I talked to a 15 yo at boarding school, mainland China, once on IRC. I would not trade my sucky high school experience for anything. The psychological pressure on the kid was incredible. One kid per family puts a lot of pressure on that one kid. A. LOT.

There are two valid point to this "Chinese" approach.

First, there is an emphasis on individual achievement. Each individual child is expected to go as far as he or she can. This is what is wrong with programs like No Child Left Behind. Different kids have different abilities. Slow kids will not go as far or as fast as others, and gifted kids should be taken as far and as fast as they can go.

Second, the parents are involved, and expect their children to apply themselves. Contrast this to the stereotypical suburban white community, where teachers are expected to shower kids with good grades regardless of actual achievement, or with the stereotypical inner-city black community where parents couldn't care less what their kids do in school.

I liked the comment of 'expecting frailty' and 'expecting strength'. I think kids do give you what you expect. I thought that summed up my sister's parenting cohort quite well. Everything is about protecting self-esteem, in fact seeing to it that the kids don't experience any negative emotions...never feel left out, never are left wanting the latest cell phone or iPod.

When reading Ms. Chua's article, did anyone else immediately think of Mrs. Kim from "Gilmore Girls"?

The stereotypes about "Western parents" are too ludicrous to even comment upon. I don't know who Ms. Chua associates with, but she certainly has never met any of my friends -- or my (very much Western) parents!

Did anyone else get the sense that the "Chinese" parents also don't enjoy their kids...at least not until the kids are grown, successful and providing for the parents to whom they "owe everything".

No thanks. I had my kids in part to enjoy their childhoods right along with them. That doesn't mean that every minute is enjoyable, because of course my kids have to learn a lot of less than enjoyable things, and I realize that a lot of their best memories are going to come when I'm not around...but gee whiz, not one sleepover? I'm fairly convinced that just like life without chocolate is hardly worth staying healthy for, a childhood without sleepovers is hardly worth being young for.

And, y'know, I'm not into protecting self-esteem at all costs. But I've not yet found a reason to call my kids "garbage" in any language, yet.

Here's another story of a Chinese parent -- and the girl who killed her:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4967340.stm

Esmie had for years been wrestling with her feelings for her parents, Chinese immigrants who, she said, held her to impossibly high standards.

They had threatened to sell her piano if she did not win a state-wide competition, she wrote.

She said they had grounded her for scoring only 96% in an exam.

And, when she disappointed them, she said they had forced her to stand naked in a corner.

Like many teenagers with diaries, she had written of her hatred for them, especially her mother.

"My God," Jacob Horwitz remembers thinking when he read her weblog, "it's a shame that another parent didn't see this yesterday. It's a cry for help."

Our oldest is in the public school's advanced program, and I've seen first hand what these parents do. I wish I didn't have to generalize, but unfortunately, it is primarily the parents who are Asain immigrants who engage in this. Mothers who sit watching their children "study" for 4 hours a day at the dining room table with no breaks. And I'm talking 8 year olds here.
What breaks my heart is that so many of these kids are terrified, timid creatures with zero social skills. They've been bullied and psychologically abused to the point that they literally cower in corners. Oh yes, they get excellent grades, but when asked what is their favorite sport, they can't answer or look you in the eye.
I think the point of having kids is raising a well rounded person. Obviously, we consider academics to be important,or my kid wouldn't be in the advanced program. He also does swimming, soccer, and basketball, and loves to draw.
Having an engineering degree from MIT is great, but if it comes at the expense of never seeing a Van Gogh in person, laughing with your friends at 2 am during a sleepover when you're 12, or burning brownies in the oven when you try to make the for the first time....what the hell kind of life is that?!

what UW said, life has many threads and needs to be enjoyed, as far as i am concerned, many asians raised this way are nothing more than automotrons

I agree with her 100% that the whole "self-esteem" thing has gotten ridiculous...but this is not an inherent attribute of "Western parents." Rather, it is a fad promulgated by academics and amplified by media types and irresponsible educators, and has little to do with the way America and other Western societies have traditionally operated.

