Vile Racist Campaign Against Racism
It's shocking. Should children grow up thinking they're bad people by virtue of their skin color? Richard Liebrecht writes in the Edmonton Sun:
Controversy is brewing over a city-sponsored anti-racism campaign that calls on Caucasians to recognize their "white privilege"....On the campaign's website, www.racismfreeedmonton.ca, under the "What can you do to stop racism" heading, the first line reads "acknowledge your white privilege."
"White privilege refers to all the benefits we get just for being white. Most of us are aware of how racism hurts others, but we're not aware of how it benefits us," the site reads.
It then paraphrases Dr. Peggy McIntosh, associate director of the Wellesley Collage Center for Research on Women, a U.S. college, and her 1989 paper "White Privilege: Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack."
"Most of us have little awareness of our white privilege. We 're so used to having the benefits that come with being white that we don't even realize we have them. We also aren't aware of our privilege because the system has encouraged us not to be aware," reads the website.
Let's be honest here: There are racist whites and racist blacks, and I'm opposed to people being awarded jobs -- or being turned down for them -- based on anything but merit. Sure, it happens, but we should be working toward a color-blind society, and recognizing that what very often separates people from opportunity is lack of "financial privilege"; for example, for white guys who don't come from money but cannot avail themselves of those "diversity" scholarships and fellowships that are anything but diverse.
I'm also opposed to sexism in offering opportunities -- like this recent example by Maria Shriver:
...an event in Long Beach sponsored by first lady Maria Shriver to provide free medical, financial and educational services to low-income women.
So, if you're a low-income man, screw you, go eat out of Dumpster? Nice! Sorry, but isn't feminism supposed to be about equal treatment for all, not special treatment for people with vaginas?
Thanks, KW
Why are there no articles demanding that minorities acknowledge the double standard that benefits them?
The prevailing wisdom is still that blacks can't be bigots, only the victims of bigotry. And this mindset has allowed them to get away with blatantly racist attitudes.
Representative Bobby Rush (D-Ill.) said it would be a "national disgrace" if Obama's vacant Senate seat was filled by anyone but a black person. Maybe he took some heat for it...but why does he still have a job?
Can you imagine the hue and cry that would have gone up if a white person suggested that it would be a national disgrace if anyone but a white person filled a vacated Senate seat if a white Senator needed to be replaced?
Patrick at November 8, 2010 11:45 PM
I read a few far-right hate sites, and it felt to me like the forced cultural self-loathing contributed to the extreme feelings. People need a sense of pride in their culture, if they don't get it they will look elsewhere to satisfy their need for a "tribe", and unfortunately extreme groups are one place they look.
Talking to my German age-peers is also interesting. A lot of them have kind of swung around and are deeply resentful of the "Germans are evil Nazis" thing. Of course, many Germans WERE evil Nazis, but my age-peers weren't born then and neither were their parents. It seems to me that building up resentment is NOT a way to mend ethnic/racial fences.
NicoleK at November 8, 2010 11:57 PM
On the other hand, I'm not opposed to racism or sexism or any other criteria when providing a service. Sometimes its easier to target a specific group to help them. Too often, people say, "XYZ charity is only helping Bs! What about the poor Cs?" If you're concerned about low-income men, you should start a charity for them. Charities tend to be small and not have a ton of money (with exceptions of course) so it's easier to target specific demographics rather than try to deal with everyone's needs.
I'd totally give money to a charity that educated, say, poor white appalachian men. Whose needs are probably different than inner city poor black womens'. I don't think a charity that tried to deal with both would do very well, unless they were huge.
NicoleK at November 9, 2010 12:03 AM
Nicole, but you don't think such a charity would be inundated with lawsuits?
Patrick at November 9, 2010 12:09 AM
sign I shouldn't be reading this late:
I read www . racismfreeedmonton . ca as "racism free'ed Monton, California"
The Former Banker at November 9, 2010 12:18 AM
Privilege exists in all aspects of our society, and I don't think there's anything wrong with acknowledging it, as long as it is not used to shame anyone or make anyone feel as though they must apologize for what is essentially an accident of birth.
One example of privilege that this blog in particular made me aware of is the female privilege of being able to interact with children without risking being labelled a pedophile or falsely accused of sexual misconduct. I'll talk or play with a child without giving it a second thought, so I was shocked to see the number of men who were afraid to volunteer at a school/daycare, invite their children's friends over to the house, or even help out a lost toddler. Obviously this isn't fair or right. But I had never before realized that this inequality existed, which is the whole point of privilege: you don't notice it when it benefits you.
Examples of white privilege that I can think of: not having to worry about being stripped-searched on an airplane. Not being pulled over for "driving while black." Not being followed around by security at a store. Again, these aren't things that you'd consciously notice until you learn that someone else's experience is different than yours. So I think it's valuable to acknowledge and discuss this dynamic rather than act like it doesn't exist.
But again: the purpose of this campaign should be discussion and awareness, not apologies and special treatment. (Can't get behind the sexist special treatment for low income women as described above either-that's just not right.)
Shannon at November 9, 2010 12:19 AM
Patrick, maybe, maybe not. Certainly not because of the man thing, though maybe the race thing. But there are certainly charities that are male-only... particularly homeless shelters. They tend to be sex-segregated. Or there is that charity that helps the lost mormon boys. There are lots of male-only charities.
NicoleK at November 9, 2010 12:25 AM
I love my white privilege. It is really helpful here in South Korea. Who knew that Asians can be so racists. Of course you have not experienced illogic till you hyave heard a Korean talk about blood and purity. Of course life here would be a whole lot harder here job wise, business interactions, and dating wise if I was black or South East Asian.
Of course my whiteness is balanced out by the my being a fat bastard. Koreans want their white, fair hair and blue eyed beauties too. So I am discriminated for being fat but I still get the white privilege. It balances out!
John Paulson at November 9, 2010 2:38 AM
I think white privilege should be earned and should not be an automatic right. The same goes to those nonwhites. When we ecountered too many predominant nonwhites behaving badly, it is not racist to assume that they are inferior.
WLIL at November 9, 2010 4:37 AM
Nicole is right. There are charities that help different segments of the population that are in need. The thing for low income women is probably more for woman to get mammograms and pap smears. Cervical cancer is on the rise and has a high cure rate with early detection. For a woman who can't afford a trip to the GYN, its a shame that it could be a death sentence. If there were a singular disease facing young men and someone formed a charity to help, I wouldn't see a problem with it. If anything, Maria Shriver's program is most likely for the uninsured which I would assume means those that fall in between the categories of almost supporting themselves and not on social services. Men don't get cervical cancer, obviously. So why not address something that is a big problem and do something about it.
I don't know how it works in California, but here in NY, there are many clinics and low income programs for men and women, but still a push for women in regards to Paps and Mammos. I think its more of an awareness thing with those programs hoping that by offering such things that women will hear about it and go get screened.
Kristen at November 9, 2010 5:16 AM
And as far as the racism thing goes....I do feel like I grew up with a certain amount of white privilege. I grew up in a very white neighborhood. In fact my county was up until a few years ago, the most segregated in the US. I can't pretend I haven't seen racism or that I haven't benefited from being white. I hate the "my father never owned a slave" comments. I don't think that the campaing Amy blogged about is the answer, but let's not pretend that racism isn't still very much alive and well in America. Here on Long Island, there is still a very big difference in growing up white and growing up black. Just come visit the neighborhoods that are predominantly white or black and notice a difference in the schools, grocery stores, and homes.
Kristen at November 9, 2010 5:19 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2010/11/09/vile_racist_cam.html#comment-1779217">comment from KristenI grew up with "American privilege" and I do feel it's easier in this society to be white. But, I think racism is ugly -- as is race-shame.
Amy Alkon at November 9, 2010 5:33 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2010/11/09/vile_racist_cam.html#comment-1779218">comment from KristenMen don't get cervical cancer, obviously.
Men get prostate cancer, testicular cancer, and other cancers. If you're going to have a program, have it be for low-income PEOPLE.
Amy Alkon at November 9, 2010 5:35 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2010/11/09/vile_racist_cam.html#comment-1779221">comment from WLILI think white privilege should be earned and should not be an automatic right. The same goes to those nonwhites. When we ecountered too many predominant nonwhites behaving badly, it is not racist to assume that they are inferior.
This is called...racism.
Amy Alkon at November 9, 2010 5:35 AM
I do not like this whole notion of "privilege" because it turns reality on its head and advocates for the lowest common denominator.
it says that I am privileged because I am not going to get pulled over because of my race.
GREAT! That is how it is supposed to be! Why would I want to change that? What I want to change is that black people will not get pulled over because of their race. It is not a "privilege." It is what we should want for all people. it is not that I have a "privilege," but that they have a "disadvantage." Let's try to fix their disadvantage, not my privilege.
(Of course, I know, there is a list of privileges and not all of them can be remedied. Minorities are always going to feel some disadvantage. For instance, I can go through my day without having to interact with minorities, but minorities generally cannot (Actually, that is not quite true in my specific case, but that is one of the examples thay call "privilege.). I understand that that cannot be fixed, but, for some things, you have to simply chalk it up to "that is how the world works." John Paulson's example of living in Korea makes that point. That is just a fundamental dynamic of being a minority; it is neither bad nor good; it is just the way things are.)
-Jut
JutGory at November 9, 2010 5:46 AM
An interesting analogy that I once saw was about hiring someone to infiltrate the Ku Klux Klan or one of the other "white power" groups. You would legitimately want to get someone who looks the "proper" way, speaks with the "proper" accent, and can be accepted by the group that you are targeting. That is "discrimination" on the basis of "race", but it is a legitimate discrimination.
Sabba Hillel at November 9, 2010 5:53 AM
Was the Shriver event sponsored by the state, or by private funds that she spearheaded? If the latter, she can offer to who she wants.
I don't have white priviledge. I have the priviledge of having been raised by married parents, who worked their butts off before having kids, and who stressed education strongly. If non-whites aren't getting that (and most aren't) then let's address THAT, where the problem lies. And that problem lies with THEM, not whites.
momof4 at November 9, 2010 6:05 AM
Yeah, yeah, yeah, Kristen. Every single time there's a racist/sexist charity, someone comes along and tries to justify it. There's a competition, it seems, among minorities that are discriminated against. Everyone claims they have it worse than everyone else. Blacks claim to have it the worst, white women can point to statistics that show they're more discriminated against than black men, Jews have a particular legacy, and gay people have their own brand of discrimination to contend with.
One of the things I've noticed is that those who are the guardians of their legacy of their own brand of discrimination seem to claim that theirs is the worst. And they're quick to point out that no one else has any right to judge them because no outsider could possibly understand.
However, they seem to know all about what it's like to be a white male. Funny how that works, isn't it? We have no idea what it's like to be one of them, but they know all about what it's like to be us.
Patrick at November 9, 2010 6:07 AM
WLIL:
I think white privilege should be earned and should not be an automatic right. The same goes to those nonwhites. When we ecountered too many predominant nonwhites behaving badly, it is not racist to assume that they are inferior.
AA:
This is called...racism.
I call it Bayesian statistics myself. The dilemma is real, although WLIL takes it two bridges and a ferry too far.
As much as we might abhor prejudice, there aren't enough hours in a lifetime to encounter each passerby, each set of footsteps in the dark (h/t Jesse Jackson), as a unique individual. We have a million tiny judgement calls to make and we're forced to base them on imperfect correlations with what we can perceive. In other words, prejudice. You got a better plan?
--
phunctor
phunctor at November 9, 2010 6:07 AM
"Racism" is a charge often used without merit. Racism is used so often now that it is like the boy who cried wolf. I hear the word now, especially if the charge is made by Sharpton or Jackson, and I don't take it seriously.
The NAACP still sees its principal activity as finding racism and stopping it. I think the NAACP should refocus on other issues to help the black community such as black teen pregnancy/black single motherhood and black-on-black crime.
Nick at November 9, 2010 6:10 AM
"I read a few far-right hate sites,"
What ones? Where does one FIND that? Is it like my thing where I read some very whacky progressive parenting sites, merely to inject some sanity?
Shannon, my 6 month old was stripped searched for a plane. Unfortunately, they pay NO attention to color, ethnicity, gender, etc when worrying about plane security, and they sure as heck should. WHen trying to prevent X crime, profiling those most likely to commit X crime is the most efficient way of doing it. It's not bad. I'm a woman, and I'm not up in arms that prostitution stings target women. Okay, actually I'm in favor of legalizing it, and having no stings, but you get the point.
momof4 at November 9, 2010 6:11 AM
"Men get prostate cancer, testicular cancer, and other cancers. If you're going to have a program, have it be for low-income PEOPLE."
Again, different charities target different segments of the population. If you're going to restrict it and only allow a charity that caters to both then why stop there? Tell the American Lung Cancer Society that they must fund breast and pancreatic cancer. Tell the Juvenile Diabetes Research Institute that they must fund for adult onset diabetes. And stop all of these scholarships. There are scholarships for Italian Americans, Black Americans, for people of Latino descent, etc. There are many reasons people choose a charity besides racism or sexism. It could be as simple as having known someone who suffered from a disease and you feel it was due to her financial situation and you want to change that for others in that situation. I don't see the problem.
Nobody is saying that there can't be a charity to screen men for testicular or prostate cancer. But when a man goes for a regular check up, he can get checked right in the general practitioner's office through an examination and blood work. A woman has to go to a GYN and a general practitioner for all of her medical needs. It is an increased expense in time and money. I'm not saying discriminate against men, but when we start restricting charitable institutions that's pretty sad. And again, you're just bringing up Maria Shriver. There is a lab where I live that offers free x-rays, mammos, mri, etc, to low-income of both sexes. I'm sure there are places in California as well but maybe they don't get the same name recogition as Maria Shriver. I would be curious as to what her answer would be to this blog item. Why not question her on it? I would find that very interesting.
Kristen at November 9, 2010 6:12 AM
"Examples of white privilege that I can think of: not having to worry about being stripped-searched on an airplane."
Been following the news lately? TSA just took that one away.
silverpie at November 9, 2010 6:13 AM
"Yeah, yeah, yeah, Kristen. Every single time there's a racist/sexist charity, someone comes along and tries to justify it."
