Sounds pervy. And of course it could never work. Thanx for working to expose the scam.

Conversions happen all the time for women, without therapy of any sort. It's gay men who seem more intrinsically homosexual. So the author shouldn't be making the claim that everyone who's homosexual is the same way. He doesn't know what he's talking about. I've seen the consequences of this attitude with a close friend of mine. She was a lesbian throughout college, but became interested in men in her later twenties. A few years ago she got engaged to a great guy, but her friends didn't want to accept it. They gave her a really hard time, wanting her to go to therapy and threatening to disrupt the wedding. It was horrible and abusive behavior by people who she though had cared for her.

I just read where Carrie Fisher outed John Travolta in an article. Apparently, it's well known that he's gay, and she said her feelings about Travolta "have always been that we know and we just don't care".

It's sad that gay men have to lead double lives, but it's still shocking to see how far they'll go to do so. I would think in Travolta's case, his wife must know (a lot of Hollywood relationships are arranged just to cover this up) but many ordinary wives out there have no idea.

Here's the article from the Advocate:

http://advocate.com/Arts_and_Entertainment/Television/Fisher_Priceless/

Unless I missed something, nobody is forcing anyone into this psychodrama, so they can't be happy about their lives. They are actually paying $650 to attend, voluntarily. There are other organizations willing to take your money to do good things, the US Treasury first among them. TV informercials will help, and if you've still got some left, lotteries and Nigerians will help you right out.

There are a lot of things I don't necesarily approve of, but they aren't my business.

>> Don't be too quick to deem these "conversions."

Whatever you want to call them. It's evident though that people's preferences can change throughout their life. Like the middle aged men who suddenly 'realize' that they're gay. Strangely they can have sex with their wives for years, but once they have a couple of kids and she stops looking like a teenager, these guys come to the realization that they've been gay all along.

How can anyone hate celery?

I have seen pretty much over the years. The Kinsey Heterosexual-Homosexual Rating Scale seems pretty much reality.

I've known men and women on both ends of the scale.

The issue is how society and individuals respond to homosexuality. I can fully understand those who don't want to deal with GLBT or have a racial bias. I was raised in a small town. Those who killed Matthew Shepard or are actively burning crosses -- they should be put under the jail.

I don't believe in special rights -- but equal rights.

How can anyone hate celery?

Celery knows what it did.

Did those men suddenly desire men, or did they just realize they always had, and say, "Fuck it, I'm not faking it anymore"?

The ones I've known haven't been faking it. This has happened to two women I know, one of which is a close friend. I'd actually dated her ex back in the day. She didn't buy that he was secretly gay for fifteen years and after really pressing him on it, he basically admitted that he wanted to have sex with men because it was easy and exciting for him, and that he didn't want to be married any more. Last I heard, he's dating women again.

Purely straight men don't find it "easy and exciting" to be with other men. He is bisexual. Men's sexuality can fall somewhere in the middle too, though it's more common for it to be on one side or the other.

It's true that a bisexual would have a choice whether to embrace a "conversion" or not. They aren't really "converting", just choosing a side, which is easier for them because they are attracted to both.

Men's sexuality can fall somewhere in the middle too, though it's more common for it to be on one side or the other.

OK. But that doesn't justify breaking up your family and then hiding behind the claim that you've been gay all along.

Also you point gets to an issue that I have with this guy's project. If people fall on a continuum, what right does he have to play the gay enforcer and humiliate these men? He's not even gay!

It is intersting that people strike such pompous poses of moral virtue when defending gay marriage, but eyes turn to daggers when one says that polygamy should be legal too.

Upon what foundation do we deny people polygamy or polyandry?

Two guys buggering each other is better than polygamy? Why?

"OK. But that doesn't justify breaking up your family and then hiding behind the claim that you've been gay all along."

I agree that's very sad. I just had a friend go through the same thing - not as long of a marriage, but they have 2 young kids, which is even harder for them. She says they were best friends - and still are - and she never suspected (yet, my other friend, who works in movies and has excellent "gaydar" claims she knew the moment they met).

Straight or gay, people fall out of love, and sex is only one component why. It sounds like he was struggling with attractions towards other men the whole time, and perhaps a lack of attraction for his wife.

I tend to believe that bisexual men tend to lean more towards gay than straight. They may try to be with women, and are reasonably successful at times - and it is certainly more comfortable to conform to what society accepts - but the same sex attraction usually wins out.