Much is lost when a kid's life is entirely programmed by parents; for one thing, the kid may be directed into a profession that doesn't make good use of his abilities and interests. Several years ago, I read a story about a California girl, a National Merit Scholar, with a GPA of 3.8 and a combined SAT of 1450. She was also a talented artist. So how did her parents react to her accomplishments? They wanted her to go to Harvard, Stanford, or Berkeley. When she spoke to them about becoming an artist, they **threw her portfolio into the street, then made her wait half an hour while cars ran over an entire year's work.**

Another girl asked for a sewing machine--her parents ridiculed her, saying they hadn't "sacrificed" so she could become a "seamstress."

For me, there is a sadness in that for every case we hear of a success story, we see a dozen excuses, such as claims that the high achiever "didn't have a childhood" or some such thing.

Maybe it's me, but I detest the implication that whatever a child decides is the best thing possible. Families are a team effort. When they are not, disinterested strangers from the government step in - how's that turn out?

If you want to raise a loser, nobody's twisting your arm to get them out of the trailer park.

Make the contrast. Le Huan makes her kid play piano 3 hours a day. Lee Roy beats his kid with a bottle of Jack every night.

Take your pick. There are a million ways to fail, somebody is going to, and you haven't tried them all yet.

>>For me, there is a sadness in that for every case we hear of a success story, we see a dozen excuses, such as claims that the high achiever "didn't have a childhood" or some such thing...

Radwaste, I agree with you.

I do, however, understand the impulse to be defensive & to manufacture silly theories. (Pushy Chinese parents don't "enjoy" their kids (!) - and the like.)

Anyway, pushy Chinese parents cling to harsh stereotypes about lazy, indulgent western parents failing their kids too!

I wonder if Vera Wang's parents felt that way!

My neighbor two doors down is raising her children in the ways above mentioned- the children are virtual prisoners in their house. No outdoor play in the winter. One half hour riding their bikes in front of their house in the good weather. The boy is already at 7 in therapy for anti-social anger issues at school.

I went to public school with the same group of kids from kindergarten to high school graduation. There were a couple of Chinese-American families who demanded excellence from their kids, but not at the expense of sleepovers or playdates or whatever. The children were all pretty popular -- not in a "Heathers" way, but because they were nice and well-balanced (and the girls were gorgeous).

All of them went on to adult success. Are they happy as adults? No idea. But they're not crazy anti-social zombie burnouts.

(The one exception was "Teri," who was from a family of six kids; she was the only one at our public school, and the rest were homeschooled or church-schooled or something. Her father was of some Asian descent (not Chinese) and her mother was Mormon. Teri got straight As but was socially retarded in the extreme, as well as very jumpy and shaky in general; she wore Little House on the Prairie dresses to school when the other girls were wearing bellbottoms. Of course, at the first parent-teacher thing, both my parents sized up the father and declared "He's messing with those kids," but this was at a time where you Didn't Get Involved in such things.)

I have to ask: Do such kids really FEEL loved? It's puzzling, because I remember seeing, years ago, at least one NY Times article about how the "four-two-one" syndrome in China - that is, four grandparents and two parents all doting on one child with no siblings or cousins, who becomes a spoiled brat.

And, regarding Western parents, some years ago, I saw a letter to Time Magazine (from a teacher?) saying that the mistake so many parents make is saying to their kids "I just want you to be happy" when what they should be saying is "life is going to throw you curveballs, and it's important that I help you to be prepared for that." (Which sounds like a decent middle ground between East and West, to me.)

Finally, from Dr. John Rosemond (I'm not fond of his religious tendencies, but otherwise, he makes plenty of sense):

Some well-meaning folks suggest that there are two types of high self-esteem: a "false" self-esteem that is a function of people patting you on the back and telling you how wonderful you are, and a "genuine" self-esteem that is the result of significant accomplishment. In the words of a colleague and good friend, "Genuine self-esteem comes from achievement, such as studying hard and making good grades, or practicing hard and excelling in a sport."

