I'm only half listening -- does Bill really not understand how tides work?

I think there are many, many people who don't believe in God and go to church for the societal reasons that Amy mentioned.

I was talking to my brother just the other day about this subject. He was saying that, although he knew it was bullshit, he had always taken his children to church as they were growing up. He lived in a Bible belt area and didn't want them facing ridicule. Also, he wanted them to be able to speak intelligently about something that is such an integral part of our culture.

He also spoke of how proud he was when his oldest son was a young teenager. They were taking a long walk and his son said, "All that God stuff doesn't really make any sense, does it?"

He was very happy that his son hadn't lost his critical thinking abilities throughout the church years.

I didn't raise my children like that at all -- I think it's a bit disingenuous, but I saw his point and I visited him a few times while he was living in that very Southern community. His family would have definitely been ostracized had they not attended church.

I'll bet there are very many people in the pews across this country who are there for reasons other than worshipping what they see as a fairy tale.

"I'm only half listening -- does Bill really not understand how tides work?"

No, Jerry, he doesn't. Does that surprise you?

I was just watching Stephen Colbert's latest episode on the Internet. He got his hooks into this very interview and it was very funny. You can see it on colbertnation.com

He rips into Bill O'Reilly in pretty good order for not knowing what causes tides. He also has a very funny remark about this Silverman fella's choice of facial hair.

I will give a damn what atheist think about my faith when I see Hitchins homeless shelters and Dawkins leper colonies popping up everywhere. Till then laugh, mock and whatever you freedom of speech allows you to do.

I do believe in God(s) though not as described in the Bible. We moved to a new country and decided to join the Church for community and cultural reasons. I consider myself ethnically Christian.

Josephine, there are plenty of secular charities.

I am sure many, if not most, struggle with their faith. I know I do, however I feel no need to question the sensibilities of those who believe differently or not at all. I am always in disbelief at the "moral" superiority projected by either side. To each his own, I suppose.

I grew up in a predominantly Catholic neighborhood. I don't think that its that people don't believe in God and go to church for the feeling of community as much as I believe that they don't really have much knowledge of the Bible even after 10 years of catechism, making Communion, and Confirmation. It was just the expected thing to do not what they chose to become after researching all the options. I wasn't Catholic and didn't send my kids to religion though I do believe in God and two out of three of my kids do as well. I just didn't feel the need to belong to organized religion. Actually I hate it, and my daughter wants to go to private school for high school and the only choice is Catholic school. A great education but she can't go without taking religion courses.

I try not to make fun of people's religious beliefs but I do have a friend from high school who moved down south and became some form of Southern Baptist crossed with Born Again. We had been friends on FB but I couldn't take his constant statuses preaching about "The Lord." His business was failing, he couldn't pay his bills and his statuses became about begging for money and that if it was "The Lord's will" then people would help him out. The final straw was when after posting asking for someone to come mow his lawn for free as an act of charity, he posted that he was going to take a 45 minute nap and if "The Lord" truly loved him he'd wake up to freshly cut grass. I posted back, "that's a lot of pressure to put on God. Don't you think He has more important things to worry about than your lawn? How bout skip the nap and mow it yourself. I think He'd be pleased." He unfriended me which was fine because I wondered why I hadn't unfriended him earlier.

I am a believer of God but I don't go to Church. I have plenty of friends and a solid professional repuration so I don't need the 'community'. I prefer to worship and pray in the privacy of my own home and then go on with my life.
I personally find the politics and the "business" of most church's to be incredibly hypocritical and prefer not to be associated with the nonsense that they have unfortunately come to be known for.
I don't need to go to church or go around proclaiming to everyone to be a believer. I just try to live by example. I also aknowledge that I am human and am gonna fuck up. A lot. I swear, I drink wine like it's going out of style, I don't tithe, and I understand and appreciate the science behind things. I also admit to struggling with my faith from time to time as I am sure most Christians do.

I am always suspicious of those who are preaching the loudest about their faith and about how much they go to Church. They are usually the ones who tend to use their "Christianity" to behave like boors and make the rest of us look bad.

I'm an atheist and I wish this guy would just shut up. I don't understand his need to validate his personal beliefs by questioning those of others. If people want to believe in a magic man in the sky, it's fine with me. I don't feel that I need to bash them for their beliefs. Live and let live. (Now, when they decide that they need to kill the infidels, I start to have a problem with it.)

I've gone to church all my life, even in college, and never known someone who admitted not believing but going. I question his sample size for his assumptions.

Questioning faith, sure, everyone does that, it wouldn't be healthy not to. That is not the same thing.

