Yo, Dustin, The Eighties Called. They Want Their Snobthink Back.
In terms of the stories I hear and my friends and neighbors' experiences of how tough things are in this economy, anyone who throws a party at all these days is a successful swell (or is speeding their way to Chapter 11). Yet, in a New York Times piece by Tim Murphy about a girl hiring a bartender for a party -- a girl living in an apartment just bigger than a shoe closet in Williamsburg, Brooklyn -- a guy had this to say:
"In my opinion, if you don't have a bartender at your party, you're a loser," said Dustin Terry, who lives a floor below Ms. Argiro and said his job was to get models and Saudi royalty into hot clubs. "The bartender brings class and sophistication.""If you can't afford to hire a bartender," he added, "you shouldn't be having a party."
That seems to be the consensus of a growing crowd of 30-something New Yorkers who wish to signal they've graduated from post-collegiate squalor to young professional coming of age. No matter how small their abodes, they won't invite friends over for cocktails without the assistance of a bartender -- even if there's barely room for the bartender to stand.
What really signifies maturity is starting to save money so you won't be eating cat food -- or as much cat food as the rest of us (if the economy is forever in the crapper) -- at 80.
Also, being frugal has become cool. In fact, you hear people bragging about it -- me, for one. Somebody at some event Gregg and I were invited to took one look at my outfit and another look at my glasses and assumed about my groovy glasses, "Alain Mikli?" (which, even discounted, go for hundreds of dollars...like four hundreds).
"Nope," I bragged. "$14.99 Borghese reading glasses from CVS, with a prescription that was $35 plus $4.95 shipping from eyeglassdirect.com."
(And you can get even cheaper glasses from zennioptical.com.)
via Instapundit
I value the opinion of adult children like Mr Terry highly. What would we do without someone to get models and Saudis into hot clubs?
Is he a doorman, or some sort of tout, or what, exactly? Who pays him? I'm guessing it's not the models.
It's not a generation. We've still got young people serving, volunteering, putting their lives on the line for us, getting educated, working, and raising families. Then we have the walking attitudes of the world, like Mr Terry.
Pay no attention to me, I don't have a bartender.
MarkD at December 11, 2010 5:49 AM
It's not a generation.
That's right. It's Manhattanites.
I try to avoid anything that's happening in an apartment in Manhattan unless the person is absurdly wealthy. It's not snobbery, it's that I can't take those ridiculously tiny apartments that people live in. They're uncomfortable and depressing. You feel like you're sitting around in a dorm room.
But I think that the bartenders are a good thing. The sooner we get money out of the hands of the Dustin Terry's of the world and into the hands of people like bartenders the better.
jen at December 11, 2010 6:09 AM
jen:
"That's right. It's Manhattanites."
No, actually, it isn't: everyone in the article who's identified by borough is from Brooklyn. This time it's Williamsburg and Bushwick, where lots of artist types have moved to take advantage of repurposed industrial spaces. Often, the other vulgar mini-trends profiled in the Style Section emanate from Park Slope or Cobble Hill, but those are in Brooklyn, too.
Sean Kinsell at December 11, 2010 6:26 AM
I don't quite know how to say this, I generally like how you handle social situations.........However, whoever asked about your glasses was giving you a compliment on your taste and style, based upon the general retail value of that particular designer. I'm shocked you detailed down to the last cent how much they actually cost. I definitely had you pegged as the sort of person who didn't talk about money, as a rule. Interesting......
Kay at December 11, 2010 6:30 AM
I've often thought life would be so much better if I wasn't struggling under the weight of my values. In Dustin's case, vapidity is bliss.
DaveG at December 11, 2010 6:34 AM
>> "That's right. It's Manhattanites."
It's New Yorkers in general. Not everyone of course, but your average twenty or thirty something in Brooklyn or Manhattan is a self important douche.
Jo at December 11, 2010 6:44 AM
Kay,
Amy's dropping the price is debatable, but why do you say taste and style are based on retail value? Perhaps Mr. Mikli makes the world's greatest glasses (I have no idea). Companies can charge more if their product is truly superior, but people also pay big bucks for crap, and some low-priced items are superior. That's the slob-appeal paradox: avoiding products of dubious provenance that may actually be just awesome. I admit I skeeve slightly at dollar stores. However, I've also read that the products at Aldi's, which are competitively priced, match or exceed the quality standards of their "better known" competitors - and in some cases may be the same product.
