The first expression that comes to mind is "throw away the key".

But from what we know of this guy, his was the kind of shyness that would have been gravely wounded even if it had been a heterosexual (or top-tier normative) encounter. Plus, y'know, these perps were kids, and kids are cruel. I've read somewhere that their backgrounds were in no way anti-gay, they just did some hazing that got out of hand.

About twenty years ago there was a college hazing nightmare that was in the papers for a few weeks. I've forgotten the details. Someone wrote a column and said (paraphrase) 'Hazers will always pretend their shenanigans are the introductory ceremonies to adulthood, but actually they're the closing ceremonies to childhood', which I think is correct. This was probably the last year of this kid's life when he'd have been both [A] so sensitive about public perceptions of these private matters and [B] so socially close to someone who could be so intrusively brutal.

So for the moment, I think the kids who do this are only between 60% - 90% of being the worst monsters who ever lived... (Although I haven't made any room for the bullies in my grade school since LBJ was president, either.) So it would be OK with me if their punishment was to... I don't know.... Let's say, lock them up until they're about 80 years old, and THEN have a scout troop go and try to find the key.

And let them out then.

If the scouts find the key.

Anyone remember this one?

Y'know, folks, sex is the Big One. We don't get to decide how other people feel about it.

From the sounds of things he probably also would have posted it if it was a girl, as long as there was some reason that it would be embarrassing for his roommate, like if she were exceptionally obese

I'm trying to understand why Clementi felt his only recourse was suicide. Yeah, he could have sued...and gotten nothing, since you can't get blood from a stone. He might have done the talk show circuit, as the victim of the world's cruelest practical joke. But that would have been the end of whatever chance he had an normalcy and anonymity. I doubt this prank would have ruined his life, and it likely would have been forgotten relatively quickly, but an eighteen year old can't see that far. At eighteen, there most embarrassing moments, likely as recently as high school, are still there to haunt them.

Crid, ah, yes, the Schmitz/Amedure incident. While Schmitz didn't, of course, have to shoot Amedure, I'm having a really hard time trying to find a whole lot of sympathy for Amedure. Schmitz told him he wasn't interested...so why did Amedure engage in systematic sexual harassment, leaving obscene notes and pulling various other tasteless pranks?

No means no. Being gay doesn't give you the right to harass disinterested parties.

I understand completely, and it has nothing to do with his being gay.

It's a matter of feeling like you are no longer in control of your world. You figure you will not be able to get control back, and conclude "well, if I just die, then I don't have to feel the pain any more."

This is why depressed people kill themselves. Not because they are sad, but because they feel like they are no longer in control of their own lives.

I'm glad the names of the people who tormented him are being punished. I'd almost say no other punishment is warranted. They have to live with this forever. Can you imagine living with this?

I was horrified at the "webcast sex" in "American Pie" (which movie I did not see but the scene has been made notorious outside of the movie) which seems not essentially different from this case. Yet seemed to think it was sooo funny.
I'm not saying the movie led to the latest incident but isn't it on a continuum of some kind?

How much control do we ever really have over our world? We can control our actions and reactions, but that is about it. Honestly I don't feel to much sympathy for the suicide in this case. Ok it was embarassing, but big deal. Quite frankly there's a little bit of narcisism to this particular suicide. As if everyone around him was going to be focused upon him as a result of a little embarassment. C'mon people, would any of you even bothered giving the guy even the semblance of a hard time after this? Likely he'd have gotten a few jokes thrown his way, but his melodramatic solution (suicide) was a way over the top response for a little public nudity.

If it had happened to one of my friends I'd have said something like:

"Guy, so you rocked out with your cock out, now unless it was so small the zoom in had to be on to catch it on film, you've got nothing to jump off a bridge over. Quit your bitching and lets go grab a beer and go kill some aliens on the new Halo game."

Mr. Sensitive I am not.

Robert - to an 18 year old, it doesn't work that way. Everything that goes awry is the end of the world. Doubly so if that person was an outcast.

Some manage to reason their way out of it, some don't make it that far.

At 18, yes he WOULD get a lot of flack, Robert, from the other asshats like the ones who streamed it. I can see how at that age he thought it was all over. If these perps don't get the 5 year max, then there is no justice in life.

Because for people like this, there will BE no guilt for being responsible. The only way to punish them is take something from them.

