What reason Saw At The Rally To Restore Sanity
There seemed to be quite a few "Nazis!" signs. Okay, you can dislike the hell out of Glenn Beck, but I have yet to hear any reports of him sticking anybody in an oven. You?
What reason Saw At The Rally To Restore Sanity
There seemed to be quite a few "Nazis!" signs. Okay, you can dislike the hell out of Glenn Beck, but I have yet to hear any reports of him sticking anybody in an oven. You?
I probably missed some, but I only saw three Nazi signs.
1) Hitler (pic of Hitler) turn it around Marx (picture of Groucho). I think that was a parody sign.
2) 1:49 Sign suggesting the only person who should be compared to Nazis are ... Nazis. I don't think that counts as a Glenn Beck is a Nazi sign, however I concede that when that sign holder was asked "who is the worse offender in the Nazi ... comparison parade" the sign holder said Glenn Beck. That's not calling Glenn a Nazi, that says he calls other people Nazis.
3) At 3:39, a sign holder (but not holding a Nazi sign) is asked and says that Bush should have gotten a Hitler sign. So bingo, but still not a Nazi sign, just a Nazi statement.
4) At 4:31 there is a sign saying, I hate Illinois Nazis. I didn't understand that at all. I am probably missing some joke. But it doesn't seem to be about Glenn Beck, but since I didn't understand it, I'm going to call that one a Glenn Beck is a Nazi sign.
So in the video, I saw three Nazi signs, only one of which called Glenn Beck a Nazi.
Admittedly I probably missed the other Nazi signs (I couldn't find the man in the coffee beans optical illusion earlier today, and when that is pointed out, it's amazing, google it.)
Regardless Amy, here is Lewis Black showing Glenn Beck and how he turns around and calls out Nazi -- well always.
Back in Black - Glenn Beck's Nazi Tourette's
Glenn Beck plays "Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon," except there's just one degree and Kevin Bacon is Hitler.
jerry at October 31, 2010 2:20 AM
Illinois Nazis is a reference to a scene in the Blues Brothers link here
NorthGoingZax at October 31, 2010 4:55 AM
If you saw "quite a few" Nazi signs, Amy, get thee to your optometrist.
The point of the restore sanity march wasn't just to parody the ridiculous Tea Party rallies, which is a legit purpose by itself. It was to point out that the discourse has become over-the-top. Tea Partiers seem to be fond of carrying signs that depict Obama with a Hitler moustache, carrying swastikas, and similar outrageous comparisons to Naziism.
It's absolutely insane that dissent is treated with the most out-of-proportion and unfair accusations. The rally to restore sanity is basically a "let's keep it in perspective, folks" rally.
This site shows where the signs were submitted and voted upon.
(My own sign wasn't a big hit, apparently.)
Patrick at October 31, 2010 5:49 AM
Just an addendum. There were Nazi symbols at the rally. It's just that the Reason site didn't do a good job of showing them. The Hitler moustaches, for instance, were used with the intent of satirizing the Scumbaggers...uh, I mean, Teabaggers vile habit of putting Hitler moustaches on pictures of Obama, toting the swastikas, etc., in their over-the-top efforts to demonize the conservatives.
Jon Stewart explains the purpose of this here. But of course, subtlety and nuance will be lost (or so they will feign) on the Republicans...uh, I mean Scumbaggers -- no, wait Teabaggers...who will shriek to the heavens their outrage.
"But, but, but...the Teabaggers are only defined by their opposition to overspending!"
Amy, if you can be persuaded to swallow that claptrap, believing in God should be relatively easy.
Patrick at October 31, 2010 7:15 AM
Blah. "Demonize the conservatives?" No, they ARE conservatives. At least that's what they think they are.
I meant to say "demonize the opposition."
Patrick at October 31, 2010 7:19 AM
Um. You are aware that this was a gathering on the mall called by two comedians who have a show on Comedy Central right?
I stood next to a sign that read "Sodomites for Sanity" .
I will tell you that it was the most jovial, laugh filled gathering I've ever seen here in my hometown with people from all walks of life hanging out together on a beautiful day.
Washington can really suck when angry bitter people from either side come here and override our streets, screaming and yelling at each other without listening to a word.
