Oooh! Ooh! You know what that patient needs?!? A government-funded, expensive and ineffective program on smoking cessation! Like that Blackberries-for-quitters program in DC, that gave people trying to quit Blackberries using tax dollars so they could use cessation-support forums!

God, why do I not work for the federal government?

My sister used to do that. She wouldn't ask for money, she'd ask for things like diapers, baby formula, etc. Then my parents and other people would inadvertently fuel her drug problem, since it freed up her disposable income for thing she should have bought first from her pay check.

I wonder what she spends per month on cigs and beer, and if it would cover the cost of health insurance.

Well, at least she's paying taxes on the smokes and brew.

For the children.

One of our ex-salesman has had three babies delivered on the county dime and all three are now on assistance, a leg broken while skiing repaired at county expense, and regularly takes from the local food pantry. They also just had three vacations this year, including Disneyworld, and a $250.00 spa makeover day for the wife's birthday. I wonder if he wonders why we're not really friends any more.

This letter is so on the money. It's about taking personal reponsibility. Take care of yourself, get insurance when young (instead of more clothes and a hot car), take a little responsibility. It's sad, I see it in my students all the time now...nothing is their fault...they're all really "A" students and if they fail a test or assignment, it must be someone else's fault. It couldn't be because they failed to put the effort in.

/sarcasm

Your racist opposition to just, fair, and decent actions by this president is saddening.

I call propaganda.

The example used obviously happens quite often and while that is terrible it doesn't always paint the picture of all who are uninsured. Not every person who does not have private health insurance is selfish or trying to milk a system. I had insurance through my parents which continued while I was in college. I then started working and had insurance through my job. When I married, my insurance was with my husband who was a cop and I had no reason to believe that I wouldn't be covered for the rest of my life. Of course, after my divorce ten years later, he no longer covered me. I was able to get insurance then through my job but left due to an injury. Cobra was very expensive and I was diagnosed with a very rare arthritic condition. Eventually as a single mother I was unable to afford the Cobra payments. I had a choice, Cobra or food on the table for my kids. I do not have medicaid and I have not ever been on any form of public assistance. I've had to pay out of pocket for doctor's visits and have often gone to sliding scale clinics when symptoms were unmanageable. I now have what is considered a pre-existing condition and the cost of private health insurance is not in my reach unless my Lotto numbers ever hit. I'm sure I'll hear that I was irresponsible in never planning on being divorced or paying for insurance early on, but I always had it and found myself without it in my late 30's. I'm sorry but I think its criminal what those people do who scam Medicaid, but I think its also criminal how expensive it is to get private insurance. I don't know the answer though.

Smokers pay as much as six (and that may be higher now with increases recently enacted) times their average healthcare-differential cost in tobacco taxes.

Perhaps smokers should be considered to have already paid?

As silly as this sounds, it's a relatively logical consequence of the ... narrative used to justify the taxes in the first place... don't tax you, don't tax me, tax that fellow behind the tree....

I heard someone sum up the problem the other day quite well:

We were raised with an emphasis on our RESPONSIBILITIES. You're responsible for studying hard, working hard and saving to take care of yourself.

The generation after us was raised with an emphasis on ENTITLEMENTS. You are entitled to food, housing, medical care, a rewarding career, etc. The world owes it all to you.

This hypothesis -- responsibilities vs. entitlements -- seems to explain and predict about 95% of the data, including this delightful woman with the ring-tones and the Medicare.

She is not entitled to my paycheck.

Oh! I see Lawyer Tom's friend already made the same point. Well, me too. Amen.

Please grant me the serenity not to kill someone before personal responsibility comes back into fashion.

I suspect I be dead before then.

Lawyer Tom:

So lets assume that there was a transition from responsibility mentality to an entitlement mentality.

How would that work? Responsibility was not presented to me as a duty, but in my enlightened self-interest.

A couple of ideas:

1) As the economy becomes more efficient and productive, what people must do for themselves drops off - it's harder to drop out of school and become, say a union machinist.

2) What differentiates one person from another in competitive markets becomes increasing not about measurable things, but about Robin Hansonian "social signaling" things.

If either or both of these hold, then yeah, people have no real connection with what keeps them alive. How can we *not* expect a decrease in personal responsibility? After all, the "ability to respond" has been attenuated...

So are we prepared to give up material comfort for an increase in personal responsibility? That experiment may be running as we speak, so answer carefully.... :)

Come visit the OB floor in the hospital where I'm doing clinicals this semester. The free diapers and formula while on the floor are one thing. The expectation that they continue after discharge are another. Then there's the further expectation that they get the formula that has a gold label because that implies that it's more expensive (it's not, we have 20 different kinds of formula color coded for different dietary needs, not dollar value). Oh, and the expectation of a free brand new infant carrier car seat. Yes, the hospital has those, for families that "qualify", because we can't release a baby to go home without an approved care seat. We do have teaching before discharge about a variety of topics. Contraception is one of them, typically met with a "Why?" from the patient. Irony, huh?

I've decided OB is soooooo not for me.

Sigh. So wrong. There's more than enough money in any insurance company's profits to pay for covering all the horrible loopholes. There's no reason why the premiums should have to go up for people earning less than 1/4 million a year. Oh, wait, I see the frustration now: one more year between new cars.