So Patrick do you think charities should not be allowed to state their target group? Should they be allowed to have a target agenda-like cancer screenings? or should they just have to toss out money to whoever for whatever until they're broke?
Is PFLAG bigoted because they don't strive to help straight kids? I think private groups should be able to do as they like, personally. Even if I can't stand them, like the NAACP.
momof4 at November 9, 2010 6:18 AM
Is white privilege anything like a "get out of the draft free" card? Mine must have been lost in the mail.
I had the right to go to college, as long as my grades were good enough and I paid.
I am still not in the NBA, collecting millions for playing a game. Cosmic equality has eluded me. I never had 20/20 vision either, and the hottest girls in high school didn't acknowledge my existence.
When is the last time you heard of an organization admitting it had accomplished its mission and should disband? What will the grievance studies majors do?
Life is unfair, and then you die.
MarkD at November 9, 2010 6:25 AM
"Yeah, yeah, yeah, Kristen. Every single time there's a racist/sexist charity, someone comes along and tries to justify it."
I'm not trying to justify it, Patrick. Maybe you should read my comments again. I have never suffered from discrimination nor do I pretend to know what its like to be black, a white male, or anythinge else. If anything, I stated that I grew up in a all white affluent community and definitely see the benefit as opposed to the black kid that grew up ten minutes away from me. I also said that there may be reasons one charity is closer to someone's heart than another and that we all have a right to feel closer to a charity. Nowhere did I bash anyone or try to justify discrimination of any kind. I just don't happen to feel that a charity that targets one segment is always based on racism or sexism.
Kristen at November 9, 2010 6:28 AM
I am lacking the words to express my complete and utter contempt at this right now (and trying hard not to swear). It's so counter-productive that it's hard not to see it as deliberate. Surely these people aren't so obtuse as to be unable to see the consequences of this - i.e. blacks hating whites, whites getting fed up and voting for "white power" parties and joining white power groups....
My brother once had a pampered middle class black guy telling him about how he's so hard done by and that my brother (who lives on less than $600 a month) is somehow privileged for being white. Of course, my brother pointed out the stupidity of the statement and that was that, for now. It's incredible how people are brainwashed - through the school system, university, television, movies.... Seriously, if conservatives don't get their fingers out and learn that this is where their message needs to be, we're doomed.
Thag Jones at November 9, 2010 7:10 AM
There are many reasons people choose a charity besides racism or sexism.
Agreed. If we're going to start slamming charities for targeting segments of the population, then we might as well do away with charities entirely, because they all focus on one thing or another. Can we start slamming those jerks at the Alzheimer's Association being ageist?
MonicaP at November 9, 2010 7:13 AM
Oooh, what I can do as a parent includes "form interracial friendships." So I'm supposed to deliberately befriend someone because of their race in order to "teach" my kids... what exactly?
See, this is why Canada's multiculturalism policy is a failure - it's artificial and forced. You don't make friends by being forced to display your progressive "tolerance" (I love how that implies we're only tolerating these people, as if we'd rather not but sort of like wearing that sweater grandma knitted for you, it would be rude not to).
The complete idiocy of this is what makes it hard to believe it's sincere. I suppose I shouldn't underestimate the stupidity of humans, but I also don't underestimate their capacity for evil, and as far as I'm concerned, that's what's on display here. Satan is real, people.
Furthermore, if one lives in a Canadian city as I do, it's virtually impossible to keep one's children from forming their own interracial friendships and guess what? They don't pay much attention to race unless you do. My daughter will ask a black nanny with a white baby if that is her kid - she doesn't even notice!! That's colour blind and we don't need lessons from the government on how to be suitably meek as white people to gain some sort of place in progressivist, self-congratulatory heaven. What bullshit.
Thag Jones at November 9, 2010 7:25 AM
JutGory is right. The idea that the absence of the effects of bigotry is a privilege sets up the presumption that the natural state of society is one of oppression and degradation.
For instance, when they'd run a program like this in my niece's school, she was informed that it is a privilege that her parents are married, and that her father has a job.
What they'd effectively done was to posit the experience of a fictional black child as normal, to then claim that any life experience other than that fictional account was necessarily the result of white privilege. Of course their account was lurid and tendentious.
The concept of white privilege isn't accurate or helpful, it's just another device that race activists use to shame people. The beauty of the idea is that it puts the accused into the position of having to either prove a negative, or demean themselves. I think that's why it's so attractive to race activists.
Nick at November 9, 2010 7:29 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2010/11/09/vile_racist_cam.html#comment-1779269">comment from Thag JonesIt's so vile and condescending -- the advice to form interracial friendships. I have a bunch of black friends, and just as with my white friends, they're my friends because I have a sort of crush on them as humans: I find them intellectually exciting, talented, accomplished in exciting ways, and funny/charming, and worthy in important ways.
To befriend people out of some push to have a multi-culti address book, eeuw, how ugly and condescending. (Are you supposed to introduce them as your affirmative action friends?)
Amy Alkon at November 9, 2010 7:30 AM
Momof4:
Of course they should.
I just object to the double standard that insists that no one can possibly know what it's like to be a member of their minority status, but they know all about what it's like to be white and male.
I also object to the competition between these minorities who claim to be the most discriminated against class of all, and that everyone else has it so easy compared to them.
Patrick at November 9, 2010 7:55 AM
I think that you have to consider the potential that the people who promote these programs are themselves very racist. A lot of their ideas don't make sense until you look at them from the perspective of someone who accepts the worldview they entail. I wonder if many race activists are like like the proverbial reformed alcoholic who becomes a prohibitionist in order to expiate his own demons.
nick at November 9, 2010 7:58 AM
I wonder if many race activists are like like the proverbial reformed alcoholic who becomes a prohibitionist in order to expiate his own demons.
Well said.
Thag Jones at November 9, 2010 8:07 AM
Also, notice how many "race activists" are WASPy types who most likely grew up in wealthy suburbs and never really had more than superficial dealings with "other" races, such as the crossing guard or the proprietor of the local variety store. To them, a black person is sort of scary and foreign, to the rest of us, their view leaves us shaking our heads in dismay. They're like relics from a bygone era of water fountains for "coloured people."
Dear "activists": Get a real job.
Thag Jones at November 9, 2010 8:13 AM
The activists will (maybe) get real jobs when they stop profiting (whether financially or "spiritually") from perpetuating the racism they profess to abhor. See also Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson.
Flynne at November 9, 2010 8:18 AM
How very true, Flynne. And let's not forget Louis Farrakhan, Jeremiah Wright and his adoring disciple from 20 years, Barack Obama.
(This is nothing I haven't said in the past, but watch Conan insist that I can't be an independent because I supposedly never find fault with liberals.)
Patrick at November 9, 2010 8:39 AM
What Shannon said.
And "Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack" (if you haven't read it) is an enlightening read.
It should never be about shaming, but about awareness. When you have awareness, a connection can be established - it is the institutionalized separateness that created this mess to begin with. So finger pointing will not get us out of it.
They should also use this opportunity to discuss single parenthood and various factors that recreate the poverty cycle and it's impact.
It's all well and good to discuss what string of events got you there and to define your situation...but there is no purpose to it if no one wants to discuss how YOU can get OUT of it.
Feebie at November 9, 2010 8:54 AM
Look there is a charity for everything. Charities have to focus on one particular problem because if they didn't they'd go broke trying to solve everything.
You can't do everything, but you can do one thing really really well, that is a good model for a charity to follow.
-----------
As far as "white privilege" goes, I call bullshit.
Are you getting a better education because you're white?
Fuck no, you're getting it because high property tax revenue in your area paid for better schools and teachers than in another area.
OR, your parents were well off enough to pay for private tutors, educated enough to home school, or pay for a private institution.
In college, either your grades got you a scholarship, or some other skill such as football got you in. Perhaps your parents were well off enough to pay, but otherwise you either worked your way through or a foundation of some kind provided some sort of support. Now most of those foundations that people think of focus pretty well exclusively on women and/or minorities, if they're not focused on pushing people with specific diploma goals through, so that isn't "white privilege".
In terms of money management, do you buy below your means or above, do you get credit cards or turn them down, do you save your money, learn how to maximize its purchasing power and growth potential, or do you spend it?
There is a pattern developing here, and it isn't race.
It is MONEY. White people with money got their good money habits from parents who taught them how to have good money habits. It wasn't white privilege, it was hard work, pluck, perhaps a little luck, that got the multistory house in the good neighborhood, and it was good teaching on the part of parents that imbued those lessons in children so that when they grew up, they could enjoy the privileges that come with financial success.
I work with a fairly diverse group of people in the military, and let me tell you that the only privileges people get are the ones they pay for. I have a black friend who for an entire year never bothered much to check his bank account, didn't know what he owed on his car, and was almost always broke or owing money. We're the same rank. I have a nice condo, a comfortable lifestyle, decent stuff, etc. Anyone looking from the outside in might say, "Oh that is white privilege right there!"
NO. I invest 25% of my income in dividend mutual funds, I have a low low mortgage which I overpay on, I got rid of my credit cards. I learned good money habits.
He didn't, he bought a 20k car, upped the loan a bit more to put 2k rims on it, he ate out every day at fast food places, and had 4 maxed out credit cards.
I sat down with him one day and gave him alllllll the lessons I had learned over the years, his car is paid off, now has cheaper rims, he's saved money, the cards are almost gone, he's looking at buying a home and he's never broke anymore.
Privilege is paid for by cash, not born to by race.
As the author of Rich Dad Poor Dad said, "If you want to be rich, look at what poor people do...then DON'T DO THAT."
I'm sure there is racism in the world, and in the U.S. but there is not one single legal barrier between the private citizen and his own ambition with regard to his race. Now, the private citizen will almost certainly encounter a racist or two in his life, but none so powerful that they may crush dreams or ambitions or deter hard work.
A useless campaign that merely validates victimhood and makes innocent people into "the bad guy".
Robert at November 9, 2010 9:04 AM
Robert, what an awesome post. And you are 100% right.
Flynne at November 9, 2010 9:13 AM
"Fuck no, you're getting it because high property tax revenue in your area paid for better schools and teachers than in another area."
What about areas in the South, where there was segregation and that that segregation - while not enforced by law still exists? What about the neighborhoods filled with single mothers who are on state assistance (provided for by the government as an incentive to have babies out of wedlock and not work)? (This is why I believe social/government dependency programs are inherently racist).
"Now most of those foundations that people think of focus pretty well exclusively on women and/or minorities, if they're not focused on pushing people with specific diploma goals through, so that isn't "white privilege"."
Certainly, it doesn't help that the focus could be on those that will actually be able to go on to afford a diploma,no? Not everyone can get a scholarship. And since most of the trade schools have been ridiculed and devalued as "less than" by elitist libs (mostly because they compete with the government funded higher education) what exactly does that promote?
"It is MONEY. White people with money got their good money habits from parents who taught them how to have good money habits. It wasn't white privilege, it was hard work, pluck, perhaps a little luck, that got the multistory house in the good neighborhood, and it was good teaching on the part of parents that imbued those lessons in children so that when they grew up, they could enjoy the privileges that come with financial success."
Did your parents inherent wealth? Did their parents? Did you? Probably a good start, eh?
Look, this is ultimately about personal responsibility but a big key when speaking about racism (if you actually want to get anywhere with it) is to show BOTH sides. I think the race card has been played out and I for one am sick of it and all the excuses as to why blacks are so oppressed by whitey - I am with ya, I get it.
But there are various posts on this board that seem to equate all this to a moral flaw and nothing else. There are other factors. If they don't get discussed then there will be no solution. That is just the reality.
Feebie at November 9, 2010 9:29 AM
Can't see that I personally grew up with the benefits of racism. I lived in a nearly all-white town. I was too busy dealing with the fun of being chubby, wearing glasses, being well-read and being the youngest in both my family and my classes to think about my white privilege.
We all have stories. Mine includes being raised by parents and a grandma who taught us not to call names or think we were better than anybody else. (But watch out for Mexicans because they all carry knives, and watch out for gypsies or they might kidnap you!). I think we all have some "isms" if we dig a little.
Just a side note: I remember a Bloome County cartoon in which a character bought a copy of "Ebony" magazine at a newsstand, and was followed up by one of the main characters(damn, I forgot his name, boy with hair sort of like Conan O'Brien) who requests a copy of "Ivory" magazine. I believe he was called a racist and sent away.
Pricklypear at November 9, 2010 9:38 AM
What airline are you flying?
Conan the Grammarian at November 9, 2010 10:05 AM
How, exactly, does having a whole class full of white people sitting around contemplating their "white privilege" help black people to succeed in life?
Big tits, a fine ass, flaming red hair, and a stellar fashion sense are all great advantages for a woman to have in life. Amy has these things in abundance. Should she spend two hours a day going on a guilt trip about the unfair privileges she has over her flat, flabby, and frumpy fellow females? How on earth would that help any aspiring plain Jane advicegoddesses out there become better writers & advice columnists?
Let's look at the bottom line: is it helping poor blacks & other minorities to succeed in life in the real world? If not, then it's a pointless exercise that doesn't benefit anyone except the PC peddlers who are pushing it.
Martin at November 9, 2010 10:13 AM
It can be helpful to see the world through different eyes.
A few years ago I was walking home at night, about 10 feet behind a young couple, maybe in their late teens. The woman looked behind her nervously, the man looked behind him, too, and then said, "Don't worry, it's just a girl."
It never occurred to me before that experience that, had I been born with a penis, I might have had to defend myself (verbally or physically) from a couple a little nervous about men walking behind them.
MonicaP at November 9, 2010 10:21 AM
MonicaP, I see the point you are trying to make, but seeing the world through different eyes doesn't have to require the shaming of an entire race.
I think Martin's analogy is a better one than yours, and the reason yours falls flat is that a man is in most cases going to be physically more threatening than a woman, whether or not the fear has any foundation. Someone walking up behind you on a dark street sets off a normal fight or flight response, and the fact that a man would be of more concern to them than a woman is based in reality.
This white privilege malarkey is much more like the idea that an attractive woman should feel ashamed because not everyone is as attractive as she is. That one particular group is at present doing better than another doesn't necessarily mean that group is inherently racist or privileged due to a racist system.
A big part of the problem is that poor blacks are raised in a negative environment full of stereotypes, like the little black kid who is accused of "acting white" because he likes to read books instead of watch BET all day to "keep it real." This has absolutely nothing to do with white people - you can't blame whitey for everything.
