I learned about homeopathy many moons ago when 60 Minutes did a study on it.

It amazes me how many people fall for Zicam.

The scam that far more people fall for is astrology.

A coworker of mine is a "professional" astrologer and makes between $200 to $500 a chart for clients depending on what sort of stuff they are interested in. She makes several thousand dollars a month on the side doing it too!

If you think homeopathy is a scam, don't use it. Your problem is solved.

If you think homeopathy is a scam, don't use it. Your problem is solved. -- Patrick at February 6, 2011 5:43 AM

While I try not to use it -- the deceptive way things are labeled gets you suckered in. I had an eye that was irritated or had a minor infection. So I hit the grocery store's pharmacy section. I picked up eye drops for "pink eye". Only later did I realize that they were homeopathic.

Yes I'm guilty of not reading the label.

Thanks for posting, Amy! I can't tell you how many people we've seen in our hospital that used "all natural" crap until they got really sick, because - surprise - that stuff does nothing.

@Patrick, for adults, that is fine. But the problem is that I have seen lots of kids who's parents have fallen for the whole homeopathy bullshit when what the kid needs is antibiotics. Two weeks ago, in fact, a 3 year old girl came into our ER with her left eardrum ruptured. Her parents had been giving her some crap they picked up at a health food store. What she needed was amoxicillin, not onion juice (which it turns out this crap was).

People accuse those of us who work in traditional medical fields of wanting to make a buck, when in actuality, it is those who peddle this "naturopathy" bull that have nothing but dollar signs on the brain.

Also thanks Amy- I truly learn new things every week on your blog. I bought Zicam which was right next to the Advil and Alleve and all the other cold products. There is no mention of it being homeopathic and the fine print is so fine even with good eyes you can't read it. I'm a little more than pissed off I have wasted 3 days now hacking away all night and been scammed to boot.

PS- Go Packers!

@UW Girl, there's a difference between homeopathy and home remedies, like honey or onion juice. Of course, when a child needs an antibiotic, neither onion juice or homeopathic stuff is going to work, but homeopathic "medicines" are even more ridiculous. Some home remedies do work, especially when it comes to treating symptoms of viruses and making a cold or flu a little easier to endure. For example, the kid with a cough in Amy's other blog post could've been helped by a couple spoonfuls of honey. Honey really does coat the throat and relieve the soreness a little and the sweetness helps calm a kid down (for most kids; some have different reactions).

Homeopathy, unlike natural remedies, naturopathy, home remedies, whatever is just water. Magic water. Literally. Homeopathy starts with some ingredient that seems counterintuitive to treat the problem (like coffee bean to cure insomnia) and then dilutes it with ordinary free-from-the-tap water till there's no detectable amount of the ingredient left. If I ever lose my conscience/soul I'm starting a homeopathic "medicine" company and putting plain tap water in little capsules to cure insomnia and erectile dysfunction and whatever else I can think of.

I come from an Italian neighborhood where someone's grandma always has some "cure" that will surely work. I have to admit that some were helpful. Olive oil helped for many things, sort of like the windex in Big Fat Greek Wedding, lol. Seriously though, tea with honey is a comfort and cuts down on chest congestion and sore throats. But nobody's grandma would ever give someone with bronchitis olive oil and honey. She'd be threatening the parents for not taking her precious grandbaby to the doctor. Although I do have to say I know quite a few who drink a glass of Sambuca every night swearing the alcohol kills germs and they never get sick.

As far as I know, homeopathy doesn't believe that the more you take of something, the more effective it would be, so by that theory downing the whole bottle wouldn't be more effective.

I've seen homeopathy work on animals... and it seems unlikely to be placebo in their case. Though mere coincidence is a possibility.

Wow. I have never heard of homeopathy. I mean, I've heard the word, but I just associated it with some hippie bullshit like crystal therapy or something. I had no idea that it was sitting there on the shelves posing as real medicine.

Careful Amy, you seem to be asking "big government" to step in and regulate something.

This guy makes a good point, but I couldn't help imagining him jumping off a chuck wagon, doing a few barrel roll dance moves, and serving me some beans over a campfire.