If your patients want free food for their infants, maybe you should shoo them away from the free formula. Then they could walk away with free milk for the next couple years.

Handing out free formula in the hospital to people who can't afford formula really isn't doing them a favor.

On another note, if the family doesn't even have a car, do they still need a car seat if they're going to walk?

We give them enough free formula to cover them for as long as it takes to get to the health department to establish and procure their ongoing supply. Seriously. They get their benefits applications while they're still in the hospital.

As to the free car seat, no one is made to leave the hospital on foot. If they don't have a car, then they get a free voucher for a taxi, so they still need the car seat. Maddening, isn't it?

And people wonder why hospitals are closing their doors in urban areas.

Why were these women not encouraged to breastfeed? I mean, I know some women are physically unable to produce enough milk. But other times, just some instruction in breastfeeding can solve all kinds of problems. My L&D hospital had several lactation consultants on staff, which I think is a great way to ensure free food for an infant with minimal state subsidies.

Ah yes. Another episode in the ongoing drama "How People of Color Are Ruining Our Country". Yes, I picked up on the subtle clues - the gold tooth (you're actually right, no one should be allowed to have gold while a single child goes hungry, but I suspect that wasn't your point), the tattoos (only white trash need apply), the tennis shoes (I guess doc knows his/her tennis shoes and doesn't like the wrong people wearing them), a "new" cell phone (maybe she just takes good care of it), the R&B ringtone (mine's R.E.M., and it was free, but let's assume the object of our white resentment bought hers with food stamps, because actual facts might ruin the fun).

And cigs and beer, oh my! (If I were poor, I'd have my cigs and beer, too, to keep from blowing my brains out. Oh, that's right. Poor people aren't supposed to enjoy anything. Thank god the rest of us never do anything that negatively impacts our health.)

And kudos to bloglady who is so good with her insurance premiums (love those holier than thou white people!).

Get this, folks. Maybe the object of our white resentment really can't afford healthcare! The great state of Mississippi isn't known for generosity towards its poorer citizens, so if they gave her Medicaid I say she deserves it.

Oh, and it's not that YOU should pay for HER healthcare. It's that WE should all have access to healthcare, including people who could take better care of themselves. You know who you are.

Now please get over yourselves and learn what it means to be poor. (Oh no! Facts again!) You wouldn't exchange places with her for anything.

And for the literally holier than thou, have you heard the one about "the least of my brethren"?

Sounds like worst case scenerio
Not everyone who doesn't have health care is like that.

No, John.. poor people aren't supposed to be blowing their money on beer and cigarettes. Those two items are a contributing factor to perpetual poverty. Idiots and selfish people put personal enjoyment over their obligations as citizens to take care of themselves and their children. They deserve nothing but scorn.

Um....John Burns? I HAVE been poor. Ramen noodles twice a day, collecting cans for the Michigan ten cent refund, wearing two-sizes too-small rotting shoes on my feet kind of poor. No cigarettes. No beer. No cell phone (well, they weren't around then, but it sure as hell wouldn't have been part of the equation) Guess what it got me?

MOTIVATED.

And health care is not a right. It's a privilege, you Kool-Aid spewing tightass. If you want free health care, find a doctor who cares to donate his time at the free clinic or has been sentenced by a judge to perform community service. Just remember, you get what you pay for.

I'm the stupid one who spent money on the latest computers and software because it was my "business" as a computer consultant. Fast forward to age 59 after 10 years of disability. I'm on Medicare and am deeply, deeply ashamed. I didn't do drugs or gamble. I just couldn't control my money. Now I pay the price with marginal health and a family so tired of me I'm living in the garage.
I'm middle class with two degrees but suffer enough to open a vein soon.
Please note that there are people who live off of the welfare of others with great regret.
(BTW: When I worked as a social worker in the late 70s, very few of my clients wanted to accept my help. I had to convince them that a little help would get them back to self-sufficiency soon.)

"Oh, and it's not that YOU should pay for HER healthcare. It's that WE should all have access to healthcare, including people who could take better care of themselves. You know who you are."

So who, then, do you think WILL pay for it? The government? Sorry, the government never has had and never will have any money, you oaf. It's all OUR money. SO yes, We are paying for HER healthcare. Period. Everyone DOES have access to healthcare. No hospital is going to bar you from walking in the door. But yes, oddly enough, they ARE going to expect to be paid for the services they render. Just like McDonalds does.

I lived in east austin until last May. These people buy expensive cars ($50k pick-up, on exorbitant interest from a "crappy-credit" place) They "rent to own" 50 inch tv's. Yes, they pay hundreds for shoes. And cell phones. And purses. They live with their baby-daddy, but claim they don't know who the father is, to get more welfare. And generally work for cash, IF they work at all. So no, I am NOT going to pay for their healthcare. They should damn well have to pay for mine, due to the level of stress they cause me by being so fucking idiotic and irresponsible.

If I were poor, I'd have my cigs and beer, too, to keep from blowing my brains out. Oh, that's right. Poor people aren't supposed to enjoy anything.

