I've always viewed masculinity as
things he does, rather than a way
he looks. He's the provider, the driver,
He takes care of the lawn and cars.
He opens the door, takes my arm when we're walking
Things my father and grandfathers generation
Did I guess.
Laura
at October 29, 2010 2:17 PM
Or how about this guy? He is just too freakin' good to be true!?
"I've always viewed masculinity as
things he does, rather than a way
he looks. He's the provider, the driver,
He takes care of the lawn and cars.
He opens the door, takes my arm when we're walking
Things my father and grandfathers generation
Did I guess."
Laura, you're describing a slave and/or paid worker. How about what your husband does for himself instead of what he does for you? Masculinity is not about you.
Jay J. Hector
at October 29, 2010 2:31 PM
Masculinity is like porn: I know it when I see it.
MonicaP
at October 29, 2010 2:44 PM
I recently taught my 8th grade boys Sunday School class a lesson on "what girls want in a guy." It basically what a girl wants in a guy boils down to two words: calm confidence.
I tried to teach the boys is that all sorts of women like all sorts of guys (appearance, intelligence, emotional life, etc.) but we all like a guy, indeed a person, who is confident in themselves and their beliefs, and are not constantly seeking attention and approval from others. Confidence enough in themselves to be gracious and kind to others, not qualities teen boys always cultivate.
The "calm" part refers to the fact that many men/boys appear to be confident because they are aggressive, but that's just bullying and is actually a flag for lack of confidence. If you are truly confident you don't have to work on showing it. But many teen girls haven't figured that out yet (which is why they, and so many other immature women) like "bad boys."
Funny, the lesson to the girls on "what guys want in a girl" was much harder to write.
Calm confidence, that's masculinity to me. And a hairy chest.
Lesley
at October 29, 2010 2:46 PM
Laura, you're describing a slave and/or paid worker.
I love men. I think every woman should own one.
dee nile
at October 29, 2010 2:46 PM
I think Kipling nailed it:
If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you,
If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you,
But make allowance for their doubting too;
If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
Or being lied about, don't deal in lies,
Or being hated, don't give way to hating,
And yet don't look too good, nor talk too wise:
If you can dream - and not make dreams your master;
If you can think - and not make thoughts your aim;
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same;
If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
Or watch the things you gave your life to broken,
And stoop and build 'em up with wornout tools:
If you can make one heap of all your winnings
And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss,
And lose, and start again at your beginnings
And never breathe a word about your loss;
If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew
To serve your turn long after they are gone,
And so hold on when there is nothing in you
Except the Will which says to them: 'Hold on!'
If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,
Or walk with kings - nor lose the common touch,
If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you,
If all men count with you, but none too much;
If you can fill the unforgiving minute
With sixty seconds' worth of distance run -
Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,
And - which is more - you'll be a Man my son!
PS- So did Lebowski:
"Yeah, that and a pair of testicles."
Eric
at October 29, 2010 3:05 PM
Gregory Peck as Atticus Finch in the movie version of "To Kill A Mockingbird". He's everything a good man should be.
UW Girl
at October 29, 2010 3:06 PM
Yes! Atticus Finch is a great example.
Eric
at October 29, 2010 3:22 PM
Hmm, I'm not sure if this is exactly the question, but off the top of my head, I have my own checklist that I've collected over the years from my own perspective as a man, based on contemplation and experiences and pragmatic considerations, of what a man 'should be'. A real man:
- Can take care of himself financially and never leeches off anyone
- Can take care of his family financially
- Recognizes and protects his wife/children from risks and dangers at all reasonable cost
- Doesn't care to be 'trendy' - a real man doesn't follow trends, he marches to his own drum-beat
- Does all he can to make sure his children get a good education at the best schools he can get them into
- Uses reason as a primary guide, always
- Recognizes manipulation and cohersion, and makes measured reasoned decisions of his own behavior guided by his own reasoned thought processes
- Stands up for himself, and doesn't let people walk all over him
- Is not ashamed to strive to rise above the crapness that surrounds us in society
- Carries a gun, and knows how to use it, should he need to protect himself or his family (it should be noted I am somewhat stuck in a dangerous part of the world)
- Remains openly true and dedicated to rationality and truth no matter how unpopular or contrary to the opinions of those around him it might be
- Never acts ashamed to be a man, and recognizes the value and contribution of real men to society
- Has integrity and humility
Lobster
at October 29, 2010 4:06 PM
Hmmm...a lot of what I'm seeing attributed to masculinity are actually signs of adulthood.
I think it's also worth noting that, like femininity, masculinity is not always noble.
MonicaP
at October 29, 2010 4:08 PM
What would you say is masculinity as compared to femininity?
Not sure. This is an interesting question that I'll have to think on.
For now, I'll say it's self-awareness: awareness and acceptance of what makes men different from women, hormonally, biologically and psychologically.
For example, male aggression tends to be more direct and physical, while female aggression tends to be more subtle and psychological. It's easy to deal with the positive and negative ramifications of both when you know what the deal is.
LW: Gregory Peck as Atticus Finch in the movie version of "To Kill A Mockingbird". He's everything a good man should be.
This.
He was honest, courageous, unprejudiced, capable, wise and magnanimous.
Patrick
at October 29, 2010 4:42 PM
God I hate to be so shallow, but I have to admit it's looks first and confidence second. The looks don't have to be classically good looks, though. I don't find men on People Magazines' 50 sexiest people an accurate barometer, for example.
So it's just the kind of looks that appeal to me. Usually a man with some kind of unique feature like a gap between his two front teeth or a clear, steady gaze. A lack of nervousness, which is so totally unfair because I'm a nervous person myself.
Sometimes it's that moment when I see how and what animates a man. I'm not into science, or mechanics or cars, but when I see a man explaining something to do with it in a slyly passionate way--like not show offy--oh man...and if they've got the looks to go along with it? My knees go weak! It's that love of something outside themselves that makes a man (and I'm sure a woman too) so desirable.
I don't know if that explains masculinity though. I like it when they don't have too many female qualities--maybe not fair, but that's just how I see it.
ie
at October 29, 2010 7:14 PM
masculinity verses femininity?
From a physical standpoint, definitely to each their own. Some women find Marilyn Manson attractive, others find extreme body builders attractive. That's what makes the world go round...biologically speaking.
Personally, I'm moving towards brainy,
well groomed,and sort of fit...for masculine. Women, also smart, well groomed, and sort of fit.
They should be sure they exude their sexuality, but not overtly. That goes for any sexual preference.
Cindy
at October 29, 2010 7:14 PM
"How about what your husband does for himself instead of what he does for you? Masculinity is not about you."
Jay J. Hector so fucking wins this thread.
Spartee
at October 29, 2010 7:50 PM
Henry Rourke (Gary Cooper) in The Fountainhead. (And yes, Atticus Finch).
Feebie
at October 29, 2010 7:57 PM
Totally blew that one, should have been Howard Roark.
Crid [CridComment at gmail]
at October 29, 2010 8:12 PM
> Yes! Atticus Finch is a great example.
Oh, for fuck's sake... He was a HOLLYWOOD-processed-cheese-food trans-extrapolation of an already pathetic, sexless, humorless, fashionless, deus ex machina from an overrated novel.