To expand on what UW Girl said: There are laws about advertising claims, particularly medical claims. Further, the FDA has the authority to regulate drugs based not only on safety, but also efficacy: In order to get a drug approved by the FDA, you have to not only prove that it won't kill anyone, you have to prove that it actually does what you claim it does.

For reasons I don't understand, the whole alternative-medicine crowd is permitted to violate all of these laws at will. They make claims that they cannot substantiate, and their products aren't tested for safety. It's quack medicine all over again -- the very reason the FDA was created in the first place. Now, we can argue that the FDA oversteps its bounds, but as things stand today, the law is the law. Except when it isn't, which is in the case of the alternative-medicine makers.

What this means is that in the public debate about mainstream vs. alternative medicine, the side that has the science on its side is forced to fight with one hand behind its back. Mainstream drug makers' claims are strictly regulated; they have to offer up significant evidence before they can make a claim. However, the alternative crowd can make any claim they want, and then the scientists have to disprove it. It's a lot faster and easier to make up bullshit than it is to disprove it, so most alternative medicine claims go unchallenged.

So,we have the situation where alternative medicine is viewed very favorably, while the public regards the mainstream drug industry with suspicion. The alternative producers also have a huge price advantage; for most of their products their production costs are minimal, and they have no R&D expenses and no cost of regulatory compliance. Given all this, it's not much of a surprise that a lot of the public regards mainstream pharmaceuticals as a scam.

I'm not saying alternative medicine should be banned. But why should it, alone among most any industry on the market, be exempt from having to prove its claims? If I sell washing machines, and I claim that my machines clean clothes better than brand X, I'd better be able to prove it or I'll get sued. But if I sell fish oil and I claim that it cures everything from cancer to dandruff, I skate. Why? If we're going to regulate medical claims, than alternative medicine should be made to prove its claims like everyone else has to. And it's not like all alternative medicines are safe either. For instance, I see lots of zinc supplements where one tablet is 7-8 times the recommended daily allowance. Zinc in that high a dose is toxic.

@NicoleK - If you've seen homeopathy work on animals, there was nothing wrong with them that you didn't imagine in the first place. Homeopathy is based on the premise that water has "memory" and that by diluting and shaking a concoction a specific way a certain number of times makes the water "remember" the medicine and therefore act like it in the body. Homeopathy is BULLSHIT. NEW AGE MOTHERFUCKING BULLSHIT.

Naturopathy, herbal remedies, etc. are another ball of wax altogether. Some are bullshit, some are not. Things like chicken soup, tea, etc. do have some effect on the symptoms of common colds (for which there is no effective cure, only the relief of symptoms until the body catches up with the virus).

My dog responded well to glucosamine for her arthritis early on. When it got worse (several years on), I had no choice but to turn to actual drugs for her.

But if I sell fish oil and I claim that it cures everything from cancer to dandruff, I skate.

Well, I can attest to the fish oil and dandruff thing, at least in Dobermans. Cancer? Not likely.

And the way the homeopaths skate is the same way that "5 hour energy" and "enzyte" get to make their claims: "This product has not been evaluated by the FDA and is not intended to relieve or cure any illness or disease."

In other words, they are telling you up front that they know they are peddling bullshit and that they have no intention of submitting it to scientific scrutiny.

If you think homeopathy is a scam, don't use it. Your problem is solved.

This guy's kid surely suffered because her dad is a dipshit. And an upper-class dipshit at that. This was a man who looked like he attended a good college and had a job that paid well.

If you think homeopathy is a scam, don't use it. Your problem is solved.

No. My problem is that bullshit artists are preying on stupids, keeping them stupid, and they continue to support new-age bullshit thinking. This inevitably leads to more Obamas being elected.

If we want to have a strong civilization, we all have an obligation to fight bullshit wherever it shows up.

In the case of new-age bullshit, it is FAR more effective to educate the likely dupes than it is to control the bullshit directly through things like the FDA, as the new-age bullshit peddlers always use that as evidence that "evil corporations" are trying to shut them up.

Hell, look how Jenny McCarthy doubled down on stupid after Wakefield was discredited. New agers need to be excised from polite society before they do any more harm.