I adore our church. It's episcopalian, but more interested in doing good than sitting and worshipping. Our "service" in early december was filling boxes with goodies to ship to soldiers in afganistan. We visit nursing homes and assemble and done goods to pregnancy assistance centers. Ditto for the childrens home here. Find me an atheist group that does that. Find me an atheist group that runs hundreds of not-for-profit hospitals. Find me an atheist group that runs shelters and meal centers and food pantries and clothes closets. Find me an atheist group that will help a woman keep and support a baby she wants. Till you can, your arguments fall rather flat.

Nichole k,

Name one atheist, not state run but purely atheist, homeless shelter. Or unwed mothers home? Or soup kitchen? Even the orgs that do Christmas gifts for kids are Christian.. That's logical though.

I'm serious name just one. It doesn't even have to be a leper colony. You'd never find anything like that anyway..

Al,

I love you. Seriously you be respectful to ke and I will return the favor.. Actually I would do that anyway..

Momof4,

Precisely my point. A real charity that helps people is more than likely religious. What do atheist contribut to society? The hemlock society and planned parenthood.

"I will give a damn what atheist think about my faith when I see Hitchins homeless shelters and Dawkins leper colonies popping up everywhere. Till then laugh, mock and whatever you freedom of speech allows you to do."

And subtly, that freedom of speech is disparaged.

Know what you get when you offer something for free? People lining up to get free stuff. Feed the hungry? Get more hungry people.

But there's an alternative.

Meanwhile, Dawkins and Hitchens are telling the truth. What is the alternative, I wonder, and is it really excusable because it's "religion"?

Josephine, it is my online experience that, given the freedom of speech, religious people lie. Big. Constantly. And in groups.

Anything goes, so long as the result is some kind of affirmation of the Bible™. Uhh, that part, not that other part. No, not that way, this way!

I find this galling, because the affiant invariably holds up his or her "faith" as defense. What a way to make faith itself filthy!

Charity is a good thing. Lying to maintain the power of a religious institution is not. Lying to preserve one's ego is not.

The principal lesson of Jesus™, whether or not he really existed, is that the unheralded sacrifice for another is sublime. I suggest that this is not supported by most of the things religious activists are doing in the news today.

How is Gary doing?

Rad that is a great thing and I think it is wonderful. However it does fuck all for people who's houses have burned down or have lost their jobs. These people don't need a 25$ loan to start a business, which would never work in the us anyway, they need help getting back on their feet, recovering from the effects of child abuse or getting off the dependent cycle of the welfare state.

If someone has lost their job and are starving and freezing you don't loan them 25$ and tell them to work it out..

You know why Nashville survived the flood this year and recovered without anyone but the national gaurd, my brother included there, helping.. Here I will give you a hint.. It's because we live in the _ _ _ _ _ belt.. Ideas have consequences and so do beliefs. You want proof these people who go to church believe in God? You shall know them by their fruits(and yeah I know that will be twisted around here in a minute). And we don't do it because we are afraid some magic sky dude will smite us if we don't. We do it because "he so loved the world".

Well, whatever...

Rad,

I am not a creationist and have no knowledge of that controversy.. I will take your word for it because I don't care enough to look it up.

And just FYI.. I would absolutely fight and die for your right to believe whatever floats you boat. I may disagree and tell of why I do but I won't call you an idiot or delusional for not believing in god.

Amy,

Not every person who created a religious charity was involved in an organized religion. Many of the earlier ones for instance.. I will have to look them up. And the ones who are from organized faiths don't usually do it to get people to convert. My sister for instance, when she was unwed and pregnant was required to come to church on Sunday's to get help. My catholic church requires nothing of you..

I have never seen an atheist say that they loved the world so much they were going to create a charity to help people live. I have heard of an atheist helping a friend and I understand you are good people, hell we are nearly alike except I am religious and have kids, but no charities.. Atleast not any that are focused on sustaining life instead of extinguishing it.

And the societies that have been created by atheists prove it can be done. You can organize groups of people who are atheists. You just can't get a group together to help others.

>>I have never seen an atheist say that they loved the world so much they were going to create a charity to help people live.

Then maybe, JosephineMO7, you simply haven't looked hard enough?

wiki on the background to the international charity "Doctors Without Borders":

"Médecins Sans Frontières was created in 1971 by a small group of French doctors and journalists in the aftermath of the Biafra secession, who believed that all people have the right to medical care regardless of race, religion, creed or political affiliation, and that the needs of these people outweigh respect for national borders.[2]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%A9decins_Sans_Fronti%C3%A8res

Odd they do drives for that group all the time at my church. They take everthing from cipro to crutches..

And where does it say it is an atheist org? it's statment of who deserves care is exactly the same as the catholic churches..

I watched some, maybe most, of the interview, but I had to stop because the way they talk over each other drives me batshit.

On one hand,O'Reilly's ignorance about tides is just sad. He's more insulting to the religious community than Silverman. However, I also don't care for the "everybody KNOWS" argument.