DaveG at December 11, 2010 6:45 AM
However, whoever asked about your glasses was giving you a compliment on your taste and style, based upon the general retail value of that particular designer.
I assumed that the question mark at the end of "Alain Mikli" indicated a inflection in the statement signifying that the statement was actually a question, and in this case the question was, "are those Alain Mikli glasses?"
You complimented Amy on how she handles social situation and generally seem to be impressed by it. Yet in this situation you assume that you understand better than her: the question, the person asking, the setting in which it was asked, and the background in the relationship between Amy and the quesitoner.
There are a lot of situation in which her response may be entirely appropriate yet rather than think of Amy's past history and her ability to make those judgments you responded with snark.
Not that Amy needs other people defending her. I'm just tired of stupidly snarky comments on websites.
Dale at December 11, 2010 6:55 AM
Bravo, Mr. Terry! A true expert on class and sophistication is hard to find in New York (and more so in the lesser cities), particularly one with enough insight and confidence to call out "loser!" when he sees one. What a gorgeous picture of you and your friends posing by the shallow end: http://guestofaguest.com/nyc-parties/matthew-assante-and-dustin-terry-the-new-jason-strauss-and-noah-tepperberg/
Janey at December 11, 2010 7:45 AM
Dustin Terry sounds awful.
But at least snobbish, show-off hosts presumably seldom try to shake down their guests the way mooching "hosts" do, and if those were my only choices as friends, I'd probably go with the former. (So long as the host didn't think of ME as a loser when I reciprocate by inviting him to my party and there's no bartender - but maybe that's just wishful thinking.)
To reiterate:
I don't mind potluck dinners, especially when circumstances mean that the hosts will never visit my house (such as when they are semi-
invalids). But there ARE times when potluck isn't really that - it's mooching.
From Amy Dickinson's column, fall of 2006:
Dear Amy: I just received yet another invitation to a "party" to which I am supposed to bring food and drink. I have noticed that over the years this "potluck" trend is increasing.
I think potlucks are fine for impoverished grad students or committee meetings, but it seems to me that two gainfully employed adults who own
their home should not expect their guests to provide refreshments for themselves.
If the excuse is that both are working and have no time to prepare, I would argue that the same is true for their guests.
If cash is short, a big pot of soup and some crusty bread make fine fare. My understanding is that hospitality means sharing what you have
with your friends, not asking them to pay for your "party."
I have taken to simply declining without explanation invitations that require me to provide refreshments as price of admission. I am
wondering if I am the only person who is fed up with this whole thing.
- Tired Of Cooking
Dear Tired: I have also noticed an increase in potlucking and agree with you that, depending on the event, bringing your own food and drink
to a dinner party hardly seems like hospitality.
Now that you've thrown down the cassoulet, let's see how others respond.
And here's the best follow-up, from Jan. 2007:
"Those who object to potluck dinners should be aware that there is a difference between a dinner that everyone agrees will be shared -- and one to which guests are invited, only to be asked to supply the hostess's menu. I agree that the latter is inappropriate."
lenona at December 11, 2010 7:49 AM
I definitely had you pegged as the sort of person who didn't talk about money, as a rule. Interesting......
Interesting that you see this as "talking about money." I don't go around talking about how much I make but I think it's cool to not spend a lot of money and see nothing wrong about talking about how you've scored in that department -- especially when asked. And interesting that you assume talking about what you paid for something is tacky. Is that because that's how you've been taught to think? If not, please explain why it would be tacky.
Asking if my glasses are "Alain Mikli" is assuming that because I look stylish I wear name brands and spent $500 on a pair of eyewear. I don't and wouldn't, and apparently really scored on those drugstore glasses if she thought I spent that much money on them.
She asked and I was most happy to answer and correct her.
Of course, I don't walk up to people at parties announcing how much my outfit cost, but if anyone at a party wants to know, I'd probably be fine with telling them. Why wouldn't I?
I know a woman who's a reporter who buys retail -- at Barney's -- who turns up her nose at buying stuff used at designer retail or eBay. She sometimes wears $800 stiletto sandals. Me? If I’m paying $800 for something, it had better come with a chance to upgrade to business class.
PS I LOVE clothes, and I haven't shopped for two years because of the economy -- didn't buy any clothes in Paris (my boyfriend took me last week. I bought only a year and a half's worth of sunblock, stationery, a cheap scarf, and some cheapo drugstore jewelry, and a few little presents for other people). The thing is, I'd rather write what I love for less money than I'd make at a paper than have to write what somebody tells me to pay my department store bills. Your mileage may vary.