It annoys me that the division between homeopathy and alternative medicine isn't defined well enough or understood by people. Not all "alternative medicine" is homeopathy. I personally use a lot of psuedo-science treatments that actually work, but they tend to get lumped into wacky-homeopathy by other people. (It drives me nuts when my family does this.)

For example, I was strongly discouraged, I dare say threatened, by my pediatrician that if I didn't use antibiotics for my daughter's ear infection, she might lose her hearing or die. I used breastmilk and it cleared up in two days. (Admittedly, ear infections tend to get better on their own after a week anyway.) Also for the ear, hydrogen peroxide is great for clearing out the Eustachian tubes assisting in fighting off head colds. Both topical and oral Grapefruit Seed Extract kills yeast/thrush infections despite the official research not supporting that claim.

I came down with a nasty cold a few days ago, and I started up on 200% the RDA of Zinc. My sister has tested her personal reaction to it for the past few years (she's also an R.N.) and swears by it to keep away colds. I feel better about 1 hour after taking the pill, and can feel it "wear off" later in the day.

Some psuedo-science is valid, and some "science" is total crap. An individual's body chemistry needs to be taken into account when figuring out the best course of treatment. I'm glad Randi is educating people on labeling practices. However, I do not want any regulation on my alternative medicines. Caveat emptor, thank you very much.

I'm not sure if what the fuss is all about.

Following the rule of "first do no harm", homeopathy is an economically costly good intention. But I really wouldn't want to see it any other way.

The lottery is a costly good intention, lining the states pockets largely on the backs and dreams of poor people. A free choice is free, its consequences are not.

Besides, the placebo effect is a real phenomenon. I'd rather have the freedom to down a handful of sugar pills than to be coerced into taking "real" medicine.

Nobody's talking coercion here Jonathon. We're talking about people who are being fatally duped into forgoing medical treatment in favor of "magical" water.

I actually go to homeopaths frequently. I'm skeptical myself, but my mom nags me into it, and she pays for it, so I go because what the hey.

There seem to be misconceptions about homeopathy.First of all, just because some box is labeled "homeopathic" doesn't mean it is. Mainly because homeopathy is very much a process. Remedies are individualized. If Amy goes to the homeopath with a sore throat, and I do as well, odds are high we won't get the same remedy, though we might.

When you go to the homeopath (if you do, hopefully you're going to an MD), they will ask you a bunch of questions. You describe your symptoms, and it gets pretty specific like whether they're better morning or night, in hot or cold weather, what the mucus looks like, how you're feeling emotionally, socially, etc. This usually takes an hour. Then you get a remedy.

You can also get a do it yourself book, which will list a bunch of remedies and the symptoms going with them. Again, very specific.

If you take the wrong remedy, usually nothing happens. Nothing is supposed to happen. If you take the right remedy, in theory it should work. We can get into whether it is placebo or not.

But a one-size-fits-all pill off the shelf, that's not really homeopathy.

I've been taking Zinc Metallicum the past few days, due to stress. I'm feeling much better. Maybe it is placebo. If so, who cares?

Brian, I've seen homeopathy cure a tumor in an animal. A tumor is pretty obvious.

But again, it could have been coincidence, I don't know.

Fatally duped! Please....

Are people denied access to information that is available to you and to me?

No.

Don't be so melodramatic.

I would think it tragic that a cancer patient might forsake modern medicine and fly off to Lourdes in search of holy magical waters, but freedom is a tough pill to swallow (sorry about the pun).

What are you going to do? Deny that person a visa, make them stay in the country and follow a medical path which could be toxic and painful, even if the alternative is deadly?

It is your body, if you want to treat a serious disease with ambient sound waves... by what authority should anyone intervene?

