = 17th century Anglican english translation
Douay–Rheims = 17th century Catholic english translation
Yes, I'm yanking your chain, but smile about it. I think there would be some people protesting against burning any given copy of the bible, but it wouldn't be like the entirety of Catholicism rising up and committing violence in the streets in the name of Jesus, either.
I R A Darth Aggie at September 9, 2010 6:38 AM
The good imam probably knows that muslim on muslim violence has killed many more muslims than infidel on muslim violence over the last 40 years. So I figure, the current events are what he probably expected. Maybe not this much outrage, but I think he definitely wanted to provoke. If he was for "dialog", he could have used his money to rebuild the church destroyed there?
As Gust said at the end in "Charlie Wilson's war": "the crazies are rolling into Kandahar". Now the crazies are...everywhere?
biff at September 9, 2010 6:57 AM
What was missed in the quote posted above was when he called those of us who oppose the "center" radicals. So now 70% of the US population is radical? Great. Next the govt will want to monitor those of us who oppose this thing. Oh wait. Pelosi already had that idea.
I don't burn books or flags, but that is a right we have here in the US and I don't want to see it go away. These people will always hate us for something. If they can silence dissent with just the threat of violence, they have already won.
Sheepmommy at September 9, 2010 7:12 AM
PS
U.S. military says Afghan bibles have been destroyed
http://in.reuters.com/article/idINIndia-39421920090505
How do you think they were "destroyed"? Did Hillary or Barry condemn this?
biff at September 9, 2010 7:37 AM
Acctually Josephinemo6, the college student took the cracker back to his pew to show it to a non catholic guest he had brought to mass and was attacked by someone who was upset that he hadnt swallowed it immediatly. They left the church to avoid further assults.
He recived death threats, threats of violince, and the college put out a memo saying anyone upset with his actions could file a compaint with the colleg.
Meyers jut blogged about it and asked other people to mail him some of the crackers.
FYI catholocism is a flase religion based soley on the dogmas of
1) original sin which Jebus said no longer appllied,
2) the veneration of saints as Jebus said only pray to god,
3) recitation of rote prayers which Jebus said was wrong,
and the there is fact that Jebus said the world was going to end before 130AD
lujlp at September 9, 2010 8:39 AM
I think if Jews saw non Jewish priests burning a Torah there would be see and cry of anti-semitism. And Catholics that saw Rabbies or Imams or Dawkinists burning a King James Bible would see and cry of anti-catholicism.
Sure there would. Catholics or Jews wouldn't go out and murder "the infidel," they'd just go on TV and rail against the burning.
Amy Alkon at September 9, 2010 8:53 AM
> if Jews saw non Jewish priests burning a Torah
> there would be see and cry of anti-semitism.
People aren't worred about "cries" of anti-Muslim sentiment. They're worried about violence.
I think many people, especially youngsters and lefties and the naive, don't know the difference between violent feeling and violence.
They don't want to know, either. They want to keep it simple. They one to have all that stuff kept in a jumble in that one sector of their brains called "ugly stuff". Sorting out all those different things would be a lot trouble: They might get something wrong, which would be humiliating. Others would realize that they don't know what they're talking about.
So it's better to live in a world of infantilized simplicity, where the primitive Muslims aren't asked to do any thinking or feel the normal human pain of adjusting to the lives of others, and everyone just puts up with them.
No.
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at September 9, 2010 10:46 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2010/09/09/imam_rauf_on_th.html#comment-1752389">comment from Crid [CridComment at gmail]I think many people, especially youngsters and lefties and the naive, don't know the difference between violent feeling and violence. They don't want to know, either. They want to keep it simple. They one to have all that stuff kept in a jumble in that one sector of their brains called "ugly stuff".
That's really right on. I find such autopilot thinking in so many -- including paid commentators (not that this is a surprise). But, it's so utterly prevalent, and any sort of going two inches deeper is just not done...by a very wide swath of the population.