So where, I ask, does that leave the child who studies hard and still makes no better than C's? Or the child who is a klutz? Or the disabled child who has neither the mental nor physical ability to succeed at doing much more than everyday self-help tasks? No, accomplishment-based self-esteem is no better than affirmation-based self-esteem. The former is highly prejudicial, the latter is sinful-a form of self-idolatry. And make no mistake about, if you have high regard for yourself because of your accomplishments, then you are likely to have less than high regard for those who's accomplishments are not as "worthy" as your own. In which case we are again talking about self-idolatry......

......"So, John," the impatient reader asks. "Answer the question: (If 'self esteem' is bad) What's good?"

What's good is self-respect. Because it is not a function of significant accomplishment, anyone can acquire self-respect, even the C-student, the klutz, and the disabled child. Self-respect, furthermore, is not idolatrous. It is acquired not because parents praise you (although they should-conservatively), but because they love you unconditionally (as does the Lord), hold you completely responsible for your behavior (but forgive you your sinfulness), and insist that you obey (respect their authority) and mind your manners at all times (show respect for others). It is, in fact, axiomatic that self-respect cannot exist without respect for others......

........Are self-confidence and self-respect interchangeable terms? Again, no. Self-confidence is specific to certain situations. For example, I feel very confident speaking to large groups of people, but I feel a distinct loss of confidence when I'm in deep water with sharks (I know, because I've been there, done that!). In fact, having confidence in a situation where you should not, where you should be on guard and charged with adrenaline, is foolhardy. But where self-confidence has, and should have, its ups and downs, self-respect is a constant.

The self-respecting person, rather than being "high" on him/herself, is modest, humble, even self-effacing at times-to again cite the apostle, a person of "sober judgment."

(end)

And, from another thread:

Sometimes I think that even decades ago, parents expected their kids to understand more than they ever could. When I was barely ten, my (Western) mother practically yelled at me for not understanding that James Thurber's reference to Missionary Ridge in "The Dog That Bit People" was a reference to the Civil War. (Mind you, I was reading the story for fun, not for school!)We were NEVER taught about the Civil War in that much detail in fourth grade - if at all. Besides, how was I supposed to know that Thurber was born in the 19th century - or that Missionary Ridge wasn't a mission building, which was what I thought at the time?

I know a kid being raised like this just not as extreme. He's a 15 year old really great kid who gets straight A's and is involved in good activities. His parents ride him so hard and actually punished him for getting a 97 on a trig test. He's a pleasure to be around but I wonder what happens when he gets out in the real world and everything around him isn't so tightly controlled. He makes fun of his parents behind their back which is typical teen behavior but I always wonder how much he really hates them.

He makes fun of his parents behind their back which is typical teen behavior but I always wonder how much he really hates them.

Posted by: Kristen

Alot, I'd bet everything I own he has considered killing them, maybe not to the point of a definite plan - but I'd be willing to bet he's thought about it

"What's good is ..."
~lenona

Lenona, I agree with all the items on your list except "respect authority." I think that too often it gets dumbed-down to "defer to authority." I was raised to question authority respectfully, which was particularly helpful when I encountered adults who attempted to abuse their authority. My parents also repeatedly made it clear that where the adult was behaving badly or in a way that posed a danger to me, my first obligation was to do whatever I needed to do to come home safe, manners be damned. Come home safe; everything else can be worked out later.

I presume the dynamic of "respect authority" was key in the success of Catholic priests molesting boys.

Respect, yes. "Respect authority," no. Treat all people with courtesy unless they demonstrate that it is unwise to do so. Consider the consequences of your actions and in-action. Know what you value, and choose accordingly.

"What's good is ..."
~lenona

Lenona, I agree with all the items on your list
_____________________________

Um, that was Dr. Rosemond's list.

I admit, though, that he NEVER talks about how kids can politely stand up to adults who are bullies even if the adults don't do anything illegal. I'd guess Rosemond thinks that 90% of American kids already know how to do that too well - or not politely at all. (No idea whether he's right or not.)

There are FOUR types of respect, which overlap much of the time, but they don't have to. Namely, in order, grudging acceptance of others' right to exist (such as when a bully stops bullying), common courtesy, deference (as to a superior) and admiration.