It didn't take long for me to realize I had better things to do than listen to those two smug fools try to keep each other from getting a word in edgewise.

Odd they do drives for that group all the time at my church. They take everthing from cipro to crutches..

About as odd as me donating to religious charities, which I do, even as an atheist.

My whole life I have questioned what I was taught in church, but my mom forced me to go despite my protests. When I was six and we were learning about Genesis, I asked our pastor what day the dinosaurs were created in front of the entire congregation. He didn’t give me a very satisfactory answer.

I spent years doing similar things - protesting bible study because I didn't agree with it, pointing out the inconsistencies of the old testament, leading the other children in a rebellion against the newly built church because I felt that the money they received from donations should have gone to charities rather than a new building and once I launched a silent protest on the lawn because I had been told in Sunday School to not ask any more questions. If you can’t question something, how can you follow it?

I believe one woman told my mom I was a "terror".

Oddly, no one seemed surprised when I announced I was an atheist being forced to attend and after that I would sit in the youth pastor's office during the sermon. The minute I graduated from high school, I refused to go to church.

Now, years later, my family still tries to pressure me to go and “stop denying my faith”. They seem to get upset when I respond back, “I don’t believe in mythology.”

The only thing I miss about it was the sense of community - doing things together and helping one another. For a few years I volunteered at a charity and found a community there. So ultimately the only positive I found in church was available other ways.

I may have been more vocal than some, but I don’t think that I was the only one who saw little worth in attending other than seeing friends once a week.

I have never seen an atheist say that they loved the world so much they were going to create a charity to help people live.

Check out http://www.positiveatheism.org/mail/eml9553.htm.

>>And where does it say it is an atheist org? it's statment of who deserves care is exactly the same as the catholic churches..

Oh, I see now how it doesn't meet your criteria, JosephineM07.
(Sorry!)

"Precisely my point. A real charity that helps people is more than likely religious. What do atheist contribut to society? The hemlock society and planned parenthood."

What's wrong with Planned Parenthood? An organization that isn't just about abortion although I personally admire the people that provide a safe and legal abortion to women who cannot afford it just as I admire the clinic workers who face dangers on a regular basis from religious zealots who would hurt people in the name of their cause. That's besides the point though. Planned Parenthood also provides gynecological care, for low-income women. You don't have to believe in certain things but to deny someone healthcare because it doesn't fit your criteria of help is ridiculous.
The Hemlock Society which by the way is now called Compassion & Choices helps the terminally ill. When my father was in his last stages of cancer, completely morphined out and about 70 pounds, doctors wanted to put him on dialysis. I'm not sure how you can justify dragging out a man's last days especially when in agonizing pain, but I'll take Compassion & Choices over that any day. I have a close friend going through terminal cancer now. She is a very devout Catholic and struggling to find a way to get out of the pain. I don't know how anyone could find comfort in a God that would punish someone for wanting to end their life in a peaceful and dignified way, and especially when the quality of life is so poor and the end is not in question.
That being said, I do believe in God but I don't use it as a weapon against people who don't or to live in smug superiority to others. You may not find an Atheist based charity simply because Atheism is a personal choice and not organized. Isn't that really the point?

I am not a very religious person but have definite spiritual beliefs. I have an open question for all atheists out there but before I ask it, let's be clear on definitions:

Atheist - Someone who adamantly, absolutely believes there's nothing more out there than one can see, hear, and/or touch; definitely no higher power that created mankind.

Agnostic - Someone who's not really sure if there's a higher power or not but is open to the possibility and generally waiting for proof.

Given that, I have a simple question for atheists, for which I have never received a straightforward, reasonable answer:

Since 'something' can't be created from 'nothing', how did we get here?

N.B. If your response is "The Big Bang", please then explain where the material & energy prior to this event came from.

I'm a UU, I get my cake and eat it too.

Robert - who's N.B.? Anyway, your question is tiresome. Cosmologists may have theories about our universe's birth (I don't know what they are offhand). Nonetheless, something CAN come from nothing - look up Vacuum Energy. And if your answer is GODDIDIT, please provide the evidence.

My answer: I don't know, and I don't need a God to fill my gap. You postulate that something can't be created from nothing. How do you know that's true?

Joshephine, if you ignore the illogic of the whole super hero aspect of God, the thing that grinds me most about religion is its altruistic imperitive. Here is Ayn Rand on altruism and charity:

"The fact that a man has no claim on others (i.e., that it is not their moral duty to help him and that he cannot demand their help as his right) does not preclude or prohibit good will among men and does not make it immoral to offer or to accept voluntary, non-sacrificial assistance.