Oh, and P.S. I walked to a not-so-nice part of town and found my sunblock -- Anthelios 60 Fluide
-- which you can get for $25 at Amazon for 50 ml -- in the rare 125 ml bottles. This which works out to my paying $8 and change for 50 ml -- for what would have cost me $15 in Paris or $25 and change here. I think that's super-cool!...don't you?
Amy Alkon at December 11, 2010 8:16 AM
In short, the conversation, not in so many words:
Her: "Alain Mikli?"
Me: "Hey! I'm stylish, but nobody's $500-for-frames-spending chump!"
Amy Alkon at December 11, 2010 8:19 AM
I read the other day the 7 wealthiest counties in America now surround Washington DC. Since DC is flooding Wall Street with free money, and Wall Street bonuses have returned to astronomical levels, I have noticed this trend of conspicuous consumption returning, not that it ever really left.
Contrast it to this:
http://wimp.com/wecould/
Eric at December 11, 2010 8:30 AM
I loved Amy's response to the comment on her glasses. Amy's hottness is exceeded only by her cleverness and pure guts by being honest in her interactions. Keep it up Amy.
Oh, and I love that you share your insights on finding good deals. Sometimes when I friend has later told me of a steal of deal I've thought, "Oh, I wish I would have known." I really appreciate when a friend calls me to tell me that such and such is on sale now at so and so! My son loves to play chess and a friend, knwing this, told me that Ross has both glass and wood chess sets for a very good price! Now that saves me a lot of time searching for a good price.
Brett at December 11, 2010 8:55 AM
Asking if my glasses are "Alain Mikli" is assuming that because I look stylish I wear name brands and spent $500 on a pair of eyewear.
I usually interpret that as "showing off their eye for design/knowledge of designers", but I'm kind of a misanthropist.
I was taught it's rude--to the point of taboo--to ask people how much their clothes or furniture cost...I grew up in rural Iowa in the late 1980s. The accepted way to get around it and get a ballpark figure was to ask where they got it--Sears was one price point, the locally-owned women's clothing stores were much higher.
I assume the reason for the taboo was because farm owners had more disposable income than regular workers--their housing, cars/trucks, utilities, health insurance, etc, were all paid for out of the farm's business accounts, not out of the salary they paid themselves (which was often low enough that the kids qualified for free lunch, despite driving new cars to school the days they turned 14 or 16--written off as farm vehicles and powered with tax-free farm gasoline). Ho-hum.
HeatherRadish at December 11, 2010 9:05 AM
Another bit of information I encountered this morning: the town just north of here is Hayden, Idaho. Beautiful neighborhoods, a gorgous lake, about 12,500 residents. The taxable value of all the property there just came in at $900 million, which is about 2.5% of Bill Gates net worth. Looked at another way, Bill Gates has ammassed a fortune equal to the property holdings of 1/2 million people!
Eric at December 11, 2010 9:06 AM
Speaking of snobs (Going offtopic)...
Only yesterday I read a story that investigators were sniffing around all of Madoff's associates, including his sons.
The Madoff fund was the ultimate in snob wealth. The people who got taken were happy not to pay attention to where the money was coming from. They wanted to think that the magic came simply from being a friend of Bernie's, a blessing that other people –slower, less savvy people– hadn't earned.
In a scandal like this, complicity seeps into everything. Even if he didn't know what his father was doing over most of twenty years –which I'd find extremely hard to believe– the son's personal wealth is deeply tainted. How many vacations did Mark enjoy with his father? How many elegant holiday meals? How many sweaters and wristwatches and gifts? How many loans for apartments or business deals?
For the rest of his days, people were going to look at everything in Mark Madoff's life as if it had been stolen.,, Because in a sense, it had been, even if there were no direct connection to his father's booty. Having a family of serene wealth gives a person all sorts of advantages that others don't have.
It was good of the sons to turn their father in, but let's remember, they only did it after they had nowhere else to go. These were not financially oblivious men. They knew how hard it is to make money, even in Wall Street on the good years. I don't even know to name to give the championship for turning in a family member, but David Kaczynski still wears the belt.
In a circumstance like this, suicide is still sad.. But as a move toward honor, it has a lot to recommend it.