I mean, shit fuck, peeps. What would you think if someone said, for feminity, some trollopy fuck-bunny from a forgotten comedy?!... Ahhh, it's coming to me... Lacey Underall! She's what femininity means to me. (She still looks pretty do-able. She's only a few years older.)
But masculinity? Shee-it. BOO! Boo fucking Radley, that's who, and fuck you very much. Boyfriend will FUCK YOU UP IN A KNIFEFIGHT, and don't you forget it. He has more masculinity than the human heart can handle in broad daylight. Boyfriend rules the night, and brings your naked pre-teen bacon all the way home.
Ya pansies.
Crid [CridComment at gmail]
at October 29, 2010 8:23 PM
Crid [CridComment at gmail]
at October 29, 2010 8:25 PM
What excites me in a woman:
She has to be intelligent enough to know she doesn't know it all. And can debate a point.
Willing to accept that a guy is a guy -- but not group him into every guy likes sports/partying/"X".
Looks help -- but taking care for her appearance definitely helps. It shows she has some self-respect. I'm saying not hair and makeup all the time -- but you don't live in sweats either, especially in public.
Willing to let the guy do things for her.
Accepting but not expecting "chivalrous" behavior.
Willing to accept my personal peccadilloes. Such as I'm not good in large crowds -- and avoid them.
Hmmm...a lot of what I'm seeing attributed to masculinity are actually signs of adulthood.
As MonicaP observed quite adroitly above, its being an adult, for both men and women.
Jim P.
at October 29, 2010 8:35 PM
Next question: What do you think it means to emasculate a man?
To call a terrific, smart, well groomed, sort of fit man you've known for years and finally spent the night with, to let him know you're covered in bedbug bites, when they thought the problem was solved long ago...dealbreaker, and emasculating.
cindy
at October 29, 2010 8:43 PM
Cin, I can't BELIEVE you'd bring pestilence into a man's home that way... A man who's known you so long and treated you so well.
Crid [CridComment at gmail]
at October 29, 2010 9:00 PM
Ha! Crid, if the wayward papa only knew that the old mum was finally trying to give it the old gung ho! 'Cause I have kids, I actually called the poor fella for advice, which he gave with great remorse. Shall we say...he disappeared for now.
cindy
at October 29, 2010 9:19 PM
Not really answering the question but is a funny. What it means to be a man
"Next question: What do you think it means to emasculate a man?"
Women who treat their boyfriends or husbands like their girlfriends. I see it at malls, when these women make their men hold their purses while they try on clothes. Just ridiculous. Or they tell them how to eat, or how to dress, or what to do (barf).
That and women that nag, nag, nag on their men in front of other people - especially calling everyones attention to their flaws. Makes me furious. I have a neighbor that does this. I have to literally get up and leave when she starts in on her husband.
Then, pretty much any sitcom where there is a Dad and he is now the butt of all the jokes between Mom, kids, friends, neighbors or ....whomever.
Lots changed, Luuuccy.
Feebie
at October 29, 2010 11:09 PM
Prager has said some stupid things about marriage but he's says some true-sounding ones, too. One of the latter was that the happiest men he knew did what their wives told them. Not holding their purses while they shopped... But a list of ten things to do over the weekend. If he does three of them, she's happy. If he does four, she's ecstatic. This sounds kinda true.
But marriage means different things to different people.
Crid [CridComment at gmail]
at October 29, 2010 11:21 PM
"Girls get horny but they are not consumed by it."
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2010/10/29/the_big_friday.html#comment-1773398">comment from Crid [CridComment at gmail]
Feebie's got it right. No purse holding. Don't nag. And recognize that chances are, he knows how to drive without you instructing him. The model I like to live by in the car: Say nothing unless he is going the wrong way down a one-way street and you are about to die in a head-on collision. Be sweet to a man and he'll do all sorts of things for you. Oh, and be appreciative of what he does do.
The one area where I bug him: His health. That's okay. I have a good excuse: "I love you and I want to keep you." No matter how good your excuse, however you have to be reasonable about what you ask, within the bounds of human nature.
Coconut example: Asked Gregg to get himself coconut oil before he left for Detroit (see blog item on that -- very good for you). He was busy, didn't get around to it, or didn't want to or care. (That's okay -- this is being human.) When he was in Detroit, asked him again to get it (plus love/keep you thing again). Looked up where he could get it, all the health food stores, etc., from downtown to Elmore's house. He didn't get it. When he came back, I reminded him that he needed to get it because I need to be a good girlfriend and keep him healthy. He got it the morning after he got back, and now he's almost through the jar.
Coconut oil? Please, no. Butter good, olive oil good, but that stuff is horrid. I'll risk not consuming that.
Christopher
at October 30, 2010 1:06 AM
I think this what it boils down to for both femininity, and masculinity... but since I'm not a girl, I'm guessing...
it's the ability to make a decision, and excecute.
I didn't mind holding the ex-s purse... but I held it like 3week dead roadkill. I can sew, and do it well, because there is no difference between sewing and connecting any other two materials with a third... it's like screwing together 2 2x4's bonus! with a MACHINE.
Change a [poopy diaper? No prob... I even know that you have to be careful with boys, because they have a weapon.
I'm a guy, I can do most anything... except give birth, natch.
I think that is masculinity
SwissArmyD
at October 30, 2010 1:22 AM
duh!!! John Wayne, and anyone but crid
ron
at October 30, 2010 5:59 AM
Voluntarily Holding my wife's purse while she tries on the lingerie I picked out at victoria's secret?
Speeds up the getting home to play in my book.
Hmmm...a lot of what I'm seeing attributed to masculinity are actually signs of adulthood.
I think it's also worth noting that, like femininity, masculinity is not always noble.
Posted by: MonicaP at October 29, 2010 4:08 PM
That reminds me of Jim Belushi's 2006 book: "Real Men Don't Apologize." (I didn't actually read it.)
I saw it him discussing it on the news, back then. He said in the interview that of course he believes in apologizing for really bad things - just not apologizing to the point of trivializing the words, since among other things, it means women won't respect you. Example: If your wife wants a very nice lifestyle for herself and the kids and her job can't pay for that, don't apologize when you spend a lot of time WORKING away from the home!
Then again, I couldn't help but notice that nearly a third of the reviews at Amazon were distinctly negative, so I wonder.
But, as MonicaP said, certain traits should really be considered the traits of real ADULTS, not just men or women.
In the 1970s humor collection, "Pulling Our Own
Strings," the editor Mary Kay Blakely has an essay on pages 147-148 about why women need to start a strike on saying 'I'm sorry.' It was
very eye-opening, and a one-sentence summary might be: "Learn to substitute the words 'that's a shame' at least four out of five times."
Brilliant.
Excerpt:
"At home, when your son moans that he's late for the school dance and you haven't washed his shirt yet, don't say 'I'm sorry.' Remind him that you possess perhaps the only equal-opportunity washing machine in the neighborhood - it works for anybody who pushes the buttons. At work when the chair of the meeting asks for someone to take the minutes and everybody turns to you, the only woman in the room, don't say 'I'm sorry.' Demonstrate your knowledge of biology and remind them that shorthand skills are not genetic in women. The next time your family itemizes the services not rendered, don't say 'I'm sorry.' Suggest that someone else will have to pick up the slack. When the Hare Krishna makes a plea for money at your door, don't say 'I'm sorry.' Mention that a few adjustments in his attire might result in landing a paid position."
