> The student isn't "undocumented," he's
> a lawbreaker.

Good call. Maybe more "illegal alien" than lawbreaker, but this reminds me of how lefties used to say everyone needed "insurance", presumably because this sounds less expensive than saying 'You're about to pay for everyone else's healthcare, like it or not.'

Crid, I don't think there's any need to soften the blow. The guy is in the country illegally, which is against the law - he's breaking the law. Ergo, he's a lawbreaker.

Tom is exactly right. He is an illegal alien and thus a lawbreaker. Undocumented is such bullshit. If you are "undocumented," ie, an illegal alien, in Mexico, you are a felon, and if they catch you, they will jail you. Why we aren't returning the favor is just a mystery to me (although I don't want illegal aliens jailed, just bused back to Mexico for the Mexicans to cover their health care). If they need a plane ticket, they can go into a special work prison until they earn their way back.

Go out and sell it. It's my favorite statistic gleaned this year: Over most of my life (and maybe all of it, the United States accepted more immigrants than all other nations of the world combined. We're just not that inhospitable that we'll call people criminals for wanting to live here. You (and I) might be annoyed, but that's no excuse for talking like hillbilly down in the holler.

Yeah... "criminal". You think you can sell that? Good luck.

Meanwhile, what the fuck is this?

Your government has been strong-arming... Amazon, Paypal, Mastercard and now Visa.

Presumably you're happy about this.

Presumably, that's how you'd want the gay marriage thing to happen as well, right? I mean, if people won't cooperate....

Or do you think the government should have been "hobbled"?

For fuck's sake.

Fucking HITLER was Man of the Year.

This is lunacy. Heads need to roll.

See? SEE??? This is WHY we NEED transparency in GOVERNMENT!! Because the bastids think they're SO important that they get to HIDE shit from us! Well, THEY DON'T. And the sooner they realize this, the better. What goes around, comes around, folks! Don't let anyone tell you any different.

The only ones I would consider keeping are the ones who were brought over as kids and raised here, and who for whatever reason can't go back to their home country due to the laws back there (ie if they've lost their citizenship or something).

> This country is pretty full-up right now, and
> going broke, to boot.

It's going broke because of illegal immigration, or because of politicians vastly increasing the size of the government/entitlement programs over the last few years?

Full up? Compared to where?

*****Sorry, this is not the 1800s and we don't need homesteaders.*****

This, this, a thousand times this.

This kid is pretty full of himself, isn't he? Comparing himself to Superman? As if.

He's illegal. Put him back on the bus with the rest of his family.

This crap pisses me off. I'd like to move to England. Know why I can't? THEY ENFORCE THEIR IMMIGRATION LAWS. I have two Bachelor's degress and 20 years of work experience, but at this point unless I marry a citizen I'm pretty much screwed. Unlike our little illegal alien friend here, however, I didn't move over there and then start whining when I got caught.

Yeah... "criminal". You think you can sell that? Good luck.

Yeah, I can.

Breaking the law == criminal behavior.

He doesn't have a social security number, so he can't legally hold a job. Yet he earns money. Is he using someone else's identity and thus another crime you may have heard about, identity theft? or is his employer paying him under the table, and thus defrauding Social Security, the IRS and the state of California out of their lawful tax assessments?

Or did he or his parents fraudulently obtain a social security number for him?

So many laws...so little time.

If he wants to get right with the system, and to it as quickly as possible, the I suggest he join the Marine Corps. Yeah, boot and OCS will suck, and getting shot at is no picnic, but it will be the quickest way he and his immediate family will get legal.

Otherwise, apply for your green card and wait your turn like everyone else.

This kid is pretty full of himself, isn't he? Comparing himself to Superman? As if.

I believe Superman wasn't an illegal alien. Wasn't he was adoopted by the Kents, making him a legal alien?

If his parents had brought him here and stayed with him, then he would have been an illegal alien.

This is the same type of stunt comparison used by homeless advocates who claim Jesus was homeless and so we should all shower money on the homeless (or, more to the point, on the homeless advocates).