I'm not poor, but I am struggling. I haven't bought clothes for two years. I've cut back in almost every area of my life. Today, I went to Costco to get a few things, and Gregg came with, and he said, "I thought you don't like Romaine," when I put a big package of five heads of it in my cart. I don't. Eating Romaine an austerity measure. It's the cheapest lettuce Costco has. I eat that lettuce a good deal and eat a big clump of sauteed Italian parsley every morning (about $1 per big non-organic bunch at the supermarket) so I'm eating good veggie vitamins. I'm working very hard on a book proposal, and hoping my fortunes will change soon, but things are tough in the newspaper business -- like they are in a lot of businesses of late.

Regarding the notion of going without, regular commenters here have read before, when I was struggling in New York, I slept on a door on two milk crates because I couldn't afford even a futon, but I always paid my health insurance. If I didn't, and something happened to me, my parents would have to either mortgage their house (not fair to them) or leave me to the public to pay for (not fair to them).

Oh, and in those days, I was famous for my way of dealing with dinner invitations (to restaurants). I'd say I couldn't come for dinner but I could come for dessert. I'd show up after the meal, drink a glass of tap water, and leave a dollar. Humiliating, kept me home a lot of the time (which is how I ended up meeting Marlon Brando in an AOL chat room), but I paid my health insurance and my rent every month, and in full and on time, and never expected it to be any other way.

also important to note that when you see a woman who is dressed rather nicely with her nails and hair done if she is on medicare or some other form of assistance,she probably isn't making herself look nice out of vanity. It could be that she has to look nice in order to get clients (johns) so that she might put food in her mouth and a roof over her head. John Burns has a point about the implied race of this woman, which I find more insulting than just coming out and saying it. This whole thing just stinks of propaganda, like the fictitious reagan era welfare queen. Gawd, how stupid are people to just jump on this govt manufactured bandwagon?

John, that race card doesn't work anymore. We can spot it coming from a mile away. Nobody in this thread mentioned race until you brought it up.

Now please get over yourselves ... - John Burns

Maybe you ought to take some of your own advice.

Her race is entirely unimportant! We're paying for her health care so she can put her money toward extravagances.

And P.S. For those of you still living in the 90s, there are classy idiots of all colors with gold choppers:

http://articles.sfgate.com/2005-05-01/bay-area/17372452_1_gold-teeth-teenage-girls-grills

It could be that she has to look nice in order to get clients (johns) so that she might put food in her mouth and a roof over her head.

Oh, please. I do television appearances for my work, and I get my hair cut at Fantastic Sam's ($17 because I'm frugal so I ask them not to shampoo it or blow it dry so I can save a few bucks!).

P.S. I might be frugal but I tip well.

Oh, and it's not that YOU should pay for HER healthcare. It's that WE should all have access to healthcare, including people who could take better care of themselves. You know who you are.

Yeah, yeah, I know, I'm fat. (Not obese, I don't think, but definitely showing some belly, which I'm trying to jettison.) Nevertheless, I'd rather pay my own way, should my company lose its healthcare policy, rather than living off of other people's tax money.

I was poor at one point. Took unemployment with great reluctance. That turned out to be a morally bad move. I let them know about my new part-time employer (beer and wine store), and they turned around and threatened the business with a fine, unless they divulged info about me or confirmed the info that I gave the state of Maryland. NEVER AGAIN, if I can help it!

twilight bling

http://www.hiphopbling.com/gotogrco2.html?gclid=CJqvhvGilaQCFR9Pgwodg2zyIQ

for all the welfare queens who are also twi-heads.

I prefer the old school anne rice vampires myself.

Breastfeeding is what I was hinting (badly) at, Melissa G!

Sounds like the hospitals are giving out free formula, and getting mothers hooked on an expensive, luxury item that they can't afford. It's rather awful, actually.

Are gold teeth much more expensive than other type of false teeth? Honestly, if she genuinely needed a replacement tooth, because of a dental emergency, that seems like a fair thing for medicaid to cover. But not if it is much pricier than a porcelain tooth. I have no idea. Do any of you?

On Gawd, kids.

I grew up in Mississippi. BTW, the paper is the Clarion-Ledger, published in Jackson, the state capital and it's a Letter to the Editor.

Which means you should take it with a large grain of salt. Mississippi is the poorest state in the nation (and will always be because the people who do have money there like it that way). There are still a lot of white people for whom daily multitasking consists of whatever they're supposed to be doing while continuously looking for reasons to justify their ossified racism and classism. This letter, or some variation of it, has been written millions of times since the Sixties. Always about some low-class person trying to gorge themselves at the oh-so-generous public trough. Mississippi has the stingiest public assistance and unemployment benefits any state in the nation. It does lead the nation in adult illiteracy, however! Which may explain how the lady in question has such screwy priorities.

Of course, it always eludes the author of these "Personal Responsibility" letters that for every dollar Mississippi sends to evil Washington, it gets $2.02 back courtesy of the Socialist states like CA, NJ, NY, etc. Perhaps it's time we gave states like Mississippi, where the Personal Responsibility Ethic is so very important, the opportunity to actually live their beliefs.

Or, we could just have single-payer healthcare, which is what most Americans want, and is what the rest of the Developed World has, and eliminate this issue altogether as the lady in question would have already paid her Medical Insurance premium each year on April 15 (assuming she files.)

Love the way this thread has become a pissing contest of people bragging about how poor they are/were.

Hope they'll forgive me if my response isn't, "Wow! You are/were poor? Your opinion must count more than everyone else's, and you must be morally superior and more real and authentic!" but rather, "Wow, that sucks, sorry to hear that."