(Of course, she wasn't talking about being perfectly polite - just about the need not to do more for others than you really should.)
I also remember the generally-polite book "Getting in Touch With Your Inner Bitch," where the catch-phrase is: "I don't think so." A phrase to be sweetly stated, of course, such as when your new handsome date suggests the movies, but you consider that a waste of time when you could do something more interactive, like shooting pool.
(Bernard Chapin loathes this book and said so on Amazon and in his own books, but I'd have to read GiTWYIB again to have any understanding of why - aside from the title, I can't remember anything that Miss Manners would dislike.)
lenona
at October 30, 2010 7:18 AM
A man holding a purse always evokes a vision of my dog being bathed: wet, helpless, and miserable.
Posted by: Amy Alkon at October 30, 2010 6:59 AM
May I ask why? After all, you can't be sure HE isn't there to shop too! That is, once she's done, they might be heading to the men's department. (BTW, I heard that "vanity sizing" is starting to happen in men's clothing as well! So a man can't just order something from a catalog and expect it to fit - always.)
lenona
at October 30, 2010 7:22 AM
See, I think a guy who is too worried about being emasculated is not very masculine. If holding a purse makes him feel "helpless and miserable" he's a bit of a wuss. Frankly, if my hands are full I would expect him to help. If his hands were full, I'd help him, too. If being in too close proximity to a feminine object makes him less of a man, he ain't much of a man to begin with.
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2010/10/29/the_big_friday.html#comment-1773660">comment from lenona
May I ask why? After all, you can't be sure HE isn't there to shop too! That is, once she's done, they might be heading to the men's department
It isn't about shopping -- it's about purse-holding.
I do have to say, my dog so screams about Gregg "THIS IS MY GIRLFRIEND'S DOG" that he looks like a sweet giant walking her, not a wussy. The bad thing about him taking care of her whenever I'm away and he's not: Women run up to him on the street and squeal, "That is the cutest dog I have ever seen!" Yeah? Well, she's not for sale, and neither is the man.
This morning I was thinking about Mockingbird, which I haven't read or seen since high school. It's a surprise that so many people here regard Finch as a masculine guy.... Or at least want to.
I think mostly you really just want to have sex with 1960-era Gregory Peck, which is understandable. Hollywood is all about pandering to people's base feelings. But try to understand how these collapse on top of each other. Mockingbird was an especially proud, nay, SMUG success for the movie business. Mockingbird had all of Inherit the Wind's historical and ethical confusion, but with a much more fuckable star than that ill-dentured gasbag Spencer Tracy.
When a murder on his children is attempted, what does Finch do? I remember the film dialog clearly, because it struck me the first time I heard it. He calls the police to demand that they be protected. "Sheriff Johnson, someone's been after my children!" (Look it up yourself.) He complains to the very constabulary force that's repeatedly proven itself disinterested in protecting the citizenry, even allowing one man to be repeatedly threatened and eventually murdered by a mob.
I'm very much reminded of that female army general who made two stars before collapsing in tears when a man made a pass. To admire Finch is to admire the boy on the schoolyard who runs to hide behind the teacher's skirt when a bully threatens him by the swingset.
The core of this Hollywood Lefty fantasy is truly religious in its extremity: They think the Universe is built on a loving but authoritarian substrate. So when things go wrong, what you really need to do is genuflect to the proper authority, and everything will be OK.
I'm not religious. I think masculinity means mostly that you have to be courageous on your own, and as a reflexive.
Crid [CridComment at gmail]
at October 30, 2010 9:59 AM
Reflex, not a reflexive. Listen, I'm late for work here
Crid [CridComment at gmail]
at October 30, 2010 10:01 AM
Crid [CridComment at gmail]
at October 30, 2010 10:39 AM
I think you are confusing the discipline and respect educated, professional men were taught post World war 2 with today's vision of "you mess with me and you sleeps with the fishes". Geez, even Sandra Bullock in The Blind Side made one helluva foolish scene where she stood up to a troop of gangstas like that.
Plus, if you had seen the film recently, you would realize that when the children came running in (the boy was mysteriously carried in by some unknown person) there was not yet a suspect for Atticus to go after. The smart thing to do was call out the sheriff, who was a friend and held Atticus in the highest regard.
And it's never even occurred to me to have sex with Gregory Peck!
PS- If you ever visit Spokane, there is a great, offbeat gift shop called Boo Radley's!
Eric
at October 30, 2010 12:22 PM
Nope, this film is really where Hollywood liberalism hit its stride. Soon thereafter it all turned to men with laser beams in outer space... But in that golden yet black-and-white hour, the image of masculinity as humorless, wordy, prissy, implicitly-and-explicitly dependent figure reached its broadest distribution. The word "suspect" itself is all about procedures and paperwork and reliance on technocracy.
Good thing there was that one real man out there that night, takin' care o' business.
Crid [cridcomment at gmail]
at October 30, 2010 1:13 PM
Crid [cridcomment at gmail]
at October 30, 2010 1:16 PM
Jesus Crid- I can't tell if you're really that cynical or playing Devil's Advocate. There are many America's, but I still live in one where I trust the police and our local sheriff more than the shut-in with a kitchen knife.
PS- Did you see Lacey Underall at 40? She looked better than when she made Caddyshack.
PPS- Getting ready for winter, today I had two truckloads of wood delivered. The man was a Vietnam Vet who was working home construction for I don't know how long, but now his job is going into the national forest to drop standing dead trees and deliver them for $125.00 a truckload. Figure gas, wear and tear on his truck, and all the other expenses, I can't really see how he is much better than breaking even. There are a lot of hard working poor in America (and I realize there are also a lot working the system), but it really amazes me how we as a society can be so interested in the Hilton\Kardashian types when so many real Americans are living third-world lives of desperation.
Eric
at October 30, 2010 3:50 PM
Eric,
Where in the Spokane area do you live? 9-mile, the Valley? I lived in Mead growing up, and depending on how far out he has to go, there is plenty of good timber out around Peone Prairie (if they haven't cut it all down to build houses - it's been a while since I've been there).
You do realize, don't you, that your last sentence actually supports what crid is saying? Liberals seem to be enraptured with celebrity, and the left does control the major networks. And T.V. is targeted to its audience (those who watch the most of it), which are women.
Steve
at October 30, 2010 6:17 PM
And where is Boo Radley's located?
Steve
at October 30, 2010 6:18 PM
The complaint isn't with women, it's with lefties!
At the center of their beliefs, they really think that the chief of police (or Obama or Gore) is their Dad. And when things go wrong, you can just count on Dad to make them better. And anyone who doesn't like Dad is just a big ol' meany!
Crid [cridcomment at gmail]
at October 30, 2010 6:26 PM
PS- They also think Dad is a schoolboy.
Crid [cridcomment at gmail]
at October 30, 2010 6:27 PM
he complaint isn't with women, it's with lefties!
But the majority of the base for lefties, is women crid.