Like Robert I can't feel too much sympathy for the deceased here. The hate crime allegations tossed out in some media reports are most absurd. I suppose if Clementi came from a background that was eh, homophobic (thus he had extra shame) that would factor in but the DA would have to prove that was knowledge obtained by the accused somehow.

5 years seems silly for a punishment. Karma will follow these folks. The guy sadly chose to kill himself ultimately.

Say - does this stuff happen in Europe?

I ask because of the apparent American shame about the ordinary desires people have and the things they do.

Look around the next time in the grocery store. Almost all of the people in there have sex, however unattractive; they emit gases, their feet stink - and they care about this not at all the same.

If you point any of that out, some of them freak out.

Winston Rowntree had something to say about this.

I'm just suggesting that if we were actually more honest about how things are, vs. how we want them to be, maybe fewer tragedies like this would happen.

A matter of degree:

At what point can my pointing out what you really do become my fault?

I think advice addressed to the new e-nation is great, but I find the idea that we have some unique power these days to invade people's privacy and destroy lives ahistorical. Back when people were confined to the social circle around their villages, lives could just as easily be ruined by whispers campaigns or denunciations to the authorities (She's a witch! Burn her!). The medium has changed but human nature is the same.

There are always two sides to every story - at least.

I can see the deceased making his hetero roomie's life miserable.

Roommate situations can be incredibly intense - and cruel. At any age, but especially at this age.

Well, Robert given there are people in america who want to kill gay people - indeed even donate money to afrian churches doing it, I'd say we heteros have no idea what sort of pressures gay youth have to deal with

Was this a horrible result? Yes. Should these kids receive special punishment? No, because they had no idea that he would kill himself. There was no intent to do great bodily harm ... just cause embarrassment. They should be punished for their crime, which is invasion of privacy. And if there was ever a situation which called for awarding the full 5 year penalty, this would be it.

Please. If it had been a girl he would have been trying to find a way to cash I on it. But yeah he was an asshole. No matter what or who the other boy was doing posting it online after spying on him and recording it was shallow and cruel.

Also, I don't remember being that dramatic when I was 17. And I was an abused foster kid so WTF. Not only did i have years of child abuse to deal with and a lousy foster mother.. My stuff disappeared all the time.. My foster sisters called my future MIL and told her the baby I was carrying wasn't her sons.. There were far worse things they did that I can't even post here.. I was so ready to be away from their crap but I would have never killed myself. He was a bit delicate for sure.

> I can see the deceased making his hetero
> roomie's life miserable

What on Earth do you mean?

Being forced out of the closet publicly is humiliating for a shy college kid, especially with some of the comments and jokes at a gay person's expense. I've read news reports that the victim felt traumatized not only by the video being posted, but by comments on a site sympathizing with the roomie for having to room with a "queer." The comments were cruel and not one questioned the decision to invade privacy and stream a private act.

I have to agree with Robert about suicide. I feel terrible about what happened to the young man and think that the roommate should go to prison for his actions. But, suicide, unless you are terminally ill, is one of the most selfish and ignorant actions a person can commit. I would even go further than Robert and say there is more than a 'bit' of narcisism involved.

Was suicide a deliberate act to ensure that the roommate is punished as harshly as possible both socially and legally? An evil response to ensure the jerk is labelled a pariah for life while also ensuring that the guy will be haunted mentally forever? Even if that was not part of the intention, what about his family?

It may seem heartless to some readers but I really have no ounce of sympathy for suicides, in fact, I feel nothing but contempt for suicides. Maybe it was the father down the street who left his body for his young son to find that forever embittered me to suicide. Or manybe I just hate stupid, selfish losers.

Let's be honest, the only reason that this is a story is because people assume that Clementi was secretly gay. If he'd jumped off of a bridge because he'd been caught masturbating, the treatment would be much less sympathetic.

The press is trying to spin this into another Matthew Shepard story. But there's no evidence of a pattern of bullying, or HATE. Certainly nothing to warrant the murder charges that people are calling for.

Bullying is being pushed by the MSM as a reason to restrict the ability of individuals to disseminate candid coverage of people and events. They don't want the competition.

"The press is trying to spin this into another Matthew Shepard story. But there's no evidence of a pattern of bullying, or HATE."

I have to say that if someone had recorded and publicly circulated my private sexual activities for others to mock, I would consider that bullying. Yes, I'm sure the kids didn't intend to have it turn out the way it did, but attempts to downplay their actions astonish me.