I have no idea. Do any of you?

When I chipped a tooth about five years ago, there certainly was. Like a less than $1000 compared to several thousand. Luckily, my dentist was able to just fix it with a lot of filling.

I was just googling and it now appears to be similar in price. So not sure. maybe it was my insurance (wouldn't cover the gold maybe?).

NicoleK- It's called having perspective, and that we've already walked in those shoes. You don't realize how you're being just as sanctimonious and morally superior?

So, Nicole, what you're saying is that when we're discussing poverty framed in "personal responsibility" that having no personal experience with poverty is no more relevant than never wanting for anything. In that case let's discuss what it's like to have a penis. You go first.

"This whole thing just stinks of propaganda, like the fictitious reagan era welfare queen. Gawd, how stupid are people to just jump on this govt manufactured bandwagon?"

gspotted shows her idiocy again. Black people (not that I assume she had to be black by the mention of gold teeth or hip-hop, why are YOU making assumptions about her race?) are about 35% of the welfare rolls, and about 10% of the population as a whole.

"Or, we could just have single-payer healthcare, which is what most Americans want, "

Except that the vast majority of Americans, to the tune of 85%, do NOT want healthcare messed with at all. So, go spout your stupidity elsewhere.

Did Gspotted seriously just put it out there that women on Medicare (which is for seniors; I think and hope she meant Medicaid, which is for the indigent) have to look nice so that they can prostitute themselves for food and rent? Really? Because food stamps, WIC and rental assistance/section 8 don't often go along with Medicaid? Because it's a-ok that under that theory, women on Medicaid are making goodness-knows-how-much, tax-free and unclaimed? Riiiigggghhht.

Also, it's weird that a non-disabled, not pregnant adult is on Medicaid at all, whether she has gold teeth and a cell phone or not. In Texas, adults who aren't disabled or pregnant can't get Medicaid coverage on themselves; they can get Medicaid and CHIP for their kids, but the adults don't get anything. I rather like that system, it shows what all public assistance programs should be, a way of seeing that children aren't seriously deprived/neglected for their parents' irresponsible choices.

As far as this particular woman...I'm willing to give her some leeway. Anyone with kids needs a phone of some kind, and a cell phone that goes with you everywhere is better than a landline. That way your kids' school/daycare/other parent can reach you in case of an emergency if you're out looking for a job (ideally) or shopping or whatever. It shouldn't be a blackberry curve, of course, but it irks me a little to hear all the surprise at a poor person with a cell phone when a cell phone is better and just about as a cheap as a land-line phone.

If in fact, the woman does have Medicaid because of pregnancy, then, well, she could very well have had everything---gold tooth, tattoos, top-of-the-line phone and shoes---before she got pregnant unexpectedly. Yes, yes, birth control...but it's not 100%, condoms break, people are fallible creatures who forget pills or don't ask if antibiotics interfere with b/c when they should...I have twins for that last reason. She could've even had some sort of insurance, which didn't cover pregnancy, prior to getting Medicaid.

I'm sure all of the above doesn't make it much easier to swallow for the doctor, but, well, it's something to think about.

Okay. Here's what happens when you have a single payer health care system and generous welfare benefits too! And, oh happy day... these people are white. So now that the race care is gone, what's left in your arsenal?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1313410/Now-babies-women-Britains-feckless-father--cost-taxpayer-1-5m-time-theyve-grown-up.html

Nothing is going to change on the personal responsibility front until people's attitudes change. I think the Tea Party is a reasonable proxy for what the taxpayers are thinking. Change is coming. I will not see my family deprived for someone who does nothing for himself. There is a staggering and unsustainable difference between the number of people who cannot provide for themselves and those who will not provide for themselves.

We already pay for this healthcare - through taxes, $2 aspirin tablets (have you looked at a hospital bill?) and our health insurance premiums. Like everything else that cannot continue, this won't either. We are out of other people's money.

Politics is going to meet reality. Reality will win.

Sorry! Should read "race card".

Sorry, it just seems to happen a lot on the internet when discussing ANY socio-economic issue. Whether the issue is rich people or poor people, people come out in droves and talk about how being poor makes them more "real". I will admit I may be projecting due to other internet situations.

It's true that you don't have to spend a lot of money to look good. Although, my understanding is that black women tend towards having to spend more money on hair than white ones in order to achieve a "professional" look. Apparently, according to NPR last year, the more natural, cheaper looks are considered radical political statements. Black women apparently have lots of pressure to get their hair straightened, which is pricey, and an expense that occurs frequently. I dunno, tho, maybe they can do it at home cheaper.

But we are talking about gold teeth, not hair relaxers.

Of course, given that she's already ON Medicaid, taxpayers paying for her care has nothing to do with Obama or with the healthcare reform bill...

"I think the Tea Party is a reasonable proxy for what the taxpayers are thinking."

Unfortunately, you're correct. Which means that taxpayers are thinking - like we always do - "let's cut all of the government programs that don't personally benefit me." I'd love to see a Tea Partier actually acknowledge that Social Security and Medicare are going to be insolvent in a few years, and that those massive entitlements need to be on the chopping block in any serious policy discussion.

PLenty of tea partiers want to do away with SS and medicare completely. But nice try, CB.