This was about saying "we may not believe in the same things, but your opinion is as valid as mine"
And that is about as courteous as you can get.
duff at October 31, 2010 7:48 AM
Patrick, I hope you're enjoying your name-calling, because you've insulted pretty much everyone else who posts here over the past week or so. You've lost me. I no longer care what you have to say.
Cousin Dave at October 31, 2010 8:09 AM
Cousin Dave, if you're a Tea Partier, then all I can say is, backatcha.
I have no respect, none, for a partisan who will not police his own.
Patrick at October 31, 2010 8:21 AM
I have no respect, none, for a partisan who will not police his own.
So where were you during the heyday of Bushitler?
I R A Darth Aggie at October 31, 2010 8:27 AM
You assume I'm a liberal. I'm not. I did not vote for Obama, nor will I vote for Obama (barring a major transformation of philosophy, or possibly the conservatives doing something really, really, really stupid, like run Christine O'Donnell, in which case I'll vote for a third party, as I often do). I also believe that liberals sold out one of their most sacred tenants to vote for Obama, namely their supposedly staunch opposition to racism. Yet, somehow a biracial person who is the dutiful congregant of Jeremiah Wright for 20 years doesn't qualify as a racist.
I beg to differ...
But to answer your question, I said and always will believe that casual comparisons to Hitler is over-the-top, repulsive and tasteless. Not to mention disrespectful to those who suffered under Nazi brutality and their families.
And for those who think that the Tea Partiers are just squeaky clean and wholesome, have a gander.
So, if any Tea Partiers care to be gasping in horror at the very image of Hitler moustaches on your icons, such as St. Sarah of Wasilla and bipolar...uh, I mean bipartisan...pundit Glenn Beck, I have three words for you: POLICE YOUR OWN!
Patrick at October 31, 2010 8:40 AM
The point of the rally was to stop the demonizing people who have a different opinion than yours. It should be possible to discuss issues without name calling or personal attack. Patrick, by calling the Tea Partiers names, you're guilty of exactly the same behavior. Not everyone in the world is going to agree on everything and our political system is a mess. So instead of personal attacks and name calling, why not work together to find solutions. Otherwise, it is just going to be politics as usual.
Kristen at October 31, 2010 9:51 AM
Thank you, NorthGoingZax, sheesh, I didn't even google "Illinois Nazis" which would have explained the whole thing just like that. Shame on me.
jerry at October 31, 2010 10:31 AM
Kristen, the Tea Partiers forfeited whatever respect they were entitled to practically the minute they appeared on the political landscape.
Likening their political opponents to Hitler is beyond the pale. Your criticism is impossible to take seriously. You can't devolve into inconsolable sobbing over calling the Tea Partiers names while they have basically dismissed what is regarded among the most heinous of atrocities, using it as a punchline to put down the current administration. Are you fucking serious?
"Tee-hee-hee! Let's compare Obama to Hitler! Aren't we just the cleverest little things?"
No, that is sick and disgusting.
You would castigate me for calling Tea Partiers names while they themselves couldn't have possibly come up with an insult more offensive than likening someone to Hitler. Not if they tried! Not only is this the grossest type of insult to current administration, but it's disrespectful and insulting to those who suffered and perished under the Nazis.
Where do you get off chiding someone for calling the Tea Partiers names? It's like wagging a scolding finger at a child who talks back to his parents when you're roommate is Lizzie Borden!
Speaking of name-calling, how about we call the Tea Partiers what they truly are? Repackaged Republicans. That is all they are, that is all they ever have been, and that is all they ever will be.
Patrick at October 31, 2010 11:14 AM
Patrick, you are missing the whole point of the rally then if you insist on continued name calling. They called names first? Boo hoo and boo hoo! So call them names back. That solves so much. Pick up a rock, they pick up a stick, etc. It escalates to such a point that nobody can be taken seriously and the issues get lost in all of the noise back and forth. I'm not excusing the behavior of anyone. What I'm saying is let's stop the bullshit and roll up our sleeves and figure out the best way to fix the problems facing this country. Calling someone a scumbag is not going to do that and it doesn't matter if they started it.
Kristen at October 31, 2010 12:30 PM
I agree with you that comparisons of politicians with Hitler are over the top...whoever does them.
But, again Patrick, you are reserving your ire for right-wingers despite your avowals of being independent.