Some people are raging assholes. Technology lets them be raging assholes much faster and in front of a larger audience. It doesn't change human nature, it just exposes it a lot faster.

On the poor guy who felt suicide was his only way out . . . I remember being a rather quiet and depressed teen. Something like this would have absolutely detroyed me.

We have a family in our neighborhood where the teenage boy is obviously gay, and his Christian Evangelical father hates homosexuals. It's going to be a really sad day when the truth comes out.

I don't think the claims of narcissism may apply here. The kid's head was probably spinning and he probably hadn't slept in days. When I was his age I had a Jim Morrison fixation about poetic death, and all in all I had a great teenage experience.

PS- Very cool link Rad.

> Being forced out of the closet publicly is
> humiliating for a shy college kid

Which is why I asked people to consider the older story.

Those who'd argue that the Jones TV show producers had no culpability can't say Ravi & Wei are especially guilty because there's a homosexual angle in this circumstance...

But of course they will. As Amy demonstrated so reprehensibly when Merv Griffin died, some people think they know EXACTLY what your sexuality is supposed to me to you... And to everyone else.

Eric's got that goddam Riders on the Storm bass line stuck in my head.

Like a dog without a bone,
an actor out on loan....

See, that's what I'm saying. At 18 I thought that was deep. Prufrock deep.

C'mon Amy, light my fire.
C'mon Amy, light my fire.

NicoleK wrote:

I'm glad the names of the people who tormented him are being punished. I'd almost say no other punishment is warranted. They have to live with this forever. Can you imagine living with this?

I assume that the first "punished" should have been "published". My answer is "Sure, and there's no f@*king way that's enough!"

Bernie Madoff's name was published; was no other punishment warranted? Charlie Manson's? Sirhan Sirhan's?

Do you object that these men committed their crimes deliberately, while the roommate didn't intend that the butt of the prank should die? I'll concede the point, but I will demand that drunk drivers and negligent parents also be allowed to go free, with their names published in the local newspaper; they, too, never meant for some stranger/their kid to die.

"I was only joking" is not a get-out-of-jail-free card.

Why am I thinking that those who do not understand the young man's action have a "bully" in them?

So how, exactly, is this different from the sealed divorce records being leaked to the press that gave us Senator Obama? It seems like a majority of Illinois voters are OK with sleaze, and I'm sure my state is no better. If you weren't outraged then, why do you pretend to care now?

A society that tolerates that can expect this.

I'm just glad I grew up in less technologically advanced, but more civilized times.

> So how, exactly, is this different from
> the sealed divorce records being leaked
> to the press that gave us Senator Obama?

About 15 different ways. If I weren't at work, I'd list seven of them.

This and the story about the girl suing the widower and father of the people she killed are depressing as all hell. I'm going to go hide under my bed until people stop sucking.

I'm going to go hide under my bed until people stop sucking.

I'm contemplating joining you.

Pack many, many sandwiches.

> So how, exactly, is this different

The intimacy this very, very young man was pursuing was in no way a violation any vows of intimacy, as was Ryan's tomfoolery.

Art, I definitely do think that intent makes a difference. Obviously they were bullies, and school disciplinary action makes a lot of sense. If this guy HADN'T jumped off the bridge, would you still be arguing for a harsh punishment?

These kids are going to have to live with this forever. This is going to haunt them. They can never make up for it. Just think about that, think about living with that.

If you do something deliberately, kill someone or cheat them on purpose, you've already killed your conscience.

But can't you imagine... hell, if I were in their shoes I'd probably want to kill -myself- after that. I can't imagine it.

I bullied a girl once, horribly, I was awful and mean and in front of other girls too. I still feel guilty about it, but thankfully I apologized to her before graduating. If I hadn't, though... these things haunt one.

Erm, I didn't go so far as to post videos up. I said mean, cutting remarks to her. But it still haunts me and its something to live with. I am so thankful, reading this article, that I had the chance to apologize and that she didn't go and harm herself.

I doubt Nicolek's going to get much support for her point, but in ten thousand other cases, there would have been no consequences like this, and everyone's lives would have moved on into typical adulthood.

I've been gratified by how many columnists, including the gay-rights types, have pointed out that the problem with here is with the hazing, and not (especially) with the gay angle.

I can also imagine Ravi's & Wei's parents being dumbfounded, having never thought of their children as especially evil.