If what you REALLY want sexually isn't there, it gets tougher and tougher to fake as the years go by. I can attest that's true, straight or gay.

"Upon what foundation do we deny people polygamy or polyandry?"

Based on our culture's choice to only sanction relationships between two consenting adults...not children, or animals, aliens, or multiples.

It's an arbitrary choice, but any society has the right to make it. If polygamy or polyandry becomes popular (I watch that show with the guy and his 4 wives - love it!), then there may come a point where society revisits the 2 person rule, but, right now, there's not much support for that idea.

> I agree that's very sad.

She baaaaaaa-aaaaaack! The psycho we all remember....

How can anyone hate celery?
How can anyone not! It tastes like antifreeze as a vegetable.

I read recently, it could be genetic. That cilantro tastes like a lemony herb to some people, & like soap to others.

I have personally known one person who went from gay to straight. The other, I know about through a friend. In both cases, it was explained to me that their same sex -sexual orientation was the result of childhood sexual abuse - the woman by an older male family member. The man, by a close male friend of the family. I think this is different than being born gay - which I do believe is a fact.

If people choose to rethink or question their sexual orientation due to past trauma - the last place they should go for guidance is a religious retreat (IMHO). These classes sound unbelievably warped... but no one is forced to participate, right?

PS. What the heck is wrong with celery? ;)

When I was first married I lived next door to a lesbian couple. The one had been married with children. Her explanation, not that she owed it to me, was that she was always gay but felt societal pressure to marry and have kids. It became too much and was draining her to the point of serious depression. Her husband was upset at first but somehow they managed to divorce in a very amicable way and coparent their two sons. The woman she eventually lived with was a very nice woman who had never questioned her sexuality. They had a civil ceremony and last I spoke with them, they were together for over ten years.

I don't think any person who marries and then comes out as gay thinks of it as a choice. The marriage part is due to pressures to be straight, not because it was their preference. Maybe when our society allows people to love who they want to love freely regardless of sexual orientation, we won't have so many supposedly straight people leaving marriages for a same-sex partner.

"She baaaaaaa-aaaaaack! The psycho we all remember...."

I said it was sad, not justified. You and I agree more than you ever acknowledge. My personal feeling is that this man should've stayed with his family, at least until the kids are grown. He made that commitment, and brought kids into the situation, which should trump his personal needs or sexual inclinations.

His wife even offered to have an "arrangement" where he could be with his lover. Not sure what else she could've done to save the marriage. It would've been much better if her husband had given his sexuality more thought before getting married.

> Maybe when our society allows people to love
> who they want to love freely

Here's a better wispy daydream: Maybe when our society compels people to think responsibly about the choices they're making before they have children, our least-defended population won't be savaged by this gratuitous, frostbitten heartbreak.

Yep... I like my daydream better.

Effing mormons, the whole lot of them need to be rounded up and lobotomised. Worst modern day religion just behind scientology and islam

@Lujlp: "Effing mormons, the whole lot of them need to be rounded up and lobotomised."

Were you talking about celery lovers?

His wife even offered to have an "arrangement" where he could be with his lover.

Upon what foundation do we deny people polygamy or polyandry?

This comes back to personal decisions by the involved parties, not a government mandate.

Essentially marriage is a pre-defined contract that the state(s) uphold. I see nothing wrong with changing it to have three or four (or more) lines.

As with the DADT rule -- you are asking a 18 (or 17 or 19 year old) to determine they are right thinking at the time. The 18 year old joins the military and goes from RubesBurg, ND to Andrews AFB, DC. Do the social mores change? What is considered acceptable has now changed?

Can you tell me that at 18 you were absolutely sure of your sexual orientation?

I'm throwing this stuff out that those who want to draw absolutes -- very little is absolute.

Terminal velocity on earth is:

Based on wind resistance, for example, the terminal velocity of a skydiver in a belly to earth free-fall position is about 195 km/h (122 mph or 55 m/s).

On the moon it would be about 1600 miles per hour.

I will argue against moral relativism -- I will argue for practical relativism. If you had a planet that one of every three males were brought to term survived -- what would you do?

What if it were 3 men for every woman (China now). What would you do?

What if every couple had twins (fraternal opposite sex). How would you handle it?

I'm just saying -- before jumping to a conclusion, ask what lays behind it.

I find some things unacceptable regardless of culture: Death, torture, rape, etc. But some things are negotiable as long as all parties are consenting.