I R A makes a damn fine point.

Exactly how is he supporting himself? How is he being paid? What social did he put down to get into school?

I was once a flaming liberal, but this stuff ... I remember my old hometownpaper front-paging a violins & hankies story about the poor kids, and how cruel we were for making them face being deported to a country they didn't know, how sad the parents were that they couldn't rest easy at night .. BECAUSE THEY BROUGHT THEIR F'IN KIDS HERE ILLEGALLY. And the community activist who was adamant that we must let illegals have drivers' licenses so they could get car insurance so they would be compensated if they were in an accident, responsible citizens that they were and all - NOT! Oy.

> Yeah, I can.

Well, Golly! Twenty-three decades as the world's most receptive, hospitable nation, but no one's every thought of it before... They're criminals!

Good luck. Do be in touch.

> I R A makes a damn fine point.

Enough is enough, right? It's enough to make a guy want to stuff his corncob pipe in his mouth, cross his arms, and be gruff!

Oh, the same thing happened here awhile back when they raided the Swift plant in Greeley, CO.

The papers cried about how haaaard it was going to be for the families of illegals to be left behind because these lawbreakers were going to be deported (complete with pitiful pictures of crying children - nice touch) - JUST WHO'S FAULT WAS THAT, ANYWAY??? *I* certainly didn't put a gun to anyone's head and say they had to sneak across the border, steal a social security number, and risk getting caught.

I have NO SYMPATHY. NONE.

...can't go back to their home country...

It used to be the case that country A said you had to be born within the country to be a citizen, whereas country B said that you have the nationality of your parents - it doesn't matter where you are born. Hence, a child born in country B, to parents with nationality A, would have no citizenship at all. These irregularities have mostly or entirely been eliminated. About the only way to lose citizenship anymore is to deliberately give it up.

The other situation that can arise is that of a refugee - it is not safe to return home. However, there are regular channels to apply for asylum in such a case. I think that does not apply to anyone being discussed here.

To IRA et al,

Illegals use stolen SS#s to get into school, pay taxes on jobs, collect welfare, etc.

When an agency such as the IRS does an audit, the real owner of that SS# gets the bill for insufficiently paid taxes. That person has to spend their time and money proving that they are the victim.

As for Amy's "stolen car" reference, according to the DOJ, there were 794,000 stolen cars in 2009. There were far more illegals in this country that year.

I have no qualms with the DREAM act granting citizenship for military service, but for attending a university? F*ck that. You're not sacrificing for this country by attending a state university.

On Visa suspending Wikileaks donations... Doesn't Bank of America (among others) issue associated Visa and Mastercards? Could it, perhaps, be that the banks are the ones pressuring the CC companies to stop those donations, since the site's about expose a large number of their trade secrets?

Understand me: i went though all the legal steps to stay here legally, so on the immigration stuff: no problemo, I agree, he is illegal. (undocumented is a nice way to put it, but that's the same)

BUT

why do you focus on the little guy???

Someone should hang those guys in wallstreet that have had such fun with the money of mainstreet.
Why do you allow GMO food and toxic chemical in your life, what is doing FDA?
Corn-subsidized food and drink (federal subsidy)?

It seems to me that it is too easy to go on the little guy, which actually help keep the price low. I think that 30% of the people working in the slaughterhouse are illegal (source: movie "food inc", but I am not sure on this one).

PS: yes this idiot is pretty arrogant and should keep a low profile, but in every group there is a loudmouth.

From my reading as a kid, superman used to save life and kick alien out of earth. But maybe the translation got it wrong?

"I guess I should be inspired by Superman, arguably the most accomplished of all "illegal aliens." "

Off topic, but does it creep anybody else out when people use fictional characters as examples, or claim that they are just like one , like the women who argue about whether they are 'Samantha or Carrie' or which of those two tiresome vampires is a better 'man'?

It's funny how people talk about their ancestors coming over here from other countries, the trials they faced, the challenges they overcame... and yet they never once think to utter the word illegal or undocumented. Clearly, though, this guy is the scum of the earth. How dare he try and tell his own story on this side of the border?!