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at December 11, 2010 9:15 AM
The latest comments here remind me of a feature from MAD Magazine (1980s?):
Middle class poverty is.....not being able to yell at your son for not getting a haircut because you can't afford the cash.
Middle class poverty is.....getting compliments from your friends on your antiques when you never knew you owned any antiques.
(I wish I could find it again - there was a lot more in that piece that I can't remember!)
lenona at December 11, 2010 9:15 AM
>>I loved Amy's response to the comment on her glasses. Amy's hottness is exceeded only by her cleverness and pure guts by being honest in her interactions. Keep it up Amy.
Exactly, Brett.
I thought Amy's candid answer was 100% adorable (and the links are 100% fabulous).
Jody Tresidder at December 11, 2010 9:42 AM
I don't think Madoff's son killing himself is something that anyone should do for "honor". Maybe he knew about it for a while, maybe he didn't. If he wanted to make amends, he could join the Peace Corps or give to charity or do community service. People shouldn't kill themselves to try to make up for a relative's thieving ways.
I agree that if the conversation seems to allow for it, there's no big deal in saying how much you paid for something, especially if you got a good deal and are sort of helping the other person be able to do that, too. If you tell someone how much you paid to show off how expensive it was, that's kind of showing off in a meaner way.
KrisL at December 11, 2010 9:57 AM
It's wonderful to know that the stock broker dude feels less a "dirt bag" while being served nog in a plastic cup. The NY Times must be chasing after The Onion's success.
Jason S. at December 11, 2010 9:59 AM
> People shouldn't kill themselves to try
> to make up for a relative's thieving ways.
Again, the concept of "complicity" is important here.
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at December 11, 2010 9:59 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2010/12/11/yo_dustin_the_e.html#comment-1797559">comment from HeatherRadishI assume the reason for the taboo was because farm owners had more disposable income than regular workers
These days, as my friend Virginia Postrel writes in The Substance of Style: How the Rise of Aesthetic Value Is Remaking Commerce, Culture, and Consciousness, it's possible for people across all economic strata to have stylish, well-designed things.
In fact, I'm amazed to see how much people who are probably low-income spend on cars, mag wheels, etc. A busboy for the restaurant that sucks up our residential parking just parked his relatively new Lexus in front of my house. Now, maybe somebody gave him the car, but I doubt that. Really stupid for somebody who's making busboy wages.
Personally, I'd still have my phone I got in, oh, 2004 or so, but for the fact that Gregg insisted on buying me an iPhone and putting me on his plan as a family plan. It makes him happy to give me technology...who am I to argue? In fact, today, he's apparently upgrading me from the iPhone 3G to the iPhone 4G because it's the last day to do that at Radio Shack and only costs $24.95. Me? I think the iPhone 3G is the coolest little computer I've ever had, and don't really see the benefit, but again, if that's what it takes to make my boyfriend happy, to Radio Shack I will go!
Amy Alkon at December 11, 2010 10:19 AM
Mark Madoff hung himself by a dog leash while his two year old son slept in a nearby room. His Wife and four year old daughter were at Disney World...
Either a compltely selfish bastard or the victim of a well well placed hitman.
Eric at December 11, 2010 11:01 AM
Friday afternoon: Article (with deer-in-headlights photo)in the Wall Street Journal
Saturday morning: Hanging
I'm going with suicide.
One of my favorite aphorisms from the Colin Powell book is a piece of counsel for people at the end of a bad day: "Things always look better in the morning."
It's not true, of course.
Crid [cridcomment at gmail] at December 11, 2010 11:49 AM
More deets.
Crid [cridcomment at gmail] at December 11, 2010 12:47 PM
But I think that the bartenders are a good thing. The sooner we get money out of the hands of the Dustin Terry's of the world and into the hands of people like bartenders the better.
Yeah, there's something to be said for that. On the other hand, bartending is an awful lot like cooking or chemistry: follow the receipe. With practice, you'll remember the receipe and you'll be quick and efficient with technique.
Let's face it: how hard is it to make a screwdriver or bloody mary? the bonus will be that you're the bartender, and people like Dustin will want to give you money to make their drinks.
I R A Darth Aggie at December 11, 2010 1:36 PM
No matter how small their abodes, they won't invite friends over for cocktails without the assistance of a bartender -- even if there's barely room for the bartender to stand.
Another lifestyle writer, another bogus trend story for people to get worked up over.