There comes a time when people need to take responsibility for their own families and communities and stop expecting government programs - that have a proven track record for making things worse - to alleviate their ills.
Thag Jones at November 9, 2010 10:41 AM
"That one particular group is at present doing better than another doesn't necessarily mean that group is inherently racist or privileged due to a racist system."
How could that one group not be privileged if they are doing better than another group when the system is racist?
I am not sure how much sense that makes?
Feebie at November 9, 2010 11:16 AM
Feebie, because one group is always going to do better than another - life's not fair, get over it. In order for the argument of privilege to make sense, one has to accept that the "system" is indeed racist, and what with "affirmative action" and all these days, I'm not sure this is really holding much water anymore. What about cases where a more qualified white man is passed over in favour of a less qualified "minority" person because there's a quota that needs filling? It does happen, so isn't that an inherently racist system benefiting all those hard done by grievance groups?
It's not "the system" that makes blacks keep themselves down by shaming anyone who dares to try to do better (tall poppy syndrome), or by calling anyone who is a success outside the entertainment industry a sell-out. Look at Condoleeza Rice - if she were a democrat the leftist media would be all over her rags to riches story, but instead she's called a token "house nigger" or some such garbage. Or Clarence Thomas - anyone read his memoir? These people who claim so much non-racism for themselves are the worst bunch of bigots going.
Thag Jones at November 9, 2010 11:33 AM
"Did your parents inherent wealth? Did their parents? Did you? Probably a good start, eh?" Nope those socialist fucktards took it all away. Killed a shit load of us to boot. So I spent my childhood in a very blue collar area.
Now I'll let you in on a little secret. Whites hate other whites too, big fuck surprise for most. I got picked on and fucked with constantly for being Russian in an Irish-Italian area. Also for not being catholic. Our success was slow staged progress. Each generation did better than the last. We are now way above these half literate fuckers. Nothing to do with white privilege, they were just as white as me. They chose to wallow in their own ignorance and stupidity I did not. Now I get to pay for their food, healthcare and entertainment. Oh happy fucking joy joy.
I somethings wonder if the racial divide in this country has to do with it's obviousness. Take an IRA and a Britt and stick them in a room together separated by armored glass. Ask a bunch of people from other areas of the world which is which. Same for Masad and Taliban. Romanian and Gypsy. Serb, Croat, Bosnian. Then take a white guy and a black guy and ask which one is black? Just a concept I've come up with while dealing with my own personal prejudices. All of which run solely on class and education not race. I did have those at one point but realized that I can't logically hate someone for anything they are not complicit in.
vlad at November 9, 2010 11:39 AM
I am furious with this initiative in Edmonton, to me it stinks of racism. I have never ever been witness to white privilege. My white parents were poor as church mice when they were children (my grandmother worked for a black man), they worked hard and made a great life for themselves and their daughters.
My white husband was so poor his 'bedroom' was the hallway. He worked hard, with no help from anyone, to make a good life for himself and his family.
The Canadian government advertises jobs but stipulates only visible minorities can apply. Is that an example of white privilege? Maybe white privilege is the fact that my office (and many others) no longer hires or promotes white people.
Racism is a white woman being turned away from a battered woman's shelter because "white women don't know the meaning of the word abuse."
I have seen (and personally experienced) countless instances of racism in the last twenty years but in every instance it was a white person being discriminated against. Not to say that black people aren't discriminated against but it works both ways.
The only thing a program like the one in Edmonton promotes is racism.
On their website it says that asking someone where they are from is racist. How so? I live in the largest city in Canada. Very few people who live in this city grew up here, so a good conversation starter is 'where are you from?' When I ask that question it is not because of the person's 'race' it is because I am not from here and I have met very few people who are from here. I ask the question because I may know someone from their home town or I may have been to their home town or I may like to go to their home town and would like to know more about it (see, conversation starter). I just want to get to know the person and where they are from is a good start.
Just last friday I was, yet again, accosted by a fellow asking for contributions to pay for a black history magazine. I get hit up by these guys all the time but this fellow looked so hungry and his clothes were so threadbare that I did give him some cash and take the 'magazine.' In the magazine it lists 'black inventions.' Now, the first one to strike me was the printing press was invented by a black man. HUNH? the most famous invention in the history of man and they are actually trying to claim it was not Gutenberg who invented it but a black man. I looked up every single item on the list and every single one of them was invented by a white person. How does promoting lies help 'black pride'? Many 'black' people have contributed to society, why not promote the truth?
As for the black men getting pulled over for being black, I have to comment on this. A couple of years ago a Toronto newspaper requested a list of all people by race pulled over by the police during a given time period. The newspaper reported on how racist the police are because so many black men compared to all other 'races' were pulled over. What they did not comment on, at all, was the fact that in many cases it was the same black man getting pulled over repeatedly, and that those black men getting pulled over were known criminals. Essentially (and I am making up the numbers but this is to illustrate my point), out of one-hundred men getting pulled over thirty times the man was black, but it was really ten black men each getting pulled over three times. When you just look at the numbers your perception becomes scewed, if you look at the actual number of individuals you get an entirely different story. That same newspaper has never once printed the fact that every single shooting but one, that has occurred in Toronto in the last five years (I have only paid attention to the last five years) has been committed by a black man.
I will finish off in the words of an exco-worker, "It doesn't matter if a white kid dies because white people don't love their children like my people do. White families are not close like my people are." She believed in her statement and saw nothing wrong with saying that to me, a white mother. Who's the racist eh?
Ingrid at November 9, 2010 11:42 AM
"Feebie, because one group is always going to do better than another - life's not fair, "
I understand that, and your argument (prima face) I have no problem with. I am not asking for fair, I am pointing out where the system is inequitable. Besides, I am not talking about just ANY group doing better than another group because of xyz. We are talking about a system, a racist system that has been institutionalized that garners privileges to one group over another. An automatic boost up in hierarchy according to skin color.
When you've ever been unemployed at anytime, do you worry about people perceiving you a lazy?
Like I said - I am not talking about fair. I think fair is irresponsible and irrelevant - I am talking about equitable.
You can talk until you are blue in the face about all the facts and who's who and who does what - but the truth is if you want to talk about RACISM you can't be defensive and you HAVE to look at both sides. There is no other option - this has become pathological in our culture now.
Feebie at November 9, 2010 11:44 AM
The following is from a job posting for a government job in my province:
Employment Equity is a factor in selection. Applicants are requested to indicate in their covering letter or resumé if they are from any of the following groups: women, Aboriginal people, visible minorities and persons with a disability.
"Employment Equity" seems to mean that white men need not apply.
Steamer at November 9, 2010 11:45 AM
“'White Privilege': A Shield against Reason"
http://www.springerlink.com/content/rmu083106568mp67/fulltext.html
lsomber at November 9, 2010 11:49 AM
I also wonder how much of this is "Mistakes were made but not by me". The willingness to abdicate ones mistakes is a human one. It's the lowest common denominator but it's there. Abusive addicts blame the drug, fatties blame McDonalds, Drive by shootings are blamed on gun mfgs. The list is endless.
vlad at November 9, 2010 11:53 AM
I live in the largest city in Canada. Very few people who live in this city grew up here, so a good conversation starter is 'where are you from?'
In Toronto, the majority of people have been here less than 4 years.
When you've ever been unemployed at anytime, do you worry about people perceiving you a lazy?
What kind of silly question is that? I think people think I'm "lazy" because my kid walks to school by herself but guess what, I don't give a rat's arse. You can't control what other people think. I know some lazy unemployed, both white and brown, and others who aren't lazy but just can't seem to find work. What's your point? A lot of welfare cases ARE lazy, believe me, I know. I believe in calling a spade a spade (wait, is that racist?)
Thag Jones at November 9, 2010 11:53 AM
Feebie, you are so thoughtful. Everything you've said here is right on.
Sam at November 9, 2010 12:38 PM
"Don't worry, it's just a girl."
Something else to remind me of Jesse Jackson's relief when the man following him is white.
"Whites hate other whites too, big fuck surprise for most."
Yeah, we all basically suck. How hard depends on who you ask. And it for sure isn't just us. It was all right for a Japanese man I know to marry the white girl he fell for, because according to him, he was born in the wrong part of Japan anyway. So, ya know. He's only going so far.
Pricklypear at November 9, 2010 12:41 PM
What about those areas in the south? You're thinking those have top notch public schools? Hell no.
"The neighborhoods with single mothers..." You said it all right there. Fucking DUH. That has nothing to do with "white privilege" that is women that can't or won't keep their legs closed.
I'll agree those programs are counter productive, but not necessarily racist. The impact falls the same way regardless of race.
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"Not everyone can get a scholarship" No, just the people who deserve one. What is the problem with that? Everybody does not need to go to college.
The elitist lib might look down on a plumber, but that plumber can make damn good money doing honest work, so what is the problem? You're not showing that this is somehow racist, after all we call "minorities" that for a reason, there aren't that many compared to the majority, what are they promoting when they're looking down on a white plumber? You're reaching for racism, with that one.
No, my parents did not inherent wealth. My father left the military as a SGT with a specialty in cryptography in the 1950s, (the military didn't pay squat even by the standards of the day back then) lived in a 1 bedroom apartment with his wife and my older brother, he lived on virtually nothing. But he went to school, he busted his ass and got a job working for NCR, which at that time made cash registers, kept a vintage one in the house to help me learn about money when I was small. He went on to remain with them when they were bought out by AT&T, he would eventually retire as a middle manager at the age of 67, and go on to start not one, but TWO small businesses, one an import export company with my uncle, specializing in moss coming out of South America, and another as a web design company. He remained in both businesses until finally retiring from the workforce at the age of 74, and he is still alive today with the woman he married almost half a century ago, in a comfortable suburban house in South Carolina, nearby my older brother and his wife, and my older sister and her husband. As my parents still live, I inhereted no wealth from them, I am building my own with constant investment and penny pinching. What I have instead gotten from my parents was a drive to work, an understanding of how money works (as it turned out it was a little incomplete, but a few blunders and I figured out the rest, essentially I was very well grounded though).
I myself joined the army 11 years ago, I am nearing completion on a double degree, own my own home, and still invest my pay very heavily in order to provide better for my future. I'm not rich yet, but in another 5 years, maybe. White privilege has given me nothing, everything I have, I studied for, I worked for, if the "white privilege" people talk about is opportunity, then it is not "white" but rather an "American" privilege.
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Sure there are other factors Feebie, but not a single factor can be solved by worrying about the privileges of somebody else. My good fortune to be born to parents with a sense of responsibility certainly gives me a better shot at "making it" than somebody born of a crack dealer and a 14 year old slut that drops out of school, but there is no guilt on my part over that, and there is no way to reduce my "privilege" that would increase that of the next person.
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I see your point MonicaP, and while it has its place, realistically speaking, males make physically better predators than females, nature designed us that way.
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And Feebie, its not privilege if you're doing better because your cultural way of life drives you to get it. It has nothing to do with race and everything to do with culture.
Robert at November 9, 2010 12:46 PM
"And Feebie, its not privilege if you're doing better because your cultural way of life drives you to get it. It has nothing to do with race and everything to do with culture."
So you take an average black person living in this country and you assume they have had the same cultural and life experiences as you have, right? Instead of acknowledging that for whatever reason (and by NO fault of your own, or no racist actions by you) that you seem to have had things differently and perhaps a better starting out point because of living in the neighborhood you lived in, learning in the school district you lived in, coming from a two parent home, not having drug dealers on your corner, or having it reinforced to you, on an hourly basis by the government (via affirmative action, welfare, food stamps) that your peeps aren't capable enough to survive without being dependent. That the only way out is to become some degenerate who raps about hood culture and ho's or become an athlete.
What role models did you have while going up?
Look, again, why are you getting so defensive. You all seem pretty eager to point out how blacks are so much different then you are and what they are doing WRONG. Could it be possible that from within your own microcosm there might be the slightest bit of self awareness that perhaps you (on average) may have had a better shot at success given the color of your skin? At all?
Just as good financial habits have been past down from generation to generation - do you not think that this might also be in play (intergenerational negative messaging) for blacks?
I am not saying this is anyones fault, that isn't what this is about. This is only about a sliver of awareness.
Feebie at November 9, 2010 1:18 PM
"The neighborhoods with single mothers..." You said it all right there. Fucking DUH. That has nothing to do with "white privilege" that is women that can't or won't keep their legs closed."
Oh DE-NIAL.
Is single motherhood higher amongst blacks or whites? Why? (Is it because the government uses our tax dollars to target a particular demographic into accepting a check every month for each child while they kick out the baby daddy? )
Feebie at November 9, 2010 1:30 PM
"The elitist lib might look down on a plumber, but that plumber can make damn good money doing honest work, so what is the problem? "
I agree. What happened to all the trade schools? Where did they go and why? They are much more affordable than a diploma from a 4 year, and your right, they can provide great opportunities to those who pursue that line of work. So my question. What happened to them and why is a 4 year diploma the only thing that seems to be reinforced (media, schools, teachers....) when not everyone can afford to go and it is such a great alternative?
Feebie at November 9, 2010 1:35 PM
I think the NAACP should refocus on other issues to help the black community such as black teen pregnancy/black single motherhood and black-on-black crime.
Good luck with that. Recall how much people like Bill Cosby are attacked when they simply tell the truth about such things.
Miguelito at November 9, 2010 1:37 PM
"A few years ago I was walking home at night, about 10 feet behind a young couple, maybe in their late teens. The woman looked behind her nervously, the man looked behind him, too, and then said, "Don't worry, it's just a girl."
It never occurred to me before that experience that, had I been born with a penis, I might have had to defend myself (verbally or physically) from a couple a little nervous about men walking behind them."
So you';re going to tell me you wouldn't be nervous if a man was following you down a dark street? How many mugging/robbery/rape victims had female perps? "Don't outsmart your common sense" is great advice.
"So you take an average black person living in this country and you assume they have had the same cultural and life experiences as you have, right? Instead of acknowledging that for whatever reason (and by NO fault of your own, or no racist actions by you) that you seem to have had things differently and perhaps a better starting out point because of living in the neighborhood you lived in, learning in the school district you lived in, coming from a two parent home, not having drug dealers on your corner, or having it reinforced to you, on an hourly basis by the government (via affirmative action, welfare, food stamps) that your peeps aren't capable enough to survive without being dependent. That the only way out is to become some degenerate who raps about hood culture and ho's or become an athlete."