Now, if this were about rock and roll or kids wearing baggy pants, whatever. But, there is a serious threat to our civilization, democracy, our way of life, our lives. And people are saying, effectively, "Don't be meanies!" and leaving it at that.
Amy Alkon at September 9, 2010 10:56 AM
Besides, you didn't answer the question: How come "burning the Koran is absolutely the wrong thing to do"?
Is it worse than burning one of those three-inch-thick Windows 95 Network Operations manuals from 15 years ago? Is it worse than burning a stack of yellowed Rex Stout paperback novels from the 1960's? There are people who'd object to that, too.... So whose feelings are you asking me about?
You're asking –on behalf of some very small-minded and naive people– for an exception to be made in the freewheeling patterns of American expression, which may be the greatest source of happiness and progress the world has ever known.
And as much as I admire our brutal expressiveness, I might be tempted to make that exception! But you've offered nothing but a cluck. All were told is that we shouldn't hurt these people's feelings. We're not told that iafter this-or-that many years, the problem will have passed, and we'll be free to live like grown men and women again; nor have you offered any program to gently escort these primitive spirits into modernity.
You're just demanding that we coddle them... And you demand it from behind a telling veil of false humility ("I am certain I am an idiot"), as if the problem were complexity instead of fortitude.
No.
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at September 9, 2010 11:05 AM
Sorry for typos. Head cold.
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at September 9, 2010 11:13 AM
"You're asking –on behalf of some very small-minded and naive people– for an exception to be made in the freewheeling patterns of American expression, which may be the greatest source of happiness and progress the world has ever known."
Agreed.
Also, you are free to show up wearing speedo on your uncle's funeral. It is totally legal guaranteed by the first amendment. But you will not be doing this as this will be considered "rude".
Yes, the pastor has a right to burn the Koran but it does not mean he should. And "I see rude people"/pastor to a billion Muslim.
Chang at September 9, 2010 2:36 PM
Tough. That amounts to yielding to the heckler’s veto.
I’m not for book burning either, but this is Richard Dawkins’ moment: He should organize a burning of all the pestilential religious books: the Bible, Torah, Quran, Book of Mormon, et al.
Then, at the moment of tossing a match on the heap say: “Never mind. What’s the point of wasting a match on utter nonsense?”
No one would object if a pallet load of Mein Kampf was put to the torch. Given the contents of the Quran, why all the indignation?
It is amazing how scattering various iterations of “on account of [fill this space with whichever god-word fits] says so” give a bye to the morally repellant, no matter how many hecatombs have been caused along the way.
Which is due to the widespread American belief that all religions are more or less like Christianity. What they don’t know is that contemporary Christianity is an anodyne simulacrum of the real thing that no Christian of a hundred years ago would be able to distinguish from atheism with hymns.
Time for everyone to read Sam Harris’s “The End of Faith”. We should use C17s to carpet bomb Islamia with it.
—
“Irony” is an easy concept to misuse. But I think calling intolerant those who resist a glaring installation of a totem to a pervasively intolerant ideology properly qualifies as ironic.
Hey Skipper at September 9, 2010 2:47 PM
> Yes, the pastor has a right to burn the Koran but
> it does not mean he should.
For shit's sake... WHY NOT?
Buncha fucking clucking hens.
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at September 9, 2010 3:10 PM
"For shit's sake... WHY NOT?"
When MacArthur announced that he will not be trying Emperor Hirohito as a war criminal, there was a reporter back in the room who said "For shit's sake... WHY NOT?"
MacArthur calmly explained that we are trying to make a peace with the radical militant Japanese soldiers and hanging the God like Emperor is not the way to go about it.
Was really MacArthur afraid of Kamikazes? I think not. But I think he thought that it is very "rude" to hang the Emperor, who Japanese consider to be God no matter how much you think it is primitive. And he was right about that. The Japanese ceased to become our enemy after that.
Burning the Koran will give just one more reason for these losers to wrap themselves with home made bombs.