"Can you tell me that at 18 you were absolutely sure of your sexual orientation?"

I can, but the main thing is that if someone is confused, they shouldn't marry, much less have kids. I think most gay men know by age 18 that they DON'T know...that they're having conflicting thoughts about their sexuality. Some probably marry just to quell those thoughts, but that's not a good excuse to walk out on a marriage with kids. Breaking up a family just to pursue sexual fulfillment is pretty pathetic.

I mean, think of it another way. Many straight people, especially guys, question their ability to stay monogamous. Those people simply shouldn't marry unless they're sure they can, despite the temptations.

Why? Why is a three-way contract more of the government's business than a (gay or straight) twofer?

Yeah, but who's creating the wealth, anyway?

I wonder if you threw a homosexual, a bisexual, and a heterosexual off a bridge if they would all land at the same time....

That sounds like a Stephen Wright joke.

"I don't care if you want to marry three people, but you shouldn't get to get government benefits for more than one."

An easier way to do it is to eliminate any government benefits to marriage all together including the marriage PENALTY in the tax code. See how easy that is? Problem solved.

It is remarkable how often people think "the way we do it here and now is the best way."

So now, two guys buggering each other is a "marriage," but two sisters who take a husband is not.

Actually, throughout much of Thailand's history, sisters often married one male.

I don't know when Western church/states started enforcing the one-man-one-wife stuff, it would be interesting to know.

Conventional mores are incredibly powerful, and almost impossible for women to buck.

Women in Latin America and SE Asia routinely went topless in hot weather, prior to the 1950s, and thought little of it.

Try getting an American women to go topless even in Atlanta in August--yet they think they are liberated. Compared to who? Yet, many Westeners look down their snouts at Islamic dress codes--in other words, the way we dress here and now is the right way. Not too much (Islamic) and not too little (pre-Westernized cultures).

The way we are here and now is best! Candide anyone?

Crid, you're daydream is great, but not possible as long as there is such pressure for someone to pretend to be straight. I won't claim that people will never divorce again or be irresponsible when it comes to parenting, but I wonder how many less people will enter into marriages and have kids because they think that's what's expected of them.

I don't think any person who marries and then comes out as gay thinks of it as a choice.

I don't buy the 'societal pressure' excuse. Someone who's been married and then claims that they've been gay all along is basically admitting that they'd lied to, and manipulated, their spouse for years. This isn't the 1930's, no one's going to put you in an institution for being gay.

What I suspect is happening in many of these situations is that someone determines that they're gay and then rationalizes it by convincing themselves that they've been that way all along. I know a woman who'd done this. She'd been married for over ten years and then had an affair with another woman and it broke up her marriage. Of course she claimed that she was really a lesbian her whole life. But she was basing this on the fact that she'd fooled around with a girl in college, and that she got aroused from lesbian porno. She'd never regarded herself as a lesbian until she stepped out on her marriage.

I don't buy the 'societal pressure' excuse.

I wouldn't be so sure about this. The pressure to conform is tremendous.

no one's going to put you in an institution for being gay

No, but maybe your father will stop speaking to you and cut you out of the will. Maybe your mother will cry because she's never going to get those grandchildren she dreamed about. Maybe your friends will all look at you like you're going to jump their tender bones at the slightest provocation. Maybe you'll never have the normal life you've been told for decades will make you happy and prosperous. Or maybe you just never realized doing what you want to do is an option, so you end up shattering multiple lives in a snit of "self-realization" at 40.

From the gay friends I know, they all have different stories about when and why they came out but they all knew they were gay from a very early age. Some denied it even to themselves not because they feared being thrown in an institution but because they came from religious families that they felt would not accept them. The fear was that they would be perceived as weird or perverted so it was easier to act straight. I dated a guy in my senior year of high school and the year after. He later came out as gay. I didn't feel manipulated or fooled. In fact, after he came out, a lot made sense to me.

@lovelysoul: I don't watch the @$$ and his 4 concubines. I hope he gets thrown in jail.

As far as the voodoo conversion therapy goes, maybe the leader doth protest too much. Will some rentboy, in the near future, be "handling his luggage?"

> not possible as long as there is
> such pressure for someone to pretend
> to be straight

Yer right, fuckit... Let's throw the kids overboard. Grownups want what they want, right? T'hell with the little shits.