It is altruism that has corrupted and perverted human benevolence by regarding the giver as an object of immolation, and the receiver as a helplessly miserable object of pity who holds a mortgage on the lives of others—a doctrine which is extremely offensive to both parties, leaving men no choice but the roles of sacrificial victim or moral cannibal . . . .

To view the question in its proper perspective, one must begin by rejecting altruism’s terms and all of its ugly emotional aftertaste—then take a fresh look at human relationships. It is morally proper to accept help, when it is offered, not as a moral duty, but as an act of good will and generosity, when the giver can afford it (i.e., when it does not involve self-sacrifice on his part), and when it is offered in response to the receiver’s virtues, not in response to his flaws, weaknesses or moral failures, and not on the ground of his need as such."

JosephineMO7,

What does charity have to do with faith? I have plenty of faith and can still not support a single one of those faith based charities. (In fact, I don't support the Salvation Army. But more on that later.)

There may not be a lot of "Atheist" charity's but that doesn't mean that there aren't Atheist's giving charity.
Just because a charity is faith based doesn't mean that everyone involved actually believes in God and it certainly doesn't mean there isn't the possibility for corruption.
I can name a few non faith based charity's. Big ones.

The ASPCA isn't run by a religious organization but I'll be damned if anyone is going to say they aren't doing any good.

I don't believe the American Red Cross is faith based either. They do more good than a dozen faith based organizations alone.

Doctors Without Borders isn't faith based but those are some damn fine doctors VOLUNTEERING to help provide medical care to other countries.

Big Brothers, Big Sisters is not a faith based volunteer organization.

Toys for Tots. Not faith based.

And while, most of these charity's did recieve some govt funding they are mostly supported by private donations.

The Fisher House Foundation is not faith based but one of the best veteran/military charitable orgainizations out there. And it entirely publicly and privately funded.

Planned Parenthood... (which you seem to think is the DEVIL!) while not everyone agrees on them, I think it's better than nothing at all and certainly better than the alternative. They do a lot of good in urban areas. What faith based charity do you know that's willing to give a condom to a young teenage girl to keep her from getting pregnant in the first place? None. They would rather preach abstinence and then help(read: force) her bring another unwanted baby that they can't take care of into the world.

Now, since you also seem so adamant that govt funded charities are so bad...

Goodwill, a huge faith based charity got $444 in revenue last year from the govt and only $37 million for "other sources" (i.e. donations).

The Salvation Army, another faith based organization also received millions of dollars in govt funding last year. More than it did in private donations.

So did countless other faith based organizations popping up all over the country. In fact, ALL the large faith based organizations have received govt funding at some point or another.

Now, if the faith based charity's are so much better than the secular ones, why do they need so much govt money to get by? Where are all the Christian dollars?

Charity is charity. As long as the money is going where it's suppossed to go and the organization is doing what it's supossed to do, then why does it matter if it's faith based or not?

And I ask again, what does Charity have to do with someones faith or lackthereof anyway?

"You define atheism that way"

Nope, mirriam-webster does. It's not "atheist: someone who sees no reason to believe" it's "atheist: one who BELIEVES that there is no deity".

" then help (read: force)"

No one can be forced to give birth here, any more than they can be forced to abort. Nice try though. And FYI, federal law states even the catholic church must tell you all your options including abortion when providing crisis pregnancy services.

If atheists don't want people sitting in churches that provide charity, and most of us here don't want the government taking our money for these programs, where do you think they'll come from?

Saying religions-who provide most of the medical care here in the US at least-are stuck in the lowest level of moral development is amusing, since there are, again, no atheist societies stepping up to fill the gap. Oh, that's right, government will. Swell!

At the risk of derailing the arguments about who gives more to charity, I'd like to drag this conversation back to Amy's original question:

"I suspect some or many people don't believe in god, but don't want to give up the sense of community they get from belonging to the particular house of worship. Come on, do they all really believe in god?"

I have to agree with Amy. I write as an observant Jew who keeps kosher and Sabbath, but who doesn't believe that the Bible is literally true except occasionally and by accident. I go to synagogue as a member of a community with shared history, values, and modes of expression. God? That's a more complicated issue.

Is this hypocritical? I think not. How is this different from an American who goes to a Fourth of July party but who doesn't believe that America is "the home of the free and the land of the brave"? Or a member of the Republican Party who thinks that abortion should be legal? We are (well, I am) a member of all sorts of groups whose goals I broadly agree with, even if I disagree about specific beliefs or policies.

Consider the smallest possible community: a man and woman, a parent and child. Do you *always* love your spouse/parent/kid? I suspect not. Does that invalidate the continuing relationship with that person, or make you a hypocrite for signing your emails "Love"? I don't think so.

There's more than one reason to go to your place of worship. Community, free food, socializing, enjoying the music: these are all valid reasons.

