From the same source, Sheeeeriff Doooopnik is Nifong'ing Rush Limbaugh, now http://tinyurl.com/4qyxkxd
Definition of Nifong'ing - To make baseless accussations in the press, repeatedly, getting wilder and more vile each time, in order to try and deflect attention from one's own heinously fucked up job performance.

Don't most states provide security for state reps, as well? So, it appears, he is trying to constantly deflect the focus from his and his staff's dropping the ball here.

I hope the people of Arizona are paying attention.

I think the point of this was that she would give direct representation to her constituents -- let them be directly heard. Sad that this will now be seemed too dangerous. And as for metal detectors and searches, that costs money. This lady just set up outside a grocery store to give regular people a direct voice. I would be very tempted to vote for a candidate like that, even if I weren't totally in keeping with her politics. (I'm totally in keeping with no candidate's politics.)

So wait. They didn't press charges to spare his family member from the hassle?
Well I guess it's all fine and dandy then. Nevermind the families of the people he killed. I am sure they understand.

Like Sabrina said, being connected to the political class allows you to roam the streets until you really mess someone up. Rent seeking down to the individual level.

I have to say, as a person with a family member who has serious mental problems, it is really, really tough to do anything about them until it's too late. Even someone who has acted violently and attacked other people can't just be kept in jail "just in case." The police have trouble with these individuals because they get called on (or by!) these people all the time, but they can't just arrest someone for "extremely odd" behavior. They can't do anything except keep an eye on the person and hope for the best.

These people exist in a kind of weird legal twilight. They are mostly-functional adults, so they can't be restrained, or constantly monitored, or many times even committed (until they're really, really bad; and even then, they can't stay there forever so they get released again). The families have to struggle to keep track of the people and deal with their oddness which, even on their best days, can be extremely odd and unpleasant and threatening and disruptive. Family members who have small children have it the worst, because who wants to expose their kids to crazy and possibly endanger them?

My heart goes out to Loughner's family because it's my family's nightmare, too, that someday our crazy relative is going to do something extreme. If that day ever comes, you can bet that we'll all be blaming ourselves, even if we know that we've done everything we could possibly do. Mental illness is a serious, serious problem in our society but it only ever gets attention in the aftermath of an horrific event like the one in Arizona, and then people lose interest again.

it is really, really tough to do anything about them until it's too late.

That's true. Someone dropped the ball though by allowing him to have a firearm.

Before the de-institutionalization craze took over, it was much easier to get people like Loughner the care they needed. He'd probably be in a state hospital right now.

To elaborate on Jennifer's comment, even when you do manage to get something done, the state has its own budget pressures. People who shouldn't be released, are.

Sometimes, with tragic results for the families involved. You will find the state is blameless.

Here's just what I'm talking about, from a professional: Dr. Helen.

http://drhelen.blogspot.com/2011/01/if-you-see-it-on-news-one-night-know.html

It's sad but we just haven't found a way to deal with these people that is acceptable to our society's notions re: adults & freedom.

I don't have the answer, either.

Someone dropped the ball though by allowing him to have a firearm.

How? sadly, his murderous rampage was his first offense so he was able to pass his NICS check and legally purchase a firearm.

Had PCSO taken the threats seriously and arrested him on a felony charge for them, he would have been required to turn over any firearms in his posession, and would have been placed on the NICS blacklist so that he would be unable to legally purchase a firearm.

My friend's sister is schizophrenic, and it's a nightmare for her family. She spends all her money on cigarettes and junk food, disappears for long periods at a time and has all the behavior you'd expect from someone with schizophrenia, but she is deemed a functional adult by the state, so her family has no ability to even get medical information about her, find out what meds she's supposed to be on, etc. All they can do is take care of her kids when she has episodes and try to make sure her fridge is full of real food.

Doctors can be really awful with this stuff. One of them was ready to deem my father, who has moderate-advanced dementia, able to make his own decisions based on the fact that he knows his birthdate and who I am. The doctor didn't see the obvious until I asked a few more questions and dad insisted it was 1942 and Truman was president.

And speaking of people with serious mental problems, how sick is THIS:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/01/09/westboro-baptist-church-arizona_n_806319.html

These people need to find something better to do with their lives.