It is amazing how this "I gotta be me" culture accepts coming out as gay (or down trodden in some other way} as a socially acceptable excuse for kicking over the traces and abandoning your ethical and moral obligations to children, and other family members.
As far as the gay reeducation camps, at least attendance is voluntary as opposed to court ordered like drug treatment, and there is no evidence that either is particularly effective so who cares?

"I gotta be me"

Episcopal deacon Gene Robinson got married in 1972 (though he knew he was gay) and had 2 kids before be publicly came out and left his wife & family to move into a new house with his male partner. That didn't put a crimp in his ecclesiastical career - he made the headlines by being elected as the first openly gay Episcopal bishop. At the time I thought WTF? Isn't a minister, even from a liberal church, supposed to set some high standards for his congregation? If he had been heterosexual, and left his wife & family to shack up with the church organist, he would have been condemned & considered a scumbag by all, instead of being rewarded with the highest clerical office in sight. Why was the identical behavior considered heroic just because he was gay?

A polygynous society (1 man, several women in a marriage) has the danger of violence from lonely, unfulfilled men. As I recall, it has been asserted that polygyny in muslim societies is one reason for all these suicide bombers. I don't want to go there.

"A polygynous society (1 man, several women in a marriage) has the danger of violence from lonely, unfulfilled men. As I recall, it has been asserted that polygyny in muslim societies is one reason for all these suicide bombers. I don't want to go there."

And yet we are not seeing any suicide bombers from China where young men outnumber the women three to one due to the once child policy and forced abortion. So could it be that Arab Muslim culture is the problem and not polygamy at all?

"I think lesbian porn is really hot, but I'm very straight. I see a tall, intelligent-looking guy-guy walk into a room and I'll get a little buzzy. I see a gorgeous woman walk into a room and I'll get interested in where she got her shoes."

I have no reaction like that at all. When I see a tall good looking man or even a short one, I first see him as a piece of human artwork. Unless I spend enough time with him to really start to like the way he smells and the sound of his voice, I will usually never think of him as anything other than androgynous. Women on the other hand, I notice nice teeth and a well done haircut or makeup job, and also a good figure but her shoes never cross my mind. No buzz there either. :-)

I dated a guy in my senior year of high school and the year after. He later came out as gay. I didn't feel manipulated or fooled. In fact, after he came out, a lot made sense to me.

Posted by: Kristen

Would you have felt fooled had you got married, had three kids, and he decided to leave you just before you went back to finish college?

"Would you have felt fooled had you got married, had three kids, and he decided to leave you just before you went back to finish college?"

I don't think anyone here is saying that people don't get hurt in those situations nor did I say I wasn't hurt. I loved him and felt a tremendous rejection so of course I would have felt fooled. What I am saying is thankfully he felt comfortable enough with me and his family that he was able to come out and not continue the farce of dating women. Not everyone has the support, the emotional maturity, or the courage.

"Yer right, fuckit... Let's throw the kids overboard. Grownups want what they want, right? T'hell with the little shits."

I'm trying to figure out when I said or implied that. I've missed you Crid. I've also missed your misinterpretations of what I've said. Nobody said fuck the kids because the grown ups want what they want. What I did say is I hope that certain changes in acceptance will prevent those situations from happening although we will never live in a perfect world or even a close version of your idea of perfect.

"@lovelysoul: I don't watch the @$$ and his 4 concubines. I hope he gets thrown in jail."

I find it interesting because it shows exactly why most of us assume this wouldn't work - the jealousy between the females. Polygamists have long acted like all is well and that this doesn't happen because they've probably felt that they must act as if it works perfectly, but this show reveals what we've all suspected - the women feel jealousy towards each other.

It's pretty fascinating. They seem like basically good people, and most of the women came from polygamist families, so this is what they were raised with. I find it a very interesting show, which just confirms why I wouldn't want to be polygamist.

But they have like 15 children, and, quite frankly, seem to be doing a better job keeping the family together and raising good kids than most modern families. We can't keep a union of 2 together, and they're doing it with 5.

Personally lovelysoul, I am in agreement with some of your points. While I agree that a one woman, one man stable marriage is the ideal for raising children, I don't think that the serial multiple marriages and divorces with lots of cheating and emotional turmoil on the side, (that over half of the American population seems to find acceptable) is superior in any way to a stable polygamous relationship, or a stable same sex relationship. Too many people want to draw the line at what is moral and ethical in the same place as what is legal. I think they are kidding themselves.

> I hope that certain changes in acceptance
> will prevent those situations from happening

Why wait? When adults behave responsibly, we're already there, and these sitches don't happen. The problem isn't that they need "acceptance"... Quite the opposite.