So, one might say: "Courtesy is your right; admiration is what you earn."

However, "common courtesy towards adults," when you're a child, clearly mandates deference (usually), though not admiration. Let's face it: too often, kids just don't understand the adult point of view and won't until they're adults. Which is why when a child demands to know why a REASONABLE rule has to be obeyed, it's OK for a parent to say "because I said so."

"...kids just don't understand the adult point of view and won't until they're adults."

Understood/ agreed.

"Which is why when a child demands to know why a REASONABLE rule has to be obeyed, it's OK for a parent to say "because I said so."

I don't have kids. I can see that kids can try one's patience, and that "because I said so" is effectively the bottom line. I think it's also code for, "you're on my last nerve, and you push this issue at your peril."

That occurs for me more as a statement of fact (and an implicit prompt to a kid to weigh his or her options) than as an admonition to respect authority. I think most small kids learn to pick up on that "last nerve" tone of voice - unless there are siblings involved - maybe that's when things go directly from suspiciously quite to "don't make me stop this car."

I remember the refrain, "if you live in my house, you live by my rules." That prompted me to weigh my options. When I fell in line, it was not due to new found sense of respect, but after determining that sucking it up and falling in line was in my best interests.

Lenona said: "I admit, though, that he NEVER talks about how kids can politely stand up to adults who are bullies even if the adults don't do anything illegal."

Actually, there was a column sometime this past year in which a parent wrote in and said "all adults must be respected" and I was shocked when Rosemond wrote back "No, respect should be earned." I wish I could find it, but Rosemond is pay-for-play on his site and doesn't archive.

I was shocked because I expected him to say that kids should always respect an adult no matter what. It seemed like his character. Instead, he said more along the lines that a child should treat an adult as an authority, but that doesn't require them to agree with everything they say, always follow their rules, or blindly accept everything as fact.

If I have time this weekend, I'll try and repost it. I like Rosemond a lot, because his parenting advice is very old school, and I think that works better than what I'm seeing in kids and parents today.

Ummm...being a good mathemagican requires quite a bit more skill and art than rote memorization and drills provide.

"Instead, he said more along the lines that a child should treat an adult as an authority, but that doesn't require them to agree with everything they say, always follow their rules, or blindly accept everything as fact."
~CornerDemon

I prefer that approach, especially given the adage, "power corrupts; absolute power corrupts absolutely."

Hmmm. Clearly that "Chinese mother" did not have her spawn playing in any youth travel leagues, where American parents would likely beat her and her kid to death for their physical weakness. Those people are *serious* about achievement, and your little violin is not going to save you from mortal justice if your kid does not stop that power play scoring assault.

Snark aside, there is a difference between effective parenting and demanding that your children do what you want for far too many years.

Once a kid hits a certain age, they start to take the reins and structure their own lives; parents are there to assist to a reasonable degree, but that is all. And that age of rein-taking cannot be 5 (too young) or 18 (too old).

Wow, bordering on child abuse. I'm an engineer, one of the most important lessons you learn with experience is that sometimes close enough is good enough - perfectionists don't ship or deliver projects. At school I pursued the minimum effort for maximum reward model and did just fine. Who is going to give a fuck about a B on a high school math test in twenty years? Is it really worth hours of study to push your marks up by a couple of percent? This woman needs to give her kid a break and let her have a life. Not let her become a dropout, just lighten up a bit for goodness sake.

"Hacking somebody to death with a butcher knife is about as serious as it gets. Even though everybody agrees she had been cruelly treated by her mother, it does not remotely excuse the level of violence."

Yeah, well. They wanted her to excel . . .

(her kids wouldn't dare) "not be the No. 1 student in every subject except gym and drama"

Why is she dissing drama? In real-life business and other organizations, people who make it in a big way are usually good communicators: they can speak to large audiences, and interact well with individuals and small groups.

Someone with good programming skills but no communication skills may do an OK job as a programmer, but the one who gets chosen as CIO is likely to have good communications skills. Ditto for the financial analyst and the CFO.