And the left is all about statism. So of course they see those figures as dad. It makes them feel all warm and fuzzy to do so, up to the point that dad kicks in their front door.
Steve
at October 30, 2010 6:57 PM
Sorry, cut off the T at the beginning of your sentence.
Steve
at October 30, 2010 6:57 PM
Well, never let it happen again, Bub...!
Listen, feminine nature has problems, big ones. But it alone is not the source of misguided lefty-ism.
____________________
Besides Eric, I don't think Kardashian (or Finch) have anything to do with poor people. Certainly nothing to do with helping them. The number of Americans leading TRULY third-world lives is wonderfully small. That doesn't mean everyone's having a great ride, certainly not now. But thing that people ignore when they say things like that –Why can't the country that put a man on the moon take care of poverty– is that fixing these problems takes a lifetime of intimate effort in EACH case. And it doesn't always work, and it often violates other values, like liberty and independence.
People know this. They come home tired of thinking about it, so they watch Wheel of Fortune. They're not being cold-hearted.
Meanwhile, you admire cops more than most people, including those urban Americans who need their protection most. But for many others, this brilliant passage from Steyn comes to mind.
But Re:Lacey, yes. The first time I saw this recent photo, it felt like being a kid again, washing dishes in a downtown steakhouse, with a crush on the bosses' hot wife. You wouldn't even get eye contact... But even if you did, her eyes would only say "Why yes, I could fuck you in half... But even if you live long enough to buy your own beer, that will never, ever happen."
Crid [CridComment at gmail]
at October 30, 2010 8:09 PM
Agreed, there is more to it, but they play to the base, on a greater basis.
Eric,
Pay attention to that Steyn link that crid linked. It's right on the money.
When seconds count, the cops are minutes away.
"Why yes, I could fuck you in half... But even if you live long enough to buy your own beer, that will never, ever happen."
Best comment I've read in quite a while. Thanks for the laugh.
Steve
at October 30, 2010 9:11 PM
What is masculinity:
If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you;
If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you,
But make allowance for their doubting too;
If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
Or, being lied about, don't deal in lies,
Or, being hated, don't give way to hating,
And yet don't look too good, nor talk too wise;
If you can dream - and not make dreams your master;
If you can think - and not make thoughts your aim;
If you can meet with triumph and disaster
And treat those two imposters just the same;
If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
Or watch the things you gave your life to broken,
And stoop and build 'em up with wornout tools;
If you can make one heap of all your winnings
And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss,
And lose, and start again at your beginnings
And never breath a word about your loss;
If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew
To serve your turn long after they are gone,
And so hold on when there is nothing in you
Except the Will which says to them: "Hold on";
If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,
Or walk with kings - nor lose the common touch;
If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you;
If all men count with you, but none too much;
If you can fill the unforgiving minute
With sixty seconds' worth of distance run -
Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,
And - which is more - you'll be a Man my son!
Robert
at October 31, 2010 2:23 PM
As someone who lives within driving distance of Monroeville, Alabama - Crid, you are freaking me out. I have to rethink you and you've made me rethink a problem with Mockingbird that has bugged me for years. Thank you!
Atticus has for so long been my idea of a lovely man, but not a masculine man. He's soft. He righteous, he's gentle, he's kind, he's a wonderful father, a wonderful human being, but as a woman I couldn't really count on him to be my PHYSICAL protector. He was really conflicted in himself about his propensity for violence (reference his unexplained ability to shoot a gun so accurately yet his unwillingness to own one - hence the need to call the sheriff for protection). Peck so perfectly captured this.
I believe a woman's first primal need is for security, and part of what speaks masculinity for me is a man's ability to provide security in all areas. Atticus, great as he his, is critically lacking in one part of that.
Lesley
at October 31, 2010 5:47 PM
Hmm. Masculinity? How about an example - a real character, not one invented by Hollywood?
I met him, his wife and daughter at an event several years ago. Yep, no nonsense!
Radwaste
at October 31, 2010 6:29 PM
Crid! you want me to fix this, with this fella, don't you? Stigmas are entirely over rated...and yes, bedbugs are not aids.
Cindy
at October 31, 2010 7:20 PM
Maybe not... But if I got a phone call like that –from a milfy old friend with well-loved children– I'd crawl under a rock and die anyway, of shame.
Crid [CridComment at gmail]
at October 31, 2010 8:00 PM
Masculinity is taking care of your family even if it means doing things you would rather not do, so they have enough to eat, stay warm and have a chance to prosper. Basically sacrificing.
David M.
at November 1, 2010 5:35 AM
Interesting comments from a somewhat-famous online columnist:
Manhood is the willingness of a male to seize control of his destiny, face all adversity, take responsibility for his decisions, and fight for his rights — even when his adversary is female. It’s the antithesis of “yes, dear” or “she manipulated me” or “no real man lets a woman pay.”
Is manhood alive in America? Hell no. Instead, there’s an absence of manhood — a vacuum. Examples abound. On February 5, 2009, Barack Obama said this at the Democratic Caucus Issues Conference in Williamsburg, VA: “Michelle reminds me every day how imperfect I am.” How manly. Can you imagine Michelle making the reciprocal comment about him?........
.........In October 1914, (Woodrow) Wilson made a seminal address in Pittsburgh at a YMCA celebration in which he revealed his misandry: “I have often said that the use of a university is to make young gentlemen as unlike their fathers as possible.” This is Big Government attacking the family by marginalizing fathers. Yet, males reelected this tyrant to a second term (women couldn’t vote until 1920).
Weakness. Inaction. Apathy. Fear. One never links such terms to our Founding Fathers, great men who risked their lives to break the yoke of tyranny and establish a bastion of individual liberty. Today, because of the manhood vacuum, advocates and purveyors of Big Government are destroying that amazing legacy with relative ease.
Remember: manhood and socialism cannot coexist; they are mutually exclusive.
To end Big Government and restore individual liberty: 1) grow a pair, and take control of your destiny; 2) associate only with proponents of small government; 3) never elect socialists and progressives; 4) stand up to women in every aspect of your life.
(end)
Of course, he's a bit of a paranoid. He's also a divorced dad and an investment banker, so I'm guessing that, like rich celebrities, he has a hard time finding women who aren't golddiggers, since word always gets around when a man has money.
lenona
at November 1, 2010 10:20 AM
> Can you imagine Michelle making
> the reciprocal comment
Interesting point. Gratuitous, transparent, well-meaning overshows of humility towards husbands just do not happen in modern America... When they do, we assume the guy is a twitching idiot.
Crid [cridcomment at gmail]
at November 1, 2010 2:55 PM
Todd Palin. (not a joke)
Feebie at October 29, 2010 2:11 PM
I've always viewed masculinity as
things he does, rather than a way
he looks. He's the provider, the driver,
He takes care of the lawn and cars.
He opens the door, takes my arm when we're walking
Things my father and grandfathers generation
Did I guess.
Laura at October 29, 2010 2:17 PM
Or how about this guy? He is just too freakin' good to be true!?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mDpF7h1k8uE&feature=player_embedded#!
Feebie at October 29, 2010 2:24 PM
"I've always viewed masculinity as
things he does, rather than a way
he looks. He's the provider, the driver,
He takes care of the lawn and cars.