Chang at September 9, 2010 4:47 PM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2010/09/09/imam_rauf_on_th.html#comment-1752514">comment from Hey SkipperTime for everyone to read Sam Harris’s “The End of Faith”. We should use C17s to carpet bomb Islamia with it.
Perhaps bomb them with MP3 players and books on tape, since a reported 80 percent of the Muslim world is illiterate.
Amy Alkon at September 9, 2010 4:48 PM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2010/09/09/imam_rauf_on_th.html#comment-1752521">comment from ChangBurning the Koran will give just one more reason for these losers to wrap themselves with home made bombs.
That's the real issue people should be talking about.
Amy Alkon at September 9, 2010 5:10 PM
Anyone still reading? Good. This story is fading, as the burning has been called off. But let's give it a good sendoff.
Young Chang's approach to this matter is ubiquitous. We hear it from the right and the left.
Everyone seems to want to use this as an issue for social posturing... To say 'Oh, it's so rude to burn the Koran! I, personally, would never do anything so gauche and déclassé... Obviously, this preacher is just an uncouth hillbilly.'
I think that's not the way to go. He's in America; he can say whatever he wants about whoever he wants. People who use this story to pretend to be elegant and snooty are missin and opportunity to be courageous and thoughtful.
And as I was typing this up, Youngster Chang comes through again:
> Burning the Koran will give just one more reason
> for these losers to wrap themselves with home
> made bombs.
I am not going to go through my life, or compose my culture, so as to minimize friction with fuckheads. If there's a fight to be had, Bring It. Now.
I'm nonetheless gratified to learn that you weren't really trying to come off as a prissy, doily-draped, pinky-extended Victorian cotillion attendee, one offended by the coarse rural accent of the footman in the foyer.
We'll have to take some comfort in your frank acknowledgment that this was never about anything more than fear. For you.
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at September 9, 2010 5:14 PM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2010/09/09/imam_rauf_on_th.html#comment-1752539">comment from Crid [CridComment at gmail]I am not going to go through my life, or compose my culture, so as to minimize friction with fuckheads. If there's a fight to be had, Bring It.
Agree. Cannot let violent primitives dictate how we utilize American freedoms.
Amy Alkon at September 9, 2010 5:52 PM
"We'll have to take some comfort in your frank acknowledgment that this was never about anything more than fear. For you."
Absolutely not.
The fear and violence has been the norm for these two different cultures/religions for more than two thousand years.
What I am saying is "no mas". If you are going to tell me that the future and present is more of the same from the past two thousand years, I want none of it.
We can change this, so we can learn to coexist. And we can start now. "No time like the present, don't you think?"
Chang at September 9, 2010 5:53 PM
let me paraphrase Bull Halsey "Someone asked me if I thought there was such a thing as a good muslim, and I replied, ya, one that has been dead for six months. I intend to make every muslim a good muslim"
ron at September 9, 2010 5:58 PM
> What I am saying is "no mas".
As a youth, you perhaps don't recognize the most famous use of that phrase in American culture: It was not a moment of high honor, but of naked, abysmal surrender.
> If you are going to tell me that the future and
> present is more of the same from the past two
> thousand years, I want none of it.
You're not being asked what you want.
> We can change this, so we can learn to coexist.
> And we can start now.
Absolutely, buttercup! We'll coexist this way: We will speak, feel, and behave however we see fit with respect to the religious beliefs of others... And should they respond with violence, we'll shut 'em down.
And we'll do it like that until the sun goes dark and cold.
And that's it! There's nothing to negotiate. My love of American expression trumps anyone's need for reverence.
Are you a citizen of the United States of America, Young Chang?
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at September 9, 2010 6:10 PM
"Are you a citizen of the United States of America, Young Chang?"
Yes. And when I saw the Golden Gate, an octopus came out of my ear. What the hell did you do to become an American?