I would say that homeopathy is like anything, it has opportunity for exploitation.
Do I think it works? I do to some extent. Before industrialization & big pharmaceutical companies. People used home remedies. Astrology and homeopathy has it's roots in Chinese medicine, if anyone has used acupuncture you can attest it works. It doesn't mean I am going to be eating pickled snakes anytime soon.
There was a time, when if a person thought the world was round you were considered insane by the establishment and the belief of "bleeding" an illness was establishment medicine and is said to be what killed George Washington.
Vitamin C fixed scurvy, bread mold has fixed almost everything. Cherry fixes the gout. St Johns wort is prescribed for depression in other countries not here , it's an herb. Taurine ( simulated bull semen) and B vitamins are in energy drinks, why do you think it is called " Red Bull"?
If we didn't have outside the box thinking we would never move forward or have penicillin.
I think you have to pick and chose what is right for you and your life. I personally wouldn't discount it.

Wanda and Jonathon - you are using the wrong definition of "homeopathy" which works to the fraudsters benefit.

"homeopathy" is nothing more than water. If the "doctor" starts using terms like "memory" and "dilution" you are talking to a homeopath. This person is either a quack, simply taking your money under false pretenses, or a new-age true believer who fell for some quack's line of bullshit.

Nicole - I'll wager you saw no such thing. Either it was a medication that impacted the tumor, or there was no tumor to begin with. Magic water cannot by definition cure anything except thirst.

Wanda - Vitamin C is not homeopathy - it is a chemical substance with known and proven impact on human physiology. Some herbal distillation that's been diluted 100,000:1 and shaken 72 times is just water, and cures only psychosomatic illness.

Just because the placebo effect works does not mean that someone should be allowed to sell something as treatment that is not.

I have no problem with people buying this shit for themselves. They die, it's no skin off my back. But when they decide that the cure for their baby involves incantations and laying on of hands, I intervene. You have no right in the modern world to condemn someone to death because you believe stupid new-age shit.

Wanda - Taurine is not semen or simulated semen. it's a component of ox bile.

Google is your friend.

You're welcome. I've been reading TMR lately, and the linkage between new-agers and commies is way too strong to be a mere coincidence.

So I view fighting new-agers as simply an extension of fighting against commies and progressives.

The Macho Response. http://themachoresponse.blogspot.com/

He's a bit harsh, but he gores oxen that desperately need goring. I'm still not willing to say that new-age cultism caused Jared Loughner, though. I'm more willing to accept that he was mentally ill, and easily swayed to believe in nonsense explanations that fed his paranoid delusions.

But there's a fine line between willing dupe and mentally ill, it seems. Finding people who fall for new-age bullshit might be a good way of screening the Loughners out and getting them into some kind of treatment or facility before they have their psychotic break.

As for homeopathy curing a tumor in an animal, giving an animal a pill that has no medicine in it isn't going to cure anything. Did the animal actually have a tumor or was it misdiagnosed?

This. This is how I determined that glucosamine/chondroitin/methylsulfonamine methane are not bullshit. Dogs don't have the requisite intellect to fall for the placebo effect, they just know you gave them something to eat. My dog stopped favoring her right hip after about a month of being on the stuff after Rimadyl made her violently ill. Yes, she was diagnosed by the vet with actual arthritis, and suggested the alternative treatment to see if it helped because the arthritis was relatively mild.

It didn't prevent the arthritis from getting worse, but it did make it take much longer to get there, and a new medicine had come out that was supposed to avoid nausea (it did). Once she was on that (I forget the name) she was like a puppy again at 11.

Give your dog some "homeopathic" remedy for joint pain, that dog will still be limping, and I'll come kick your ass for being cruel to the dog.

I looked it up - Deramaxx. Newer COX-2 inhibitor with fewer side effects than Rimadyl.

Brian- et al.

I'm disgusted with parents who wield their new-age philosophy over the long term health benefits of their children. It's a crime and should be prosecuted forthrightly.

But at the heart of the subject of homeopathy is the fallout of confidence with modern medicine. Many years ago I had a bout of major depression and went to see a psychiatrist as an intelligent and informed person should do. The doctor quickly put me on a medication which caused my situation to deteriorate. When I asked the doctor when things would get better she told me that I have to need to have patience and that it can take some time. Three months later I was placed on another medication. After many months on the second medication I was placed on a third and then a fourth. By the end of the year I had been on ten different medications. The doctor knew that I was suffering but seemed more concerned with patient turnover than with precision. I felt completely out of control with the process. So I turned to homeopathy, if only to learn that a chemical imbalance of neurotransmitters in the brain is not the same as a vitamin deficiency. I think my experience is pretty common. It's part of the human learning curve that makes a person more intelligent and wise.