This expands on a thought I had last night. A young lady I went to HS with who was dong great has ended up as a waitress at an all diner w/ 2 kids - never married. I was think last night (after talking with her on FB) that she was driven by her parents to excel and once she was in college she no longer had that drive... Note that she is white.

Now thinking about this, I see that of the Asians I group up with, almost all of them were parented like this just not quite as harshly (one played the cello). Of the ones I know of now, none went onto jobs were this helped. One decided to become a stay at home mom after graduating law school but never signing up for the bar, another works in remote villages to better things (e.g. She has a photo posted of her digging a ditch in Africa).

I used to work with a lot of Indians who were extremely good at math, but couldn't solve problems at all. You couldn't tell them to do something, you had to give them ever step and what to do if something went wrong.

I almost don't know how to respond to this article; I simply can't relate to it. If this is an example of what it means to be a good parent, then I'm the most piss-poor bad parent in the world, because I'm practically the opposite of this woman on every point she makes. I would be delighted if one of my kids was in a school play (why is that so bad but learning piano is good?) I also encourage them to spend 90% of their free time playing with friends and just having fun, including the occasional sleepover (the other 10% of their free time is for TV and video games). I am perfectly happy with an A- or even a B. I'm far more concerned that my kids grow up to be good people - not that they will be "happy" because I think happiness will follow from being a good person. Ms. Chua seems to believe that happiness comes from academic and professional acheivement.

This article really gets to me because I’ve seen what Mrs. Chua’s style of parenting can do to a kid. I spend a lot of time with a youth traditional Chinese orchestra, and while the kids are extraordinarily sweet, they’re also neurotic as anything. Sure, they do well at school and earn honors at a state and national level, but I’ve tried to comfort a few too many sobbing teenagers to think that the amount of pressure placed on them is healthy (and, compared to Mrs. Chua, their parents are moderate—they allow their children to go to parties and get 97’s on tests).

"I'm far more concerned that my kids grow up to be good people - not that they will be "happy" because I think happiness will follow from being a good person."

And there's an example I was waiting for. KarenW, your kids must eventually gain a marketable skill. While no one should expect them to have one by the tenth grade, say, all of the principles should already be old hat.

There is a nearly invisible problem with Americans who consider "feeling good" to be enough in school: Being satisfied with low technical or professional achievement means you will not understand any of the issues of government, and you will be manipulated by those who do.

Random thoughts (as usual):
1. When these kids are brought up in Western society, how well do they function?
2. It sounds like she's raising really good employees. Good programmers, good engineers, but not on a supervisor or upper management level, because they never devloped any social skills and lack the power to make decisions on their own. I don't know one single person raised by one of Chua's type of "chinese mothers" who is any type of upper-level manager/CEO/company president.
3. My parents are working class. Once, I got an 85 as a mid-term grade in high school. (I don't remember the subject.) Dad asked me what constituted a failing grade. Answer: Under 70%. His reply: "Then you're halfway to failing." Not all western parents have a hard-on for self-esteem.
4. My kid's only one... the first activity that I actually plan on paying for (besides the "mothers day out" program at the neighborhood church) is toddler tumbling (which starts at 18 months at the gymnastics studio in my neighborhood). We'll dabble in other things- kindermusik and gymboree art or something similiar- but I'd rather have a kid who's socially competent and well-rounded than an akward little "prodigy."
4. The valedictorian of my highschool class is a middle school teacher. All that studying, all that pressure, to do something that oftentimes is just a time-filler until you can marry someone who makes "real" money. (That's not meant to disparage teachers, but if I were the best of the best academically, I wouldn't go into a field that tops out at 50k. I make that as a secretary.)
5. Academic success does not guarantee leadership ability.
6. Husband got kicked out of high school (in the late 80's) for discipline problems. He also flunked out of UT. He has his own company and his own staff now. I did pretty well in school... and as mentioned in #4, I'm just a secretary.