You've done a great way of listing the ways black people screw themselves and their kids, but failed to list how it could possibly be whitey's fault.
momof4 at November 9, 2010 1:38 PM
Defensive much?
All I did was point out that you expend considerably more effort and vitriol attacking right-wing targets than you do left-wing targets.
You merely tsk at Farrakhan and Wright (extremists) while you rant against Beck and O'Reilly (hyperbolic commentators). You openly mock the miscues of Republicans, yet are relatively silent about similar idiocies emanating from the mouths of Democrats. You do acknowledge the gaffe, but rarely subject a left-wing gaffe to the same level of righteous anger you reserve for the right side of the political spectrum.
You denigrate the Tea Party as "repackaged Republicans" and demand that a loose-knit association collectively condemn any "Obama = Hitler" or "Pelosi = Hitler" symbology at its rallies while excusing all "Rush = Hitler" or "Palin = Hitler" symbology at the left-wing Rally to Restore Sanity as satire. You argue that the right-wing Tea Party started the " = Hitler" protest motif, but ignore its presence as an accepted protest motif in the leftist anti-Bush rallies that prominently featured "Bush = Hitler" symbology.
And I suggested that if you want people to perceive you as an independent that you do more than just insist you're an independent and agree when it's obvious that a liberal's behavior crossed the line; that you make an effort balance out the frequency and intensity of your rants.
Conan the Grammarian at November 9, 2010 1:42 PM
"You've done a great way of listing the ways black people screw themselves and their kids, but failed to list how it could possibly be whitey's fault."
Ummm, I said above several times it wasn't about it being our fault or whiteys fault. The Invisible Knapsack and this class is only about acknowledgement, not assignment of the blame.
You take ANY group of people and subject them to years of slavery (yes, they were sold into slavery by their own), while being denied certain human rights...then once they start to recover slap them down with segregation, give them government handouts.... you see where this is going.
It just so happens that this is the history of blacks in this country - not whites. And if things can be passed down from generation to generation (business sense, work ethics...or whatever) what do you think - with our governments involvement, our tax dollars, our voting in and supporting democratic welfare policies, etc etc etc what do you think that will create?
Its about ACKNOWLEDGEMENT (example: "huh, wow, that's interesting I never thought about it like that - they MAY have a point) - not about FAULT. Fault and blame and guilt and Race Cards are the reason why people won't admit their privilege.
Feebie at November 9, 2010 1:44 PM
I took a former boyfriend with me to go apartment hunting one time and he was wondering why I wasn't interested in the apartments on the ground floor because they were much cheaper. It never occurred to him that as a woman, I walk differently in this world (from a safety standpoint).
Here's what most women know that men don't. Most of us will not rent a room on the ground floor of an apartment complex, especially a large one in a metropolitan area. Why? Easier for your house to get broken into and you are at a higher likelihood of being stalked and raped during that crime.
Most law enforcement personnel will tell you this too.
Does that mean that I need to punish men? No. Does it mean I should get a discount for an apartment on the top floor...No. Does it mean people should feel sorry for me? No. Is it ANYONES fault this is the way things are? No. Hell no.
But here's the deal, my boyfriend actually said to me: Wow, it NEVER crossed my mind that you, as a woman have to think about these things and spend extra money if you choose to be precautionary and keep yourself safe.
That was SO huge. That's all I wanted. Acknowledgement. See?
Feebie at November 9, 2010 1:55 PM
So you';re going to tell me you wouldn't be nervous if a man was following you down a dark street? How many mugging/robbery/rape victims had female perps? "Don't outsmart your common sense" is great advice.
I agree completely: I would cross the street and duck into a store if I saw a man who appeared to be following me down the street, and I have. And that's my point. I'd never been on the other end of that suspicion before, and the view made everything look different.
It just so happens that this is the history of blacks in this country - not whites. And if things can be passed down from generation to generation (business sense, work ethics...or whatever) what do you think - with our governments involvement, our tax dollars, our voting in and supporting democratic welfare policies, etc etc etc what do you think that will create?
Thank you, Feebie, for pointing out something people often dance around or ignore outright: that the problems faced by blacks and other groups in this country didn't spring fully formed from the head of Zeus. It wasn't like everything was fine until one day Democrats decided to give black people free money for making babies. Doesn't mean we need to continue giving them free money for making babies, but acknowledging that racism got people to where they are today is not the same as coddling them.
MonicaP at November 9, 2010 2:03 PM
"What happened to all the trade schools?"
I don't know about anyplace else, but they took ours and blended it into the university. They call it "The College of Technology". I guess Vo-Tech wasn't PC enough. Plus the U gets a chunk of change.
Pricklypear at November 9, 2010 2:08 PM
"They call it "The College of Technology"."
Right, and it probably costs nearly the same (relatively speaking) as getting a 4 year diploma. So if you were born into poverty, and didn't become 2pac, or Walter Payton...chances are....where you gonna end up? And why is that?
Feebie at November 9, 2010 2:12 PM
Me, was never racist even though I encountered alot of discrimination from within the more privileged groups of various asian subraces in one of another racist asian country.
So, what would you do if you grow up with racist inferior asians who became more racist when they have the upper hand? Much as I hated people being racist and discriminatory, I hated even more when those asian racists did not earn their nonwhite privilege.
WLIL at November 9, 2010 2:14 PM
I'm not feeling well today so I'd like to let all of Feebie's comments on this topic speak for me today. Thanks Feebs! Great job!!
Kristen at November 9, 2010 2:15 PM
"Can we start slamming those jerks at the Alzheimer's Association being ageist?"
And Monica, thanks so much. I laughed so hard I actually snorted coffee through my nose! I'm so enjoying today's topic!
Kristen at November 9, 2010 2:17 PM
All of this is meaningless without an operational working definition of white cultural supremacy- what it is and how it works.
Bear1909 at November 9, 2010 2:32 PM
Many people misjudged socalled racist and socalled racism and misused the word the racism to belittle innocent people who in reality never practiced any form of racism in their whole life.
WLIL at November 9, 2010 2:35 PM
Racist? Misogynist? White privilege? I'm just wondering: who are we to put labels on people? All of you are arguing about all this but I'm wondering who gives you the right to judge and label people just because they don't believe the same thing you do?
In this day and age, with everyone hiding behind "free speech", can't we say and do whatever the f--k we want? Thats what all of you wanted. Right? Well, you got what you wanted.
White privilege? Yup, thats me. And damn proud of it. Screw everyone else. I could care less what all the "social justice" activists say. Screw them. I'll take my white privilege and laugh all the way to the bank.
Racist? Yup, thats me. I don't want to live around minorities. Even though they all want to live in my white neighborhood so badly, if you believe what all the "progressives" say about dversity. Sure...we're all one big melting pot aren't we? All those folks just love white people so much they want to move in next door to them.
And I love how my kid, who is so color blind he does not know what the term racist is, is now starting to see that the kids pushing him around and hitting him on the playground are what he calls the "brown people" bussed in from the city to our white privileged neighborhood. And that the reason my school district, which is the best in the state, is failing the NCLB because of certain "groups" of students.
I see more racism toward white people in the Obozo administration than I have ever see in my life.
So. I'm a racist and I guess lets throw in a woman-hater. And I earned my white privilege and I can do whatever I want. Free speech baby! All you progressives go screw yourselves.
mike at November 9, 2010 2:40 PM
It is not fair to imply everything bad in life is related to racism or socalled racism. But then life is not fair to everyone, with or without racism. That is life.
WLIL at November 9, 2010 2:53 PM
And it is not prejudice either when we have too many bad experience with the same group of people from similar colour. Having a real awareness of certain groups of people who have similar bad traits is not prejudice. Being wary of them or their alien way is not prejudice either. Protecting our vulnerable self and not want to mix with them is not racist either.
WLIL at November 9, 2010 3:18 PM
"Right, and it probably costs nearly the same (relatively speaking) as getting a 4 year diploma."
All I know is it was the Vo-Tech when I went there. I got a "Certificate" of accounting because I didn't want to wait another year to be able to call it a "degree". Same topics, smaller paycheck. They say our accounting course was harder than what the U was teaching. I've heard the same thing about the culinary courses.
I got on with a Pell Grant. My husband went after it had changed it's name, and he was on some sort of government program attached to the lumber industry collapsing.
I never looked into what the cost would be otherwise, but I'm sure you're right.
Pricklypear at November 9, 2010 3:24 PM
We are talking about a system, a racist system that has been institutionalized that garners privileges to one group over another.
You know, I've heard this stated plenty of times over the years by people as if it is fact. I have yet to hear actual, factual proof given to back up this claim though. It's always assumptions or falling back on the usual, "well, you're just racist," or even better, "you can't see it because you're white."
Miguelito at November 9, 2010 3:30 PM
That just proved that living in a multicultural society can turned out to be one of the most unhappy and most horrible experience
WLIL at November 9, 2010 3:38 PM
Is it my imagination or have they taken down the "white privilege" articles?!
Thag Jones at November 9, 2010 3:50 PM
Miguelito, you are in LUCK! Because Feebie laid it all out for you up-thread. But you'll have to pull your head out of your nether-regions first....
Sam at November 9, 2010 4:01 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TG4f9zR5yzY
Gspotted at November 9, 2010 4:01 PM
"What happened to all the trade schools?"
Much of that died out (though not completely) because some (mostly liberals) decided that everyone should have a college education whether it made sense or not. Look at the push to get everyone into college, even Jerry Brown, while campaigning here said that the CA UC/CSU system had enough money to accommodate everyone that qualified (never mind that this is completely untrue, from just a facility viewpoint, not just monetary if you ask me). Too many people don't stop to think if it even makes sense for every single person to go to college.
I do have a cousin in MA that went the trade route to become an electrician and he makes pretty good money. Was out making money a couple years before his peers that went to college. He knew he'd never cut it in college, so he looked at his options. Unfortunately, very few seem to actually do that these days.
Miguelito at November 9, 2010 4:01 PM
Sam @4:01PM
Bite me.. excuse me for actually spending time reading the replies and not being done yet when I posted that.
Everything is still wishy-washy, historic reasons that are gone at this point anyway. I still don't see how the system, today, is institutionally racist.
If we're specifically talking the still-existing welfare setup: Do I want to stop paying people to remain single with multiple children? Sure, but it's not designed with race in mind, but supposed to be aimed at eliminating poverty. As others pointed out though, giving handouts doesn't fix this anyway.
Miguelito at November 9, 2010 4:06 PM
RE: Miguelitos post...
Correct, and what group is impacted more negatively by these decisions - by the inability to learn trades at affordable schools? Whites? Or blacks?
Do you see it yet?
Feebie at November 9, 2010 4:07 PM
I think everyone should have White Privilege, regardless of skin color. There--problem solved, without putting up so much as one billboard.
Tom at November 9, 2010 4:14 PM
"What about areas in the South, where there was segregation and that that segregation - while not enforced by law still exists? "
Let me tell you something about that. Some years ago, there was a proposal being pushed hard in Alabama by the AEA (Alabama chapter of the NEA), the NAACP, and other groups. It would basically require the higher-income counties to raise their property tax rates and then turn the extra revenue over to the state, which would then redistribute it to the poor counties in south Alabama.
Someone in Montgomery had the poor grace to point out that said poor counties had, by far, the lowest property tax rates in the state. Most of the wealthy counties, in contrast, had among the highest rates. Representatives of the higher-income counties stated that they wouldn't vote for the proposal unless there was a provision requiring any poor county to raise its property tax millage to a minimum rate in order to participate.
That's where the proposal died. The poor counties absolutely refused to do anything to help themselves. They just wanted to see if they could get something for nothing.
Cousin Dave at November 9, 2010 4:17 PM
It strikes me that a Phd at Wellesley Collage is pretty darn "privileged". Perhaps Dr. McIntosh might want to spend a little time contemplating the notion of an exclusive college for women from wealthy families. I'd take her just a little more seriously if when called on Wellesley to open its doors to poor men of all races.
The median household income at Wellesley is north of $120k/yr.
SteveM at November 9, 2010 4:21 PM
As you might expect from the household income figures, Wellesley has fewer blacks than anywhere outside a Klan convention.
SteveM at November 9, 2010 4:24 PM
"That's where the proposal died. The poor counties absolutely refused to do anything to help themselves. They just wanted to see if they could get something for nothing."
I am not talking about redistribution of wealth (theft). I am not talking about getting something for nothing, or people who won't help themselves. They are completely relevant as far as a solution, but as a white person, there ain't one damn thing I can do to change it, and I certainly don't think me driving into town like "Miss Daisy" is going to elicit a warm welcome.
What I can do? Acknowledge my white privilege and be a smart voter (and consumer) and do my best to not participate in it. Also I can articulate racism as I see it and as I've had it explained to me by non-whites. That's it.
I don't need to criticize anyone here or judge them in order to look at myself and say, ya - you know what, if my skin had been a few shades darker I may have had some different life experiences come at me that may have made things just a little more difficult because of it.
Feebie at November 9, 2010 4:27 PM
>"I'm a woman, and I'm not up in arms that prostitution stings target women."
They don't target women. Many (most) prostitution stings target the male "customers".
SteveM at November 9, 2010 4:30 PM
Most of those who decry the racism of race hustlers are under the delusion that said hustlers want to improve race relations but are misguided. Nothing could be further from the truth. They want racial conflict, it justifies their existance.
TBlakely at November 9, 2010 4:41 PM
>"Examples of white privilege that I can think of: not having to worry about being stripped-searched on an airplane."
It's pretty darn difficult to get strip-searched, on or off an airplane. And being white does not factor into it one way or the other.
SteveM at November 9, 2010 4:43 PM
Awareness and acknowledgement of white advantage on the part of whites will not help a single black kid get outta Compton.