And speaking of people with serious mental problems, how sick is THIS

This is pretty bloodthirsty, but I keep hoping a grieving mourner will take a few of these people out. Natural consequences.

I wonder if Phelps and his cult ever grasp the irony in what they are doing with all the hate speech and passing judgement (basically committing sins) against others they deem as sinners. I also wonder if they ever consider the irony of their "dead soldier" rants. Who do they think died so they could have the right to be publicly ignorant and hateful? The pope?

I know it's very unChristian but part of me hopes that those lax gun laws and the incompatent sherrif's dept in Tucson make headlines again that day.

And speaking of people with serious mental problems, how sick is THIS

This is pretty bloodthirsty, but I keep hoping a grieving mourner will take a few of these people out. Natural consequences.

How soon they forget. This is AZ. Sunny, southwest, perfect motorcycle climate, just like Nevada. Fred's fucktards got a warm welcome from some bikers in NV, I'm certain they will get the same from some of our guys here. Notice that the bikers didn't really *do* anything, just decided that they wanted the piece of ground the fuckwit was standing on... gotta love it.

http://tinyurl.com/pp4hjm

How? sadly, his murderous rampage was his first offense

He apparently has prior charges that were reduced, though I don't know if there were Federal charges involved.

I don't know Arizona law, but in most states, the determination of mental health authorities, or police, pursuant to a mental health evaluation, can justify the confiscation of firearms, at least temporarily.

But beyond the question of how he got past NICS, which isn't hard seeing that you're self reporting on the mental health question, there's the fact that IF anyone knew he was crazy and threatening, and knew he had a firearm, they did nothing about it. Even without an explicit legal justification, there are ways to get a firearm away from someone who is crazy.

Under Arizona law, prohibited possessor are defined in ARS 13-3101 which states:

7. “Prohibited possessor” means any person:

(a) Who has been found to constitute a danger to himself or to others or to be persistently or acutely disabled or gravely disabled pursuant to court order under section 36-540, and whose right to possess a firearm has not been restored pursuant to section 13-925.

More here:
http://tinyurl.com/4gtr2jv

Flynn and others,

WBC makes their living by doing their annoying crap. They sue communities for not giving them a demonstration license quickly enough, or denying one, and all sorts of other stuff. No doubt they get plenty of donations from people as sick as them.

"The doctor didn't see the obvious until I asked a few more questions and dad insisted it was 1942 and Truman was president."

So which part was it that finally got his attention, the fact that it is not 1942 or the fact that Roosevelt was president in 42?

I heard they are estimating his legal defense costs to top $5 million...

Oh! We have gone from being libertarians to wanting the state to take away firearms from all people determined (how?) to be mentally unfit.

Now, do we have to go to monthly mental health reviews to keep our 33-shot pistols?

Yeah, let's blame the state for not being intrusive enough to know that a citizen was both fabulously armed and mentally unfit.

This calls for a state to be all-seeing and knowing, and powerful. So we can have repeating weaponery.

This is pathetic.

BOTU, STFU. Please.

Sabrina:

I wonder if Phelps and his cult ever grasp the irony in what they are doing with all the hate speech and passing judgement (basically committing sins) against others they deem as sinners.

Phelps has addressed that on his FAQ. He believes that the admonition not to judge means to not judge using your human judgment. And he advises those who still think it means not to judge under any circumstances to stop telling him not to judge, otherwise they're guilty of judging him.

Sabrina:

I also wonder if they ever consider the irony of their "dead soldier" rants. Who do they think died so they could have the right to be publicly ignorant and hateful? The pope?

Unlike the rest of the world, the gay community has had over a decade of experience with Phelps. He was picketing the funerals of gays and gay events for many years...then apparently realizing he wasn't getting the publicity he wanted, he started going after the dead veterans.

Also unlike the rest of the "free" world, the gay community never imagined that their remedy lied in the unconstitutional curtailment of free speech. Instead, gays devised creative ways of dealing with Phelps. At the funeral of Matthew Shepard, a local church's choir dressed as angels with gigantic wings and surrounded Phelps and clan, blocking them from view.

When Phelps showed up at a gay pride parade, counter protesters showed up with signs done in the style of Phelps' own, with captions like "New in town, sailor?" and "WE'RE CLOSETED!"