I don't remember your vehement objections being voiced in response to lefties protesting with "Bush/Hitler" signs or Keith Olbermann comparing Bush with Hitler (you don't seem to object to much that Olbermann says).
[Some links on this site to more Bush/Hitler signage: http://www.ringospictures.com/index.php?page=20090816]
And you seem to be defending lefties portraying Palin and Beck et al as Hitler because "the Tea Party did it first."
Either you object to comparisons with Hitler or you don't. And you don't seem to unless it's directed at left-wing political figures.
Conan the Grammarian at October 31, 2010 1:10 PM
Conan: I don't remember your vehement objections being voiced in response to lefties protesting with "Bush/Hitler" signs or Keith Olbermann comparing Bush with Hitler (you don't seem to object to much that Olbermann says).
I don't listen to Olbermann. I find him rather stodgy and somewhat boring. I can only object to what he says if it's brought to my attention. I have no reason to doubt what you say is true, although this is the first I've heard of it. If he likened Bush to Hitler, then he's a jackass. And it is disrespectful to real victims of Nazism and their relatives. And any decent person who knows enough about the horrors of the Holocaust to avoid making casual references to it.
Conan: And you seem to be defending lefties portraying Palin and Beck et al as Hitler because "the Tea Party did it first."
Perhaps you should remind yourself of the thread's topic as Amy proposed. You should be pointing out to her, as I have, that her ire is reserved for the left wing who do this sort of thing, as if this kind of symbolism is the first she's heard of it.
The Tea Party has been doing this since their inception, as I have already shown.
Also, I have addressed the left wing and their comparison of Bush to Hitler. Scroll up, please, and read IRA Darth Aggie's question to me, and my response.
Finally, and most importantly, you have missed the point of the Restore Sanity rally. Many of the signs used at the rally were parodies of the signs used as previous rallys and protests. One sign, for instance, said "God Hates Bags." Would this, by any chance, be satire? Every chance.
The sign that showed the Hitler moustaches on Boehner, Cantor, Beck and Palin was captioned, "Afraid yet?"
It's lampooning the previous use of Nazi symbolism at these rallies. "Look! We're putting Hitler moustaches on right wing icons! Doesn't that make you afraid of them?"
No offense, but I think you (and Amy) have missed the point of this rally completely. If you care to read this article on Politico, and watch the video, Sassy Signs for Sanity, I think you might see the point.
Patrick at October 31, 2010 2:02 PM
aaaah! Wish I still lived in DC. I wanted to go to this! Austin had a satellite rally. It was LAME. It got hijacked by a bunch of anti death penalty protesters. So, a rally that was intended parody rallies became a rally.
sofar at October 31, 2010 2:17 PM
I thought it was rather amusing when I saw Cat Stevens er excuse me Yousef Islam show up on stage and call out "Peace!".
The whole thing came across as lame to me.
Sio at October 31, 2010 2:47 PM
Patrick has, perhaps inadvertently, provide a perfect example of why more Republicans don't get behind gay issues. Any GOP'er who backs gay marriage risks losing social conservatives, and the perception, as Patrick has demonstrated, is that gays will vote Democrat regardless. So there's no upside.
Cousin Dave at October 31, 2010 3:31 PM
I see Cousin Dave, contrary to his words, seems to care very much about what I say...if for no other reason than to misrepresent it. Hmmm...Crid has the same problem. He also claims not to care what I say. But yet he does, for the exact same reason.
Cousin Dave is indulging in the fallacy of bifurcation, first of all, also known as the Black and White Fallacy: only two alternatives exist. Republicans can either be for gay marriage or against it, and in C.D.'s world no other option could possibly exist.
In the real world, there's another option. Leave it to the courts and the states to resolve this issue. In effect, stay neutral. This is what Bush promised he would do; one of many, many lies, as he quickly forgot his stance on the issue before his first term was even over, threatening gays with amending the Constitution.
I could easily persuaded to vote for a candidate who decided to simply stay out of the issue. The courts are ruling in our favor and eventually, it will come to pass. If candidates are pledging to be against it, that makes it harder for me. But not impossible. There are more important issues to me than gay rights. As long as the courts will have their say, gay rights will happen.