@ MonicaP,

Odd they do drives for that group all the time at my church. They take everything from cipro to crutches..

About as odd as me donating to religious charities, which I do, even as an atheist.***

No I meant I had assumed it was a catholic org.. And I am reading over the site you linked to.. Its interesting.. Though I tried it twice and it led to a 404. Removed the period at the end and I got there..

Also as I said I know Atheists can be moral people. Hell I was raised by a bisexual wiccan and I met many moral and good people who were not Christian.. Including some Buddhist who used to take us to their house for prayers to get us away from our horrid mother for a little while.Nice people, yummy food.

@Jody,

I was looking to see who founded the org and who ran it. I didn't see anything indicating that. The main reason I assumed it was Catholic was it has the same statement of treatment as the Catholic church.. It has nothing to do with my "criteria" just my curiosity..

@ Sabrina,

I never said atheists didn't give and I am completely opposed to the government support of charity. Not one damn dime should be forcibly removed from one person for the support of another and they damn sure shouldn't be supporting private Charities with tax payer money..

I have said many times on this very blog that the Catholic schools receiving funding from the government disgusts me. Its not right. And those who think it is can take their hatred of Muslim schools and cram it up their asses. Good old fashioned case of wanting Government money for their causes only.. I honestly think it goes back to that prayer of jabez BS.. Having the government money coming in makes them feel like God loves them.. Jerkoffs.

In other points... Clara Barton , founder of the red cross, was absolutely christian and considered her prayer for the soldiers she was treating as important as the medical care she was providing..

William Hendricks, The founder of Toys for Tots was undoubtedly a Christian, though the program was run through his connection with the Marines..

No idea about the boys and girls club. That has been around for ages. It seems to be multicultural now whatever it started as..

I don't care one whit for the ASPCA or any other related orgs.. I support the local animal shelters but the animal cops thing irritates me to no end.. Just another infringement of freedoms if you ask me. I dislike them about as much as dislike cops who take away everything a person has and jails them for the "horrible crime" of smoking pot..

And Yeah I am not fond of PP. Most of what they do is abortions and they get more than 300 million a year in government subsidies.

I don't think anyone should be getting money except the military and basic government functions. And groups that operate as nonprofit that have huge profits should get declassified as non profit.. Right after we take apart the IRS stone from stone.. That way the people can state exactly what they are. NO need to be a nonprofit because it wont matter.

Art.the.nerd,

I am for damn sure not going to church for the music. I am the product of a nonstandard upbringing so I don't get on well with the other people at my church, individually anyway.. I have to remind myself sometimes that I go for prayer and worship of the Christ. If I didn't go for that reasons I wouldn't go. I don't like the hours much nor do I have my kids in CIC. I can honestly say I have never sat down to a meal with more than one person I go to church with..

Its this simple. Either there is a God, Christ is his Son or I find a new Sunday hobby. Fellowship my ass we can start a Sunday D&D Campaign and get that with people we have far more in common with.

"If atheists don't want people sitting in churches that provide charity, and most of us here don't want the government taking our money for these programs, where do you think they'll come from?"

I didn't hear anyone saying they didn't want people sitting in churches. Or they didn't want anyone providing charity. We all pretty much agree that the govt should butt out though but I pretty much feel that way about ALL charity. Charity is just that. Charity. If people want to support a faith based charity, they will. If it's a good one, it will survive on it's own and not need govt dollars.

"No one can be forced to give birth here, any more than they can be forced to abort. Nice try though. And FYI, federal law states even the catholic church must tell you all your options including abortion when providing crisis pregnancy services."

Right, so because it's federal law that means that's what actually happens. Stop being so naive. No, they can't force anything but they sure can pressure the hell out of the young girl who wants an abortion to keep it. Or they can flat out deny to perform it, which, is also legal based on the religious affilition of the hospital. And you're wrong that most of the hospitals providing care are faith based.
The faith based one's just tend to be in more populated areas or wealther areas. And they are predominantly Catholic (which is a religion more in the business of faith if you ask me). And very expensive.

I argue as a Christian by the way. I just feel that too many "churches" have gotten way to cocky with themselves and so wrapped up in doing "good works" that they forget why they are doing it.
And, it was't the point of the thread anyway.

The question was pretty much "does everyone who goes to church actually believe in God and if not why do you go?" And most of us here said no we don't believe everyone who goes to church believes in God. Then you and Josephine had to go on your tyrades about Athiest and charity. I wrote my post to prove that it's not just religious groups and people that are charitable and faith has nothing to do with Charity. A person can have no faith in God and still give charity. Just like a person can attend Church services regularly and still not actually believe in God.

@ Josephine

How is "Animal Cops" an infringment of freedoms?
And someone going to jail for committing a crime is horrible to you? Look, I don't think pot should necassarily be illegal either but it is. So, since pot is illegal that means smoking pot is a crime. And people go to jail when they commit crimes. End of story. Until the law changes, it is what it is.