So maybe I'm obsessive here, but again:

At what point does pointing out what you really do become my fault?

Ben-David: > I can see the deceased making his hetero
> roomie's life miserable

Crid: What on Earth do you mean?

Come on, Crid. It's Ben-David. His anti-gay rhetoric should be pretty familiar to you by now. He simply means, because gays are such horrid, horrid people, that we can quite naturally conclude that he was making his heterosexual roommate's life miserable.

Gays being as vile as they are, after all, their purpose in life is to afflict heterosexuals. Gays can no more avoid tormenting heterosexuals than they can avoid breathing.

Actually they weren't bullies. The facts that are coming out indicate that they were attempting to snoop on him secretly using a webcam. They never told him what they did, or were doing, and didn't otherwise threaten or harass him. But he caught onto it and reported them to the RA and other staff. But it doesn't appear that he told Ravi that he was onto him. So everyone carried on as though everything was normal.

If they didn't want Clementi to know what they were doing, and didn't think that he'd find out, then they obviously weren't trying to bully him.

This situation is egregious and probably actionable, but there doesn't seem to be much to support the idea that it's bullying or a hate crime. More so the work of a immature and vindictive roommate.

It's likely to turn out that there were other factors at play, because Clementi's behavior and statements after finding out don't suggest that he was so destroyed by the incident that he wanted to kill himself.

the fuzz, get real, please.

So, because they didn't disclose what they were doing...yet, it means they weren't bullying him. You have no idea of what their long range plans for him were, once this became widespread knowledge with the fusillade of taunts and abuse that was sure to come his way.

please, these were just immature jerks. When I was 18 I was a very immature person who did things on impulse without thinking them thru. Me, I might have done same expecting a reaction to be an ass-whooping or something, not that some fragile flower would go oft himself because of my stupidity. Violation of privacy sure, expulsion from sschool is a must, max sentence, no

I just want to add, I remember my freshman year in college. Reputation was everything, and nasty rumors were the end of the world.

Now granted, gay acceptance is a lot better than what it was a mere 28 years ago, when I was a college freshman. I would have no sooner admitted my homosexuality to anyone than I would have drank a bottle of sulfuric acid.

But I remember that as a college freshman -- and I doubt I was alone in this -- acceptance was too important. It was the kind of all-consuming, monomaniac importance. Certainly more important than your studies.

oh, and I was bullied by some street toughs until I was about 16 and figured out I actually had to fight back. Now that was real bullying, beaten up, money stolen, humiliation. Ultimately we are responsible for our own surroundings and personal interactions

Radwaste: At what point does pointing out what you really do become my fault?

Sophomoric question, and one that isn't really applicable here. They didn't "point out" what he did. They videoed a private, intimate moment at a time when he had a reasonable expectation of privacy, and literally sent it out to the world.

How about this? Pointing out what I do becomes your fault when you violate my right to privacy.

There. That wasn't so hard, was it?

In the first story of the Hornblower series, the painfully-shy protagonist has just joined his first ship--which is anchored and doing nothing--at the age of 17. He is mercilessly bullied by an older midshipman, and resolves on suicide..until he decides on the alternative of challenging the other man to a duel. Unfortunately, the older man is a much better shot and swordsman; however, Hornblower chooses a kind of duel in which his survival will be determined by pure chance--so he has "only" a 50-50 chance of dying. It seems to him like a good trade for the end of the bullying.

It's only a story, of course, set in the early 1800s and written in the 1930s. But the impulses of mockery and cruelty, unintentional or otherwise, are age-old, as is the self-consciousness and hypersensitivity of youth.

How many secret identities are you running, anyway?

David, that story in that book was 100% awesome!

Crid: How many secret identities are you running, anyway?

I'm also you, by the way.

coo-coo-a-choo.

Sorry, don't buy it. Ultra delicate.

Sure its embarassing, maybe seriously so.

But hell, the guy was getting laid, his roommate obviously wasn't. If I found out, I'd turn it around on him.

I just can't feel that bad for someone over an embarassment that the whole world would forget in a weekend.

When was the last time any of you gave a thought to the Star Wars kid?

The video perv and his buddies are jackasses. No argument there from me.

Bullies? No. Bullies enjoy making their victim suffer, this guy didn't suffer anything until he found out what was going on, they went out of their way to avoid alerting him to their voyuerism.