No need for sniping, I wasn't "trying" to do anything except point out one of the major reasons why the Tea Party isn't a viable third party alternative for anyone who actually cares about limited government. As someone who actually does care very much about limited government, I'd like nothing more than an awesome third party willing to put that into practice. Unfortunately, the evidence suggests that this is not the Tea Party.

But I'm very interested to hear that the Tea Party might actually have a coherent position on the subject of entitlements! I've looked for Tea Party candidates or leaders who have advocated cutting or eliminating Social Security and Medicare, but I seem to be coming up short. Perhaps you would be so good as to direct me to the Tea Party leaders and/or thinkers who espouse a consistent and intellectually honest approach to fixing our entitlement system?

It could be that she has to look nice in order to get clients (johns) so that she might put food in her mouth and a roof over her head.

This is one reason why I think prostitution should be legalized for single people. (It should be illegal for married people, due to the whole adultery issue.)

Sure, the average woman doesn't aspire to sell her body, but it can work in a pinch, as long as there are regulations to prevent the spread of STDs and sex trafficking.

@NicoleK: I wasn't talking about my being poor to brag about it or prove myself morally superior. I merely did it to point out the double-edged sword of unemployment: you get benefits, but they harass your employers.

@mpetrie, of course prostitution should be legal (and is in some places) but that really has not a whit to do with why someone receiving assistance looks nice. Most women on assistance do work---waitresses, cashiers, receptionists and other low-wage earners routinely get assistance if they are single with kids---so they have to look nice to some degree. Looking "nice" for a job often requires black women to get rather expensive hair treatments and that's unfortunate...but that's not on the table here. Having a gold tooth and tattoos isn't about looking nice for any profession, even the oldest one. The doctor didn't mention the woman's hair, or nails, so he's spot on about the beer and cigarettes, but everything else *might* have a reasonable explanation...but prostitution wouldn't be it.

Really, that comment about people on assistance needing to prostitute themselves was about the most asinine comment I've seen about "welfare queens". How ridiculous could it possibly be to on the on hand, defend aid recipients from the stereotype that they hide money (by living with baby-daddy but claiming not to know where the kids' father is, working for cash, etc) and spending on extravagances, and on the other try to explain extravagances away....because they need to spend those extravagances to earn more unclaimed money!

And honestly, that manages to insult people receiving assistance more than this letter from the doctor. The doctor's saying, essentially, "I'm tired of paying for the medical care of leeches", while Gspotted is saying essentially "But, if they look leeches, they might also be whores!"

Also, why make it illegal for married people? Adultery isn't illegal when it's free, so why would it be when it's paid for?

"Are gold teeth much more expensive than other type of false teeth? "

Four or five years ago, the answer might have been no. But have you seen the price of gold lately?

"Yes, I picked up on the subtle clues - the gold tooth (you're actually right, no one should be allowed to have gold while a single child goes hungry, but I suspect that wasn't your point), the tattoos (only white trash need apply), the tennis shoes (I guess doc knows his/her tennis shoes and doesn't like the wrong people wearing them), a "new" cell phone"

Not racial cues, but clues that this woman just might, might , might be milking the system.....how much does a gold tooth cost? Tattoos don't come cheap either. I'm sure you know that some tennis shoes are hundreds of dollars.None of these things can be bought with food stamps.

Interesting of YOU to assume it's racial. Says much more about you than about anything or anyone else...

Why do black women "have" to get their hair straightened? I'm confused.

I'm white and have naturally curly hair and leave it curly. What's wrong with curly hair?

Kiss your children with that mouth momofour? I'm curious as to where you get your figure that "85 percent" of Americsns are against single-payer. Every poll I've seen shows a majority of American taxpayers and physicians in favor. And like it or not, SS and Medicare ain't going anywhere - they're far too popular. But, if you feel soiled by the prospect of accessing those group benefits, I'll be happy to use 'em for you. Now, go rinse that sour mouth out with some sulfuric acid and come back when you're ready to continue not making sense in a more collegial fashion.

I don't know Kris, it seems stupid to me, but apparently when black women show up at work with natural hair they are often told by bosses that their appearance isn't professional enough. For some reason last spring this was being discussed in various media outlets.

Which is awful, because here you have a group of people that as a -group- (not very individual of course) are economically disadvantaged, and in order to get them to advance jobwise they have to do expensive stuff.

Personally, I like curly hair, as my 2 disasterous attempts at perms proved... but sadly, I was not meant to have it.

But all this is off-topic.

I've got a tooth I want to get capped, but I want to get it capped with something the same color as my other teeth. I don't want to call attention to the fact that I had a tooth problem! (Besides posting it on the net to strangers that is).

Fuck you mcQ. How's that for language?

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/current_events/healthcare/august_2009/32_favor_single_payer_health_care_57_oppose

For starters. When you get your "facts" from dailykos, they tend to be skewed.

"Every poll I've seen shows a majority of American taxpayers and physicians in favor."

I ask, whose poll? (oops, Momof4 beat me to it)

Lies, damn lies, and statistics. Why have we seen so many polls pimping Obamacare? Because nobody who actually possesses the money needed to fund it wants to cough up their already dwindling wages to do so. The pimps seem to think they can get us to follow their imaginary pollsters like lemmings and obediently fall in line.