Suppose you get run over by a drunk driver & wake up in a hospital bed with both your legs broken in a dozen places. It's 100 % the fault of others that you are in such a terrible situation - the drunk driver first & foremost, but also the justice system for not locking him up & taking his license away for good the last time the scumbag got caught. But it's 100 % your responsibility to get yourself out of that bed & learn to walk again. Society can help you by providing quality medical care, but unless you yourself make a maximum effort, then you will never stand on your own two feet again. And unless blacks themselves make a maximum effort to get out of the black underclass, they never will. No matter how many well-intentioned white folks sit through white privilege awareness classes.
Martin at November 9, 2010 4:46 PM
The white privilege stuff has been removed from the Web page. For the moment, it remains on the Google cache here. Those interested in the issue should save the cache or a screenshot.
gs at November 9, 2010 4:46 PM
"I don't need to criticize anyone here or judge them in order to look at myself and say, ya - you know what, if my skin had been a few shades darker I may have had some different life experiences come at me that may have made things just a little more difficult because of it."
I get the impression that you've had a life without many difficulties. Congratulations. That's nothing to be ashamed of. But please don't project your own experiences onto all white people. Plenty of us grew up poor an/or in broken homes, and your pretending we've all led identical privileged lives is annoying.
SteveM at November 9, 2010 4:48 PM
"Awareness and acknowledgement of white advantage on the part of whites will not help a single black kid get outta Compton."
Awareness and acknowledgment of the mythical "white advantage" won't help a single poor white kid either.
SteveM at November 9, 2010 4:51 PM
SteveM - My life without difficulties? You don't know me and don't read here much. I don't like playing the victim.
What I do know is that on top of the hand I was dealt, I didn't have a darker color of skin to contend with.
Feebie at November 9, 2010 4:56 PM
The notion that having a darker color of skin is something which one has to "contend with" in Canada or America in the 21st century is simply ludicrous.
There is a massive and elaborate system of preferences built into "the system" with the explicit aim of giving a leg up to those with the darker colored skin.
You watch too much TV and not enough life.
SteveM at November 9, 2010 5:05 PM
"Did your parents inherent wealth? Did their parents? Did you? Probably a good start, eh?"
A pretty revealing string of questions, I'd say. For many of us the answers are no, no, no, and no. I grew up a good deal poorer than those kids in Compton.
SteveM at November 9, 2010 5:09 PM
Haven't read all the comments yet, but here's something that's always stuck in my memory, courtesy of the gay composer Ned Rorem:
"Black Pride and Gay Pride are dangerous slogans, like White Pride or Straight Pride. Gay and black are not achievements but accidents of birth. One must not be ashamed, but that's not the same as being proud. Pride should lie only in what one does with one's blackness or gayness. Even so, has a straight or a white ever done anything to be proud of as a straight or a white?"
lenona at November 9, 2010 5:09 PM
Feebie,
Exactly what choices will you be making to put an end to your white privilege? Like not shopping at Walmart, giving up your job to a person of color, foregoing a raise at work so that your minority co-workers can have it? You have spent the day telling us how we need to recognize our "privilege" but have thus far failed to tell us HOW we are privileged. I am really excited to hear how EXACTLY you plan to unpack your bag. No generalizations please! You believe this is real actionable state of affairs and we all want to know what your plans are in detail. Thanks!
Sheepmommy at November 9, 2010 5:15 PM
Also, from "Queen bee moms & kingpin dads," 2007, by Rosalind Wiseman:
"Let me give you a concrete example. If you're a white parent of a teenage son who drives, have you ever sat down with him and told him what he should and shouldn't do when pulled over by a police officer? Probably not. In contrast, every black parent with whom I've spoken—no matter their socioeconomic status—carries the fear that the police will assume the worst about his or her child and act accordingly. In fact, it's common for black organizations to sponsor programs called 'Driving While Black' for their sons and daughters for just this reason. Black parents teach their sons to immediately place their hands on the steering wheel so the police won't assume they have a gun."
lenona at November 9, 2010 5:19 PM
"...isn't feminism supposed to be about equal treatment for all, not special treatment for people with vaginas?"
Oh, Amy. Equal treatment for men is so bourgeois. You just haven't thought critically about the subject. You need to have your consciousness raised.
/sarcasm
Nate Whilk at November 9, 2010 5:19 PM
Thag's earlier comment reminded me of what Barbara Ehrenreich said in her book "Nickel and Dimed" - that white parents are fools if they think their kids don't notice when they only hire people of a certain color to do their drudge work. She gave the example as told by the late poet Audre Lorde, in 1982:
"I wheeled my two-year-old daughter in a shopping cart through a supermarket in Eastchester in 1967, and a little white girl riding past in her mother's cart calls out excitedly, 'Oh look, Mommy, a baby maid!' And your mother shushes you, but does not correct you, and so 15 years later, at a conference on racism, you can still find that story humorous. But I hear your laughter is full of terror and disease."
lenona at November 9, 2010 5:31 PM
Bitch came at me with that crap the other day - I told her I was white and proud and her daddy was white and if anyone was playing the system, it was her with her PhD due to affirmative action. I will not take this crap lying down.
KMarx at November 9, 2010 5:33 PM
Rosalind Wiseman is very much a child of privilege. I'm not saying there's anything inherently wrong with that, but it would be nice if she did not go around presuming to understand the lives of people who were unable to afford Occidental College.
And how many black parents has Wiseman spoken to? Her maid?
SteveM at November 9, 2010 5:37 PM
And, from another thread I posted to:
From Pollitt's book "Reasonable Creatures" (the essay is "On the Merits"):
"As long as we're talking about white men competing with each other, we tacitly acknowledge that we live in a realistic world of a Balzac novel, a world in which we know perfectly well that Harvard C's beat A's from Brooklyn College, in which family connections and a good tennis serve never hurt, and sycophancy, backstabbing, and organizational inertia carry the undeserving into top jobs every day of the week. Add women and blacks into the picture, though, and suddenly the scene shifts. Now we're in Plato's Republic, where sternly impartial philosopher-kings award laurels to the deserving after nights of fasting and prayer. Or did, before affirmative action threw its spanner into the meritocratic works."
(end of excerpt)
The rest of her essay is very much worth reading.
And, I have a dear close relative who may or may not have had to overcome the hurdle of affirmative action now and again. However, it has never occurred to me to feel sorry for him because of that, not just because he's more ambitious than any other relative I can think of at the moment, but because he's had plenty of advantages in life, including being white.
And, as it happens, he's doing quite well right now.
lenona at November 9, 2010 5:49 PM
Perhaps the notion of "white privilege" is a gigantic social studies experiment from your average community college aggressively progressive Socialism department in the spirit of Stanley Milgram that was originally designed to prove a point, but is getting wildly out of control.
If I wanted to give a predominantly lily-white bunch of kids from the suburbs a taste of what it's like to be stereotyped, this would drive home the point. The trouble is that someone either forgot the safeword or started making money with it by hitting the lecture and publishing circuit and conveniently forgot to end the experiment.
I had enough trouble getting shut of that Original Sin nonsense; now there's something else I'm guilty of due to an accident of birth? A wave of the middle finger and a hearty hi-yo-FU to the anarchists who thought up this crap for a buck or two.
fiftyville at November 9, 2010 5:58 PM
An update:
http://www.edmontonsun.com/news/edmonton/2010/11/09/16057221.html
Following a flood of complaints to City Hall, all of the white privilege language was pulled.
Martin at November 9, 2010 6:04 PM
This is mostly directed at Feebie...
You make such good points that you are very nearly refuting yourself.
Everything you say applies to PRIVILEGE. None of it applies to race.
Yes, people are born into different situations. Do you _really_ think that poor white kids have some "privilege" that Barak Obama's children lack?
The better schools, better neighborhoods, better role models, better culture is all race-neutral.
I've read the book. My partner was forced to take a similar class in college (which is how I got access to the book). It's not total garbage, but if you think it's not about assigning blame and racism-mongering, you weren't paying attention. I recommend reading it, again.
Being aware of one's privileges and being thankful for - not guilty over - them is called "humility". It's not rare outside metropolitan areas.
mrsizer at November 9, 2010 6:10 PM
Posted by: Kristen at November 9, 2010 6:12 AM
Tell the American Lung Cancer Society that they must fund breast and pancreatic cancer. Tell the Juvenile Diabetes Research Institute that they must fund for adult onset diabetes. And stop all of these scholarships.
This is a really bad argument. Nobody says that a research/health care targeted to a specific disease is wrong. What is wrong is to limit general health services to specific members of society. Nobody would complain if a foundation offers only gynecological health care, but restricting access to general health care to women is wrong. Should people with heart problems be refused simply because of their XY chromosomes? Similarly, a foundation offering prostate cancer screening shouldn't be objectionable, but offering health care services only to men is wrong. The bottom line is if you find it objectionable when you flip the sexes or skin colors, then it is wrong.
This is the sad truth: if you only offer health services to white people only or to men only, you'll hear charges of racism or sexism, but not if it's the other way around. It simply means those not objecting is not as racism-free nor sexism-free as they think.
There are scholarships for Italian Americans, Black Americans, for people of Latino descent, etc.
There shouldn't be. You should be proud of your heritage, but such scholarships perpetuate the notion that skin color matters. It would be less objectionable if the scholarship is targeted to within a segment of community in need. The community could be a low-income neighborhood whose majority is black, but every member of the community who meets the requirement should be eligible to apply.
Faberge at November 9, 2010 6:11 PM
And by the way, since tall, fit, young, good-looking people are more likely to be hired than short, portly, over-50, showing-their-age people and I've been out of work for 4 years now:
[point and shout] "All you tall people are guilty of tall privilege!"
[point and shout] "All you fit people are guilty of fit privilege!"
[point and shout] "All you young people are guilty of young privilege!"
[point and shout] "All you good-looking people are guilty of good-looking privilege!"
Hey, whaddaya know, I feel better!
fiftyville at November 9, 2010 6:12 PM
Two post-scripts:
1) Excellent comment thread. Thanks to our hostess!
2) I know of several major companies that, during this recession, laid off only white males to avoid lawsuits. That's not white privilege. (Obviously I cannot name names, but I know the people who were asked to do the firing and the instructions they were given.)
mrsizer at November 9, 2010 6:13 PM
"he's had plenty of advantages in life, including being white."
Is there a chance that any of you "being white is an advantage" people will ever describe in concrete terms exactly what you think these advantages are?
Pollitt, like Wiseman, is Jewish - a group of people who are poorly situated to lecture the rest of society on the evils of privilge.
SteveM at November 9, 2010 6:15 PM
Perhaps, it is time the nonwhites blame their own coloured people for all the difficulties that they encountered in life rather than on the colour of their skin?
WLIL at November 9, 2010 6:20 PM
Conan: You denigrate the Tea Party as "repackaged Republicans"
Which they are. They are simply the most puritanical branch of Republicans. And so much their vaunted concerns about keeping us within our means. Rand Paul, just like his father, tiresomely rails against earmarks...unless their for his own district. One word for the Tea Party voters who backed this candidate...SUCKERS! Man, did he play you for fools.
Conan: demand that a loose-knit association collectively condemn any "Obama = Hitler" or "Pelosi = Hitler" symbology at its rallies while excusing all "Rush = Hitler" or "Palin = Hitler" symbology at the left-wing Rally to Restore Sanity as satire.
It is satire. It showed the Hitler moustaches on Republican icons as a way of satirizing the Hitler stylization that Tea Partiers employed at their rallies. The caption on the sign was, "Are you afraid yet?" is mocking the idea that placing a Hitler moustache on Obama should now much us concerned or afraid of him.
Surely, you couldn't have missed that.
Also I'd like to point out that the very topic of the thread was about Nazi symbolism employed at the Restore Sanity rally? I should not point out that it's satire? I should also not point out the hypocrisy in being indignant over the use of Nazi symbology used at Tea Party rallies? Use of which not satirical. Or if it was, I'd consider myself enlightened if you would explain that to me.
The dismembered Glenn Beck head was the most apalling item I saw at the Restore Sanity rally. I'm no fan of Beck's, but I wouldn't want him to come to a gruesome death.
Patrick at November 9, 2010 6:20 PM
There shouldn't be. ... The community could be a low-income neighborhood whose majority is black, but every member of the community who meets the requirement should be eligible to apply.
Are you saying that people who fund these scholarships shouldn't be allowed to do as they please with their own money? What if they really don't care whether whitey gets an education? Does funding a minority scholarship really hurt white people or just not help them? And if we're going to go all rugged individualist on this, why do we care?
MonicaP at November 9, 2010 6:23 PM
Did anyone notice the all-knowing, high-n-mighty, all-diverse racismfreeedmonton.ca website has a woman on the home page wearing a fatah (hyper-bigoted, mass murdering faction in the middle east, that has never been racist or bigoted or murdering enough for Hizballah) scarf? You remember that scarf -- the terror-chic accessory that has become almost as cool as the mass-murdering Che image on every vegan t-shirt at a G-8 riot. WTF.
Jack at November 9, 2010 6:31 PM
Is there a chance that any of you "being white is an advantage" people will ever describe in concrete terms exactly what you think these advantages are?
OK, I'll give it a shot.
Being born a white (fucking adorable, if I might say) baby meant I had rich white people lining up to adopt me, even at 3 years old and out of foster care, with a minor drug issue to my credit. I got placed with a middle class white family that gave me plenty of food, clothing and a stable two-parent home.
They were able to afford private grade school and high school so I could stay out of the local public schools, which were rife with issues. They were also able to help me pay for 1/3 of college, with the rest of it coming from scholarships (that were still available to white people when I went to college) and loans so I didn't spend the rest of my life in debt. My degree helped me get a good job out of college and control my financial future.
I was adopted by foster parents who continued to take in foster kids. The black and Puerto Rican kids who came in and out of our home did not fare as well.
MonicaP at November 9, 2010 6:36 PM
Why doesn't anyone over there draw attention to the fact that all the white privilege endowed on those who are able to play for the Edmonton Oilers still hasn't seemed to pay off already one month into the season if they look at the standings!
Christopher Bolling-Georgoff at November 9, 2010 7:05 PM
"You watch too much TV and not enough life."
I dont have cable.
Racism is the system that guarantees legitimate access to wealth, privilege and power sanctioned by the state to one group while it restricts it (directly or indirectly) to another (or determines who is legit, and who is not so people either conform to it or they don't) - based on race. This also applies to affirmative action.
There is not much to do about white privilege except acknowledge that it exists and that I most likely have benefited from it (Sheepmommy - I've explained this in various postings above - the details - they don't call it invisible for nuthin, but try reading it again).