He opens the door, takes my arm when we're walking
Things my father and grandfathers generation
Did I guess."
Laura, you're describing a slave and/or paid worker. How about what your husband does for himself instead of what he does for you? Masculinity is not about you.
Jay J. Hector at October 29, 2010 2:31 PM
Masculinity is like porn: I know it when I see it.
MonicaP at October 29, 2010 2:44 PM
I recently taught my 8th grade boys Sunday School class a lesson on "what girls want in a guy." It basically what a girl wants in a guy boils down to two words: calm confidence.
I tried to teach the boys is that all sorts of women like all sorts of guys (appearance, intelligence, emotional life, etc.) but we all like a guy, indeed a person, who is confident in themselves and their beliefs, and are not constantly seeking attention and approval from others. Confidence enough in themselves to be gracious and kind to others, not qualities teen boys always cultivate.
The "calm" part refers to the fact that many men/boys appear to be confident because they are aggressive, but that's just bullying and is actually a flag for lack of confidence. If you are truly confident you don't have to work on showing it. But many teen girls haven't figured that out yet (which is why they, and so many other immature women) like "bad boys."
Funny, the lesson to the girls on "what guys want in a girl" was much harder to write.
Calm confidence, that's masculinity to me. And a hairy chest.
Lesley at October 29, 2010 2:46 PM
Laura, you're describing a slave and/or paid worker.
I love men. I think every woman should own one.
dee nile at October 29, 2010 2:46 PM
I think Kipling nailed it:
If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you,
If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you,
But make allowance for their doubting too;
If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
Or being lied about, don't deal in lies,
Or being hated, don't give way to hating,
And yet don't look too good, nor talk too wise:
If you can dream - and not make dreams your master;
If you can think - and not make thoughts your aim;
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same;
If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
Or watch the things you gave your life to broken,
And stoop and build 'em up with wornout tools:
If you can make one heap of all your winnings
And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss,
And lose, and start again at your beginnings
And never breathe a word about your loss;
If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew
To serve your turn long after they are gone,
And so hold on when there is nothing in you
Except the Will which says to them: 'Hold on!'
If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,
Or walk with kings - nor lose the common touch,
If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you,
If all men count with you, but none too much;
If you can fill the unforgiving minute
With sixty seconds' worth of distance run -
Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,
And - which is more - you'll be a Man my son!
PS- So did Lebowski:
"Yeah, that and a pair of testicles."
Eric at October 29, 2010 3:05 PM
Gregory Peck as Atticus Finch in the movie version of "To Kill A Mockingbird". He's everything a good man should be.
UW Girl at October 29, 2010 3:06 PM
Yes! Atticus Finch is a great example.
Eric at October 29, 2010 3:22 PM
Hmm, I'm not sure if this is exactly the question, but off the top of my head, I have my own checklist that I've collected over the years from my own perspective as a man, based on contemplation and experiences and pragmatic considerations, of what a man 'should be'. A real man:
- Can take care of himself financially and never leeches off anyone
- Can take care of his family financially
- Recognizes and protects his wife/children from risks and dangers at all reasonable cost
- Doesn't care to be 'trendy' - a real man doesn't follow trends, he marches to his own drum-beat
- Does all he can to make sure his children get a good education at the best schools he can get them into
- Uses reason as a primary guide, always
- Recognizes manipulation and cohersion, and makes measured reasoned decisions of his own behavior guided by his own reasoned thought processes
- Stands up for himself, and doesn't let people walk all over him
- Is not ashamed to strive to rise above the crapness that surrounds us in society
- Carries a gun, and knows how to use it, should he need to protect himself or his family (it should be noted I am somewhat stuck in a dangerous part of the world)
- Remains openly true and dedicated to rationality and truth no matter how unpopular or contrary to the opinions of those around him it might be
- Never acts ashamed to be a man, and recognizes the value and contribution of real men to society
- Has integrity and humility
Lobster at October 29, 2010 4:06 PM
Hmmm...a lot of what I'm seeing attributed to masculinity are actually signs of adulthood.
I think it's also worth noting that, like femininity, masculinity is not always noble.
MonicaP at October 29, 2010 4:08 PM
What would you say is masculinity as compared to femininity?
Amy Alkon at October 29, 2010 4:14 PM
Not sure. This is an interesting question that I'll have to think on.
For now, I'll say it's self-awareness: awareness and acceptance of what makes men different from women, hormonally, biologically and psychologically.
For example, male aggression tends to be more direct and physical, while female aggression tends to be more subtle and psychological. It's easy to deal with the positive and negative ramifications of both when you know what the deal is.
MonicaP at October 29, 2010 4:22 PM
This.
Cousin Dave at October 29, 2010 4:38 PM
LW: Gregory Peck as Atticus Finch in the movie version of "To Kill A Mockingbird". He's everything a good man should be.
This.
He was honest, courageous, unprejudiced, capable, wise and magnanimous.
Patrick at October 29, 2010 4:42 PM
God I hate to be so shallow, but I have to admit it's looks first and confidence second. The looks don't have to be classically good looks, though. I don't find men on People Magazines' 50 sexiest people an accurate barometer, for example.
So it's just the kind of looks that appeal to me. Usually a man with some kind of unique feature like a gap between his two front teeth or a clear, steady gaze. A lack of nervousness, which is so totally unfair because I'm a nervous person myself.
Sometimes it's that moment when I see how and what animates a man. I'm not into science, or mechanics or cars, but when I see a man explaining something to do with it in a slyly passionate way--like not show offy--oh man...and if they've got the looks to go along with it? My knees go weak! It's that love of something outside themselves that makes a man (and I'm sure a woman too) so desirable.
I don't know if that explains masculinity though. I like it when they don't have too many female qualities--maybe not fair, but that's just how I see it.
ie at October 29, 2010 7:14 PM
masculinity verses femininity?
From a physical standpoint, definitely to each their own. Some women find Marilyn Manson attractive, others find extreme body builders attractive. That's what makes the world go round...biologically speaking.
Personally, I'm moving towards brainy,
well groomed,and sort of fit...for masculine. Women, also smart, well groomed, and sort of fit.
They should be sure they exude their sexuality, but not overtly. That goes for any sexual preference.
Cindy at October 29, 2010 7:14 PM
"How about what your husband does for himself instead of what he does for you? Masculinity is not about you."
Jay J. Hector so fucking wins this thread.
Spartee at October 29, 2010 7:50 PM
Henry Rourke (Gary Cooper) in The Fountainhead. (And yes, Atticus Finch).
Feebie at October 29, 2010 7:57 PM
Totally blew that one, should have been Howard Roark.
Feebie at October 29, 2010 7:58 PM
It's this...
But who wants to know?
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at October 29, 2010 8:12 PM
> Yes! Atticus Finch is a great example.
Oh, for fuck's sake... He was a HOLLYWOOD-processed-cheese-food trans-extrapolation of an already pathetic, sexless, humorless, fashionless, deus ex machina from an overrated novel.
I mean, shit fuck, peeps. What would you think if someone said, for feminity, some trollopy fuck-bunny from a forgotten comedy?!... Ahhh, it's coming to me... Lacey Underall! She's what femininity means to me. (She still looks pretty do-able. She's only a few years older.)