Also, I don't vote Democrat necessarily. I didn't last presidential election because Obama disgusts me, and I voted for Crist in our last gubernatorial election. I didn't vote for Gore in his presidential campaign against Bush.
But regarding the ignorant idea that gays vote Democrat, three words: Log Cabin Republicans.
Patrick at October 31, 2010 4:53 PM
Basically, Patrick has conveniently insulated himself from any criticism by claiming no allegiances.
Of course, he's also not paying attention.
A fair amount (if not all) of the so-called "nazi" symbology at Tea Party rallies have been mobys. People who went there with the explicit intent of discrediting the group.
See, pop artist Moby advocated doing that in 2008 - going to message boards, fora, etc. and making outrageous statements under the guise of being conservative/republican with the purpose of discrediting the entire conservative movement.
It failed. So did their attempts to discredit the Tea Party movement.
Patrick is in for a rude shock come November 2. The Progressive agenda is dead. 2012 is when we put the stake through its heart and burn the carcass upon the pyre of history.
I surely hope that 2012 is the year we can finally say that Karl Marx is dead forever.
brian at October 31, 2010 7:58 PM
Patrick, I did read it. I took my quote from your answer to IRA Death Aggie.
And I still maintain that you give lip service to being non-partisan, but spend the majority of your ire castigating conservatives and Republicans for their over-the-top behavior while letting liberals and progressives off the hook for equally egregious behavior.
You say you were against "Bush = Hitler" comparisons back in the day, but I don't remember you burning up the threads with posts objecting to those comparisons the way you do to "Obama = Hitler" comparison.
Perhaps there's a little classism in you; as a long-time college student looking down on those uneducated masses with their provincial outlooks who populate Tea Party rallies while believing the progressive viewpoint represents an educated and enlightened outlook.
And it's a little too convenient that you rarely know about Olbermann's or Matthews' over-the-top remarks but are Johnny-on-the-spot hearing about and objecting to Beck's, Limbaugh's, O'Reilly's et al. Perhaps you need to broaden your news sources.
Although, to be fair, I'll admit I don't listen to O'Reilly, Beck, Limbaugh, or even Olbermann or Matthews; so when they cross the line I usually find out about it after-the-fact.
Conan the Grammarian at October 31, 2010 11:06 PM
brian: A fair amount (if not all) of the so-called "nazi" symbology at Tea Party rallies have been mobys. People who went there with the explicit intent of discrediting the group.
How convenient. Someone's using Nazi symbology at Tea Party rallies. But they're not real Tea Partiers, just plants to discredit the Tea Partiers. And of course, you have evidence for this. You have public statements from the Tea Partiers, who, at the time, were denouncing this use of Nazi symbols and swiftly insisting that this was not of their own.
Well, no, you don't. Tea Partiers at the time were pretty content to allow those messages to stand as representative.
Actually, there no shock awaiting me tomorrow. I fully expect the Democrats to lose control of at least the House, thanks to Obama, who appears to love campaigning but not being President.
The Democrats, I expect, will be in for worse problems in 2011, when they are placed in the extremely awkward position of not wanting to run with the sitting president for the 2012 election. The backlash of dropping Obama before he's been voted on for a second term could be devastating. It's their own fault for running with him, which was merely to make sure they were the first to put a black president in the White House.
Conan: And I still maintain that you give lip service to being non-partisan, but spend the majority of your ire castigating conservatives and Republicans for their over-the-top behavior while letting liberals and progressives off the hook for equally egregious behavior.
And I maintain that you haven't even bothered to acquaint yourself with the topic of this thread. Will you ever do so?
This thread was Amy's objections to the use of Nazi symbolism at the Restore Sanity rally. Both Amy and you seem consummately ignorant of two things, and determined to remain so: 1) the purpose of that particular sign, which is unquestionably polemic satire; and 2) that liberals aren't the only party using these symbols...and I can assure you that their presence at Tea Party rallies is not satirical.
So, I'm not allowed, as an independent to present the counter to these misconceptions. I have to ignore the rife inaccuracies, least I be accused of being a liberal. I posted the source, which I believe would fully convince any objective thinker with the purpose of Nazi symbolism at the Restore Sanity rally. You, of course, didn't bother looking at it, and aren't going to.