I've supervised maybe a couple of hundred entry-level people in film/TV over the years. Quite a few have been Asian, and most of those female. Almost without exception, they were diligent, hard-working, willing, bright and enthusiastic. They were not inventive, creative or skilled at improvisation, or any type of problem solving that required any sort of "off the cuff" thinking. Great at charts, spreadsheets and recording data. Hopeless at dreaming up something new. Anecdotes aren't data. The big exception was a Korean girl who could talk her way in and out of any situation--and she claimed to be half Irish!

One quick observation right now: the operative word in the article is definitely "stereotypical" - as in the first lines "stereotypically successful."

Chinese kids, just like any others, are not all successful, do not even all become hard-working (certainly after school) - what a surprise.

And Amy Chua seems to have a further trick up her sleeve. Just as Tim Ferriss defines work exactly the way he wants to, so does Mrs. Chua define "Chinese mothers" just as she pleases. Your kids are successful because of your pushing, you are a "Chinese mother;" they are not, you are not...

basically, the perfect is the enemy of the good -- or the done.

Leave it to you Amy to put it better than I could! I've had a few of these kids put in my hands for on the job training. The problem is that when they're at school/university it is rational for them to try to push their marks up to get an edge in selection, job interviews, whatever. It makes sense to make the effort when entry is competitive.

But too many parents see academic achievement as an end in itself rather than a means to an end. Then I have to retrain them into "Look, we make a call now and we might be wrong. But it will cost less to fix it down the track than to delay. And not every decision will be wrong. Do the best you can and I'll cop the flak if it's wrong. If 70% of our decisions work out we'll be doing well. And something we never thought of will come up anyway".

Whatever system those chinese may have, I certainly disliked the too many abusive individuals chinese that I came across. It would be good if they can improve their chinese behaviour or their image, regardless whether they are successful or not.

Ltw:

Who is going to give a fuck about a B on a high school math test in twenty years? Is it really worth hours of study to push your marks up by a couple of percent?

Yet this is a career-breaker in China.

We forget the culture that spawned this parenting style (and no, I'm not defending it):

The Chinese invented civil service exams centuries ago, after they successfully centralized power over an enormous region -

- and a ginormous population, which means nobody is indispensable and competition for advancement has been fierce for... a long time.

A history of subsistence-level poverty more most, Confucian notions of reverence for parents, and now small-family policy combine to put a LOT of economic and other burdens on the parent-child relationship

... Westerners' ability to ignore aging parents, confident they will be cared for - is VERY recent and unique. Social security was promoted primarily as a way to avoid crushing poverty among the elderly... my father sent part of his paycheck back to his parents in Brooklyn during the 50s, and there's a reason why this family dynamic has parallels in Jewish and other immigrant groups, to this day.

The reason that Chinese kids aren't allowed to sleep over and socialize isn't because their parents are keeping them sequestered to improve their academics, it's because Chinese are insanely racist. I'm surprised that Amy Chua didn't make any mention of this, because it's what motivates a lot of how they raise their children w/ regards to how they're socialized.

It's ironic that these parents are so out of touch about what constitutes success and how to achieve it. You can be valedictorian and have perfect SAT scores and play an instrument and do a million extracurriculars and STILL not get into an Ivy League school. That happened to me but I didn't beat myself up over it because I don't base my life and self-worth around these things. (I also had plenty of sleepovers, playdates, and computer games along the way, as well as parties, boyfriends, and cutting class as I got older, and it didn't hurt me at all). Or you can get into an Ivy League school and kill yourself to get a 4.0 in chemical engineering and still end up with no job offers, while the guy with a 3.5 in marketing but a normal social life is making $80,000 a year out of school through connections in his fraternity. Or maybe you get the job and end up earning a solid living with your nose to the grind but you'll never make millions like the aggressive alpha-male bonds traders and investment bankers. Amy Chua and her ilk just don't get how the world works.

And what's up with the dictum that school plays = bad, violin and piano = good? I'm pretty sure that most colleges weight drama and orchestra about equally and couldn't give a rat's ass whether you played piano versus tuba. It just goes to show how pointless and arbitrary these rules are.