Baahhh. Talk about sheeple.

"Fuck you mcQ. How's that for language?" momof4

I'd expect nothing less. And yeah, I could use this space to read you to filth, but why waste your time with facts?

As far as whose polls go, Juliana, there's NY Times/CBS poll, a Kaiser Family Foundation poll and I could go on, but I'm sure there'd be something wrong with all of them.

But let's clear something up; I've never mentioned Obamacare. If you recall, Barry took single-payer off the table before the public debate even started. (Must have been something he and Rahm agreed to in all those secret meetings with Insurance Industry lobbyists - from which pro-single payer citizens and providers were excluded - before the whole thing went to Congress).

I think Obamacare is nothing but a big, fat giveaway to an industry that is already enormously profitable. It makes me sick because the health insurance industry has been granted an even more extensive monopoly with minimal regulation and oversight, and the citizens are going to get screwed even worse than they already are. It makes me furious with Democrats, Republicans and the White House.

What I want to see is Medicare made available to everyone - that's what "single payer" health insurance is. If you want quicker non-emergency access, you can do what they do in the U.K. for example and buy private insurance above and beyond your basic National Health coverage.

I have had health insurance my entire life, first through employers and then as a freelancer. When I went independent, I got health insurance through a professional organization. I have a chronic health condition so there's no wiggle room on whether to have insurance or not. The organization cycled through several insurers; at one point, the only policy they were able to offer turned out to be a complete scam for which the principals are now behind bars. I had to get help to pay for my medications for a few months until I found another professional organization, which tapped into the state buying pool. (I could never get insurance on my own because of my pre-existing condition).

I always got the "Cadillac" plan, as our president calls it, with no lifetime maximum payout. Turned out to be a good thing, since I needed extensive chemo at one point; one month into treatment Blue Shield cancelled my policy - nice, huh? I was able to switch to another company, and dip into some savings at the time to cover treatment while I waited for my new coverage to kick in. During that period, I was able to work some and drew on my savings for other expenses. (In retrospect, that was a foolish decision: I should have filed for disability and held onto my savings.)

When I turned 45, the premiums went up to $750 a month, plus co-pays for everything, etc. That's a lot of money. I switched to Kaiser and I've been very, very happy with them ever since. They're not cheap either, but at the time, switching saved me $300 a month easily. More importantly, when the second professional organization went belly up, because I had already been with them for a year, Kaiser allowed me to continue coverage with an individual "bridge" plan for slightly higher premiums and slightly less coverage. (Saved my life and my sanity.)

I'm now in a group policy, but still with Kaiser, through my spouse's employer's plan. I would heartily recommend Kaiser to anyone - even people who can afford a lot more - and have.

Recently, I was traveling in Australia and got a really mind-blowing attack of kidney stones. I showed up at the local Emergency Room, where they took all my info, apologized profusely for the HOUR wait ("We're chockers tonight, I'm afraid, but we will get to you as soon as we can.") Asked only for my driver's license so they could copy down my name and address, informed me sadly that there was no reciprocal medical arrangement with the U.S. and that they would have to send me a bill, which I could turn over to my insurer - if I had one - or pay in installments, if need be. They took me in as soon as they had a room free, killed my pain, ran a few tests, and waited an hour for the results. Once the results came back with no complications, they gave me some painkillers and some advice on what to do if the pain came back, and sent me on my way.

Haven't gotten the bill yet, but try THAT in the U.S.

I think I've got a pretty good handle on what the problems are with our for-profit healthcare non-system from the perspective of a working person. There are some things I think we can do better collectively than we can individually and healthcare is one of them. Roads are another. I'm willing to sacrifice my freedom to choose footpaths so we can have Interstates, and I'm willing to sacrifice enriching Insurance CEOs, lobbyists and Wall Street, so we can have sane, effective healthcare.

And Mom? I don't read Daily Kos, (it's boring and predictable) but if there's anything else you'd like to fill me in on regarding who I am, what I do, eat, read, think, etc. just let me know.

McQuaidLA, can you point us to a successful, sustainable single-payer system operating in an environment even remotely similar to the United States? Also, could you please tell us which single-payer countries are responsible for the most advances in pharmaceuticals and medical technologies?

The other thing is, mcQ, by your own recount the insurance companies have probably spent more money keeping you alive than they will ever recoup from your premium payments. I think that has tainted your view of the situation just a bit.