And great. You actually go to church because you believe. Wonderful. But, you are naive if you think that everyone at your church actually believes in God. There are people that are probably only there for the feel good feelings or sense of community or brotherhood it gives them. Or because they think they have to go or be ostrasized from thier family or community. Not all church goers are actually believers.

JosephineMO7,
I think we are talking past one another.

I offered Doctors Without Borders as an example of a non-church charity that works to give people better lives.

You then asked: "And where does it say it is an atheist org?"

I then simply acknowledged that if you only wanted examples of actively atheist charity organizations, then "Doctors..." didn't appear to fit your bill. (Since it certainly is not a charity that requires atheism from its members/supporters!)

Now that there have been a few responses after my earlier comment, let me add a few personal thoughts. I'm a "Recovering Catholic" (add your own punchline) and an agnostic. I don't know what more is out there but strongly suspect there is a higher power at work. Can I prove this? Nope. Might I be wrong? Absolutely.

When I look around at various people and their beliefs or lack of beliefs, I've come to some suppositions based on a lifetime of anecdotal evidence.

There are always exceptions, and Amy Alkon is a major one, but I've generally found atheists to be the nastiest pieces of work out there. "DaveG" fits that bill very well. I was polite and respectful and sincere. I didn't attack anyone but simply asked a question I was most curious about. Yet he felt the need to personally attack me. Why?

A growing trend I've found over the past decade is the need of many atheists to attack the belief system of Christians. Why? I don't believe everything that Christians, Jews, [peaceful] Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, or Sikhs do but I've never felt the need to attack them for holding the beliefs they do. For their beliefs are not a threat to me so why should I feel antipathy towards them?

As to Amy's comment about "my definition" of atheism, let me just quote verbatim what is found here
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/atheism :

–noun
1. the doctrine or belief that there is no god.
2. disbelief in the existence of a supreme being or beings.
Origin:
1580–90;

So please know that the way I described atheism earlier was precisely accurate of what the word means.

Which goes back to my original question, which I'll phrase in another way: Isn't an atheist simply a mirror-image of a fundamentalist religionist? In both cases, they are absolutely, positively sure of their beliefs.

Final thought: I find it endlessly amusing how so many atheists (who often call themselves "humanists") are 100% convinced of the Theory of Man-made Global Warming. And even as this theory is falling apart every month with more & more evidence coming to the fore, they won't budge away from their fundamentalist belief one iota. The moment after they're done telling an Al Gore Disbeliever that they're a "Denier" and an ignorant fool, they're then attacking Christians for their beliefs. That, my friends, is the textbook definition of irony.

Jody we might well be talking past each other.. I don't care what the organization does.. Lets say you, being an atheist, decide to go out and start a 501 for guys without shirts. Lets say you focus on one group, beer bellied fat men who should wear shirts that cover their beer belly but can't afford them.. Lets say you call the Charity Shirts for Shitheads. You are an atheist trying to help someone else therefore you would fit the criteria. I wouldn't expect much support to go to a charity with that name or for a lot of people to ask for help from it but I would count it as an atheist charity.. My standard are just not that high. except the one that says you can't get tax money for support, that is an absolute.. I guess it would still count as a charity just not one I would give money to..

My curiosity however... well it runs pretty deep. I tend to like to know the story behind things.. Charities don't escape that tendency.. I hope my tone isn't coming off wrong I am genuinely trying to have a conversation.

Sabrina,

Yes pot is illegal. I don't care. It shouldn't be and they certainly shouldn't be going into peoples homes with guns because of a suspicion someone in there might have smoked some..

Same with animals. Am I for doing horrible things to animals? No.. But the animal cops, the people not the show, conduct swat style raids on people and aren't held accountable for it. Peoples antique rifles go missing and people get hurt. All for a suspicion that someone might be doing something wrong.. Think of it this way. Lets say the Catholic Church had a police force and was barging into peoples houses and shooting them because someone "may have been masturbating".. A bit of an overstep right.. A violation of someones natural freedoms.. Lets say someone is mistreating a dog- or shooting deer on his own property and his house gets raided, things of his gets smashed and other things come up missing. Stuff is taken in for evidence-and often never comes back, items are confiscated fines are charged, a persons life is turned upside down.. And all without a warrant or a real trial.. The ASPCA advocates for the laws that treat animal abuse cases like drug cases.. Which puts me in the *not a fan* category..

It all leaves too much room for abuse. It gives the government permission to treat certain population of people as a revenue source, to be raided whenever it pleases them without warrant or proof of wrong doing..