Christopher at December 11, 2010 1:44 PM
> Let's face it: how hard is it to make a
> screwdriver or bloody mary?
Wealth is created when assets are moved from lesser- to higher-valued purposes, right?
I have a bottle of hooch, some bitters, ice cubes and lemon peel sitting on a countertop. I pay Eric to fix a martini for my date. He mixes a drink, my date drinks it, I get laid, Eric gets paid, and everybody's happy.
Wealth has been created.
I agree with everything Amy says about frugality. But these generations are going to take her advice to heart very, very slowly. Over the last quarter-century, financial services has become the biggest sector of economy. And the average financial services worker is a dork with a spreadsheet who has no clue how to add value to your money.
Compared to someone like that, a bartender may be a great expenditure, a genuine source of fulfillment to party-people (whose personal values you & I don't share). Who knows?
(And again— I think the Alkon-style frugality explains exactly how so many Americans got to be millionaires in the last few decades. Maybe they had one thing that they liked to spend money on... Shoes or cars or trips to Paris or good bricks of cheese... But in every other realm of life, they squeezed their pennies like mad and invested carefully.)
Crid [cridcomment at gmail] at December 11, 2010 1:47 PM
Let's face it: how hard is it to make a screwdriver or bloody mary?
The bartender at the party in the article wasn't even doing that. He was hired to serve eggnog and vodka punch in plastic glasses. While standing in a two-foot triangle. I found this story over at gofugyourself.com and they had this to say in reference to the douchey quote by Mr. Terry: Your actual friends don’t think you’re a loser if you don’t have hired help, they’re just glad to get to hang out with you. And if you did get a bartender for your holiday party, your actual friends thought, “ooh, a bartender! Awesome, I don’t have to dig through the fridge looking for mixers,” and then ordered a drink and got on with their lives.
I'd like to add that I don't necessarily think it's snobby to hire a bartender for two dozen people in an apartment the size of Barbie's Malibu Dream House, but I do think it's snobby to say that you shouldn't even bother to have people over if you don't hire one.
NumberSix at December 11, 2010 2:01 PM
>> I get laid, Eric gets paid, and everybody's happy.
You still owe me for the roofies, Dude.
Eric at December 11, 2010 2:28 PM
I love NYT style section articles. They are an endless source of comedy gold. Traumas of the Upper East Side (or Park Slope, in this case).
Astra at December 11, 2010 3:29 PM
Astra, your comment reminds me of one the all-time best blog posts.
When the NYT says it's time to get really upset about something, it helps to consider the perspectives reflected on the surrounding pages... They have to print the entire newspaper before they make money.
Crid [cridcomment at gmail] at December 11, 2010 4:05 PM
(And for the record: Who says "equality" is the purpose of a "boom"? I mean, sure... It would be great if we were all equally skilled at creating wealth, and equally eager to do so. But here in the real world, it doesn't go that way.)
(I mean seriously, has there ever been a boom that WASN'T "capitalist"?, Or a capitalism that wasn't "permissive"?)
(Yes, I'm getting extremely pissed off at a ten-year-old headline from the New York Times that's been presented to me second-hand. That happens sometimes. Those people are that annoying.)
Crid [cridcomment at gmail] at December 11, 2010 4:18 PM
Honestly I have to wonder if this is a real trend, or just a "trend" among a small subset of people that someone decided to do an article about because it was a slow day.
Shannon at December 11, 2010 4:37 PM
I've been thrift store shopping and buying from online outlets like Zenni Optical since I was a single mom working full time and putting myself thru college. My girls are both very good with their money as well, able to sew their own outfits that you can't tell from the designers.
(yes, I was the mom chained to the sewing machine at halloween making costumes instead of buying from the cheepcrap halloween flybynight stores :P)
When I travel, I always leave room in my luggage for a trip to the local Salvation Army or Good Will, you never know what you will find in different regions of the country. (My latest score was a new romantic style denim coat with brass buttons for $3 :)
So I laugh at anyone who thinks that hiring a bartender to host a party in a crackerbox apartment impresses anyone. I would be more impressed by them saving up, and moving to a bigger place.
Kat at December 11, 2010 4:54 PM
I don't recall hiring any bartenders back in the Eighties. Although there were some that I gave enough money to that I may as well have.
Cousin Dave at December 11, 2010 4:59 PM
Honestly I have to wonder if this is a real trend, or just a "trend" among a small subset of people that someone decided to do an article about because it was a slow day.