One clever innovation that has bitterly stuck in Phelps' craw was to create a fundraiser for his events (detailed on Phelps' site, in the section, "How Fags Can Make Money"). Local businesses would pledge a certain amount for every minute of Phelps' pickets. The money raised was then donated to causes that Phelps opposes, such as AIDS research.

I find it contemptible that the gay community has dealt with Phelps' offensive antics with courage and creativity, but when he goes after more mainstream targets, then we have to have special laws enacted, unconstitutional measures, such as protesters prohibited within a certain radius of funerals. How nice. I can assure that Matthew Shepard didn't have that protection.

So which part was it that finally got his attention, the fact that it is not 1942 or the fact that Roosevelt was president in 42?

I'm just glad Dad got both wrong; otherwise, the doc might have thought he was a time traveler.

At the funeral of Matthew Shepard, a local church's choir dressed as angels with gigantic wings and surrounded Phelps and clan, blocking them from view.

I heard that some people in AZ are planning to do this as well for the funerals there.

You know blacks in the American South finally got treated equally?

Repeating firarms baby. When they started to brandish the AK-47s, they suddenly were let into schools, restaurants, and got the vote.

My brother Rufus even got hired by the Atlanta PD, after he went down there wih an M-16.

Patrick:
I agree with you 100%.

I was just pointing out the irony in his protesting the people who fight for his right to protest.

What's the website to help fags make money??? I am all in! That's awesome!

"Yeah, let's blame the state for not being intrusive enough to know that a citizen was both fabulously armed and mentally unfit." ~BOTU

It would be impractical, if not impossible, to determine on a large scale whether each person is "fabulously armed." Most of the time that knowledge helps me sleep better at night.

I think our best defense is vigilance. I wish we could do more, legally, at the individual level to raise the red flag and get assistance when those closest to us give us rational cause for alarm:

"[...] Poplawski was known to police, and officers had been called to the home two or three times previously."

http://www.wtae.com/news/19094064/detail.html

Possession does not require ownership and its attendant paper trail, but I believe that in this case the guy's mother, who made the call, told the 911 worker that her son was armed. As I recall, the 911 worker did not pass that information along to police. I wonder if the mother had mentioned firearms during any of the prior visits/ incidents, and if so, if the police were empowered to do anything in response (at least after the second or third call, if not the first) and regardless of whether she chose to file charges.

So, BOTU, are you afraid to make a stand and tell us what you actually think? Not in the negation of different other people's ideas, but to actually say "I think this... I believe that..."

Do you think people should be able to own guns, or don't you? and WHY.

"Before the de-institutionalization craze took over, it was much easier to get people like Loughner the care they need"

WRONG! Mass institutionalization was one of the biggest crimes in the mental care system. The care people need is one on one with a well trained psychiatrist. You know how much that cost for me? $300 an hour. I was lucky because my psychiatrist was just starting her practice. She is so popular now that her fee has gone up to $400 per hour. Obviously the reason people with mental diseases never get help is because there isnt enough $$$$$ and resources. Hell one of my pills is $900 per month w/out insurance. That is only one of the 4 pills I take.

Loughner was living with his parents, which means that there is a good chance that they were aware that he had a firearm.

...all people determined (how?) to be mentally unfit. ~ BOTU

Multiple death threats and lunatic rantings about government mind control through grammar on the Web and YouTube could be a sign of an unhinged personality.

Students and professors requesting a student be removed from a class due to "disruptions" and threats of violence might also be a sign.

A police department having to call people and reassure then that he was being watched [even if he wasn't] might be sign something needs to be done.

Yeah, let's blame the state for not being intrusive enough to know that a citizen was both fabulously armed and mentally unfit. ~BOTU

When a person makes repeated death threats that get reported to the police, it's the state's job to know if the person is armed and menatlly unfit. This Sheriff and his department didn't do their job.

Instead let's blame Sarah Palin because she drew a map.

I saw a map of a World War II battlefield once. I guess now I'll have to invade France.

Swiss-

I already posted such. No repeating weapons, no more than 6 shots per magazine.

Cops often carry six-shot revolvers--I think their job is probably more dangerous than most.