@Amy speaking of gay Iranians did you know that in Iran there are religiously sanctioned sex change operations. True story! The documentary called Be Like Others is about that.

Ye Gods, the kid was brought here when he was 7. Other kids were brought when they were much younger. Does it make sense to call them criminal? Does it make any sense to try to deport them to countries they do not remember? Does anyone benefit by preventing them from legally working or attending college?

The purpose of the Dream Act (which I support) is to make a clear path toward citizenship for this kind of immigrant.

> Illegals use stolen SS#s to get into school,
> pay taxes on jobs, collect welfare, etc.

A girlfriend who worked an HR office for an environmental services firm used to say it was worse than that; SS #'s would be passed around the family, like a hand tool, depending on which brother-in-law or elder cousin was available for any particular project. At the end of the year, they'd see inexplicably weird-ass patterns in the work schedule.

> You're not sacrificing for this country by
> attending a state university.

I badly wish everyone could understand this argument. To many people say 'But the student is just trying to improve his life!' as if that alone –naked self-interest– were the standard by which our profound patience and generosity should be awarded.

> Someone should hang those guys in wallstreet
> that have had such fun with the money

What does one thing have to do with the other? We focus on the little guy because their are tens of MILLIONS of him. And the wealth he creates here, if any, too often moves directly to indisputably corrupt (and declining) nations.

And by these millions of examples, the rest of the world (and millions of lesser spirits within our country) is further convinced that America is Party Central, and that work and sacrifice are for fools.

There's nothing, nothing to admire about this.

> does it creep anybody else out when people
> use fictional characters as examples

Does it? Does it? Verily, Crella.... Have faith.

> Does it make sense to call them criminal?

Yes. People shouldn't be stupid about it, but yes, it does. They're breaking the law, aren't they? Why would it trouble you to say so?

> Does it make any sense to try to deport
> them to countries they do not remember?

Yes. There are plenty, PLENTY of citizens who need righteous access to the civic services –from education (in English!) to police forces to health inspection— consumed by these parties who pay no taxes and recklessly interfere with the motion (and finance!) of our culture.

> Does anyone benefit by preventing them
> from legally working or attending college?

Yes. The jobs and educations they receive (in English!) are much-desired by other Americans, including people whose families have invested in our nation with their toil and their taxes AND THEIR BLOOD for generations.

Don't ever let yourself be convinced that the candy in America is free. If it were, it would be free in Central in South America as well. But it isn't.

OK, but how come when a guy gets old, their/there/they're becomes a problem, even though it NEVER was in olden days?

I'll tell you why:

IMPATIENCE.

If you people would just LISTEN FASTER, I could talk slower.

I guess I should be inspired by Superman, arguably the most accomplished of all "illegal aliens." Literally, in his case, as he came from another planet as an infant because his parents wanted to give him a better life when his home world was annihilated.

The thing that he fails to note about Superman -- while he wasn't in the military -- he has always fought for "truth, justice and the American way."

I'm the one forever cursed to translate for my parents so they can navigate a foreign system.

I can understand having to translate complex legal stuff or something like medical forms. But if you've been in the U.S. for 12-15 plus years -- learn the f'ing language already. Take repeated ESL classes. Use the Rosetta Stone courses. Get out of Spanish Harlem or wherever and navigate in the English world.

One of the requirements for Naturalization is:

• Be able to read, write, and speak English and have knowledge and an understanding of U.S. history and government (civics).

I attended prison-modeled high schools that were right next to the projects, have high drop out rates and are made up of low-income Latino and African-American students. The only reason I graduated from high school on time was because I was one of those students that didn't make the teacher cry.

While I have problems with the DOE and how schools are run -- part of the issue is that they are overcrowded with illegals that suck the resources away from the students that are there to learn. Having Spanish language courses as well as English language courses sucks down resources. The need twice the teachers. You also have to up the admin staff to cover both the English and Spanish students.