You've just described about 98% of lifestyle coverage.
guest at December 11, 2010 5:33 PM
Best party I ever had was the "Doomsday XMess Party". I was in bankruptcy and broke (obviously). But I have a fun house and friends said... you need to have a XMess party... OK I said but ya'll have to bring EVERYTHING excepting plates, glasses, silverware and toilet paper. Friends brought the best of their best..musicians brought their instruments and played. It went on forever and remains the best XMess party ever! Me? I was the bartender!!!!!
melinda Klebanofff at December 11, 2010 5:45 PM
I admit I skeeve slightly at dollar stores. However, I've also read that the products at Aldi's, which are competitively priced, match or exceed the quality standards of their "better known" competitors - and in some cases may be the same product.
Some of the canned stuff at Aldi's I don't mind -- the corn, peas, potatoes, tomato soup, etc. -- don't make a difference to me. Some of it I wouldn't serve to a dog. For example -- I find that the canned beans (for chili) just don't stand up to what you need to make a good chili. But at the same time, I have no problem with the store brand beans at most major stores (Kroger, Wal-mart, or Meijer.) But that is learning to be subjective.
Anymore I find myself buying by the case/carton and stocking up. I'm worried where the economy is going. I want enough to last a couple of months until it goes completely south or has a chance to recover.
Jim P. at December 11, 2010 8:29 PM
Honestly I have to wonder if this is a real trend, or just a "trend" among a small subset of people that someone decided to do an article about because it was a slow day.
From Slate: A Times Assortment of Bogus Trend Stories
Slate ran another piece like this recently that debunked the Times' supposed trend of twenty-somethings foregoing bathing. I would really love to meet the Times lifestyle editor. I bet it would be a hoot.
NumberSix at December 11, 2010 8:43 PM
I like Melinda- come back often!
Eric at December 11, 2010 9:37 PM
Over the last quarter-century, financial services has become the biggest sector of economy.
This is a real problem. Financial services people provide helpful economic lubrication, but they are essentially middlemen; currently they are compensated far too highly for the value they generate. Smart businessmen are already thinking about how to cut them out of deals.
Christopher at December 11, 2010 9:55 PM
Thank you, Christopher. All I've wanted for the last three years is for someone to say that.
And listen, when intermediaries ADD VALUE, we're all happy to let them keep a slice. This is the quintessence of Amy's comments about frugality / "skeeving".
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at December 11, 2010 10:00 PM
(People ask: Doooood, what were the Ozarks like during the Oliver North era when you were there? Well, they were like this... Half a thousand people stranded on an entirely unremarkable, recently-flooded artificial lake in inappropriate weather, just off "Poverty Point", and nobody's worried about anything but their dye-abeed-deez.)
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at December 11, 2010 10:26 PM
"Financial services people provide helpful economic lubrication, but they are essentially middlemen; currently they are compensated far too highly for the value they generate"...similarly for the legal profession. Both the legal profession and the financial industry are essential to the functioning of our society, but they should be a relatively small part of it. Analogy: the governor on an engine. It performs an important role in controlling the engine's speed, but should consume very little power in so doing. If the governor is scarfing up 30% of the engine's horsepower, something is wrong.
david foster at December 12, 2010 6:30 AM
> similarly for the legal profession.
I think the legal profession is a little more self-correcting. When lawyers can't find work, they go into the gardening business or learn to lease trucks or something.
These FinServ types –with their bubble having burst so shortly after its inflation– haven't made plans for the future yet. They think they have a right to make money in nice offices doing nothing.
Weak lawyers are disabused of this fantasy, no matter how much grad school debt they have... If people don't bring them bogus pretexts to sue (or whatever), they're screwed.
Crid [cridcomment at gmail] at December 12, 2010 8:00 AM
Crid...I believe it was Shakespeare who observed that "two lawyers can thrive in a town where one would starve." While individual lawyers may do so poorly financially that they leave the field, the profession as a whole has considerable ability to generate its own demand. Particularly given the dominance of lawyers in Congress and in state legislatures.
david foster at December 12, 2010 8:24 AM
> the profession as a whole has considerable
> ability to generate its own demand.
Which side to dam the dyke? You wanna prosecute the 'tutes or the Johns? I know where the problem lives.