But masculinity? Shee-it. BOO! Boo fucking Radley, that's who, and fuck you very much. Boyfriend will FUCK YOU UP IN A KNIFEFIGHT, and don't you forget it. He has more masculinity than the human heart can handle in broad daylight. Boyfriend rules the night, and brings your naked pre-teen bacon all the way home.
Ya pansies.
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at October 29, 2010 8:23 PM
Boo.
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at October 29, 2010 8:25 PM
What excites me in a woman:
She has to be intelligent enough to know she doesn't know it all. And can debate a point.
Willing to accept that a guy is a guy -- but not group him into every guy likes sports/partying/"X".
Looks help -- but taking care for her appearance definitely helps. It shows she has some self-respect. I'm saying not hair and makeup all the time -- but you don't live in sweats either, especially in public.
Willing to let the guy do things for her.
Accepting but not expecting "chivalrous" behavior.
Willing to accept my personal peccadilloes. Such as I'm not good in large crowds -- and avoid them.
Hmmm...a lot of what I'm seeing attributed to masculinity are actually signs of adulthood.
As MonicaP observed quite adroitly above, its being an adult, for both men and women.
Jim P. at October 29, 2010 8:35 PM
Next question: What do you think it means to emasculate a man?
Amy Alkon at October 29, 2010 8:36 PM
To call a terrific, smart, well groomed, sort of fit man you've known for years and finally spent the night with, to let him know you're covered in bedbug bites, when they thought the problem was solved long ago...dealbreaker, and emasculating.
cindy at October 29, 2010 8:43 PM
Cin, I can't BELIEVE you'd bring pestilence into a man's home that way... A man who's known you so long and treated you so well.
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at October 29, 2010 9:00 PM
Ha! Crid, if the wayward papa only knew that the old mum was finally trying to give it the old gung ho! 'Cause I have kids, I actually called the poor fella for advice, which he gave with great remorse. Shall we say...he disappeared for now.
cindy at October 29, 2010 9:19 PM
Not really answering the question but is a funny. What it means to be a man
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JvltzwkUEEA&fmt=34
John Paulson at October 29, 2010 9:29 PM
"Next question: What do you think it means to emasculate a man?"
Women who treat their boyfriends or husbands like their girlfriends. I see it at malls, when these women make their men hold their purses while they try on clothes. Just ridiculous. Or they tell them how to eat, or how to dress, or what to do (barf).
That and women that nag, nag, nag on their men in front of other people - especially calling everyones attention to their flaws. Makes me furious. I have a neighbor that does this. I have to literally get up and leave when she starts in on her husband.
Then, pretty much any sitcom where there is a Dad and he is now the butt of all the jokes between Mom, kids, friends, neighbors or ....whomever.
Lots changed, Luuuccy.
Feebie at October 29, 2010 11:09 PM
Prager has said some stupid things about marriage but he's says some true-sounding ones, too. One of the latter was that the happiest men he knew did what their wives told them. Not holding their purses while they shopped... But a list of ten things to do over the weekend. If he does three of them, she's happy. If he does four, she's ecstatic. This sounds kinda true.
But marriage means different things to different people.
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at October 29, 2010 11:21 PM
"Girls get horny but they are not consumed by it."
Great quote from my male friend.
Ppen at October 29, 2010 11:48 PM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2010/10/29/the_big_friday.html#comment-1773398">comment from Crid [CridComment at gmail]Feebie's got it right. No purse holding. Don't nag. And recognize that chances are, he knows how to drive without you instructing him. The model I like to live by in the car: Say nothing unless he is going the wrong way down a one-way street and you are about to die in a head-on collision. Be sweet to a man and he'll do all sorts of things for you. Oh, and be appreciative of what he does do.
The one area where I bug him: His health. That's okay. I have a good excuse: "I love you and I want to keep you." No matter how good your excuse, however you have to be reasonable about what you ask, within the bounds of human nature.
Coconut example: Asked Gregg to get himself coconut oil before he left for Detroit (see blog item on that -- very good for you). He was busy, didn't get around to it, or didn't want to or care. (That's okay -- this is being human.) When he was in Detroit, asked him again to get it (plus love/keep you thing again). Looked up where he could get it, all the health food stores, etc., from downtown to Elmore's house. He didn't get it. When he came back, I reminded him that he needed to get it because I need to be a good girlfriend and keep him healthy. He got it the morning after he got back, and now he's almost through the jar.
Amy Alkon at October 30, 2010 12:21 AM
Gary Cooper in High Noon?
Calm, strong, honorable.
Christopher at October 30, 2010 12:58 AM
Coconut oil? Please, no. Butter good, olive oil good, but that stuff is horrid. I'll risk not consuming that.
Christopher at October 30, 2010 1:06 AM
I think this what it boils down to for both femininity, and masculinity... but since I'm not a girl, I'm guessing...
it's the ability to make a decision, and excecute.
I didn't mind holding the ex-s purse... but I held it like 3week dead roadkill. I can sew, and do it well, because there is no difference between sewing and connecting any other two materials with a third... it's like screwing together 2 2x4's bonus! with a MACHINE.
Change a [poopy diaper? No prob... I even know that you have to be careful with boys, because they have a weapon.
I'm a guy, I can do most anything... except give birth, natch.
I think that is masculinity
SwissArmyD at October 30, 2010 1:22 AM
duh!!! John Wayne, and anyone but crid
ron at October 30, 2010 5:59 AM
Voluntarily Holding my wife's purse while she tries on the lingerie I picked out at victoria's secret?
Speeds up the getting home to play in my book.
Mb at October 30, 2010 6:06 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2010/10/29/the_big_friday.html#comment-1773598">comment from MbA man holding a purse always evokes a vision of my dog being bathed: wet, helpless, and miserable.
Amy Alkon at October 30, 2010 6:59 AM
Hmmm...a lot of what I'm seeing attributed to masculinity are actually signs of adulthood.
I think it's also worth noting that, like femininity, masculinity is not always noble.
Posted by: MonicaP at October 29, 2010 4:08 PM
That reminds me of Jim Belushi's 2006 book: "Real Men Don't Apologize." (I didn't actually read it.)
I saw it him discussing it on the news, back then. He said in the interview that of course he believes in apologizing for really bad things - just not apologizing to the point of trivializing the words, since among other things, it means women won't respect you. Example: If your wife wants a very nice lifestyle for herself and the kids and her job can't pay for that, don't apologize when you spend a lot of time WORKING away from the home!
Then again, I couldn't help but notice that nearly a third of the reviews at Amazon were distinctly negative, so I wonder.
But, as MonicaP said, certain traits should really be considered the traits of real ADULTS, not just men or women.
In the 1970s humor collection, "Pulling Our Own
Strings," the editor Mary Kay Blakely has an essay on pages 147-148 about why women need to start a strike on saying 'I'm sorry.' It was
very eye-opening, and a one-sentence summary might be: "Learn to substitute the words 'that's a shame' at least four out of five times."
Brilliant.