At least with homeopathy I had some control instead of ceding it over to a physician who might seem indifferent, or too busy or maybe just plain ignorant as to how individuals differ from one to another.
For instance I am very sensitive to medication and yet most physicians I have seen, with full knowledge of my senstivity will prescribe medications right out of the PDR guidelines. (Meaning: full dose therapy, maximized for negative side effects)

Quackery comes in all forms.
A doctor who doesn't consult fully with his/her patient is a quack.
A doctor who prescribes powerful and potentially dangerous medications without performing a physical examination is a quack.
A homeopath who tells a depressed individual that B-12 injections will alleviate suicidal thoughts is a quack (and a criminal, but without the carapace offered by the medical profession).

You see, quacks come in all forms and there are many ill-informed practitioners of alternative medicine and there are state licensed well educated quacks working in hospitals and clinics.

The basis of the subject is a little more complicated than selling miracle water.

Homeopathic humor:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMGIbOGu8q0

Jonathon - homeopaths, by definition, DO NOT SELL REMEDIES, THEY SELL WATER. If they differed from the "water memory" and crystal bullshit, then they weren't homeopaths.

And if your doctor prescribes a medication and you take it without question, you're not doing your job. If your doctor recoils when you question him, or when you research the drugs yourself, then you need a better doctor.

When I was diagnosed with general anxiety disorder, I had a pretty good idea of what was wrong with me (from having friends with the same issues) and researched the drugs commonly on offer. The doctor was pleased that I had taken the time to educate myself.

If your doctor is not so inclined, then you have not a doctor, but a man who would be god.

Like I said Brian, could have been coincidence, and the tumor may have just gone into remission on its own. I've known quite a few people, too, who took homeopathy and had cancer go into remission, but that could have been the placebo effect. Or it could have been the cancer was going to heal itself anyways with no intervention. We'll never know.

Anyhow, my kid recently had a feeding problem that ended up having 2 hospitalizations which did jack shit, but shortly after a visit to the osteopath and homeopath she's doing much better. Did the problem just clear up on its own? Highly possible. Was there never a problem to begin with, just a pediatrician obsessed with charts? Even more likely. Still, I noticed a big difference after those two visits, vs no positive difference after the hospitalizations (in fact they hurt more than they helped).

Does that mean I'm not going to the hospital again if there's some problem in the future? Of course not. And anyone who doesn't give antibiotics for, say, strep, is an idiot.

Amy: And thank you, Brian, for batting clean-up.

Brian I tend to dismiss as an immature Rush-bot, which he is. Notice a discussion on homeopathy launched him into a discussion of Obama --obsessed much? But his hatred of the free elections that the U.S. supports is for another time.

He didn't bat clean-up. He fouled out.

Amy, people have the right to choose whatever form of medical treatment they wish. They also have the right to do so for their children. Do you have the right to object, point to whatever supports your position and discredits theirs? Yes, you do.

Do you have the right to mandate that they follow what you consider to be the best course of treatment for their children? No, you don't.

As I said before, if you don't believe in homeopathy, don't use it. Your problem, and Brian's, is solved.

You have no right to solve anyone else's problems for them when your help is not requested.

Amy is right. There are alot of things that are wrong with modern medicine. Too many doctors I know rely on too little information from patients. Know why on "House" Dr. House always says patients lie? Because they do. Lie. A lot. So there's problem #1 - doctors and nurses not working with a true whole picture. Problem #2 is that we do rely too much on pharmaceuticals to fix everything instantly from blood pressue to depression. Every person is different and requires to be treated as such.

For all the folks on here who claim that an all natural therapy has worked for them (or their dog) at some point...you do realize that many of our medications are derived from plants, right? Codeine comes from poppys. Hesperidin comes from oranges. No one in traditional medicine has ever said that nature has nothing to offer as far as curatives. However, there needs to be a significant amount of research and verification before they are used to treat diseases.