Though not as dangerous as working at the AM-PM minimarts at ARCO stations. Years back, I reported that seven AM-PM mart workers had been shot to death in LA County in a one year period. They had 700 hundred stations in LA County. They work nights.

LAPD employees, about 10,000, get killed once every other year.

Working at the AM-PM is far, far more dangerous than being a cop. By about a factor of 20.

No one lionized the AM-PM mart employees back then (mid 1990s). They just died.

Later (after my reporting, but not becuase of) many more bullet-proof windows eere put in.

That's the thing with bullet-proof windows, and keeping repeating or automatic weapons off the street--the lives you save never make headlines.

oh my giod, the buttheads of the world are out. No repeating firearms only a six shot max? Ummm a bit of a contradiction there. And I dont know about your cops, but all of the cops I have seen are using either berettas or glocks, I haven;t seen a freaking revoolver on a street cop since the 70's. Your an idiot, please gag yourself. As far as some other idiot commenting on AZ's "loose" gun laws. AZ's gun laws are like the rest of the country except in "progressive" states like california, where if you are an honest citizen and wish to purchase a weapon, they put you thru hell to prove you have a right that is guaranteed by the second amendment. It is all a show of course, as the wack jobs will just go to the streets and bye more firepower with no questions asked.

BOTU,

My bad ass black shotgun can kick your baby shotgun's ass.

So there.

I already posted such. No repeating weapons, no more than 6 shots per magazine.

Revolvers carry their bullets in chambers (collectively in a cylinder), not magazines. And revolvers are repeating weapons.

Cops often carry six-shot revolvers....

Not so much anymore. These days, they carry semi-automatic pistols with large capacity magazines.

You need to turn off "Nick at Nite" and watch some more up-to-date cop shows.

LAPD employees, about 10,000, get killed once every other year.

Like most humans, an LAPD employee can only be killed once. Not every other year.

OK, BOTU, that's fab.

Now tell me how crazyboi's ability to get that 6 shot revolver instead of what he used would have affected Giffords, when she went down to the first round?

Does the odds being lower really help? What if the kid has two revolvers?

If the Sheriff and parents and anyone else do not make sure the kid can't get a weapon based on being schiz...

Is it better if he can only kill 6 with one revolver?

It's not good to let such a person have a gun. What gun they can't get is acedemic at that point. Even a derringer would be too much for him.

"Loughner was living with his parents, which means that there is a good chance that they were aware that he had a firearm." ~Len

Not necessarily. Regarding an unrelated incident:

"Police said 3 14-year-olds, a 15-year-old and a 10-year-old were playing with two guns in an upstairs bedroom in the home along Lawrence Avenue while adults were in another room [...] the 10-year-old pointed a gun at a 14-year-old, the gun went off and the child was hit by a bullet. [...] [The adults] claimed to be unaware that the children had access to guns."

http://www.wpxi.com/news/22763551/detail.html

My own neighbor was unaware that his teenage son, a minor, had a firearm - until I told him. He looked into it and found out that the kid had stolen the firearm from his uncle. The kid lived at home with both of his parents; his mom was a SAHM.

There are going to be plenty of people who fly under the radar.

I would like to do more and make more assistance available ($900 pills are out of reach for most people) to those who seek it. And I would like to learn more about how we can hold people accountable when their professional responsibilities and actual knowledge put them in a position to intervene, and they do not, and it ends as badly as was reasonably foreseeable.

Suki-

That appear to be a nice little gun, but I have a long rod that you can have a lot more fun with. Me too.

Actually, Suki, your webpage does not properly downlaod. You appear to have a virus. I take back my offer of a long rod.

Swiss-Y

ou asked what I thought, so I told you. I think there has to be some limits on firearms or other weapons, such as anthrax, or RPGs, or otherwise the loonies can hurt the rest of us.

If you say no limits, then the kook-killer-weenie-gun-nuts can buy RPGs and bioweapons? 33-shot repeating pistols? TNT? Biowastes?

Okay, you say we need some limits? Then we just disagree about what limits.

Since (likely) we both agree on some limits, then neither one of us is standing on some sort of sacred principles.

We just disagree about what limits. Wow-wee-wee.