When I was in elementary (fifth grade) in BFE, PA we had a Chinese family move into the district. They hired a single tutor (not a certified teacher) for a year to get the student up on his English -- he graduated from our senior high in the top 50 of 300 students. I also helped tutor him the first year. He was ahead of me in biology.

And plain and simple what part of "illegal" is hard to understand?

Calling them criminals? Hah! As if peoples hearts are supposed to be naturally good enough not to go where the grass is greener and ready to be mowed.

The real criminals are the pople hiring them. I've seen the slave like conditions they put the undocumented immigrants under. And yeah I ain't going to call them criminals, it ain't a crime to me.

The crime is your government is supposed to deport them and enforce the laws. And the silliness these "criminals" pay their flight back home with labor ha! ha!

And remember it's red blooded capitalist americans handing out those dirty dirty jobs.

> The real criminals are the pople hiring them.

Important point.

It's hard to imagine what would happen if the really compassionate people in the United States, on both the left AND the right, were compelled to admit that there's a huge market for something close to slave labor in this country... Which there indisputably is: Every day in L.A., I see dozens if not hundreds of guys standing around on corners like this one (across from a LAPD station). They're just standing there, waiting for someone to come by and give them a job. And it works! It's happening in countless all over the region, by which I mean the American southwest.

This is an unfathomably large and successful labor market where insurance, liability, certification and taxation(!) count for absolutely dick.

The only thing that matters is price.

(PS— Neat used guitar shop just beyond the bus top left, past the donut shop, near the bail bondsman's office.)

(Why, look! There's some of our new friends on the corner right now! Anybody need anything done around the house? New shingles, stump removed from the back yard, old shed full of rusty metal to clean out, anything like that? These guys are here to help! Competitive rates!)

(Or we can just go half a block north and play some guitar. There's a shiny red Stratocaster in there that's comin' home with me one day... America's really a paradise, y'know?)

You read all the time how illegals are exploited in sweatshops because they live in fear of being picked up by INS and deported if they draw any attention to themselves. So how is it that someone like Huerta, who goes public with his status, doesn't get grabbed and booted?

This is not a rhetorical question; I'm genuinely curious about this.

The speaking English thing has really become a burr in my saddle.

Its apparently cruel or killing their culture or something. Its tough to learn a language. Yeah and I've been listening for years as teachers/educrats say its just not fair or workable to dump immigrant kids into english only. We need ESL! More funding!

Now see, I was taught Spanish at one level or another off and on for years from K-12, then I took it for 2 years in University (3 years high school). My university profs told me that to hit fluency I would need immersion. I didn't go study abroad and thus my Spanish skills fades every year. So its something American kids need to do, learn a foreign language but its too tough for immigrants to do so? The hypocrisy from the left on this issue burns me up.

Now you have me wondering about George Gomez, the little freak who stole your pink Rambler.

My wife was 26 when she came here, and she learned English. The Spanish business, especially for voting, just frosts my ass. You need to be a citizen to vote. You need to know English to become a citizen.

I think it's fine if businesses want to attract customers by having people who speak the customer's language. That makes sense.

I don't even mind if official forms come with translations. (How'd you like to try the immigration and customs declaration in Japanese?) It sends the wrong message to translate ballots.

A random guy... there was a story recently here in the Swiss papers about a woman in a limbo situation who'd lived in Switzerland since she was a child, but was from the former Yugoslavia and for some technical reason (I think having to do with the collapse and there not being a Yugloslavia anymore, somehow the paperwork couldnt get sorted out) couldn't go back there, but couldn't stay in Switzerland either. So I suppose it could happen in the US, too...

"It's hard to imagine what would happen if the really compassionate people in the United States, on both the left AND the right, were compelled to admit that there's a huge market for something close to slave labor in this country... The only thing that matters is price."

I keep saying: the U.S. legal minimum wage is set way, way above the actual market value of unskilled labor. Fix that, and you fix a lot of the illegal immigration problem and some of the economic problem too.

I guess I should be inspired by Superman, arguably the most accomplished of all "illegal aliens." Literally, in his case, as he came from another planet as an infant because his parents wanted to give him a better life when his home world was annihilated.