Bottom line is that you need to have a good doctor who will listen to you, and you need to tell him/her the truth about how you feel, what you're eating, etc. Ask him/her if it's ok to take mega-doses of zinc, for example, when you've got a cold. Most of the doctors I know would shrug and say 'I'm not sure it works, but it isn't going to hurt'.

Interesting presentation. The theory makes sense, except that some things just work without making sense.

I've used many homeopathic remedies, including sleep remedies. Some of them have worked for me and some have not. Could it all be in my head? Absolutely. But it doesn't matter to me if it's only in my head, because if my issue is resolved, it was worth the expense.

I did have an unexplainable experience very early on in my experiments with non-traditional treatments.

Around age 30 I discovered a lump in my breast and and my Dr. recommended a mammogram. I had a mammogram, and a lump was confirmed. I was told it appeared to be cancer but I would have to have a biopsy to find out if it was malignant or not, and then they would recommend a treatment plan.

I had three young children who knew nothing of any of this, and I did not want to frighten them with my potential diagnosis. I had always trusted my Doctors and had never tried anything 'alternative' or 'homeopathic'.

That night after putting them to bed, I scoured the internet and found an article about a Dr. who cured his cancer with "energized" water. I found several gems, devices, and other hokey sounding things that claimed to energize water and cure just about any ailment. I decided to purchase one that had supposedly been discovered by Tesla (My thinking was "he was a real scientist, right?")

I purchased a "purple plate." I was not at home when the package was delivered, so I had to go pick it up at the post office. They gave me the package and we left. When I put my preschooler in the car she asked me if she could open my package. Kids do love to open packages. I said sure and started driving home. My daughter opened the package and unwrapped the purple plate, which was 3"x4" piece of anodized aluminum. She held it with both hands and said "mom, why is it vibrating?" I don't know why my five year old knew the word "vibrating," but most importantly, she had no idea what was in the package, what the intended purpose of the item was, or whether or not it was supposed to feel any certain way. As for me, I could not feel anything from it at all.

After doing some reading on the web, I discovered that this magical plate could change the taste of things, like water, but even more drastically for coffee or orange juice. I took the plate home and placed it under a glass of water. After a few minutes, the water tasted different. "Fresher", or "Cleaner" maybe. A few minutes after drinking this water, I felt a rush of energy, as though I'd consumed several cups of coffee, but not as jittery.

A few days later, a friend came by to visit, and while he was in the restroom, I got the purple plate and put it under the bottle of gatorade he had brought with him. I put the plate back away before he came back out of the restroom and we continued visiting. He continued to drink from it and then took it with him when he left. A few minutes after he left, he called me and asked me what I did to his gatorade, and told me he had a huge energy rush from it that had never happened to him from gatorade before.

The biggest difference I notice is when I put it under a cup of coffee, the coffee tastes smoother and less acidic.

My thoughts on it are this: If it can make water and other liquids "cleaner", what if it can do the same thing to the blood running through my body? I have carried this purple plate for nearly ten years now. I still use it daily. I've never had cancer, and that lump in my breast was never seen or felt again.

Since then, I've used other alternative remedies like "rescue remedy", which is a homeopathic water that has diluted floral essences or something like that. It does indeed have a calming effect on me, and also on my cat when I've had to take her to the vet. She used to suffer extreme anxiety (hissing, crying, panting, & vomiting) when forced into a carrier.

While I don't agree that alternative treatment should replace traditional medical care, I do believe some homeopathic alternative treatments do have some value.

I also believe that medical doctors have no financial interest in seeing their patients cured, because if they cured them all, wouldn't they go broke for lack of business? My doctor is an MD, but she frequently recommends treatments that are not drugs, such as supplements, and does not discount the value of homeopathic remedies that she can see through my improved health have worked.

If you think homeopathy is a scam, don't use it. Your problem is solved.

Homeopathy is basically H2O. These people should be prosecuted for fraud.

Where's the FDA when you need them? Oh, that's right, they're making actual drug manufacturers miserable.

I'm frequently disgusted by the reverence I hear for "Chinese medicine."

Chinese "medicine" equals forced abortions and harvesting organs from political prisoners. Of course, that's actually over in China.