God you are a bunch of fucking libertarian pricks. I have been a nurse for 20 years and have worked in 3 countries. The US has made me give up nursing because of the kind of elitist racist dicks like that MD who only sees human life as a commodity to exploit. As for the shithead who quotes the Daily Mail, well that's like quoting the National Enquirer or Fox News as legitimate journalism, you ignorant bastard. I for one am sick of the kind of hypocritcal ponces, like Drew Carey, who tell health professionals they're "Nazis" for pointing out that some habits, like being a fat bastard, might effect their health, and then turn around after triple bypass surgery and start spouting the virtues of healthy living. But should I deny him care? Of course not, you inhuman effluent. He's just a crappy selfish little shit like all the rest of you. You lot are a bunch of eugenicists, who would probably prefer it if we sterilized the poor, and don't think I haven't heard doctors make that comment here. Nobody is perfect, and no one "deserves" the care they get: there's no meritocracy in disease. I could make the argument that why are we treating veterans? They made a decision to get shot at and blown up. Why help people like that, when they're obviously insane. In civilized societies like Post-War Europe, where like here, the poor had made up the bulk of canon-fodder, they realized that society is not just about individual choices. It's about things like institutionalized racism and spirals of poverty, and a fucking shitty education system that only perpetuates the system. You idiots. I have actually worked here with medicaid patients for 10 years and I don't check their teeth and feet before treating them, they're not fucking horses, they're human beings that deserve dignity and respect. When you have worked in poor communities and understand where they are coming from rather than your lovely sterile ER unit, you might learn a little something. I have seen abuses, but it's not crackheads, it's those lovely rich people you like so much, with apartments on Central Park, whose lawyers know all the Medicaid loopholes so their clients can get out of paying for their parents medical bills which they could easily afford. And all you out there who have been so "responsible", well I gave up counting all those responsible patients I saw, who saved diligently, but it wasn't enough to cover 10+ years of dialysis, etc. And when you get skin cancer from your lovely fake tans, or brain tumors from you lovely hair tints, I'm afraid all that money you put away soon disappears with years of surgeries and chemo not to mention the over-priced medication, which you end up having to cut up and share with your spouse, another lovely facet of the US health "care" I commonly come across. So fuck you everyone. I'm retiring to Canada. You have the service you deserve, and believe me, it's nothing to write home about.

McQuaid, you're not coming off well here. If you show up at a US ER with kidney stones, the EXACT same thing happens. I've had to go to the ER while uninsured, it's the same thing. You get treated, you hand over your license, and you get a bill that you can take up with your insurer or pay in installments. Not that hard.

You lot are a bunch of eugenicists, who would probably prefer it if we sterilized the poor,

Actually, we're all a bunch of Adolph Hitlers. I keep my little Hitler mustache on the top of my computer so I can remember to wear it when I go out.

Here, dearie, I'll quote Bastiat:

"Socialism, like the ancient ideas from which it springs, confuses the distinction between government and society. As a result of this, every time we object to a thing being done by government, the socialists conclude that we object to its being done at all." - Frédéric Bastiat

Me? I have a program for inner city kids (speak once a month at a high school to demystify making it). According to the letters I get, I'm helping some kids in some substantial ways, by giving just a couple hours of my time once a month. What government does badly for buttloads of money, I do for free.

I generally take pleasure in helping people. Kid I know needs a job. I'm a little busy these days, but I posted an ad on Facebook, connected her with two friends of mine, helped her with her resume and cover letter at 11pm last night, and now she's got a job interview on Thursday or Friday with a really fantastic company. She's a great kid, very smart, with integrity, and she's working for a rotten, cheap fuck of a man. I hope she gets this job, and if she doesn't, I'll help her get interviews/opportunities elsewhere.

And yes, I'm a libertarian. I've paid for health insurance when I had next to nothing, because I think it's my responsibility to cover my health, and not other people's. If you undergo some terrible event, or you're mentally incapacitated, I'll throw in some money to take care of you. I think it's a humane thing to do. But, if you want to buy new tennis shoes and gold teeth and all the rest while I'm cutting back in more ways than I knew possible while working seven days a week, 5 am to midnight, just yesterday, and 5 am to 7 pm tonight...well, sorry, but tell me why I should be paying for your health care?

Also, Greta, for a nurse, from that post above -- and I say this as somebody who has great respect for nurses, who are the people in hospitals who do most of the easing of suffering -- well, you're one hateful broad!

PS As a "personal responsibilitarian," in my 20s, I thought, "Hmm, I don't have a job just for the money, and it's very possible I'll just be middle-class in terms of my earnings, so I'd better get appropriate health care." I got Kaiser then, which has been great. Not Cadillac care, but very good care. And they don't raise rates on you except by age standards.

PPS Ask my friend Catherine about medical care in Canada, Tinkerbell. She's here now, and boy is it a relief to her.

I never understood why people think eugenics is a bad thing.

Its good enough for your pet, and livestock and the plants we eat, why not our kids?

Because eugenics was used as an excuse by the Nazis. That killed the social acceptability of any discussion of eugenics, although we did still have forced sterilizations of some people for decades afterwards. But then they sued.

Over here, we've basically got Obamacare. In fact, the Swiss are very proud about it, and like to brag about how the Americans are imitating them.

I'm pretty happy with my insurance. It covers all of my basic maternity care... I have to pay for extras like the Doula and prenatal massages, but those are luxuries, not necessities, so that makes sense.

I do have to wait a long time to see the doctor... so far I've seen two, my ob-gyn and my family practitioner. In PA I didn't have to wait so long, but in MA I did. Basically, an 11 o'clock appointment gets me out around 1:30 or so. Which seems like a long time to me. But the service is excellent, they take their time with you, and my ob-gyn actually does the 3d ultrasound, not the 2d one I got in PA. My ob-gyn and I have different philosophies (she doesn't understand why I want to go the natural route) but I can't complain about the quality of care. And everything is so much cleaner and better furnished.

If I want to go to a private clinic or if I want a private room if I'm operated on I have to get extra insurance. We've decided we don't need that, we'll deal. Natural remedies like homeopathy add an extra 10 bucks or so to our monthly insurance bill, as does international travel insurance.