I'm reasonably sure they didn't anticipate a suicide. And hopefully they feel some guilt.

But suicide here is a gross overreaction to what is essentially momentary mortification. OK it was a big deal to him, but would any of YOU kill yourselves over it, would you have at 18? I sure wouldn't have. Hell some people make a whole profession out of screwing for an audience.

It sucks that the kid offed himself, but lets be realistic here, somebody who was THAT fragile was going to do it sooner or later anyway.

Question:

Ok, the roommate was broadcasting and watching his roommate do other guys. Now I don't know ANY straight male that wants to watch two guys slamming each other...so am I the only one here wondering if maybe the roommate himself was gay as well?

Please look at this link: http://www.youtube.com/itgetsbetterproject

It was started by Dan Savage in response to a gay teenager's suicide. Many gay people share their poignant stories about how difficult it was for them during their teen years. They want to reassure young people that it does get better.

While suicide may not make sense to you, a person with a healthy self-image and support from family and friends, it may seem the best option for those who have not found the same.

I only listened to one video, but it was very touching. Not everyone is gay, but most of us have experienced pain. It's nice to know that things can (and most likely will) get better.

He probably will have a few boyfriends in prison...

Was there some other reason this guy was terrified of being outed, e.g. are his parents anti-homosexual? If so, then his suicide may have more to do with that, than the humiliation itself. Or he was already depressed and contemplating suicide. Who knows. It's a knee-jerk reaction to want to string somebody up when something like this happens, but how much of the background and reality and complexity of the situation can we really claim we know here?

"It sucks that the kid offed himself, but lets be realistic here, somebody who was THAT fragile was going to do it sooner or later anyway."

I tend to agree, and I was a pretty fragile kid myself.

"These kids are going to have to live with this forever. This is going to haunt them. ... I bullied a girl once, horribly, I was awful and mean and in front of other girls too. I still feel guilty about it"

Sorry, but we cannot make that assumption either. Some people really are just bad. I had somebody physically beat me in school on a near-daily basis for years, and all he ever did was laugh about it, and it never got old for him. He physically assaulted others too, even breaking another kid's wrist. Some people are just rotten. Not saying these kids are, but you can't know. People should not be let off the hook simply because they "might already feel bad about what they do", what kind of basis for a justice system would that be? And these kids are 18, more than old enough to know better.

I agree that this kid was probably overly fragile, but what an awful thing for his family to have to deal with.

I was bullied some in junior high school, and while I don't get angry about it any more, I still remember most of their names.

Lobster, I suspect that Tyler Clementi, being a dedicated violinist, probably had dreams of becoming a great musician. It's entirely possible that he was afraid his celebrity would be tainted by this incident.

We all adore Raddy... But sometimes his rhetoric gets a little colorless, and we can't really see what he's getting at. This would be one of those times:

> At what point does pointing out what you
> really do become my fault?

Pointing out what WHO really does, WHAT are they doing, and why are you concerned that anyone would think it's YOUR fault?

I am sincerely curious about what you're trying to say.

I mean, if you're pointing out something, and pointing out is a bad thing to do, than it's your fault. Because you pointed it out. But...

What do you mean?

Here's another incident of a gay student being bullied, this time by the assistant AG. I read this story and I think, what the fuck is the assistant AG's problem?

By the time I was a senior I had put the slights and such from high school mostly behind me. I had a future laid out -- USAF -- and I realized I only needed minimal approval from peers.

Twenty-five+ years down the road:

I now move about my life knowing I know what is right from wrong, and what others may inflict on me and what is the truth.

But I will never go to a high school reunion or hold my school years with nostalgia. F' them, I don't need them to validate whatever I have decided and what I am.

If someone were to make my private (and/or significant others') life a public issue -- regardless of age -- especially in this fashion -- woe unto them.

But an 18 year old without a the same internal constitution would be embarrassed his personal life being filmed. I don't care if he were having sex with a man, woman, goat or calf -- his roommate (or anyone else) has no right to expose it.

Granted he chose suicide, but I think his family has a valid wrongful death lawsuit on their ands.

Patrick and Crid:

What I'm asking is just how far back we all have to stand; how little we can speak or otherwise comment on the activities of other people.

For instance, Amy herself has said on this blog that she has had an abortion. To another person, making that public might be traumatic.

Yet the law is supposed to treat people equally.