Excerpt:
"At home, when your son moans that he's late for the school dance and you haven't washed his shirt yet, don't say 'I'm sorry.' Remind him that you possess perhaps the only equal-opportunity washing machine in the neighborhood - it works for anybody who pushes the buttons. At work when the chair of the meeting asks for someone to take the minutes and everybody turns to you, the only woman in the room, don't say 'I'm sorry.' Demonstrate your knowledge of biology and remind them that shorthand skills are not genetic in women. The next time your family itemizes the services not rendered, don't say 'I'm sorry.' Suggest that someone else will have to pick up the slack. When the Hare Krishna makes a plea for money at your door, don't say 'I'm sorry.' Mention that a few adjustments in his attire might result in landing a paid position."
(Of course, she wasn't talking about being perfectly polite - just about the need not to do more for others than you really should.)
I also remember the generally-polite book "Getting in Touch With Your Inner Bitch," where the catch-phrase is: "I don't think so." A phrase to be sweetly stated, of course, such as when your new handsome date suggests the movies, but you consider that a waste of time when you could do something more interactive, like shooting pool.
(Bernard Chapin loathes this book and said so on Amazon and in his own books, but I'd have to read GiTWYIB again to have any understanding of why - aside from the title, I can't remember anything that Miss Manners would dislike.)
lenona at October 30, 2010 7:18 AM
A man holding a purse always evokes a vision of my dog being bathed: wet, helpless, and miserable.
Posted by: Amy Alkon at October 30, 2010 6:59 AM
May I ask why? After all, you can't be sure HE isn't there to shop too! That is, once she's done, they might be heading to the men's department. (BTW, I heard that "vanity sizing" is starting to happen in men's clothing as well! So a man can't just order something from a catalog and expect it to fit - always.)
lenona at October 30, 2010 7:22 AM
See, I think a guy who is too worried about being emasculated is not very masculine. If holding a purse makes him feel "helpless and miserable" he's a bit of a wuss. Frankly, if my hands are full I would expect him to help. If his hands were full, I'd help him, too. If being in too close proximity to a feminine object makes him less of a man, he ain't much of a man to begin with.
NicoleK at October 30, 2010 8:29 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2010/10/29/the_big_friday.html#comment-1773660">comment from lenonaMay I ask why? After all, you can't be sure HE isn't there to shop too! That is, once she's done, they might be heading to the men's department
It isn't about shopping -- it's about purse-holding.
I do have to say, my dog so screams about Gregg "THIS IS MY GIRLFRIEND'S DOG" that he looks like a sweet giant walking her, not a wussy. The bad thing about him taking care of her whenever I'm away and he's not: Women run up to him on the street and squeal, "That is the cutest dog I have ever seen!" Yeah? Well, she's not for sale, and neither is the man.
Amy Alkon at October 30, 2010 8:32 AM
Prev link at the top of this page ain't workin'
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at October 30, 2010 9:15 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2010/10/29/the_big_friday.html#comment-1773683">comment from Crid [CridComment at gmail]Prev link at the top of this page ain't workin'
Thanks -- I think it was a temporary snafu. I put something on the wrong date and moved it, and you probably clicked just as I was moving it.
Amy Alkon at October 30, 2010 9:23 AM
This morning I was thinking about Mockingbird, which I haven't read or seen since high school. It's a surprise that so many people here regard Finch as a masculine guy.... Or at least want to.
I think mostly you really just want to have sex with 1960-era Gregory Peck, which is understandable. Hollywood is all about pandering to people's base feelings. But try to understand how these collapse on top of each other. Mockingbird was an especially proud, nay, SMUG success for the movie business. Mockingbird had all of Inherit the Wind's historical and ethical confusion, but with a much more fuckable star than that ill-dentured gasbag Spencer Tracy.
When a murder on his children is attempted, what does Finch do? I remember the film dialog clearly, because it struck me the first time I heard it. He calls the police to demand that they be protected. "Sheriff Johnson, someone's been after my children!" (Look it up yourself.) He complains to the very constabulary force that's repeatedly proven itself disinterested in protecting the citizenry, even allowing one man to be repeatedly threatened and eventually murdered by a mob.
I'm very much reminded of that female army general who made two stars before collapsing in tears when a man made a pass. To admire Finch is to admire the boy on the schoolyard who runs to hide behind the teacher's skirt when a bully threatens him by the swingset.
The core of this Hollywood Lefty fantasy is truly religious in its extremity: They think the Universe is built on a loving but authoritarian substrate. So when things go wrong, what you really need to do is genuflect to the proper authority, and everything will be OK.
I'm not religious. I think masculinity means mostly that you have to be courageous on your own, and as a reflexive.
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at October 30, 2010 9:59 AM
Reflex, not a reflexive. Listen, I'm late for work here
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at October 30, 2010 10:01 AM
Ah, here
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at October 30, 2010 10:39 AM
I think you are confusing the discipline and respect educated, professional men were taught post World war 2 with today's vision of "you mess with me and you sleeps with the fishes". Geez, even Sandra Bullock in The Blind Side made one helluva foolish scene where she stood up to a troop of gangstas like that.
Plus, if you had seen the film recently, you would realize that when the children came running in (the boy was mysteriously carried in by some unknown person) there was not yet a suspect for Atticus to go after. The smart thing to do was call out the sheriff, who was a friend and held Atticus in the highest regard.
And it's never even occurred to me to have sex with Gregory Peck!
PS- If you ever visit Spokane, there is a great, offbeat gift shop called Boo Radley's!
Eric at October 30, 2010 12:22 PM
Nope, this film is really where Hollywood liberalism hit its stride. Soon thereafter it all turned to men with laser beams in outer space... But in that golden yet black-and-white hour, the image of masculinity as humorless, wordy, prissy, implicitly-and-explicitly dependent figure reached its broadest distribution. The word "suspect" itself is all about procedures and paperwork and reliance on technocracy.
Good thing there was that one real man out there that night, takin' care o' business.
Crid [cridcomment at gmail] at October 30, 2010 1:13 PM
Cindy see this.
Crid [cridcomment at gmail] at October 30, 2010 1:16 PM
Jesus Crid- I can't tell if you're really that cynical or playing Devil's Advocate. There are many America's, but I still live in one where I trust the police and our local sheriff more than the shut-in with a kitchen knife.
PS- Did you see Lacey Underall at 40? She looked better than when she made Caddyshack.
PPS- Getting ready for winter, today I had two truckloads of wood delivered. The man was a Vietnam Vet who was working home construction for I don't know how long, but now his job is going into the national forest to drop standing dead trees and deliver them for $125.00 a truckload. Figure gas, wear and tear on his truck, and all the other expenses, I can't really see how he is much better than breaking even. There are a lot of hard working poor in America (and I realize there are also a lot working the system), but it really amazes me how we as a society can be so interested in the Hilton\Kardashian types when so many real Americans are living third-world lives of desperation.
Eric at October 30, 2010 3:50 PM
Eric,
Where in the Spokane area do you live? 9-mile, the Valley? I lived in Mead growing up, and depending on how far out he has to go, there is plenty of good timber out around Peone Prairie (if they haven't cut it all down to build houses - it's been a while since I've been there).
You do realize, don't you, that your last sentence actually supports what crid is saying? Liberals seem to be enraptured with celebrity, and the left does control the major networks. And T.V. is targeted to its audience (those who watch the most of it), which are women.
Steve at October 30, 2010 6:17 PM
And where is Boo Radley's located?