Over here, I've heard that acupuncture has had positive results.

Just wanted to be sure that people understood that children under 5 (or it could be 4) are not suppose to take cough medicine. This is per the latest recommendations of pediatricians. It is on the label of the medicine.

The pro homeopath people don't seem to be getting, after NUMEROUS posts, that homeopathy is water. Period. There are natural cures, natural things that can relieve symptoms. They aren't homeopathy. Most ear infections will clear themselves. A few won't. Any infection will eventually either get better or kill you, depending on it's strength and your immune system. But they can do a lot of damage before they clear up-and one of the things ear infections can damage is your hearing. Strep can damage your heart before your body fights it off and you won't know it right away. We don't get antibiotics for every little thing here, but if they're in pain on advil, we go to the Dr. And if it's bad enough to need the Dr, it needs antibiotics if it's bacterial.

There is a world of difference in a terminal adult choosing alt meds, and a parent choosing that as a first line for their kids. And yes Patrick, we do get to tell parents how to treat their kids, it's part and parcel of the abuse/neglect laws. Parents who fail to follow the medically accepted standard of care for their children are asking for the law to intervene, and if it finds out it will. Rightly so.

momof4: There is a world of difference in a terminal adult choosing alt meds, and a parent choosing that as a first line for their kids. And yes Patrick, we do get to tell parents how to treat their kids, it's part and parcel of the abuse/neglect laws. Parents who fail to follow the medically accepted standard of care for their children are asking for the law to intervene, and if it finds out it will. Rightly so.

As always, you are wrong. Religious exemption laws from medical care do exist, and do protect parents who wish to not do the medical route for their children.

I would like to take a moment and point out to Amy that you can't just get baby benadryl. Or baby dimatapp either. People were using them to knock their kids out and now they are illegal. There was a major case here in Tn. where a little girl needed to have a liver transplant because of her mother using it to drug her to sleep. You can still get infant Motrin for some reason but nothing else for anyone under age 2. If you ask the pharmacist how much you need to give an infant they will tell you they can't instruct you on dosage for the regular dimatapp, you have to go to the doctor and get a prescription. So maybe it's best of some people give their kiddos water.

Honey is a useful medicine for sore throats and cuts and scrapes. It contains hydrogen peroxide. Hydrogen peroxide has anti-bacterial properties. That's why honey does not spoil in the bee hive. Too much honey can give you a sore throat because too much peroxide is caustic. Moderation please.

A beekeeper.

People were using them to knock their kids out and now they are illegal. There was a major case here in Tn. where a little girl needed to have a liver transplant because of her mother using it to drug her to sleep.

How is that any different than a mother dosing her kid with honey and everclear 190 proof on a nightly basis?

There is a difference between homeopathy and natural cures. The difference between willow bark and aspirin is concentration. The difference between zinc supplements (30-50mg) and Zicam is different (zinc acetate (2X = 1/100th dilution) and zinc gluconate (1X = 1/10th dilution)) is the same.

"As always, you are wrong. Religious exemption laws from medical care do exist, and do protect parents who wish to not do the medical route for their children."

And as almost always (there are no certainties in life after all) you haven't bothered to research. Religious exemption isn't a silver bullet, and parents have been successfully prosecuted for refusing treatment for their kids on religious grounds. As they should be. And I say that as a religious person. If god wanted us ignorant and dead, he wouldn't have given us brains and the ability to know right from wrong.

"Dietrich Mateschitz was inspired by an already existing drink called Krating Daeng which he discovered in Thailand. He took this idea, and to suit the tastes of Westerners, modified the ingredients,[2] and founded Austrian Red Bull GmbH in partnership with Chaleo Yoovidhya. Chaleo Yoovidhya invented the Thai energy drink Krating Daeng; in Thai daeng is red, and krating is the reddish brown bovine, gaur, an impressive animal larger than the bison."

"Taurine occurs naturally in food, especially in seafood and meat. ......Despite being present in many energy foods, taurine has not been proven to be energy-giving. A study of mice hereditarily unable to transport taurine suggests that it is needed for proper maintenance and functioning of skeletal muscles."