Actively, I am sure to never cast a ballot for a progressive democrat who supports welfare, affirmative action, or other social programs that impact non-whites negatively in greater numbers - this includes Obamacare, which most certainly will have negative consequences for blacks. On the flip side, I would certainly be for challenging corporate policies that will choose minorities over white males (that is racism too).
I do not send money to organizations, institutions or corporations that fund the DNC or any other charity that is inherently racist. That includes anyone that pays the Al Sharptons, Jesse Jacksons or Bill Ayers (communism is another brand of racism) fees to speak. These are marxists rats that make money off of exploiting blacks and minorities all the while telling them how they have no power to do anything about their situations - which just reinforces this system.
I also listen when my non-white friend needs to vent to me about her concerns (without offering my advice) that if she puts her real name on her resume (e.g. LaShawndra) that if she doesn't get the job that it MAY be because of the color of her skin (it may not be, but it will always be a thought that passes through her mind - and that is something I never experience) but if she puts her middle name (e.g. Alice) to get in for the interview they may think she is a liar when it doesn't match up to her application.
I expect that the material I bring up will cause strife with some people. I get that. But before you get all defensive and start charging at me...perhaps you should just sit with the information objectively before doing so.
The fact is, if you are white - you DON'T know what it is like to be black. Have a little humility.
Feebie at November 9, 2010 7:10 PM
Actually MonicaP, it is my understanding that many public adoption agencies are reluctant to let white families adopt children of color. The thinking is that whites can't teach black children how to be proud of being black. There is a lot of pressure on black children, especially those from middle class homes, to act authentic.... Usually this means adopting the some of the more negative aspects of the culture. So again, how is any of this about the white system abusing it's privilege.
Sheepmommy at November 9, 2010 7:10 PM
Instead of worrying about White Privilege, I think so-called "oppressed people" need to own their Victim Privilege
Sweating Through Fog at November 9, 2010 7:10 PM
I also object to the competition between these minorities who claim to be the most discriminated against class of all, and that everyone else has it so easy compared to them.
Equally sickening are the non-minorities competing to get to the top of "who is the most offended by racism and therefore the most enlightened person on the planet" contests. The absurd lengths these people will go to in order to demonstrate their political correctness is sickening. Face it, we all know racism when we see it, so let's just be against it and be done with it. No need to try and outdo anyone!
Pirate Jo at November 9, 2010 7:19 PM
Actually MonicaP, it is my understanding that many public adoption agencies are reluctant to let white families adopt children of color.
This is true. My adoptive mother was discouraged from adopting a Puerto Rican child because the agency felt she couldn't be a proper mother to a brown child. This confirms what you say AND what I say. It's not white racism as much as it is a flawed system, with multiple levels of racism coming from multiple angles, that leads to a system that frequently gives white people an advantage. As Feebie has said several times, it's not that white people need to hang their heads in shame over this. It's complicated. But it does exist. I certainly had an advantage being born white.
MonicaP at November 9, 2010 7:26 PM
"This is a really bad argument. Nobody says that a research/health care targeted to a specific disease is wrong. What is wrong is to limit general health services to specific members of society. Nobody would complain if a foundation offers only gynecological health care, but restricting access to general health care to women is wrong."
Oh Faberge, its really not such a terrible argument. Obviously you didn't read my earlier posts or maybe you're purposely trying to misunderstand my point. Cervical cancer is on the rise. There is a growing awareness that early detection saves lives. A woman with low income and no insurance will skip the cost of a Pap smear or Mammogram because the cost of those visits is probably way out of her reach. The charity is not restricting access to general health care. The charity is targeting low income women because apparently there were studies done that show the increase of certain cancers and the correlation of death to those who cannot afford to be screened. You are more than welcome to fund a charity for men and prostate cancer. And in focusing on prostate cancer you will be excluding women but not because you are sexist but because women do not have a penis just as Maria Shriver is not excluding men to be sexist but because they simply do not have a vagina therefore do not have to worry about cervical cancer or the early detection of cervical cancer.
Kristen at November 9, 2010 7:59 PM
Feebie's comments started out so vague but irritated, that after about 10 posts from this person, I started reading less and less.
lenona makes a good point. Although, I remember hearing Juan Williams talk about the Professor Gates thing with the police, explaining how he was taught by his parents to talk to the police with respect. I thought to myself, "I'm white, and I was taught the same thing." Which I was. For a while, when my sister had a car with heavily tinted windows, she was pulled over by the police regularly for no particular reason. She's also white.
A lot of the "white privilege" on this thread seems to be more about having parents who had money or taught their kids properly. Ummmm, that's not necessarily related to color, is it? Actually, in some ways, isn't that an insult to all of the minority parents who do a good job raising their kids?
My parent didn't have much money, but they read to us when we were kids, they made sure we knew proper English and helped with learning math; they brought us up with good values. We went to college, got some scholarships, borrowed money for college, graduated and are doing ok.
KrisL at November 9, 2010 8:28 PM
I think white privilege is not treated as a special privilege and nothing racist about it. What I find it offensive is those various tribes of islamics and various tribes of privileged nonislamic asians who bestowed themselves too many special privileges, and became too draconian to people that they deemed are foreigners or not one of them.
WLIL at November 9, 2010 8:47 PM
As I glanced and skimmed over the many comments before me, I was enlightened and saddened at the same time. Being a black professional in a mainly white industry, being told that the people who are most successful in the field who will never progress and realizing that working hard doesn't always equal progression and accolades. I work in the legal field. There are very few blacks as partner in any law firm. Considering most hire 1/3 to 1/4 of minorities each year, it's disheartening to watch and see very few make it to the pinnacle.
Is this white privilege? I'm not sure. My life isn't a study, nor have I taken the time to write a study, but I have heard too many studies of black friends walking into an interview and noticably seeing the interviewer disappointed to the point where a real interview didn't exist - a few standard questions, then a quick exit - to move on to the next candidate.
How do you sustain blacks in a professional environment if they never make it past the interview? I'm not talking about Afffirmative Action, or any sort of quota, but the resume had been reviewed and determined that this person has the goods, only to realize the second they walk in the door that they weren't getting the job. Is this white privilege? I don't know. Most end up striking out on their own after finding out or determining themselves that upward mobility is impossible or limited. (I do have to add, that in the legal industry, this is almost as common for women.)
I wanted to throw out this article that came out this week: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/09/education/09gap.html?_r=1&hpw
Nikki G at November 9, 2010 9:24 PM
This topic just keeps repeating itself. It's one of those problems that will probably never be solved. On account of we all want to feel better than somebody else.
If we all eventually end up with the same caramel shade, the same texture of hair, and the same amount of money, we'll still find something to look down on in others, and somebody else to help us look down on them. Because as Amy pointed out on a different day and a different topic, there's the way things "ought" to be, and there's the way things are.
"Peel me a grape, Beulah..."
Pricklypear at November 9, 2010 10:11 PM
Amy forgets Jewish privilege. I'm in a technical field. It often seemed to me that I got advantage over others.
Of course back in the bad old days there used to be Jewish quotas.
M. Simon at November 9, 2010 10:15 PM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2010/11/09/vile_racist_cam.html#comment-1779636">comment from Nikki GNikki G, about the story, black women have the highest out-of-wedlock birth rate -- between 70 and 80 percent. Perhaps that has something to do with it?
Amy Alkon at November 9, 2010 10:26 PM
Do you _really_ think that poor white kids have some "privilege" that Barak Obama's children lack?
Yeah, are we really supposed to believe little white Suzie in the trailer park with the single mother is advantaged over the children of married, rich parents with Ivy League degrees because the latter have more melanin?
"white privilege" is so much bullshit. You may have been able to make a case for its existance before WWII, but in 2010, it simply does not exist. I've a white friend with a vaguely Hispanic-looking last name who keeps getting job interviews truncated when they realize they won't be able to check the "diversity hire" box on the forms the federal gov't requires. Some privilege!
George at November 9, 2010 10:49 PM
Bacon's Rebellion in 1676, where the cast system in the US originated places a good historical perspective and context to this subject.
Feebie at November 9, 2010 10:53 PM
The fact is, if you are white - you DON'T know what it is like to be black. Have a little humility.
Posted by: Feebie
Great point Feebie, but wouldnt it stand to reason if white people dont know what its like to be a minority, then minorites dont know what its like to be white? And as that IS the case, why do they presume to tell us what it is like?
MonicaP any 'racism' in the adoption feild is coming from minority action groups who justify their actions as preventing "white people from stealing our children"
Or as momof4 said an example of how minorites screw themselves over - still not an example of white privalge. In fact it seems had certian racists of a minority group not intervened into the adoption arena you would have had a very differnt life indeed.
One last thing folks, here is a list of words, try and guess what it is
Cracker
Gringo
Gubba
Gweilo
Honky
Haole
Ofay
Peckerwood
Roundeye
Mick
Paddy
Goombah
Greaseball
Wog
Wop
Heeb
Hymie
Kike
Heres a hint - they are 'racial' slurs against subsections or 'minorites' with white skin
lujlp at November 10, 2010 12:47 AM
@Mom of Four... It was a few years ago, I had gone on a few dates with a Jewish guy and he pointed me towards them to see. I forget which sites they were, but it was interesting to read. Now I've moved on to read extreme right wing sexist sites instead. It's not to insert sanity... not gonna happen... its more to see what people are saying.
@ Feebie - You make a good point about the generations of shit that black people have had imposed on them by outsiders... but they are hardly the only group who has had such problems. After all, the Irish were sold into slavery as well, and seem to have recovered. Do you have any thoughts as to what the difference might be?
NicoleK at November 10, 2010 4:26 AM
"but they are hardly the only group who has had such problems. After all, the Irish were sold into slavery as well, and seem to have recovered. Do you have any thoughts as to what the difference might be?"
My parents who are only in their sixties can remember a time when blacks were not allowed to sit at the same counter, drink from the same water fountain, and were mostly domestic workers. That is not ancient history. That is within the past 50 years. When buying a house 16 years ago, I was steered away from certain areas by the realtor because blacks lived there. When I sold my home and moved back to the town I grew up in, my kids were treated at school like circus acts because they knew black kids from their old neighborhood. The Irish did face discrimination when coming to America, but I don't think any group ever faced what blacks have faced. I'm not arguing the case for reverse racism or saying whites should be ashamed of their color. I'm not saying that there aren't black people who have made it far in this world because they had an internal drive. What I'm saying is that the scale is still not even despite what anyone wants to say to the contrary. Racism is alive and well in America. I don't know any white people that would say if they could trade it all in that they would become black. And please spare me the "I'd come back as Obama or Halle Berry lines." I don't understand why anyone would refuse to admit that there is a big difference.
Kristen at November 10, 2010 5:17 AM
"When buying a house 16 years ago, I was steered away from certain areas by the realtor because blacks lived there."
Ever think maybe she was steering you away from a higher crime area? Like it or not, largely minority areas have higher crime. If you want to go live there to make a point, feel free, but most people would WANT to be steered to lower crime areas by their realtor. It also makes a big difference in the schools, if you have kids. The school my kids go to is about 40% minorities. It's a great school. The schools in the area that are 70%+ minority are crappy (comparatively-there are no really crappy schools in round rock). So where you see racism, I see practicalities.
momof4 at November 10, 2010 5:26 AM
"The Invisible Knapsack and this class is only about acknowledgement, not assignment of the blame."
What good does acknowledging those things do, if one isn't looking for a solution. That class sounds like a great waste of time.
"Fault and blame and guilt and Race Cards are the reason why people won't admit their privilege."
I've admitted my "privilege"-if you want to call being raised by great parents privilege. My parents were the first in either family to go to college. Their parents were subsistance workers (farm and factory, respectively). ALL the kids in my generation are successful. Is that because we're white? No, it's because we work hard, and have for generations. I reject your "white privilege" argument soundly. It's a sorry-ass excuse for failure. I've gone into interviews where they sized me up, did a short one just for form, and that was that. It's LIFE, not racism. Deal with it and move on.
momof4 at November 10, 2010 6:01 AM
You take ANY group of people and subject them to years of slavery (yes, they were sold into slavery by their own), while being denied certain human rights...then once they start to recover slap them down with segregation, give them government handouts.... you see where this is going.
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There are many people of every colour who had similar experiences. Irish Catholics were brought to North America as 'indentured servants' the soft term we use to describe white slaves. Because Canada is closely linked with Britain the Irish did not enjoy equal rights here until forty years ago. A catholic could not teach in public school or become a police officer. The Irish in Ireland were treated cruelly and were suppressed up until very recently.
Let's not forget that the Jewish people were suppressed for thousands of years yet still managed to educate their children, own businesses and provide a stable family life for their children.
My point is that people have a choice. In Toronto we have an area with a lot of gang activity, it is a black neighbourhood with lots of crime. The mothers go on TV and cry about how their kids are dead because they live at Jane and Finch. But they chose to live there. You can rent an apartment anywhere in Toronto. You can find affordable housing if you look. No-one must live in a bad neighbourhood, they choose to live there. I was dirt poor when I moved to Toronto, I couch surfed for months while I looked for work and then saved for an apartment. I was poor but found an apartment in a decent family neighbourhood no problem. So why should I feel guilty or responsible because these people chose to raise their children in a gang area? There comes a time when people have to acknowledge that the problem is not with other people but with themselves.
Ingrid at November 10, 2010 7:27 AM
"What good does acknowledging those things do, if one isn't looking for a solution. That class sounds like a great waste of time."
Did you even read my first post?
RE: Irish, Catholics, (my heritage is Sicilian) and slavery other places and indentured servants here..yes, yes, yes. But we are talking about RACISM. RIght, so that is defined by RACE, or the color of ones own skin. This was done in the US after Bacon's Rebellion (read it if you don't believe me)a caste system was set up by the ruling elite because blacks and whites at the time were grouping together for common cause (against wealthy elitist landowners). There was no "white" before this Rebellion.
Before this time, there was no white, black, whatever. There are and were various different ways to categorize people and race was not one of them (and some blacks owned property too). IN the past and in most other countries this had always been according to wealth. Which is why Irish and Catholics, and Sicilians and Europeans could come over here and - once they started to accumulate wealth were able to move forward, up and out. It wasn't because of their SKIN.