> although we will never live in a perfect
> world or even a close version of your
> idea of perfect.

Riiiiight... Actually, you gave us a twofer. First was the part where an adult who's expected to practice the most fundamental impulse control is said to be burdened by standards of "perfection"... Kind of a mix of straw man and (inverted) lowballing argument. And then you tacked on that "your idea of perfect" thing, which has overtones of 'opinions are like assholes'... To which a favorite response is 'Yeah, but some opinions are back up with better things than shit.'

Mostly, I think your position is a feminine one, the kind which truly bitter guys call psycho: No matter what happens, you want people to make babies, and under no circumstance should they be prevented (or even discouraged) from doing so, no matter what the cost (as borne by children or anyone else). I seriously think this kind of reproduction robot is making the decisions in many girly hearts.

But golly, if this is another of my misinterpretations, be sure and point out what I missed. Because when you pretend that legally and morally independent adults are just slaves to social pressure, I don't see why they should be credited with any decency whatsoever.
_______________________________

OFFTOPIC— Can we all agree that Zimmer's "Time" theme from the LAX arrival scene at the end of "Inception" is one of the best pieces of movie music in the last ten years or so?

Ok, great. Thanks for saying so.

Nothing in the quoted passage is as creepy as most gay pride parades, or the famous Folsom event.

But he fits a very clear stereotype:

My motivation for undertaking this wild project stems from several factors. First, I was raised in the Mormon church

... uh-huh, axe-grinding former Mormon. Who must not only prove his liberal bona fides, but must also shout down the demons in his own mind. Why don't I expect any objectivity?

Second, while the ex-gay movement has publicly declared they can bring "freedom from homosexuality," there's no evidence that someone can change his or her orientation through these religiously motivated programs.

Well, no - this is just a lie. Peer reviewed journals of psychology documented successful resolution of homosexuality up until the 70s, when activists forced them to stop publishing those articles.

And the feminist movement urged an entire generation of women (including a cousin of mine) to "explore their lesbian potential" and many of them moved on to heterosexuality after years of identifying as lesbian.

And the saddest bit of misinformation:

Third, these programs are dangerous. Ex-gay watchdog groups document the stories of men who, after years of failed attempts to become straight, resort to suicide.

... which pales in comparison to the high rates of substance abuse and suicide in the out-n-proud gay "community". When "well-adjusted" gays commit suicide 4-5 times more frequently than the general population, it takes a lot of chutzpah to call ex-gay counseling a "danger".

In fact, most of the people who try to heal their homosexuality benefit from the process - even if they remain homosexual, they resolve childhood traumas and gain insight into their more self-destructive behaviors.

But why let the facts disturb a nice self-righteous rant?

Right, cause encouraging someone into beating their daddy to death in effigy is perfectly normal behavior, right?

While I believe that most people who are gay, are really gay, I'm sure there are some basically straight people who've had traumatic experiences steer them away from straight sex. And vice versa.

So I could see how this sort of counseling could help some people.

"Mostly, I think your position is a feminine one, the kind which truly bitter guys call psycho: No matter what happens, you want people to make babies, and under no circumstance should they be prevented (or even discouraged) from doing so, no matter what the cost (as borne by children or anyone else). I seriously think this kind of reproduction robot is making the decisions in many girly hearts."

Actually I think its terrible that anyone can become a parent. I don't think any one group holds the prize for being irresponsible. I know many bad parents, very bad parents, and while some are single parents, some are also married which is why I talk about things to educate people in hopes of preventing problems. Its easy to just say "be responsible and suck it up," but how has that worked out so far? I'm the first to admit I've made some major mistakes in my life and I hope that someone could learn from what I did wrong and do it better than I did. You can call it feminine but I don't take that as an insult although I have a feeling it was meant as one. So again, where is the part where I said go fuck up everyone else's life so you can be happy? What I said was I wish that people wouldn't be so afraid of coming out for whatever reason but often acceptance. You can say, "be a big boy" but again, how has that worked out so far?

> Peer reviewed journals of psychology
> documented successful resolution
> of homosexuality up until the 70s,
> when activists forced them
> to stop publishing

BD, would you concede that narratives of "successful resolution of homosexuality" might conclude with and then he blew me like a trumpet or and then he loved me until the day he died?