Our founding fathers gave two EQUAL senate votes to Massachusetts and New York States no matter how you think that is primitive thinking. This is why you don't find any suicide bombing schools in Harvard.
Give your enemy a fair deal. They will cease to become your enemy. Did you not learn anything from World War II experience? Burning a Koran is not going to be considered a fair deal to anyone, who believe in civilization.
Chang at September 9, 2010 6:32 PM
> And when I saw the Golden Gate, an octopus
> came out of my ear.
Perhaps that's high sarcasm in whatever culture you arrived from. But here, it's merely inane. Is there a point you were trying to make?
What does the allotment of senate seats have to do with this? Why is the word "EQUAL" capitalized? What would it have to do with "suicide bombing schools", and what would it have to do with Harvard?
My enemy gets the best possible deal: He can pursue his religion as he sees fit, until he demands that I observe his protocols. Thereafter, his world turns to shit. This isn't a problem for Baptists, why should it be a problem for Islam?
> Did you not learn anything from World War II
> experience?
I learned that enemies must often be violently and reflexively opposed, often at tremendous cost.
> Burning a Koran is not going to be considered
> a fair deal to anyone, who believe in civilization.
It's perfectly fair... Couldn't be fairer. If you don't want to burn the Koran, then don't. For my own part, I think each page of that volume is a hindrance to civilization and human progress; the fewer such pages, the better.
Whatever culture you regard as your source seems to have fixed your soul in a posture of submission. You might never be happy here.
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at September 9, 2010 6:56 PM
"Perhaps that's high sarcasm in whatever culture you arrived from. But here, it's merely inane. Is there a point you were trying to make?"
Yes. I swam across the Pacific to get to the paradise. That is why an octopus came out of my ear. While you merely hit the DNA lottery jack pot, I did something to become a citizen of the U.S.A. I am trying to make a point that I chose this country to be my home because of the ideas what She stood for. And burning Koran was not one of them.
"What does the allotment of senate seats have to do with this? Why is the word "EQUAL" capitalized? What would it have to do with "suicide bombing schools", and what would it have to do with Harvard?"
O.K. Your head cold is getting worse. Read it again when you feel better.
"Whatever culture you regard as your source seems to have fixed your soul in a posture of submission. You might never be happy here."
Oh, boy, here goes again. I have a Bible in my right hand and Colt 45 in my left hand. And I will dictate what is right or wrong. You are still living in the early 20th century. The rest of us moved on with Obama Christ. 'You might never be happy here." Have you considered a country like Saudi Arabia to be your home? I don't think the submission is one of their cultural element. You guys have a lot to share and talk about the civilization.
Chang at September 9, 2010 7:25 PM
> you merely hit the DNA lottery jack pot
The magnificence of this nation is not a lucky break; America thrives because her values are so superior to those of other places.
> I did something to become a citizen of the U.S.A
But you came here with your folks, right?
> I chose this country to be my home because
> of the ideas what She stood for.
Apparently not; You cower when challenged.
> I don't think the submission is one of their
> cultural element
No?
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at September 9, 2010 7:54 PM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2010/09/09/imam_rauf_on_th.html#comment-1752632">comment from ChangI am trying to make a point that I chose this country to be my home because of the ideas what She stood for. And burning Koran was not one of them.
It sure as hell is. As is burning the flag and wearing a "fuck the draft" jacket (Cohen v. California, 1971). To maintain free speech, we need to use it. People expressing outrageous ideas help maintain the ability for others to express them.
I may not agree with your speech, but I sure defend your right to speak freely, providing you don't call for the death of others (or forced conversion) or other violence.
This society is one where you can burn a Quran or I SEE RUDE PEOPLE or copy of Atlas Shrugged or The Bible or the collected editions of Popular Mechanics, and I fucking love that.
To not burn a Quran out of fear of Muslim violence, this is precisely what the Israelis don't do, and it's capitulate to terrorists.
Amy Alkon at September 9, 2010 10:32 PM
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