Also, the over-the-top parenting styles can backfire: I had a friend whose strict Vietnamese parents gave her little freedom and insisted that she pick a pre-med major even though she had little interest and aptitude for the sciences. Well she got to college, had her first taste of freedom, and proceeded to go absolutely crazy: partying 4-5 nights a week, skipping class, blowing off assignments. That combined with her choice of a difficult major that she wasn't interested in or good at resulted in her failing out of college. The story has a happy ending because she ended up working and going to community college for a year, got her shit together, and was admitted to the marketing program in another school--a career that she's actually well-suited for and will have a chance at being successful in. But she could have gotten to that point much quicker and easier if her parents had been less rigid initially.

Lenona said: "I admit, though, that he NEVER talks about how kids can politely stand up to adults who are bullies even if the adults don't do anything illegal."

Actually, there was a column sometime this past year in which a parent wrote in and said "all adults must be respected" and I was shocked when Rosemond wrote back "No, respect should be earned." I wish I could find it, but Rosemond is pay-for-play on his site and doesn't archive.

I was shocked because I expected him to say that kids should always respect an adult no matter what. It seemed like his character. Instead, he said more along the lines that a child should treat an adult as an authority, but that doesn't require them to agree with everything they say, always follow their rules, or blindly accept everything as fact.

Posted by: cornerdemon at January 8, 2011 12:04 PM
_______________________

I saw that column when it came out. It didn't surprise me at all, because, as I mentioned above, there are FOUR different types of respect, and Rosemond was clearly referring to children's right not to ADMIRE or AGREE with any particular adult who outranks them - NOT children's right to disobey authority figures on any occasion. Nor did he mention adults who abuse their power. As I was saying.....

But don't take my word for it; here's part of the column:

"........The fact that a person occupies a position of authority does not mean he or she exercises authority in a manner that deserves esteem. For example, the fact that the law requires me to submit to certain designated authorities does not mean I am obligated to give them my respect. Note that obedience and respect are not synonymous. I obey because I believe in rule of law, however imperfect. I also obey because in the final analysis, I'm a lot more content than if I disobey. (Disobedient people, regardless of age, are never content.)

"I am not obliged, however, to respect the individuals who make the law. They earn my respect by acting responsibly, ethically and selflessly.

"Likewise, I think it is in the overall best interest of children that they obey adults who occupy positions of legitimate authority: parents and teachers, especially. Children who disobey are not happy campers. But even a child can understand, intuitively, that an adult in a position of leadership is not behaving in a fashion that deserves respect. An adult earns the respect of children by discharging the responsibilities of his or her 'office' in a fashion that causes children to want to obey. In other words, obedience is a natural response to effective leadership, and this is true regardless of whether the people being led are adults or children.......

"........Parenting and teaching are both leadership activities. Unfortunately, today's parents and teachers are all too likely to be operating as if their primary goal is to establish wonderful relationships with their children and students. Leaders, however, must guard against letting the desire for relationship undermine leadership. The attempt on the part of a person in a leadership position to establish wonderful relationships reflects insecurity, which opens the door to disrespect. Besides, by putting leadership first, good relationship follows - naturally......."

You can read the rest at:

http://lacrossetribune.com/lifestyles/article_9b1164da-b078-11df-a576-001cc4c002e0.html

BTW, here's an example of when kids need to stand up to, say, teachers. (I don't have the 1990s article in front of me, unfortunately.)

A teacher calls on a black girl by another black girl's name. The two girls look very different, but when the first girl politely corrects the teacher, the teacher claims that the two look the same. A white girl speaks up and says: "They do not look alike; you just said that because they're both black."

A few more things:

Courtesy is your right. Respect is a privilege - such as being paid for your skills because they're GOOD enough to be paid for.

And, from the above, one can infer that you don't have to earn common courtesy.

From Miss Manners:

"(Miss Manners) admits that the term 'respect' is rather loosely used in the manners business. This leads to the sort of argument in which a parent says, 'You have to show more respect for Granny,' and the child replies, 'Why, since she just got out of jail for petty larceny?'

"The sort of respect to which the parent is referring is a part of good manners. It means exhibiting consideration toward everyone and showing special deference to those who are older or in a position of authority.