Just FYI I feel the same way about foster care.. I was in foster care and had more than a few foster sibling who had been taken away for truancy.. Not the mind melding abuse that people imagine when they imagine children being rescued from a home.

They are unnecessary government intrusions.. Uncle Sam is good at 2 things, killing people and building roads. It should stay out of pretty much everything else..

And I agree.. Not all people go to church because they believe. And no one who goes to church has never had a doubt.. But to say that many of them go to church and don't believe. That they go because of societal pressure or other equally shallow reason.. Nonsense. As I said I could find better, more fun things to do on a Sunday..

"Yes pot is illegal. I don't care. It shouldn't be and they certainly shouldn't be going into peoples homes with guns because of a suspicion someone in there might have smoked some.."

Way off topic here but I feel the need to address it and I'm addressing it as someone who has never done drugs but feel the war on drugs is a huge waste. I'm also in favor of legalizing pot. That being said....I don't know where you live but most big police departments do not go into anyone's home with guns drawn because they suspect someone may have smoked pot. My ex-husband works for the NYPD, my brother and many friends work for the Nassau County Police Department and I have close friends who work for the Suffolk County Police Department. Drug busts are primarily done after suspicion has been raised that occupants of a home are dealing out of that home or have created a meth lab. I have yet to hear of any cop going into any home and arresting someone for smoking weed. I also know from experience that most cops don't give a shit about a low level pot arrest. You'd have to be carrying an extroadinary amount to get picked up on a possession charge and again, nobody is banging your door down. I know many pot smokers who live productive lives as professionals and they've never been bothered by the cops. Ever. But they also don't smoke it and drive, deal it, or make a show of carrying huge amounts of it.

And as far as the ASPCA or any other animal groups. Don't confuse a group trying to save animals from being euthanized with a group like PETA. Many friends of mine volunteer for no-kill shelters and rescue dogs and cats. They genuinely want to save the animals. Maybe what Michael Vick did, to use an extreme example, does't bother you, but it sure bothers the hell out of me.

"Saying religions-who provide most of the medical care here in the US at least-are stuck in the lowest level of moral development is amusing, since there are, again, no atheist societies stepping up to fill the gap."

This is wrong on so many levels.

First off, do you have a figure for that medical care? Nearby, for hospitals, there is Doctor's, the Medical College of Georgia, Aiken Regional, University - and Trinity, which I only know about because I drove by it today while lost. Assuming Trinity is soome sort of religious hospital, that's 1 in 5; actually less, because Trinity is tiny and MCG is H-U-G-E.

{Irony: an assertion that "religions" provide medical care. If prayer really worked, it simply would not be necessary.}

Next, there is no need for atheists to form groups identifying themselves as atheists to coordinate any activity. They can use any existing facility, not being handicapped by trying to figure out which way to point what while begging.

Lastly, nothing about that should be amusing. Religious organizations are as true to the principles of their founders as Congress is to theirs - not very.

Robert W. - I suggest that you just don't know much about thermodynamics, and you have had to rely on editorial sources.

Take a look at this picture.

Questions:
Where is that energy coming from, and what is it doing?
Do you recognize that this is just a fraction of what is happening globally?
Do you recognize that lighting puts out a lot of energy as heat?
Do you recognize that power generation requires cooling towers, which release heat into the atmosphere, too?
How much energy can you get from a pound of coal, and how much CO2 does that produce?
Is that more or less than was in the atmosphere before it was burned?

Before you can argue about what something is doing, you have to establish just what it is!

Global climate arguments are not religious in nature (pun intended). This is so because data is available for all to see. I encourage you to look at data, not at the assertions of your favorite talking head, and do some thinking. There's no religious component, so there's no magic to contend with. (No, there isn't.)

Go look at the data. Any good source of data includes information on how the information was collected and the limitations inherent in the method of investigation.

There are a couple of principles which you should observe while you continue with whatever argument you've chosen:

The first one is that the Sun determines what the long-term energy consumption on the Earth can be. There is no other number. In the short term, fossil and nuclear fuels allow us to consume more energy than the Sun delivers. When these resources run out, they will be gone, period. The only thing for you to decide is how to use them.

The second principle is that the use of fossil and nuclear fuels both have consequences. This is not a matter of opinion - the degree of effect is the point of contention. For nuclear fuels, the fission product decay daughter isotopes make the disposal of spent nuclear fuel hideously difficult. For fossil fuels, you are blowing about 450 cubic feet of CO2 for every gallon of gasoline you burn.

Have you seen how much gas was burned, just in the USA last year? Now, you're going to say there's no effect?

You don't want to do that. There's a physical law at stake. Every action has an effect. Now, you have to figure out how much - and that's not done by tuning a TV or radio to your favorite broadcast personality.

DO you know how much fuel is consumed? I suggest that you start over with that number, and conduct a real investigation. Hey, our energy use is visible from space - "no effect" is not the answer.