Crid [cridcomment at gmail] at December 12, 2010 10:07 AM
"I think the legal profession is a little more self-correcting. When lawyers can't find work, they go into the gardening business or learn to lease trucks or something."
It's rare that someone's opinion of lawyers is too high, but that's the problem here - when lawyers can't find work, they make it, and that makes problems for the rest of the country.
'When there are too many policemen, there can be no liberty. When there are too many soldiers, there can be no peace. When there are too many lawyers, there can be no justice.' - Lin Yutang
CB at December 13, 2010 1:26 PM
Amy,
Not to nit pick, but chapter 11 is a business bankruptcy. Chapter 7/13 are for individuals.
I worked for a chapter 7 bankruptcy firm here in chicago for 3 years, and a more unscrupulous group you will never find. Imagine the worst ambulance chaser from film/tv, and you get an idea of the partners of the firm. The turnover rate is about 85% at that place, and to this day, all they care about is getting the most money they can, for the least amount of work. And sadly, business for them is booming right now.
Steve at December 13, 2010 4:45 PM
Kay again...
I don't find bargain hunting disagreeable. In fact I find it commendable, since the economy of prices is arbitrary. Still, I was raised to believe discussing monetary prices outside of close social settings tacky. If i own something expensive.....then say I consider it delightful and move on. If I find a deal..... same thing. I consider it worth it and move on. This might be my upbringing but either way, saying anything that might make someone sound expensively unobservant OR cheap is rude...
It only feeds what I consider a toxic class war
Kay at December 13, 2010 11:45 PM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2010/12/11/yo_dustin_the_e.html#comment-1799538">comment from KayI was raised to stay in Michigan, be Jewish, marry a Jewish man and have a bunch of children, but I question everything. The fact that you were raised to think a certain way isn't justification for thinking that way, merely reportage.
"saying anything that might make someone sound expensively unobservant OR cheap is rude..."
I have no idea what you're saying here.
"It only feeds what I consider a toxic class war"
This is just silly. What smashes up any snobbery is telling somebody that your supposedly outrageously priced high fashion glasses are from an el cheapo drugstore, with a prescription you mailed away and had put in from some Internet company in Brooklyn. To me, what's classy is being kind, not pretending that you spent a wheelbarrow full of money on eyeglasses -- or keeping mum about how much you did spend.
Amy Alkon at December 14, 2010 12:18 AM
Kay, there are people who brag about how cheap they got things just like there are people who brag about how expensive their stuff is. They're the "I love your sweater, but the one I have cost so much less!" types. I love a good deal, but I hate it when someone talks incessantly and without provocation about how much he paid for something, regardless of whether it was cheap or expensive.
But I do think there is a difference between those people and people like me who will tell you I got a good deal if I'm asked. And I do like talking with people about getting bargains. Not to the busybodies or the one-uppers, mind you, but regular people that I can tell aren't either of those things. I worked retail for years and there was much delight to be had in finding a customer something she loved that was also a great deal, because both made her happy.
I agree with you, Amy, in that in some situations it can be just as snobby to refuse to speak about money. Because whatever your actual circumstances are, it implies that you don't have to worry about it.
I guess what I'm saying here, Kay, is that there is much room for nuance in speaking about how much something cost. It's not automatically one way or the other.
NumberSix at December 14, 2010 1:24 AM
> when lawyers can't find work, they make it
It's just not so. They're parasitic, and I don't mean that harshly... The feed off the conflict in the lives of others. Beyond that they have no special powers to make trouble.
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at December 15, 2010 1:31 AM
I heard a saying once:
"In DC they ask, 'Who do you work for?'
In Boston they ask, 'Where did you go to school?' and
In NYC they ask, 'How much do you make?'"
Apparently in NYC they value money most of all, and value flaunting it as well. As a dour New Englander, I find it in poor taste, but there you go.
NicoleK at December 19, 2010 11:00 AM
Text messaging has change into an integral a part of our day-to-day lives. No one can deny the insurmountable amount of comfort it has allowed us when attending issues of each our personal and business affairs. The ability to send quick messages on the go is what makes textual content messaging so enticing that almost all of us simply can not dwell with out it. It has really transcended from a mere luxurious to a necessity as evidenced by the heavy influx of cell phones out there today. Among them, the Apple iPhone might be the one that garnered probably the most public adulation. It is because the iPhone is the primary telephone that combined the powers of each cell phone and computer.
Vida Mcloud at February 1, 2011 3:24 PM
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