Being sent to America by your parents and legally adopted by an American couple does not make you an illegal immigrant.

Clark Kent's Social Security Number was his own, not one he bought off a junkie on a street corner and shared with six other people.

Oh, and "his parents wanted to give him a better life" is disingenuous. His planet was exploding. It's not like his parents could have instead worked to make their society a better one and given him a better life that way.

...he has always fought for "truth, justice and the American way."

So, any illegal immigrants that can fly, are bullet-proof, and have x-ray vision ... and promise to fight for truth, justice, and the American Way ... can be put on a path to citizenship.

Its apparently cruel or killing their culture or something.

We have to get over this modern fallacy of believing that every immigrant must be allowed (nay, forced) to keep his old culture.

The reason we've been so successful as an immigrant nation is we always assimilated immigrants into the larger society and culture (sometimes even when we tried not to).

Europe is having a problem with disgruntled immigrants because they don't assimilate them. They "respect" the immigrant's culture and let him practice it as he sees fit while isolating him in ghettos because he's different.

Speaking of Switzerland, NicoleK, what did you think of the recent referendum on deporting immigrants convicted of serious crimes?

http://blogs.crikey.com.au/thestump/2010/11/20/switzerlands-bare-bottom-of-truth/

It's a popular fantasy, but deportation isn't as easy as we'd like.

*****Ye Gods, the kid was brought here when he was 7. Other kids were brought when they were much younger. Does it make sense to call them criminal? Does it make any sense to try to deport them to countries they do not remember?*****

The real crime here is that it took THAT LONG to find them. Now, we know where they are. Send them back.

I actually forgot to vote, Martin. I was a bit undecided, anyways, because I couldn't quite figure out the differences between the project and the federal council's counter-project which seemed very similar. I didn't have enough time to delve deeply into the details. I think it is generally a good idea, but there ought to be a way for judges to exercise their discretion in case there is some sort of outlier exception.

The crimes they are getting deported for, according to my election booklet, are serious ones such as murder, rape, etc. It's not like they're deporting shoplifting teenagers. Generally, I think its a good idea, though I think the propaganda poster was race-baiting (it's of a white sheep kicking out a black sheep http://freakytrigger.co.uk/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2007/10/swiss-poster.JPG, it's actually an old one but I've been seeing it around lately).

Of course there was another one with an eastern European white guy looking tough, "Ivan S... rapist and soon to be Swiss"?
http://www.france-israel.org/modules/print_articles.php?art_id=1565 (These are all over the place)

Anyhow, yes, I was leaning towards deporting the criminals but didn't end up sending my ballot in, as I was also ok with the counter-project.

I wish I could find some good Romand blogs.

So, any illegal immigrants that can fly, are bullet-proof, and have x-ray vision ... and promise to fight for truth, justice, and the American Way ... can be put on a path to citizenship.

Conan the Grammarian,

I was referring to the 329 INA Naturalization through active-duty service in the Armed Forces during military hostilities [8 USC 1440] act. (You made me look it up.)

It basically says that if you served honorably in the U.S. Military in declared times of hostilities, you have a fast track to citizenship. I have no problem with that. If you are willing to die for our country (or be injured) -- you should be a citizen.

The comment was intended to mock Zocalo's premise that being a college law student, or a reporter, was equivalent to giving your life for a country you are not yet a citizen of.

As I understand it -- during WWII there were units that had members cheering when they hit the beaches of Normandy or the islands in Pacific. They would now have instant citizenship once they were in a combat zone as a non-U.S. citizen.

That was the dream back then. Even as screwed up as the U.S. is today -- we still have more freedoms than most of the rest of the world.

The comment was intended to mock Zocalo's premise that being a college law student, or a reporter, was equivalent to giving your life for a country you are not yet a citizen of.

I got that.

And I agree with you. Going to college is not a "service to your country" equivalent of fighting for it. Besides, I've already argued that Superman was not an illegal alien, so that particular statute does not apply.

On the other hand, if you want to tell the super-strong, bullet-proof, flying alien he can't stay, go ahead.