Kristen,

My sister inlaws boyfriend was driving down the road and got pulled over. The cop suspected he had pot on him so he searched the vehicle and lo and behold here was a bag of weed. He took his wallet and looked at the pictures of the kids took all their names down and DHS was called. My sister inlaw, who was not even in the car, was subjected to random visits by a social worker for 6 months. They both had to take pee tests for a while because of a few joints. And yeah people have died for suspicion of drugs. Children have lost their fingers, lives and worst of all their parents. My husband even contacted radly balko when it happened. We sat the boyfriend down and had him watch the "how to deal with police" videos Amy posted on here a while back. Go over to the agitator blog and see the articles for yourself. Ohh and my kids photos, family picture, was in the bfs wallet.. So I, the drug free nobody important to this cop, got a call and threats of a "visit".

The ASPCA thing. What Micheal Vic did was horrible. He was used as an example of why these orgs exist and they use rare cases like his to pass laws for the rest of us. Back when I was a kid if fido got sick or bit someone and needed to be put down you took him out back and shot him. It sounds horrible to some I guess but it was life and ending the animals suffering was the goal. In some states if you do that now they can ruin you. You go to the vet and lay down the cash to end the dogs life or you let them suffer till they die. These are the type of laws they support. And I don't think it's the governments place. They are free to believe what they want but they are becoming a government entity. Or atleast many of their supporters wind up working in the animal control offices.

Josephine,
You must live in a really small town for a cop to do follow up visits. As far as being visited by a social worker, apparently CPS was called which would explain the visits. How much weed was in that bag and why was he pulled over. What reason did the cop have for suspecting it was in the car? Again I ask this because of all of the cops I do know who really don't care about pot let alone pull someone over to check something like that. They need a reason to pull someone over and then reasonable suspicion to search someone or their property. Either you live in a really small two cop kind of town or there's more to that story.

It seems belief in god, and the desire to believe, is some sort of brain adaptation from back in human evolutionary times.

Are we beyond human evolutionary times, here and now?

My S.O. is an active member of the church and he doesn't believe. He's just there to play music.

The Atheists adopted a highway near my school, does that count?

"Are we beyond human evolutionary times, here and now?"

No. I enjoy pointing out to people that they are a transitional species.

In the past, natural selection favored those who bolted at the first sign of trouble. See a "ghost"? Sometimes it was the peyote talking, sometimes it really was a mountain lion. Running away meant you lived. "Ghosts" were real, because when Thag didn't run he disappeared.

Today, social abilities mean that the cancer-prone, the hemophiliac, the cleft palate genes are returned to the population, thus increasing their presence. Allergies, autism are more obvious, sometimes due to improved information systems. It also means that some populations are homogenizing - much to the dismay of people making a living by generating racial discord.

People have friends across realms in World of Warcraft or EVE and do not know their physical neighbors. "Money" doesn't mean a unit of cattle or grain, but an electronic pip.

Kristen I sure do live in a small town. Nothing like NY. My town is notorious for speed traps. Dude got pulled over in school zone an hour before they were letting out. The sole reason for the DHS visits was the pot. It was enough to roll maybe 3 normal sized joints.

And I never actually got a visit. I told the social worker who I was and that I knew who she was and they left me alone.. I am guessing she checked out my foster care record and saw that I was serious.

Amy, any Christian who does good works out of fear of being punished or to seek a reward in the hereafter, is operating at the first-grade level of Sunday School learning about Christianity. That is the level of superstition not religion. Expecting God to reward you for doing something is no different than carrying a rabbit's foot or paying a witch to cast a spell for you. A mature Christian tries to live his life how he thinks God would want him to out of love and gratitude. Here's my best analogy, if you had a good family life growing up, you want to please your parents, not because you are afraid of them, or because they might give you something, but because you love them and want them to be pleased with you. It's the same with God if you believe.

BTW, to return to subject of this thread, living in the Bible Belt, I have known many people I thought went to church for professional reasons—to make contacts and meet clients—the same reason some people join country clubs. However, I can't see into their hearts so I try not to make any negative judgments. Besides, it probably doesn't hurt them being there.

However, I can't see into their hearts so I try not to make any negative judgments.

Are you sure you live in the bible belt? Thats not ususally the attitude bb xtains give off

See a "ghost"? Sometimes it was the peyote talking, sometimes it really was a mountain lion. Running away meant you lived.

I have a nitpick: There's an extensive trail system hereabouts that winds over hill and dale. I'm told that if a mountain lion ever does take an interest in you, it's recommended to stop and wave arms and try to be as menacing as possible because cougars will chase runners or bikers. That's what the one-armed, peg-legged, peyote-eating shaman told me, anyway. :)