Bacon's Rebellion. READ IT. READ ALL ABOUT IT.
Feebie at November 10, 2010 7:44 AM
"...Heres a hint - they are 'racial' slurs against subsections or 'minorites' with white skin"
Notice I didn't bring up slurs against blacks either. If you look at my definition of racism, then you can see that calling someone a name - while nasty, does not preclude them from creating wealth, obtaining power or being granted privilege. None of those words, have ever prevented me from getting a job. Owning property. Or being granted basic privileges, right? How about you?
People name call all the time. STicks and stones....which is why I didn't mention the slurs either.
Feebie at November 10, 2010 7:51 AM
Maybe if people stopped obsessing about race all the time, racism would become less of a problem. Just a thought, courtesy of Morgan Freeman.
RebeccaH at November 10, 2010 8:28 AM
Nikki the situation you describe seems like a potential example of plain-old racial discrimination.
My problem w/ 'white privilege' is twofold. Firstly I don't like being accused of racism preemptively. Secondly I think that it distracts from doing the real work towards addressing race issues.
By blaming everyone, no one is responsible. Racism arises from 'the system'. Honestly I think that 'white privilege' is something that's been concocted by diversity professionals in order to expand their franchise more deeply into corporate and institutional affairs.
For instance, in your example, how does a firm de-privilege its members? Would this even be legal? Should they attempt to privilege non-whites? Is that legal?
How to you modify 'privilege'? Who's granting these privileges in the first place, if we have no choice as to whether to accept them?
That's what I'm getting at. If there's active discrimination going on, that should be addressed as discrimination, not by waving it off as an unfortunate example of 'white privilege'.
Norm at November 10, 2010 8:36 AM
Can we get some people of color up in here? I want to hear their take on all this. What we need is a real discussion.
Obviously, whites come from many different economic backgrounds, just as minorities do. And, just like many people of color, many white people living in the US and Canada today do not have parents or grandparents that were born here. They came here with nothing & made their way.
California is something like the 3rd largest economy in the world, so while the rest of the US may have its race issues, I'm not familiar with them & I'm not addressing them. California usually paves the way, anyhow, in many reforms of law and thought.
In my community college students, I usually see an entirely different attitude from my US born students and foreign born students. Their attitudes differ toward academics and toward respecting their white teacher. My foreign born students are in the land of opportunity and are here to work hard, learn the language,and grab their dreams; many of my US born students, though they grew up speaking English, have poorer attendance and work habits, and seem to have lower self-esteem.
My foreign-born students are from India, Asia, Africa, and South America. They vary in experience and natural ability, but work very very hard. I have many successful US born African American students (I am in downtown and south LA, CA, by the way, a lot different I'm sure than Long Island), but those that are unsuccessful either are not surprised that they do not succeed and therefore become apathetic, or become resentful and blameful of the instructor rather than simply improve their habits.
I think a major problem in my local African-American community concerning those of low-income is their basic attitude. The media tells them they are disadvantaged, so they expect that they are, and expect things to be harder for them than for others. They have the legal opportunity to change things and succeed; what they need is the will. Many of my students have been homeless (or are currently), have addict parents, and have friends or loved ones who have been shot and killed, sometimes in front of their eyes. They have told me these things, and I understand that someone's life-view would be shadowed. We really need to change the attitude of a community; attitude, tragic life experience, and circumstance are the disadvantage, not race. It is a disadvantage to be poor. It is a disadvantage to live in a gang-ravaged neighborhood. It is a disadvantage to have parents who are addicts.
These are cross-cultural disadvantages, but there is a concentration of these problems in some African American neighborhoods. When young people don't have a parent to teach them good work and $ habits, and the successful people abandon the community, who is left to teach that kid? African American leaders who spend all their time blaming white racism may be good at getting elected (I'n not talking about Obama), but they are not focusing on what their communities really need: education.
There are thousands more African American lawyers, scholars, teachers, entrepreneurs, and doctors than there are African American sports and music stars. I blame political parties that benefit from racial divide (that's all of them), I blame the media that caters to a low common denominator (which includes very poor uneducated people of various races, and who like to blame other races for their problems), and I blame the community, including the African American community. The educated, rich African Americans (and there are a lot of them) need to do more outreach of the sort that shows young people HOW they can succeed. There is a really strong latino community feeling around here really pushing young latinos to educate themselves; there is not as much of that in the African American community, and if there is, it is not evident to me, an instructor.
Americans should change the "I got mine" attitude to "Let's get them their's." Charity of spirit is as important as charity of cash. You know, the whole, "Teach a man to fish" thang.
MOJO at November 10, 2010 9:02 AM
If you're a white parent of a teenage son who drives, have you ever sat down with him and told him what he should and shouldn't do when pulled over by a police officer? Probably not.
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That is absolute crap. My ex cut off his long blond hair because he was sick to death of getting pulled over by the cops. All of the long-haired guys I grew up with complained constantly about the cops harrassing them. You never ever hear about that in the media.
I have been searched at the border and in several airports, many times and long before 9/11. My white family, was pulled over at the border and searched when we were on our way to Disneyworld, they made me wake up my sleeping pre-schooler and take her in to the customs office. Neither my husband nor I have a police record.
Ingrid at November 10, 2010 10:40 AM
MonicaP, having rich white parents is not white privelege it is just having rich white parents. There are far more poor white people than rich.
Ingrid at November 10, 2010 10:48 AM
For all you cryin' bitches (of both sexes), the fact is that is has been, is, and always will be better to be a rich black woman than a poor white man. It ain't about race, and it ain't about sex (I hate that f'in word "gender") -- it's about MONEY! According to the race-baiters and feminists, OPRAH is impossible! How could she exist in a racist, sexist society determined to keep black folks and the "fair sex" down?
Jay R at November 10, 2010 12:05 PM
MonicaP, having rich white parents is not white privelege it is just having rich white parents.
Being born white was how I got those middle class parents. Had I been born black, with the way the system works, I would likely have been sent back to a negligent mother or spent the rest of my life in foster care.
A child born white in this country has a better chance of being born to two parents married to each other, which is an enormous advantage in growing up.
I don't feel bad about having the advantage of a stable, two-parent home, and none of this is to say that bad things don't happen to white people, too.
My ex cut off his long blond hair because he was sick to death of getting pulled over by the cops.
Your ex had the option of cutting his hair. It's not possible to be less black.
MonicaP at November 10, 2010 12:05 PM
"The fact is, if you are white - you DON'T know what it is like to be black."
I lived in Japan for five years during the 1970s. I think I can relate a bit better than you might want to admit.
MarkD at November 10, 2010 1:18 PM
"Your ex had the option of cutting his hair. It's not possible to be less black."
My 18 year old son has long hair and is in a band. Most people looking at him would swear he's a druggie based on his wannabe rock star style. He's a pretty clean kid and never gave me a day's worry. My very clean cut 16 year old is the one that gives me headaches. So yes, there are perceptions out there that are wrong, but as Monica pointed out, my son can cut his hair any time. I also don't worry about him getting shot by the police because of his long hair.
Kristen at November 10, 2010 1:19 PM
This is the definition of privilege, according to Websters.
a right or immunity granted as a peculiar benefit, advantage, or favor : prerogative; especially : such a right or immunity attached specifically to a position or an office.
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Now you may believe that whites have an unfair advantage, or even receive more favorable treatment by other whites, but that doesn't mean that they have been conferred a privilege.
Similarly blacks may experience frequent racial discrimination and face social stigma, but that doesn't establish a privilege for whites.
That's not what 'privilege' means.
I think that some people here are defending the term, thinking that this is necessary in order to defend the justifications for combating racism. But there's no reason to defend bad ideas just because they make claims on good ideas.
plausibilius at November 10, 2010 1:24 PM
"The fact is, if you are white - you DON'T know what it is like to be black."
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No, I don't know what it is like to be black but I do not what it is like to be denied housing, denied a job and to be physically attacked for being white. I know what it feels like to be denied entry to a friends house because his father refuses to have white people in his presence. I know what it is like to be denied entry to a nightclub because white people are not allowed. I also know what it feels like to be verbally abused and intimidated by complete strangers for being white. My friend was even denied help from a shelter for abused women because she was white (and it nearly cost her her life). So, it seems to me that shit happens because of your colour no matter what colour you are.
Ingrid at November 10, 2010 2:10 PM
Being born white was how I got those middle class parents. Had I been born black, with the way the system works, I would likely have been sent back to a negligent mother or spent the rest of my life in foster care.
MonicaP
Acctually by your own admission your white parents got a white baby because the adption aganecy refused to let them adopt a non white baby - a policy created, endorsed, advanced, and approved of by non white people
So technically your parents choice in which child to adopt was limited by minorities - how exaclty does having their choice taken away by minorites political action morph into white privilage?
lujlp at November 10, 2010 5:12 PM
"A child born white in this country has a better chance of being born to two parents married to each other, which is an enormous advantage in growing up."
Which is, again, the sole fault of the black people for not having this advantage themselves. Whites do not keep them from getting married. Whites do not keep them out of school. Whites do not keep them from getting a job, or condoms, or birth control pills, or ANYTHING that would improve their lot and that of their children. The only people keeping black people from doing anything at all are black people. Admitting that, and getting off their collective arses, is what will help. Not "acknowledging" that things are the way they currently are. Not blaming others for things being the way they are.
momof4 at November 10, 2010 5:56 PM
Christ, why don't you people do something worthwhile with your time? Get an education or something. Then you might not feel the need to bitch about how poor, poor you is being oppressed by the powerless underclass.
M. Krebs at November 10, 2010 6:03 PM
If the powerless underclass is so damn downtrodden, how did they manage to join a system that steals my money and gives it to them to sit around on their asses?
lujlp at November 10, 2010 6:27 PM
Oy, M4. So go ahead and say it...you feel your life would have been exactly the same, no different, if the only difference right now in your life was that you had a darker skin color. Go ahead, say it.
It would have been exactly the same.
It isn't about blaming anyone. Its about just what I said. You don't like hearing it. And why is that?
Did you read about Bacon's Rebellion yet?
Feebie at November 10, 2010 8:32 PM
Yes, if my parents were black, they still would have been them, and my life still would have been about getting educated to keep my options open. No different. I'm white, racists would have had no reason to keep mum around me, and I've never met one (of course, can't know people's thoughts, but do they really matter if the actions are acceptable?). There ARE good, married black parents out there, with successfully educated kids. They aren't that rare, the problem is the utter extreme the others go to. It makes the ones who take a different path all but invisible.
Does that cover it? My life would have been no different if I were black.
momof4 at November 11, 2010 6:05 AM
I did read about Bacon's rebellion. I don't see it as the watershed you do. Color wasn't particularly important in the louisiana/creole area either, while the french catholics were in control. Blood was more important, and there were plenty of free and even well to do blacks. That changed after the french lost control of the area. So what?
momof4 at November 11, 2010 6:08 AM
The color of skin, gender, sub-culture, is not something we actually have any choice over, and when we are all herded together not of these variables are significnt, unless we decide to become someones puppet and gang up because of the differences.
Now we are beginning to recognze we are all equal, or should be, and hopefully, with time we will all acheive a level of literacy that acknowledges it, however difficult it is to escape our origin, Mostly, we all want to do the right things, and, Affirmative Action is not among them, Biggotry, or racism has no place in an ethical, logical society.
Right or wrong literacy seemingly, mostly affects family size. The white community in america has 1,9 children per family. Our black communities double their poulation every 20 years, presently, Hopefully the future will change, before a deadly confrontation happens. I include native americans with the whites, since many of us have mixed native american heritage, a tiny sub-culture, who before 1200 had 10,000 tribes in north america, now we are less that 300.The indiginous native american subcultures are demographically better represented in the United States Military Service, than all others. We love our country, unfortunately we are subjected to racial disparity, and suffered a holocaust, unpublished, of a greater magnitude than any other genocide i known history, The buffalo soldiers played no small role.
The Gambino tribe, like vegas, runs the casinos, native americans come into play on the 3rd count, few homes are built near casinos, just for show, there are educational benefits for the few who finish high school, and don't get kicked out for being indian. most native american reservations are in badlands, and survival is dependent on federal food surplus. The native american male lives less than 50 years, mostly
jackie cox at November 11, 2010 6:41 AM
You won't hear argument from me over the property tax issue Dave. It comes as no surprise to me. People get what they pay for, and have no right to the things other people pay for, bottom line, end of story from my perspective.
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"You all seem pretty eager to point out how blacks are so much different then you are and what they are doing WRONG."
Ok, I'll bite. DUH. Because the ONLY thing that keeps anyone down for their entire lives anymore is the things they do WRONG. Yes I had a better start in life, but it was because that is how my parents wanted it to be, and so that was what they did, they set out to build a better life. Am I defensive? Not really, text does not always convey tone very well, but if I were to be speaking this aloud, my tone would sound contemptuous of the notion that my skin color had a role in things, and proud of what my parents accomplished.
"Just as good financial habits have been past down from generation to generation - do you not think that this might also be in play (intergenerational negative messaging) for blacks?"
THANKYOU for saying that. Absofreaking posofuckingtively without even the tinest shadow of a doubt. Where do you spend money, where do you save it, what is an asset, what is a liability, what will help you prosper, what will put you in poverty? Is anyone teaching this in inner city schools? I don't know, but I'd wager not, and I'd wager double or nothing that it isn't being taught in inner city homes either! The key is knowledge, my parents taught me much, and I sought out much more, money is a tool, and like most tools you either learn how to use it properly or safely or you might end up with the pointy end in places it shouldn't be.
Yammering about racial privilege is utterly without meaning, and can serve only as a justification for failure, a call to victimhood, a guilt trip, and/or a prelude to a plea for more federal dollars that won't solve any actual problems. If you want to see how much BUNK the idea of white privilege is, talk to a black immigrant some time. A few guys I've worked with over the years were from places like Nigeria, one guy, Latunde, (His nickname was Tuna) was a tight friend of mine, he came to the U.S. joined the military, was getting his citizenship and his college degree, he wasn't saddled with the idea that white folks should have any guilt, he just wanted to do better, last I heard he made Sergeant too and was getting ready to be a civilian and full U.S. citizen. He was doing things RIGHT, and he will thrive, the kid with a dad in jail and a mom living off the government has a lesser chance of success than the guy I worked with who came from much much less than the American born inner city kid, why? Because he had the right attitude, the drive, and eyes open for opportunity.