Well, it's been my observation that conservatives, apparently you included, cannot see independents at all. If you're not doctrinaire conservative, you're a liberal. Not a democrat, not a progressive, not an independent; a liberal.
Conan: Perhaps there's a little classism in you; as a long-time college student looking down on those uneducated masses with their provincial outlooks who populate Tea Party rallies while believing the progressive viewpoint represents an educated and enlightened outlook.
I know nothing about the educational credentials of Tea Party backed candidates, except Christine O'Donnell, only because her downfall is due to her numerous lies about her own.
And perhaps there's more than a little binary thinking in you. I honestly don't believe you could spot an independent.
If I'm merely paying lip service to being an independent, refusing to vote for Obama or Gore makes me a pretty disloyal liberal, wouldn't you say?
Conan: Although, to be fair, I'll admit I don't listen to O'Reilly, Beck, Limbaugh, or even Olbermann or Matthews; so when they cross the line I usually find out about it after-the-fact.
What do you know? We have something in common.
Patrick at November 1, 2010 1:59 AM
Patrick,
I'm sorry, but whatever points you are trying to make are so lost in name-calling and a better-than-thou attitude, that no one will ever take you seriously. Hell, I agree with most of what you're saying, and I still caught myself rolling my eyes after your 12th or so posting.
You mostly just come across as a blowhard that wants everyone to know your opinion while not bothering to listen to anyone else's at all. I agree with Kristen. We need to stop the name calling, etc, and figure out an action plan that goes further than, "Mom!!! The Tea Party started it!! They called someone a name!!". Seriously. You just sound like a whiner, even with the infusion of big words that I'm not sure you completely understand.
Renee at November 1, 2010 5:20 AM
The left has got to try and silence anyone who is popular and disagrees with their message.
-Sarah Palin
-Glenn Beck
-Rush Limbaugh
Because we all know how tolerant the left is and how they love to preach about diversity.
David M. at November 1, 2010 5:26 AM
Seriously, guys, this was comedy. I was at the rally, and it was largely a bunch of people who just want everyone to calm their shit down. As Stewart pointed out, "These are hard times, not end times."
I saw signs like "Use your inside voice" and "What Would Optimus Prime Do?"
The best part of the event: Some guy overestimating his athleticism and trying to climb a tree, with the crowd chanting "Yes you can!"
MonicaP at November 1, 2010 9:47 AM
Monica -
That's where they (and you) are wrong.
Either we stop the car from heading toward the cliff, or it IS "End Times".
It started in 2000 - The Republicans thought they had a mandate to do whatever the fuck they pleased, and went on a spending binge that made the Democrats blush. When the Democrats took over in 2006 (preaching a message of fiscal sanity, which we know now was a calculated bit of electoral fraud on the part of Pelosi and Reid) they took the spending car, shifted it into overdrive and welded the accelerator to the floor.
The Tea Party was a response to the fact that neither party has enough sense to turn off the fucking car before we go over the cliff.
If Greece or Ireland defaults, no big deal. Ok, maybe big deal, but not huge.
We default? The world is fucked.
So either we stop spending money we don't have, or the world takes it in the ass.
brian at November 1, 2010 9:59 AM
End times? Really? You're saying this is the worst place the world has EVER been in? Worse than the black death? Worse than the brink of nuclear war? Worse than the extinction event that wiped out the dinosaurs? Worse than the Dark Ages?
We've always lived in difficult times. Always. This is hard. It's not Apocalypse hard.
MonicaP at November 1, 2010 10:05 AM
Monica -
Yes to all of the above. We're talking about a breakdown of civil order in societies that have come to depend utterly upon government for their very survival.
You think people on the dole in Greece are going to survive when the money stops flowing? Think they're gonna quietly starve to death?
You're looking at civil unrest that will make Watts look like a hockey game.
At least when the comet hit the Earth, everything died. A good number of us are going to live through this, and we're all going to be changed for the worse by it. When you have to start fending off armed looters, you'll know we've hit rock bottom.
brian at November 1, 2010 11:36 AM
Renee: I'm sorry, but whatever points you are trying to make are so lost in name-calling and a better-than-thou attitude, that no one will ever take you seriously.
So, don't read my posts. You won't hurt my feelings by not reading them.
I would have said more, but I don't think you're worth it.