So this is the Amy Bishop situation all over again. Wacko with well-connected family commits felonies, gets away with it, rinse repeat until he does something that draws too much media attention to let him skate anymore. Ass covering ensues. Odd that that D.A. in Massachusetts didn't think to blame Sarah Palin. Must not have had his coffee that morning.

The family has to take some of the blame for this. You do not get away with calling a dozen people and threatening to kill them unless strings are being pulled. Don't know if he was the darling of the family, or if they were concerned about protecting their "reputation", but either way their convenience was clearly more important than keeping little Johnny from blowing away half of the community. My writing skills are insufficient for expressing my contempt for them.

As for the Phelps gang, they're just plain Cluster-B-bullies. Whatever politics or philosophy they claim to adhere to is just a way of rationalizing their behavior. Like all bullies, they back down when someone fights back. If someone wants to go into one of their protests and beat the shit out of them, well gosh darn, I didn't see anything. Must've been looking the other way when it happened.

"So this is the Amy Bishop situation all over again. Wacko with well-connected family commits felonies, gets away with it, rinse repeat until he does something that draws too much media attention to let him skate anymore. Ass covering ensues. Odd that that D.A. in Massachusetts didn't think to blame Sarah Palin. Must not have had his coffee that morning."

Cousin Dave, that is what I was thinking. It will be interesting when law enforcement releases their record of contacts with this character, and the people he made death threats against come forward and start pointing fingers at specific individuals who told them that this situation was being "handled" by mental health. Seems to me some heads should roll.(I hope heads rolling is not too uncomfortable a metaphor for those blaming Sarah Palin for this):-)

BOTU knows nothing about firearms or the law.

Keep that in mind, should you have the urge to respond to what he posts directly.

So I was puttering around on Twitter earlier, and some guy that bills himself as the creative director of Nine Inch Nails says that the gun laws of Canada are looking better and better. I couldn't resist, so I told him that the gun laws here in AZ are just fine, linked him the article I posted earlier about Prohibited possessors, and he comes back at me with some NPR propaganda about how AZ has the "MOST LENIENT GUN LAWS IN THE COUNTRY"!!!
Well, color me schooled. I told him that next he'll be quoting Nambla about pedo's or something like, I lost interest at that point. Wish I could remember his name so y'all could have some fun with him.

Oh, here's the NPR article, if anyone needs a good laugh http://tinyurl.com/4eqnyvt

Arizona's gun laws, among the most lenient in the country, allowed Loughner to conceal and carry his firearm without a permit

Yes, because without that law he'd never have been able to conceal his pistol!

What they're referring to is that AZ no longer requires a state permit to carry a concealed firearm. Vermont and Alaska treat CC similarly.

I hope the people of Arizona are paying attention.

Posted by: Steve

As long as you are hoping for the impossible for those of us who live here in sandland Steve, mind conjoring me up a couple of lottery tickets from a week ago?

When I lived in PA, iirc, all I had to do was walk into a police station and ask for the CCW permit application, and when they asked me why I wanted it, tell them "Because it is my second amendment right as a citizen of the United States." It's been a long time, I may have had to sleep with someone too, I don't remember.... I'm kidding, just kidding!

Here in AZ, I see people with guns all the time. As long as it is carried out in the open, I don't believe there is even a permit required. I'm tired and don't feel like checking. My point is, as Heinlein said " A whore should be judged by the same criteria as other professionals offering services for pay -- such as dentists, lawyers, hairdressers, physicians, plumbers, etc. Is she professionally competent? Does she give good measure? Is she honest with her clients?
It is possible that the percentage of honest and competent whores is higher than that of plumbers and much higher than that of lawyers. And enormously higher than that of professors."

I would truly love to hear what he would have to say about today's journolists.

ggrrrrr
That should read:
'What he would have had to say'.

Conan: Instead let's blame Sarah Palin because she drew a map.

Conan, those who would hold Sarah Palin in any way responsible for this have a very weak argument.

Don't degrade your own side of the issue by resorting to disingenuous crap like this. Sarah Palin didn't draw a map. She had gun sights printed on a map. Which in no way makes her responsible for the actions of deranged madmen who slip through the cracks.

It actually lends credibility to those who blame Palin for this, when people try to downplay the nature of her ads. Or, like her handlers are doing, taking down the "offensive" ads and vehemently insisting that gun sights were the furthest things form their mind (yeah, right).