I haven't bothered to count, but we have to be approaching two dozen times that you've seized the topic of homosexuality with tremendous wind and ferocity. (We could count if you want. It might go something like this... And how 'bout that, I was right.)

And each time the topic comes up, you offer precisely the same unfounded, blind & deaf presumption: That we all agree with you that homosexuality itself is a problem to be resisted... Or in today's comment, "resolved".

This makes you seem like a naive hillbilly.

No? OK, well, the other option is that you have a deeply personal problem at work here. What else could it be? You never describe the particular harm, physical or emotional, that could come to someone from this behavior.

We needn't seek recourse in the popular stupidities about "homophobia": If you're actually afraid of homosexuality, it's because of an individual experience for you or your loved ones. We don't know the details, and we don't know the other side of the story...

...And we are not asking. But as our mighty sewer of rhetoric flows ever-onward here, you should consider that your momentary blockages aren't thoughtful, convincing, or accepted as evidence of shared set of humanist values. Homosexuality is a kind of love. Sometimes love gets out of hand. But until harm is shown –not presumed, but shown– good people will assume that your resentment at the fulfillment enjoyed by others is a typical kind of jealousy.

Don't be gay, Steve.

Also, I am the Master of Time and Space.

Seriously, how did I know he was going to say that ten minutes from now?

DAMN, I'm good.

I loves me some Crid.

I'm not being gay. But if necessary, I'll pay to get straightened out.

Also, I am the Master of Time and Space.

I now have more evidence that Crid is God than I do that God is God.

Own that truth, OK? Feel its power.

Amy,

There's the evidence you asked for in the Ricky Gervais thread. :)

"PS. What the heck is wrong with celery? ;)"

You can't recognize a bunch of stalkers when you see them?

I woke up yesterday and opened the paper to the comics and had a laugh.
And then I cancelled my subscription.

Crid steps in it:

I haven't bothered to count, but we have to be approaching two dozen times that you've seized the topic of homosexuality with tremendous wind and ferocity. (We could count if you want. It might go something like this... And how 'bout that, I was right.)

Run it with my name and you get 22 results.
Run it with your name and you get over 250 results.

So who's obsessed, mamaleh?

It's childish and churlish to stamp your feet and cancel your subscription.

No it isn't. It's bitchy and it feels good. ;)

I didn't cancel my subscription-- it was a lame attempt at sarcasm without emoticons. Whatever.

I'm the only one in my apartment complex that subscribes to the local paper. My landlords living in the building are graduates of U Penn and Mills College and they don't even subscribe, the gay slumlords. They might be property owners, but I'm morally superior.

> So who's obsessed

I'm obsessed with giving children a loving mother with a loving father.

You're obsessed with how strangers wiggle their privates at each other.

There's a difference.

(Sorry, K., I went after BD in the predawn darkness with sleep in my eyes, and didn't see you standing there, waiting for a beat-down of your own. Here we are— )

> Its easy to just say "be responsible
> and suck it up," but how has that
> worked out so far?

Well Goddamn it, we don't know, because you won't try it. Children's lives get savaged by ADULTS, specifically by idiot adults who mismanage their sexuality, GROWN MEN AND WOMEN, and all you can do is mutter something about what society allows people to do, as if their own adult volition, or their own adult cowardice, or their own reproductive connivance were not a factor... Not even for the traffic they bring to their underpants.

After all these years, it's not possible that you, or THEY, don't understand what's happening on some level. Faced with rhetoric of this magnitude, I can only conclude that some people WANT children to suffer. They WANT oblivious, fresh spirits to be ravaged by these cruelties and deprivations... They/you LIKE how kids –suffering with bitter parental separations– are befuddled by trying to decide how much of the problem is that God in Heaven just doesn't like them specifically, and how much of the problem is that the people who gave them life and should be expected to care for them are just selfish fucktards.

You want to spread the pain, or you sincerely think it's good for them... Whatever.

Crids got a point Ben, he' obsessed with gay marriage, you with gay sex

(Sorry, K., I went after BD in the predawn darkness with sleep in my eyes, and didn't see you standing there, waiting for a beat-down of your own. Here we are— )

No worries, Crid. I had a feeling it was aimed at me. I'd write more but I have to get back out. Its exhausting trying to figure out ways to continue the suffering of kids all on my own.

Sometimes I get so upset I just want to cuss and spit.

> opened the paper to the comics and had a laugh.

I seen better.

> You can't recognize a bunch of stalkers
> when you see them?

Good, but MonicaP was funnier.