Technically, if you do something, telling the world or telling a close friend doesn't change what you did: it only changes the number of people who know about it.

Do you have an expectation of privacy when you have a roommate? About what?

Over the years, I have become less and less sensitive about what is revealed about how this old bag of mostly water is working. I've been through boot camp, and lately, cardiologists and proctologists have enriched their lives with my acquaintance. You can't shock me with a post of my ECG or a picture of my colon.

Of course, statistically, these things don't influence employment or social status on my part.

All sorts of information about you is already out there. US Search will release a bunch of stuff to anyone who has a credit card. If I buy it, then publish it free, what have I done that's actionable?

How about other situations?
If I take a picture of you on the street? With other people? How about a video?
How about a picture of you in your apartment doing nothing? There are millions of those on-line.

Yes, you can sue for anything in civil court. This also isn't about whether the cameraman in the case above is an ass. I'm looking for a sense of "the expectation of privacy", as well as trying to point out that societal pressure establishes the kind of shame that can force someone into violence.

Yes, it makes sense that only you can release a photo of yourself within your domicile or in select other situations where privacy is desirable. But the cases above argue intent, and like hate crimes, there are cases where trying to establish intent is ridiculous.

How would Failblog determine their content is harmless?

>> If someone were to make my private (and/or significant others') life a public issue -- regardless of age -- especially in this fashion -- woe unto them.

And that says it all. I wish this kid had a lifetime of experience to handle it another way. It's just a sad fucking waste all around he's gone. Maybe he would have acted differently if he knew how many mourned his death.

And I don't think these other morons were the worst humanity has to offer, just sad all around.

> Do you have an expectation of privacy when
> you have a roommate?

That question is too grown-up. See my earlier comment about hazing being the last eruption of childhood in adult life.

I never paid any attention to all the sentimental generational bullshit that people offered at graduation ceremonies and so forth. ("The class of '81 will be an inquisitive, daring group....") Pomp and circumstance is a wonderful tune, but it's got nothing to do with the experiences I had with the people who happened to turn up at the graduation ceremony with me. With maybe three exceptions, I haven't seen any of them since we took off those hideous pastel polyester robes.

These people aren't selected friends, and they aren't burdensome family: They're just a selection of assholes from the neighborhood. Clementi was in that the last throes of that horrible time when we're compelled to pretend that the people nearby are people we should trust and admire, people whose personal insanity is something we should have to make sense of. Within another year or so, he'd not have been expected to trust his roommate not to take pictures of him fucking. Adults don't do that, and adult roommates don't worry about it.

Again, this is much more about hazing than anything gay.

And so I ask the parents, or anyone who happens to be a child of parents: Do children not torture each other because they're explicitly TOLD NOT TO, or because the general ethical outlines of their childhood show them not to?

Did Ravi and Wei bring this horror to pass because they're [A] cruel, [B] irresponsibly raised or [C] just unlucky?

One of my favorite series of posts from the Seipp blog discussed this, as a teenage daughter went to college (I think in San Diego), and was wise enough to understand that her roommate wasn't necessarily supposed to be her best friend ever, even if the roommate didn't understand that.

What laws did they break in New Jersey? Of course they should be charged with whatever laws they broke. However, it seems publishing sex tapes of other people has become pretty common, like that girl who got gang-raped (it was on Salon a couple weeks ago). For some reason, people don't seem to be charged with anything serious. Maybe publishing sex tapes without disclosure and consent, since its become fairly common, needs to become a more serious crime.

They should be kicked out of school... did the article say if they had been? Every school I've been to has had a strong no-hazing policy laid out pretty clearly in the student handbook.

In HS, I was mentioned in suicide note as one of the reasons he was committing suicide. He gave 3 reasons, the first was his GF broke up with him and the other two were completely silly. I don't remember the 2nd, but the third I was involved with. At times it still bothers me even though I know objectively it was a completely ridicules thing - one of my friends said something to the guy that he thought was mean - my friend actually considered it something cool. That was 3 years before the attempt.

When I was in college, being gay and especially lesbian was cool and this was at a relatively conservative college. I know of a few people that later came out as straight. The most looked down on group social was the awkward straight white guys - which is what this sounded like when I first heard the story. That was also true in HS.

I think the topic does open some interesting questions about the topics of privacy and tech. Lets say instead he was at a small party making out with someone and another person at the party records it or even just takes pictures and shows it to other people...what then? All those cameras cause a problem.