Sarah Palin isn't guilty of anything. Stop making it look like she is.

This past weekend a Canadian political pundit named Tarek Fatah did his best to blame Sarah Palin for everything that occurred in Tuscon on Saturday. He was truly a nasty piece of work making completely unsubstantiated charges against Palin.

Today he was on Dennis Miller's radio show and, like any bully, backed down in the face of someone who clearly wasn't going to put up with his B.S.

Note: Miller is NO big Palin fan and will almost certainly be supporting a candidate other than her when the next GOP presidential campaign begins.

I live in Az-8. I'm willing to cut Dupnik some slack. His friends were gunned down. In one of his rants, he mentioned that when he was a cop in the 60's, he could lock up nuts before they hurt someone. That changed in the 70's. We can't force people to see a doctor and take their medication. We can't lock them up for not doing so. Those are the laws we need to fix.
As for the hypocrites calling each other hypocrites? Bring it on. It saves me a lot of time when the asshats go out of their way to let me know what jerks they are. The media is in a frenzy. TV. Radio. Ratings uber alles. Condemn the coarse culture, then run a commercial for the new, and totally violent, movie.
There are some in Congress calling for gun control. Calling for speech control. But for the most part, they appear silent. Hiding in their offices. Afraid for themselves and their staff. Many of the staff are young enough to be their kids. Still idealistic. After work, they are likely friends across the aisle. After all, youthful hormones are as nonpartisan as anyone could possibly hope for. And they will miss their pal. Happy hour won't be as happy, now that there will be an empty chair where there used to be a smiling face.
Meanwhile, the battle rages. Everyone does it. Score points. Settle grudges. Get the win for your team. The winners get to divide the loot. The losers temporarily retreat, then reload.
Yes, it is all a terrible coincidence. If Christine O'Donnell was a witch, she may say that the maps are a form of sympathetic magic. But she's not a witch and neither am I. The bad words did not cause the bad deed. The one word I have yet to hear, is irony. They can't even seem to agree how ironic it is.
I was driving through that part of town today. I saw a road sign for a school. I think it was hers. There was construction, so I had to drive slow. My anger faded. All I felt, was sad.
And so it goes.

"Sarah Palin isn't guilty of anything. Stop making it look like she is."

This can't be the Patrick, can it? Here, I thought all I had to do to get him to burst into nuclear flame is post, "George Bush! Sarah Palin! Macintosh!"

-----

But let us recognize that passing laws is not a cure-all.

Radwaste: This can't be the Patrick, can it? Here, I thought all I had to do to get him to burst into nuclear flame is post, "George Bush! Sarah Palin! Macintosh!"

No, I'm secretly Crid. Patrick is simply a persona I made up. He's my liberal alter-ego.

Seriously, blaming anyone other than the shooter is a slippery slope. Now everything everyone says will be blamed for pushing someone off the deep end.

Conan: Instead let's blame Sarah Palin because she drew a map.

Conan, those who would hold Sarah Palin in any way responsible for this have a very weak argument.

Patrick, I was being sarcastic. My next line was "I saw a map of a World War II battlefield once. I guess now I'll have to invade France." As if by seeing a map with gunsights on it, Jared was incited to go shoot the Congresswoman.

That's nicely thought, Patrick. Good on ya!

You know, I know this will make me sound petty, but the thing that pisses me off most about this shooting - they rearranged regularly schedualed programing.

Now I'm going to have to spend a couple of hours trying to find out what time slot they will drop the canceled shows into(if they do at all)

All so a buch of people can feel better about themsevles and think their making a difference by going to a free concert.

And it really pises me off that businesses can buy out all the comercial interuptions and that people are stupid enough to think their doing it to bring you more of the free concert(which I'm willing to bet is primarilly lip synced)

I give blood and donate to charites all year round, but the shows I want to watch get pulled for a third rate band(screw you gin blossoms fans, they arent that great) to cash in on some good publicity, all so people who cant be bothered to donatwe before a child dies can feel good about themselves for doing something

morons

Something else occurred to me on the way to work yesterday.

Of any demographic or political stripe, who will be rushing to excuse the killer?