Patrick at November 1, 2010 12:57 PM
Conan - I have a bit of a crush for you.
And then there's my Iowahawk: The Rally to Destroy Sobriety
http://iowahawk.typepad.com/
Feebie at November 1, 2010 1:39 PM
brian: It started in 2000 - The Republicans thought they had a mandate to do whatever the fuck they pleased, and went on a spending binge that made the Democrats blush. When the Democrats took over in 2006 (preaching a message of fiscal sanity, which we know now was a calculated bit of electoral fraud on the part of Pelosi and Reid) they took the spending car, shifted it into overdrive and welded the accelerator to the floor.
A very astute observation, brian. Just when I've written you off as an hysterical flake, you surprise me.
Your need to decide for everyone else what their politics are seems borderline pathological, but this was impressive. It's as good as any I've ever seen to describe how we arrived at our current situation.
Patrick at November 1, 2010 2:05 PM
This is what we call "damning with faint praise." It's common when one finally finds the weight of their inferiority unbearable. If you review my past commentary on things economic, I think you'll find that they are similarly accurate. I'm not the idiot you imagine me to be.
Your need to deny your inherent leftism is what's pathological. Either you're a leftist, or you simply talk like one. If you aren't one, then stop talking like one, and I won't need to criticize you for being one.
It's that whole thing of granting the enemy control of the narrative. Kinda like when lefties over here start talking about Israel as "Zionist entity". Once you start using the words of the enemy, you become the enemy.
Words mean things.
brian at November 1, 2010 2:56 PM
Brian: Your need to deny your inherent leftism is what's pathological.
Indeed, Dr. Brian? From where I sit, I'm not the one with the problem.
Amy claims to be a civil libertarian. That's fine with me. You claim to be a conservative. Also fine with me.
I am in independent. But to you, that's unbearable. I have to call myself a leftist, or else I'm a liar or so mentally incompetent that I can't possibly know what I am. This has to be, so that the world makes sense to you.
It's kind of reminiscent of religious arguments on another message board that I used to participate on.
It was a Christian message board, open to all denominations, but certain religious bigots feel that Christians must believe as they do on each and every point and must be their denomination. So, they were forever telling avowed Christians that they weren't Christians at all.
Sadly, that was the bulk of the discussion.
And yes, that is a pathology. An obsessive need to define other people for them. I'm fully capable of deciding my own politics without your help. Sane people couldn't care less. I'm not going to scrutinize your every word, decide which ones meet the standard definition of "conservative," then have a screeching hissy fit denying your avowed conservatism if you so much as deviate on one tiny point.
That's the nice thing about being an independent. You can't deviate from it. We believe what we want. We can side with the left on some issues and side with the right on others, and side with neither on other issues.
And for the record, I have always called Israel by it's recognized name, not "Zionist entity."
Patrick at November 1, 2010 4:21 PM
1) You need to learn what an analogy means. That I used the comparison of the type that refers to Israel as "Zionist Entity" does not imply or infer that I believe you ever thought or said it. When the construct of "A is to B as X is to Y" it is not meant to equate the two sides.
2) I have never said or implied that you have to call yourself a leftist. But when you have predictably taken the left side of every argument here, your claims to be centrist or even libertarian are either ill-informed or outright lies. They are often the tactic of the moby, or as they are called at Ace's "Concerned Christian Conservatives".
If you had taken even a right-leaning stance on even one issue, perhaps I'd have a different opinion of where you're coming from. But since you are near as makes no odds always on the left, I assume that you are therefore a leftist, your protestations to the contrary aside.
brian at November 1, 2010 5:17 PM
I could post the particular issues that set me at odds with doctrinaire liberals, but why bother?
Your pathological need to believe I'm a liberal would just reject it all.
Patrick at November 1, 2010 6:34 PM
Anyone else think that maybe Brian and Patrick should just kiss and make up? Yeesh.
Renee at November 2, 2010 4:51 AM
The 'I hate Illinois Nazis" sign you saw, was it being held by two young men dressed as the Blues Brothers? Check out the movie, then you'll get the joke. Don't assume it was a Beck hate sign, because you are so wrong and you are doing exactly the sort of thing Beck would do.
Marymo at November 7, 2010 6:50 AM
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