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And by the way Feebie, the choice still lies with the woman as to whether or not to open her legs, and whom for. She is the arbiter of her choices, not the government, though I will add that I agree the government policy of providing check sums based on the number of children does have a profound negative impact. Responsibility literally broken down means the ability to respond.
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As far as trade schools go, GOOD question, I think they've lost their luster because of a combination of cultural factors rather than by deliberate intent, but a better question I think is, how do we bring them back into the broad popular culture as an honorable source of education and path to employment?
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"It just so happens that this is the history of blacks in this country - not whites"
Sandlappers, indentured servants, those who didn't own land. Whites didn't all have ivory white homes and plantations. The total population of people who ever owned another person is in the single digit range, it simply cost way to much.
And look into the history of Chinese labor in the U.S. it was no better than that of blacks, right down to enforced segregation, which in their case was sometimes quite literally "underground". And lets not pretend the Native Americans were that well off either, or the Irish, or any average American factory worker. Blacks are not specially persecuted, yes they had the auction block, but that existed in the U.S. as an independent nation for less than a century. After that, blacks have no greater claim to victimhood than the chinese, the Indians, the Irish, or any other marginalized, abused, or exploited group of people, all of them suffered riots, discrimination, presumption of guilt, etc.
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I will agree that the policies that we put in place have a heavy role in the present circumstances, but Feebie you're assuming that blacks were living in unchanging cultural and economic circumstances comparable to today, but this simply isn't so. Segregation closed white institutions to blacks, so blacks created their own. There were black banks, shops, restaurants, and alllllll the things white people had, but black owned, black created, and serving the black community. Ironically, the fall of segregation opened the "black market" no pun intended, to the white market place, and most black owned businesses were essentially bought out or driven out of business.
The following pressure for public funds to make ammends and provide special treatment for minorities, certainly had a hand as well. But both the black departure from black owned businesses and the pressure for public money originated from which leaders again? Do I really have to name them?
You say it is about "Acknowledgement" but come on, really? What am I supposed to acknowledge? That my parents abjured handouts while somebody else's parents took them? That my parents taught me what I needed to know, while somebody else's parents didn't teach them much of anything?
What is this "acknowledgement" supposed to mean? Is it another empty gesture? Because that is what it sounds like to me. The fact is that while they "MAY" have a point, the truth is that they DO NOT. Sometimes the truth is somewhere in the middle, but this time, it isn't.
I do NOT acknowledge "white privilege" I acknowledge "monetary privilege".
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True, I don't know what it's like to be black, but what makes you think you know anything about what it is like to be a male, or that a black person knows what it is to be white?
This is another case of the grass being greener on the other side until you get there.
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Robert at November 11, 2010 11:57 AM
"If you want to see how much BUNK the idea of white privilege is, talk to a black immigrant some time....he came to the U.S. joined the military, was getting his citizenship and his college degree, he wasn't saddled with the idea that white folks should have any guilt, he just wanted to do better, last I heard he made Sergeant too and was getting ready to be a civilian and full U.S. citizen."
Great! Good for him, I see this a lot too. Which makes perfect sense, since he didn't grow up under the belief system that is reinforced to both whites and people of color here in the US. It makes perfect sense, actually and goes even further to prove the point I was making. "White" and "Black" was established and set up a long, long, time ago (in this country, based on SKIN color) where the majority of indentured European servants where categorized as "whites" and given just a little bit more than blacks (divide and conquer)because they along with blacks were fighting a common enemy - the ruling elite. The elites, scared of being hung, drawn and quartered (since there were so few, oppressing so many) had to find a way to divide them up (they chose skin color) and pit them against each other. And so the story goes and in addition, with slavery, with segregation...on and on. Generation after generation people were treated a certain way based on their skin color in THIS COUNTRY.
This black man from Nigeria didnt grow up and operate on a daily business with that same belief system because he wasn't RAISED here. He may have been subjected to another inequitable belief system, but not one that dictated it by the COLOR OF HIS SKIN. The truth is, he had no limiting factor or consciousness about his own skin color being in any way negative. Which brings us back to racism...because that is what we are talking about. Not classism, as you have so eloquently pointed out.
"True, I don't know what it's like to be black, but what makes you think you know anything about what it is like to be a male, or that a black person knows what it is to be white?"
Good question, I don't either. And that was all the "white privilege" thing was meant to SHOW people - because of all the incessant, ugly finger pointing (see M4 posts).
No more than you know what it is like to be female, or I know what it is like to be male. I believe the acknowledgement of white privilege (as I understand it and as it has been explained to me) is only meant as a tool allowing perspective into another HUMAN's culture and life experiences. To see something through their own eyes and what that might look like.
But everyone here just wants to jump on this like its some type of blame and shame (or that it is VILE - big overstatement that does nothing to add to productive conversations might I add). And no one is really interested in finding out anything about it - only jumping into narcissistic rages (M4!) about THEMSELVES and defend everything without a modicum of self reflection, or empathy until the bitter end. It's kinda gross.
Here is what I understand. This white privilege type conversations are meant to encourage a neutral forum where racism (the real deal) can be discussed from all perspectives, and all parties involved WITHOUT finger pointing, in a PRODUCTIVE manner. So everyone admits where they (intentionally or NOT) play a small role in this system. Personal responsibility on the other side.
If you don't see how psychologically, or humanistically this perspective or philosophy of discussing racial (highly charged issues) might help in such a discussion then maybe this isn't the class for you.
But then, Robert (et al), do you have better idea since you think this one is such shit? I am all ears.
Feebie at November 11, 2010 2:37 PM
Posted by: MonicaP at November 9, 2010 6:23 PM
Are you saying that people who fund these scholarships shouldn't be allowed to do as they please with their own money?
Did I say that? Can and should are two different things. You can buy and feed your children only Twinkies. It's your money and you can do as you damn please, but you really shouldn't if you care about your children's health.
You can set scholarship based on skin color if you please. It's your money, but have you really thought the effect of that to the recipient and to the society in general? Why not show that even black Americans can compete and do as well as or better than people of other ethnicities instead of telling them that they can't compete with others and therefore need to restrict scholarships to match their skin color.
And notice that the example was scholarships to black Americans and Italian-American. Not Ugandan-American or Nigerian-Americans as opposed to Italian Americans. Try to establish a scholarship restricted to white American and you'll hear Nazi and KKK in its responses.
What if they really don't care whether whitey gets an education?
See, you just prove that you think it's OK if it's racism against "whitey." Try saying that you don't really care whether blacks get an education. This kind of racism is just as bad as racism against minorities because then minorities can always blame failures because of racism instead of taking responsibilities and they don't need to be a part of the greater society. It puts the idea that the whole society conspires against a certain ethnicity and there is no need to try hard because one can't succeed anyway. This effect is more devastating to them than to you who are condescending that minorities need to be excused and coddled. At least you get to feel good because you prove that you are not a racist and you defend minorities.
Does funding a minority scholarship really hurt white people or just not help them?
No, scholarships are very limited in numbers and most likely even if you are qualified you won't get it. What scholarship should actually do is to reward those who rise and excel, and this reward is used to help them to excel further. It should spur competition and as I said before, the fact that minorities can compete against the majority should inspire other minorities to excel as well. I respect people who graduate from universities on their own sweat and tears than those who graduate because of affirmative-action, because the later graduate exactly on the privilege based on skin color decried by those claiming "white privilege."
And if we're going to go all rugged individualist on this, why do we care?
Individualist does not mean isolated from society. It seems you confuse individualist people and selfish people. Here is a definition of individualist:
Belief in the primary importance of the individual and in the virtues of self-reliance and personal independence.
Primary, as in there are secondary, tertiary, etc. following it. You should be proud to have a virtue of self-reliance instead of keeping begging others to do thing you should do on your own. The better the society is, the more you can rely on your own strength and dignity. Consider a society that cares not of their own blind members. They couldn't do anything and have no dignity. Consider the fact that the traffic lights in the US and Canada give out warning sound to help the blinds navigate the streets. They are self reliant and they have their own dignity, living their lives like normal people despite their disability.
Faberge at November 11, 2010 7:15 PM
Ok, so "Acknowledging White Privilege" means trying to imagine walking a mile in someone else's shoes, sotospeak?
K. Lemme put it this way, I have absolutely no problem with your explaination for the purpose of A.W.P. (sparing my keyboard to shorten it)...but A.W.P. sounds absolutely nothing like walk a mile in his shoes, look at his experiences, or anything remotely similar. It sounds like a presumption of racial advantage. If there was a campaign that told the middle class they should acknowledge the privileges of their success and that they should be more actively involved in helping the poor solve their problems (note that I said that the poor must solve their problems, not other people do it for them) that I could support. But the emphasis in the statement isn't on wealth, which is the only real source of privilege, it is on race, right there in the middle, "WHITE" it presumes that white experience is somehow superior in terms of advantage. Moreover, it does not explicitly state "black" anywhere, ergo it implies that the white privilege is greater than every single other ethnic group. None of it implies any kind of useful reflection except as something of an insult to other ethnic groups. My mother comes from Panama City Panama, technically I couldn't be counted amongst the traditional WASPs, though I more or less grew up that way, but if I were of Chinese descent, Indish, Native American, African, or anything else, I would be pretty goddamn pissed at the condescending tone of that statement, as if I needed someone to pity or empathize with my presumed "difficulties".
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And yes I DO have an idea, glad you've asked. There was a philosopher, a Frenchman if I recall, though I forget his name, he wrote two hundred and some years ago that:
There will come a time when the issue of race will benefit from a long period of benign neglect.
I'd say that the time for that is now. We don't need a national dialogue about race, we don't need government programs focusing on a minority, and we sure as shit don't need the race hustlers. What we need is to let the issue drop and let people go about their lives. If people don't think about race, then is it really an issue? What makes it an issue is the very fact that people yammer on about it, they fret over it, they stereotype it in the worst ways, and no I don't just mean the KKK style fuckers, no, I mean the hand wringing liberal and the desk jockey government guy who have this condescending attitude that they can "fix things". I say we don't make race an issue by simply letting it drop. I think its safe to say there are very few people in the country who really give a shit about skin color in the first place. I sure as fuck don't, and if businesses did then well fuck, they wouldn't be moving jobs to India to save money on tech support now would they? The only the colour that matters is GREEN. Time we stopped pretending otherwise.
Sure there are racists in the world, and in my country, hell in my army too, but they're few and far between, and just as importantly as that they exist, the fact is that they can't do anything meaningful to bar anyone's way towards their chosen ambition. Race shouldn't be a barrier, but it also shouldn't be a fast track, either one just keeps people caring about something they shouldn't care about.
So lets stop talking about race, lets stop pretending we actually need to concern ourselves with this. Drop the government programs that focus on race (or sex), remove the check boxes for race from demographics, job applications, surveys, and everything else. If we as a collective just let the subject go, then it will stop being an issue and we can all just be Americans.
Good enough idea?
(By the way, realistically speaking, how much could someone actually understand another person's cultural origins without resorting to stereotypes seen or heard in various media formats, which are by their nature exaggerated, isn't it a bit presumptuous to say that isn't racist, or at least condescending, as well, after all, even the best attempt would be filtered through your own cultural upbringing.)
Robert at November 12, 2010 6:55 AM
When we(whatever skin color that we may have) actually personally encountered too many people from the same race or certain subrace behaving badly or extremely unfairly imposing on us to get an unfair advantage over us and denied us some equal opportunity to achieve whatever we like to achieve, then it became an unpleasant reality that most of us who don't come from a privilege background(whatever color of skin we may have) would find it most unacceptable and offensive. Of course we may not give a shit of what color other people have or what beliefs or nonbelief they have, but when we got discriminated due to our beliefs or nonbelief, then we should discourage and reduce multicultural living rather than promote it. WE may have enough problem with the culture that we grow up with and to have more problems with another discriminative alien subculture just make it more unpleasant to our already stressful life.
WLIL at November 12, 2010 3:41 PM
"Which makes perfect sense, since he didn't grow up under the belief system that is reinforced to both whites and people of color here in the US."
Still talking nonsense, I see. Can you offer any details about this supposed "belief system"?
SteveM at November 13, 2010 3:13 PM
Feebie writes:
"But we are talking about RACISM. RIght, so that is defined by RACE, or the color of ones own skin. This was done in the US after Bacon's Rebellion (read it if you don't believe me)a caste system was set up by the ruling elite because blacks and whites at the time were grouping together for common cause (against wealthy elitist landowners). There was no "white" before this Rebellion."
So I looked up Bacon's Rebellion on Wikipedia, and found this:
"About a thousand Virginians rose because they resented Virginia Governor William Berkeley's friendly policies towards the Native Americans. When Berkeley refused to retaliate for a series of Indian attacks on frontier settlements, others took matters into their own hands, murderously attacking Indians, chasing Berkeley from Jamestown, Virginia, and torching the capitol."
Feebie, you just don't seem to know what you're talking about, on any topic.
SteveM at November 13, 2010 3:26 PM
I realize that I'm way late to the party, but I'd like to share what I wrote on another blog about this same topic and "white privilege":
I'm white, whatever that means. But, the most important, most amazing privilege in my life comes from having been born of 2 parents who are good, decent people, who didn't abuse, didn't hold back or tell us we couldn't acomplish things, didn't destroy the family even though their marriage was clearly not perfect, worked to ensure that we were taken care of, and didn't put their selfish desires over the needs of the family.
Looking back at my friends growing up, I was damn lucky. Many, many of my friends didn't have this privilege, the privilege I completely took for granted of having a stable, comfortable, and loving home. Many of those friends, I believe, continue to suffer from it well into adulthood.
I've read several sources that say that when you control for illegitimacy, the statistical problems associated with being a racial minority disappear.
Race means nothing compared to the privilege I had of having a good family.
Lyssa at November 13, 2010 4:36 PM
Usually I read the comments before I post, but didn't here. Apparently, I should have- my contribution wasn't as unique as I had thought. :)
Lyssa at November 13, 2010 5:48 PM
Actually, you said something a little different, and I appreciated it when I read it.
Amy Alkon at November 13, 2010 6:02 PM
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