I heard recently that a new trend is in adition to having an R.S.V.P there is a line about no social media alllowed, don't post about the party, don't post photos, etc.

Radwaste: Do you have an expectation of privacy when you have a roommate? About what?

I would say that if the roommate agrees to make himself scarce until x time, you have a reasonable expectation of privacy until then.

You make it sound like this offense is so vague...only to morons.

If you have a roommate, do you have the right to expect not to videostreamed when you're having sex? Apparently to you, that's debatable. To those of us with at least the common sense God gave a radish, it's not.

You'd be very interesting to live with, that's for sure. Your roommate would start videostreaming you in the shower or while you're taking a dump and you'll be scratching your head and wondering if you have a reasonable expectation of privacy and wonder if it was just violated.

The anonymity of internet/ electronic devices allows people to be very rude.

I have no idea how to turn this tide. I just make certain that all my comments posted online are the same as comments I would make face to face with my grandmother in the room.

Best advice I ever received was "hurtful things cannot be unsaid so shut up and THINK before you speak."

No, Patrick - what is the position of the law?

People are being charged criminally for things based on the outcome - which differs radically depending on the subject.

I have no problem whatsoever with you posting whatever you're doing on the Web. If you read back, you'll see that I also have no problem whatsoever with your being gay.

But when the output to the Web is the same, regardless of the person posting it, it bothers me that there is a disparity of reaction that the poster can't predict - and then they are being charged with crimes based on the consequences, which were possible, but not likely.

Yes, you can take action yourself if you are slandered or libeled. So can your estate, if you decide you're so mortified you end it all. But punishments for the invasion of privacy are being treated very much like hate crimes. They're bringing out the Thought Police.

It seems to me, using your logic Rad, that a drunk driver who kills a family in an accident should just be charged with drunk driving. Very often our laws prosecute unintended consequences.

Yes, you can take action yourself if you are slandered or libeled. So can your estate, if you decide you're so mortified you end it all. But punishments for the invasion of privacy are being treated very much like hate crimes. They're bringing out the Thought Police.

Conflating slander/libel with privacy is an issue. If I and my SO partake of less than mainstream activities in the privacy of our bedroom, I have a reasonable expectation of privacy. If my SO were to record/publish it w/o my consent -- she would be gone -- but that is a personal issue. If you record/publish it w/o my consent or knowledge it is not libel/slander because it true.

That you have violated my privacy is a different issue. I have a reasonable expectation that in my home (even a dorm room) is a private location. What I do there in the absence of my roommate is my business. If I want to sit around naked, drink until I puke, look at porn on my computer, sleep, beat my meat, etc. it should not be transmitted to others without my permission.

This is the issue at hand.

A well known English parliament member was found, a number of years ago, dressed in womens' lingerie and heels and had died from self-imposed auto-erotic self strangulation. If he had survived, do you think he would have wanted the information published? Again being true is the defense against libel and slander. But should the information be up to his choice to reveal? Or is it your choice to publish private information about that person? This is the same thing that the HIPAA laws were designed to address.

Rad, ridiculous.

They're not being punished for the outcome. If they were, they could be looking at a lot more than five years max. The crime would be no different if he had not decided to end his life.

And my answer to your question stands.

A well known English parliament member was found, a number of years ago, dressed in womens' lingerie and heels and had died from self-imposed auto-erotic self strangulation.

Posted by: Jim P. at October 2, 2010 8:35 AM

_________________________

And, back then, Jay Leno said: "In England, this is known as 'death by natural causes.' "

My initial thought was that suicide was an extreme response, but there's much we don't know. He may have had a history of being bullied in high school - not unusual for gay teens - and he may have had a history of depression - not unusual for anyone who's been bullied for years. This may have been the culmination of years of bad treatment at the hands of others.

And I don't anyone has a right to say what another person should be able to live with - whether it's a chronic illness, a debilitating condition (which is as true of depression as of MS or Parkinson's), or a shameful public incident.

Well said, Silas. The infamy these two students are going to experience as a result of this "prank" is deserved, I think. The thing is, when you mess with people's heads the way they did, you can't predict the outcome. Which is a good reason why you shouldn't mess with people's heads. I feel sorry for the boy's parents.

Right, but this is why I was asking... Do the children who DON'T drive each other to suicide avoid hazing because their parents told them explicitly NOT to tease fat kids? Or not to videotape roomies blowing boyfriends? Or not to dip pigtails in inkwells?