"But the child hears the word to mean the genuine admiration felt for someone who has proved himself to be worthy of it. That sort of respect is, indeed, a thing apart, which etiquette cannot mandate.

"Manners require only that people show respect, although with the secret hope that the outward form will become internalized. What people feel as they size up individuals is up to them."

Yet another bit:

From MAD Magazine's "Parental Hang-Ups" (1980s?):

"Parents have a hang-up about.....self-assertion. They think you should stand right up in class and tell your teacher to stop picking on you. 'But for goodness' sake, don't ever tell her who told you to do that!' "

We forget the culture that spawned this parenting style (and no, I'm not defending it):

I don't forget it Ben David. I know quite a few expat Chinese here in Australia, and I'm very familiar with the cultural differences. Bit of an aside as an example, they're generally very comfortable with authoritarian government - a legacy of decades of civil war. They tend to value stability over freedom more than we would. And unless you know someone *very* well, don't bring up Tibet!

Yet this is a career-breaker in China.

True. But it's stupid to transplant those values into another society. My message for Amy Chua would be that she needs to look around at what is valued in the place she has chosen to raise her children. Academic achievement is good, but it's just not that necessary in Western societies. You can have a perfectly good career without straight A's. And participating in school plays just might be one of those things that develops the social skills needed to help that.

True. But it's stupid to transplant those values into another society.
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Also true - but difficult.

We had a whole set of family stories about the "greenhorns" who left Eastern Europe for America.

Told by their children, who bore the full brunt of shame for their parents' otherness.

Now that I (a much more broadly educated person than my great-grandparents) have moved to Israel (not exactly a cultural leap for a religious Jew) - I see first hand how tough it is. And I read those stories differently.

While Chinese students tend to excel at Math Olympiads, where quick computation is necessary, they are not as highly represented in the field of mathematics. Terry Tao is a notable mathematician, of course, but for the most part Chinese students lack the creativity needed for a career in the field.

The best mathematicians are from Europe and the United States.

... that reminds me of when I was in High School and a kid shot himself over Thanksgiving. It was a Chinese-American kid whose parents put a lot of pressure on him. I'd been in the math challenge program with him. Of course in the western suburbs of Boston many kids try to off themselves, but he was the only one of my peers who succeeded...

... what's wrong with school plays, though, isn't that all about culture?

Nor did he mention adults who abuse their power.
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Slight correction: I should have said "nor did he mention adults who abuse their power over children."

Lenona, I read an interesting article that discussed how people recognize each other. Due to the variation of hair and eye color amongst caucasian populations, white people tend to recognize each other by coloring.

Black people on the other hand tend to notice facial structure more.

It isn't racism to confuse people who have similar coloring any more than it was anti-brown-hairism when teachers were always confusing me and whatever other girl with brown eyes and long, straight brown hair was in the classroom.

Call me an "evil Westerner" all you want, but there is nothing wrong with a child being in a school play or a sports team, visiting a friend's house, play the trumpet, or playing Civilization. A child is allowed to have fun, just playing. Of course academics is important. Parents should be involved with their children's education, but let a kid be a kid.

Lenona, I read an interesting article that discussed how people recognize each other. Due to the variation of hair and eye color amongst caucasian populations, white people tend to recognize each other by coloring.

Black people on the other hand tend to notice facial structure more.

It isn't racism to confuse people who have similar coloring any more than it was anti-brown-hairism when teachers were always confusing me and whatever other girl with brown eyes and long, straight brown hair was in the classroom.

Posted by: NicoleK at January 10, 2011 12:12 PM
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The article I quoted from was by Brooklyn writer Retha Powers, from Glamour, Oct. 1994.

For the record, when I looked at it again yesterday, it said that the teacher had REPEATEDLY confused the two girls in the past - and been corrected multiple times - despite the other girl's being six inches shorter(!) and yes, having much thinner features.

The point is that if even a white child is capable of noticing that it's worse than absurd to confuse the two girls in question, what excuse does an white adult have?

Enjoyed anything about zombies or parks. Can't wait to see more.