Steve at October 30, 2010 6:18 PM
The complaint isn't with women, it's with lefties!
At the center of their beliefs, they really think that the chief of police (or Obama or Gore) is their Dad. And when things go wrong, you can just count on Dad to make them better. And anyone who doesn't like Dad is just a big ol' meany!
Crid [cridcomment at gmail] at October 30, 2010 6:26 PM
PS- They also think Dad is a schoolboy.
Crid [cridcomment at gmail] at October 30, 2010 6:27 PM
he complaint isn't with women, it's with lefties!
But the majority of the base for lefties, is women crid.
And the left is all about statism. So of course they see those figures as dad. It makes them feel all warm and fuzzy to do so, up to the point that dad kicks in their front door.
Steve at October 30, 2010 6:57 PM
Sorry, cut off the T at the beginning of your sentence.
Steve at October 30, 2010 6:57 PM
Well, never let it happen again, Bub...!
Listen, feminine nature has problems, big ones. But it alone is not the source of misguided lefty-ism.
____________________
Besides Eric, I don't think Kardashian (or Finch) have anything to do with poor people. Certainly nothing to do with helping them. The number of Americans leading TRULY third-world lives is wonderfully small. That doesn't mean everyone's having a great ride, certainly not now. But thing that people ignore when they say things like that –Why can't the country that put a man on the moon take care of poverty– is that fixing these problems takes a lifetime of intimate effort in EACH case. And it doesn't always work, and it often violates other values, like liberty and independence.
People know this. They come home tired of thinking about it, so they watch Wheel of Fortune. They're not being cold-hearted.
Meanwhile, you admire cops more than most people, including those urban Americans who need their protection most. But for many others, this brilliant passage from Steyn comes to mind.
But Re:Lacey, yes. The first time I saw this recent photo, it felt like being a kid again, washing dishes in a downtown steakhouse, with a crush on the bosses' hot wife. You wouldn't even get eye contact... But even if you did, her eyes would only say "Why yes, I could fuck you in half... But even if you live long enough to buy your own beer, that will never, ever happen."
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at October 30, 2010 8:09 PM
Agreed, there is more to it, but they play to the base, on a greater basis.
Eric,
Pay attention to that Steyn link that crid linked. It's right on the money.
When seconds count, the cops are minutes away.
"Why yes, I could fuck you in half... But even if you live long enough to buy your own beer, that will never, ever happen."
Best comment I've read in quite a while. Thanks for the laugh.
Steve at October 30, 2010 9:11 PM
What is masculinity:
If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you;
If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you,
But make allowance for their doubting too;
If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
Or, being lied about, don't deal in lies,
Or, being hated, don't give way to hating,
And yet don't look too good, nor talk too wise;
If you can dream - and not make dreams your master;
If you can think - and not make thoughts your aim;
If you can meet with triumph and disaster
And treat those two imposters just the same;
If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
Or watch the things you gave your life to broken,
And stoop and build 'em up with wornout tools;
If you can make one heap of all your winnings
And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss,
And lose, and start again at your beginnings
And never breath a word about your loss;
If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew
To serve your turn long after they are gone,
And so hold on when there is nothing in you
Except the Will which says to them: "Hold on";
If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,
Or walk with kings - nor lose the common touch;
If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you;
If all men count with you, but none too much;
If you can fill the unforgiving minute
With sixty seconds' worth of distance run -
Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,
And - which is more - you'll be a Man my son!
Robert at October 31, 2010 2:23 PM
As someone who lives within driving distance of Monroeville, Alabama - Crid, you are freaking me out. I have to rethink you and you've made me rethink a problem with Mockingbird that has bugged me for years. Thank you!
Atticus has for so long been my idea of a lovely man, but not a masculine man. He's soft. He righteous, he's gentle, he's kind, he's a wonderful father, a wonderful human being, but as a woman I couldn't really count on him to be my PHYSICAL protector. He was really conflicted in himself about his propensity for violence (reference his unexplained ability to shoot a gun so accurately yet his unwillingness to own one - hence the need to call the sheriff for protection). Peck so perfectly captured this.
I believe a woman's first primal need is for security, and part of what speaks masculinity for me is a man's ability to provide security in all areas. Atticus, great as he his, is critically lacking in one part of that.
Lesley at October 31, 2010 5:47 PM
Hmm. Masculinity? How about an example - a real character, not one invented by Hollywood?
I met him, his wife and daughter at an event several years ago. Yep, no nonsense!
Radwaste at October 31, 2010 6:29 PM
Crid! you want me to fix this, with this fella, don't you? Stigmas are entirely over rated...and yes, bedbugs are not aids.
Cindy at October 31, 2010 7:20 PM
Maybe not... But if I got a phone call like that –from a milfy old friend with well-loved children– I'd crawl under a rock and die anyway, of shame.
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at October 31, 2010 8:00 PM
Masculinity is taking care of your family even if it means doing things you would rather not do, so they have enough to eat, stay warm and have a chance to prosper. Basically sacrificing.
David M. at November 1, 2010 5:35 AM
Interesting comments from a somewhat-famous online columnist:
Manhood is the willingness of a male to seize control of his destiny, face all adversity, take responsibility for his decisions, and fight for his rights — even when his adversary is female. It’s the antithesis of “yes, dear” or “she manipulated me” or “no real man lets a woman pay.”
Is manhood alive in America? Hell no. Instead, there’s an absence of manhood — a vacuum. Examples abound. On February 5, 2009, Barack Obama said this at the Democratic Caucus Issues Conference in Williamsburg, VA: “Michelle reminds me every day how imperfect I am.” How manly. Can you imagine Michelle making the reciprocal comment about him?........
.........In October 1914, (Woodrow) Wilson made a seminal address in Pittsburgh at a YMCA celebration in which he revealed his misandry: “I have often said that the use of a university is to make young gentlemen as unlike their fathers as possible.” This is Big Government attacking the family by marginalizing fathers. Yet, males reelected this tyrant to a second term (women couldn’t vote until 1920).
Weakness. Inaction. Apathy. Fear. One never links such terms to our Founding Fathers, great men who risked their lives to break the yoke of tyranny and establish a bastion of individual liberty. Today, because of the manhood vacuum, advocates and purveyors of Big Government are destroying that amazing legacy with relative ease.
Remember: manhood and socialism cannot coexist; they are mutually exclusive.
To end Big Government and restore individual liberty: 1) grow a pair, and take control of your destiny; 2) associate only with proponents of small government; 3) never elect socialists and progressives; 4) stand up to women in every aspect of your life.
(end)
Of course, he's a bit of a paranoid. He's also a divorced dad and an investment banker, so I'm guessing that, like rich celebrities, he has a hard time finding women who aren't golddiggers, since word always gets around when a man has money.
lenona at November 1, 2010 10:20 AM
> Can you imagine Michelle making
> the reciprocal comment
Interesting point. Gratuitous, transparent, well-meaning overshows of humility towards husbands just do not happen in modern America... When they do, we assume the guy is a twitching idiot.
Crid [cridcomment at gmail] at November 1, 2010 2:55 PM
Leonidas at Thermopylae.
Robert at November 1, 2010 7:27 PM
Leave a comment