The point that the best voices are making is that hazing is something young people do. And in some stressful circumstances, it happens for good an perhaps worthwhile reasons... Young soldiers want to know that every punk in the platoon isn't going to turn into a coward when things get rough in the theater.

No, Patrick - what is the position of the law?

People are being charged criminally for things based on the outcome - which differs radically depending on the subject.
-Radwaste

I drive drunk and dont kill anyone I get a DUI, I drive drunk and do kill some one I get charged with manslaughter, if not murder.

I fire a gun into the air I get charged with wreckless endangerment, the bullet falls and kills someone I get charged with killing them.

Of course the punishment depends on the outcome. Now if you want to agrue the forseeableness (is that even a word?) of a suicde after being involentarily outed vs stray bullet deaths and drunk driving deaths have at it.

But argueing outcome has no impact on punishments is just dumb

Hah! It's kind of amazing. Have a costume party and invite Brits, and half the men will come in drag. Never been able to figure that one out.

Posted by: Amy Alkon

Its the only acceptable public social outlet for their sexual repression

Okay.

When you get to determining what a reasonable expectation of the consequences of the action is for prosecution, of course shooting somebody is different from shooting a car or a building or a bank of dirt. How is posting a video on the Internet to be compared to driving drunk or firing a gun?

Ok, I sympathize with this kid. Really I do.

That said... what his roommate did was NOT murder. Yes, it was embarrassing- but I hesitate calling it more than that. In the end it was Clementi's decision to make- and a pretty stupid one at that.

Neither of these two roommates sound like real gems here.

This and the story about the girl suing the widower and father of the people she killed are depressing as all hell. I'm going to go hide under my bed until people stop sucking.

Then you'd better make sure somebody's there to give you food, water, and a bedpan, because you're going to be under there a long time.

> In the end it was Clementi's decision to make-
> and a pretty stupid one at that.

An earlier commenter brushed up against a favorite idea of mine, that we shouldn't judge suicides too harshly. I like that idea because it coheres to another favorite: Envy is foolish, because we never know what someone else is feeling. Maybe this shy young man was so gutted by the intrusion that another day of happiness would really have been impossible.

I don't think so, but it's at least possible, and saying so doesn't exonerate the roommates.

When you're drunk and you get behind the wheel of a car, you can't predict the outcome, although most people who do this would say that they're "fine to drive."

The basis of this prank--posting a video of a person being intimate with someone else--is bad enough, not even factoring in that this was a same-sex situation with a victim who didn't appear to be out of the closet.

Sorry, but saying "Oh, I didn't know this could happen," just doesn't cut it. Even in this over-exposed world we're living in, there are still some people who enjoy their privacy and these two mean-spirited fuckwits are old enough to be aware of that.

And, just like a drunk who doesn't think his/her vehicle can turn into a dangerous weapon, I don't think these young people should be excused for their behaviour. It resulted in a death: just like a victim of a drunk-driving accident is just as dead whether the driver intended it or not--they, like a drunk driver, must be held accountable for the outcome, not their intentions.

Crid writes: An earlier commenter brushed up against a favorite idea of mine, that we shouldn't judge suicides too harshly. I like that idea because it coheres to another favorite: Envy is foolish, because we never know what someone else is feeling. Maybe this shy young man was so gutted by the intrusion that another day of happiness would really have been impossible.

Perhaps this will come out one day from his family, but I'm wondering if he did it because he felt the incident would taint whatever celebrity he attained.

He was a very dedicated violinist. Quite possibly he had aspirations of becoming professional. Quite possibly he felt that being videostreamed having sex would be a blemish on his fame. People would remember him as "the fag violinist who was on the internet having sex."

Infantile daydreams about untainted celebrity are not something we should worry too much about defending. Again, this is more about the impulse to haze than any gay angle.

Crid: Infantile daydreams about untainted celebrity are not something we should worry too much about defending. Again, this is more about the impulse to haze than any gay angle.

I didn't say the rationale was good or realistic. However, we are talking about a college freshmen.

Exactly- It would have been better if he'd been more of an adult, as well as if the perps had been. We can't build a world around the fears and nightmares of children.

Cartoonist Signe Wilkinson decides to weigh in. Thoughts?

I think you're going to miss "Cathy".

We should all know the truth about the voyage to the moon