Our insurance is less expensive than it was in the States, but the employer doesn't cover any of it. So we end up paying a bit more out of pocket, but not very much. About 50 a month or so.

The annoying thing, which is probably a good thing for society but annoying for me, is for most stuff you pay up front, and then get reimbursed by the insurance. So you DO feel the hit when you go to the doctor's... my last ob-gyn cost me 134 chf (about the same in usd) and I went "ouch". But I'll get reimbursed for it. In the meantime it means I pay more attention to how much I spend.

the nazis never used eugenics, the used genocide and discussed using eugenics.

The opponents of eugenics just use the nazis as a foil to shut down discussion.

"Also, Greta, for a nurse, from that post above -- and I say this as somebody who has great respect for nurses, who are the people in hospitals who do most of the easing of suffering -- well, you're one hateful broad!"

I'd say Greta's suffering from burnout, and has lost perspective. It may indeed be time for the aforementioned retirement.

"why are we treating veterans?" Um, BECAUSE IT WAS PART OF THE ENLISTMENT AGREEMENT. Put yourself in harm's way to protect us, and we'll take care of you if you get injured. Which is why it's so outrageous when we provide them with shit health care and mental health services. But saying they made a decision to get shot at and blown up is showing your ugly, ma'am. Best stuff that ugly little word-demon back down from whence it came.

Nevertheless, Lujip, the two are linked in the public mind, which makes social discussion of the subject impossible.

That, and the fact that we did sterilize undesirables until recently, and it was (is) seen by society as having been part of an ethnic cleansing thing.

Amy,

What do I give a shit what Ben Ehrenreich and his girlfriend did for a broken ankle? I have paid insurance my whole goddamn adult life. Did you MISS that somewhere? The point you all seem to miss here is that THEY paid for her broken ankle too, when they paid their taxes. (Where the hell is your collective head?)

(And so, poor Cathy Seipp had to wait five hours at Cedars E.R.? The logical conclusion to me would be that Cedars sucks, too.) And since it appears that that is the norm now, I would say, the healthcare delivery sucks in this country whether you're rich OR poor.

Now, CB, can you please tell me what it is that makes the U.S. so very, very different from every other goddamned developed nation on Earth that actually has an organized healthcare system? Is it our size? Are you saying we're not smart enough to work with that? Doesn't seem to be a problem for all our super-terrific private health insurers that you love so much. Are we too big to fail? And even if we were the only country on earth that ever came up with a new idea or innovation, it doesn't have much meaning if only a few people have the means to access it.

And as far as your question regarding medical advances in single-payer countries, a quick scan of the Nobel Prizes for medicine and physiology reveals Germany, France and the UK. Does it come as a shock to you that yes, other countries also have smart people and also innovate and yes, also bring those innovations to that "market" I bet you love to fellate whenever it whips it out?

And Cousin Dave, Since you feel so very bad for the insurance companies, why don't you double your monthly premium and give the excess as a gift? Insurance is essentially a bet. I bet that I will need it, the Insurer bets that I won't. Except when the "House" just cancels the payout when I "win." Please tell me where else THAT is legal. Again, let me repeat since it appears that most of you missed it: I HAVE HAD HEALTH INSURANCE MY ENTIRE ADULT LIFE! Either my employer has paid it or I have paid it. Is this hard to understand?

And Jenny, As you might have figured out by now, I've never been to an E.R. without health insurance. But I can tell you, even WITH health insurance in the U.S., the wait has always been five hours, AND they're aren't lifting a finger until I show them my Insurance card AND a credit card.

Would it interest you to know that until the recent Recession, Medical Bills were the Number One cause of Bankruptcy in this country?

No, probably not. Better to let the "Free Market" work its "Magic" til we're all practicing "Personal Responsibility" in the streets.

And regarding Eugenics? Uh, the Nazis didn't just discuss it, they practiced it. It was called "The Final Solution." See, for the Nazis, Jews, homosexuals, Socialists and Gypsies were the same as the mentally and physically "retarded." They were all considered an unfortunate blight on Humanity. "Undesirables" is a very subjective term. It all depends on who's doing the designating. That's why we try not to let anyone do it anymore. But I can see that several of you long for a return to the Good Old Days.

Yes, Hitler is the "go-to" slam of the millenium. I was responding to someone else's comment regarding the practice of Eugenics and how it had been tainted by Hitler's interest in it. (Margaret Sanger, who founded Planned Parenthood was also a fan - of Eugenics, not Hitler). Genetic Counseling is a variation of Eugenic principles, in my opinion.

As far as paying for a homeless, mentally ill or otherwise incapacitated person getting medical care - yes, great. Except that we don't do that, either. Evidence: the Number of mentally ill homeless we see wandering the streets. What happens when they really act out is we incarcerate them. In jails. Where they are sitting ducks for all kinds of abuse. But as you know, public hospitals receive public funding - which is generated through tax revenues last time I checked, hence my comment regarding Ehrenreich's girlfriend.

My perspective on this is so fundamentally different from that of most of your readers - and you - there's little point in throwing my two cents into this one. When it comes to certain fundamental human needs, I'm a collectivist. Other stuff, I'm all for free enterprise. Healthcare is not one of those things.

Didnt Obama recive a nobel prize? Didnt Arafat?

Appaerently nobel prizes arent that had to get