"As always, you are wrong. Religious exemption laws from medical care do exist, and do protect parents who wish to not do the medical route for their children."

You say that like it's a good thing. Yes, there rae exemptions, and my husband and his colleagues have had to stand back and watch children die while their parents prayed over them when a simple treatment could have cured them. Why they ever check into the hospital is beyond me, if they're just going to have them lie in the bed and die while the parents refuse treatment.

I think the one thing that bothers me is when people bring up the crap with Chinese Medicine and it pisses me off because when I think Chinese Medicine I think of skinned dog carcasses hanging on wires. Yep here in Korea the have a long history of Oriental Medicine and one of those beliefs with it comes that for men to get a stiff dick they should eat some dog soup so we have restaurants that will kill and eat mans best friend to give men that little bit of extra zoom. Or lets try an arthritic drink for old people. Take a large pot and fill with water and some herbs, get a cat break it legs to reduce struggling and toss it alive into the boiling water. Cook until the flesh liquefies. I hear it works great for arthritis. Just think a little about the above.

Also have people thought about what would happen in water had Memory. A beaver shitting in a river half a world away would have infected half the world with god knows what kind of diseases. Take you normal tap water and it would have the memory of arsenic, hormones, Sally's gallblader, lead, it gets beyond ridiculous.

Vix give me a break. You are using the old line of Doctors do not want to cure their patients. Bullshit. The old medical conspiracy theory. Doctors keep us sick to line their pockets.

A point it is the opposite for doctors versus natural health practitioners, ask many people who use them both who asks you to come back again and again and again. Alternative medicine practitioners are more likely to have a person come back and back again. Chiropractors are renowned for telling a person that their problems need to be solved with more then one good back crack they need to visit regularly for many adjustments. Same with many Nautropaths and other health quacks. They tell you to try something and it does not work so they say lets try something else or we need to give it more time. Because they need to squeeze as much money out of the client/sucker while they can. You know what I have been to more doctors that will give me pills that works and kick me out the door
then want to see me back.

Vix yes you had a lump in your breast and ...? Well you never did tell us the results of the biopsy. SO I am going to assume it was just a lump and not cancerous.

With the magical plate and your five your old feeling the amazing energy. Your daughter was 5 years old. They are very very fanciful. I teach kids that thing they can shoot thunderbolts from their hands or they can fight like Ninjas or they are fairy princesses. Why do I not have them locked up for being crazy is because they are little kids with big imaginations. Ask yourself have you listen to ALL what your daughter has said about everything from she saw a monkey in the tree last night or that see likes to fly. You remember her comments because your mind attributed some sort of importance to it.

As to your tastes with drinks and food put on the MAGIC plate, it is part of the placebo experience. You spent good money on a plate and you tricked/believed yourself to thinking that it worked and changed things tastes.

To your friend and the Gatorade rush, hmm. How gullible are they? I would more likely attribute the sugar in the drink and what normally drinks then to the plate. I bet you have used the plate on tonnes of other times on peoples drinks or food and yet out of the hundred times one story comes up. Do you have more stories about the magic plate. Or is it just the two.

NowI have decided to start a Homeopathic cannibalistic practice. Well I have heard of many people who have beat cancer, so I am thinking find said person and get some of their flesh, if need be kill the person and I will sell the meat to people who suffer from the same cancer. I do not need to feed a whole bunch of the flesh just a little because the flesh holds the memories of the cure of the disease. It must work, because if I can eat a little of a flower and it can pass on attributes to me it must work the same for meat. This can also work for many problems - fat people can eat skinny people flesh to absorb the qualities of the thin person it can be a diet alternative. Slow and unintelligent people who want to improve their memory or thinking can eat MENSA members. Old people who are suffering from arthritis can eat young children flesh as they move quickly and easily. Think for a GOD damn minute people. Of the silliness of the above crap. Homeopathy uses attributes of plants, Chinese medicine uses the attributes of animals like tigers thinking it will pass them on to people. It is magical and silly thinking.

John, if I could reach through the computer and hug you for that post, I would. You're on fire!

Orac, at Respectful Insolence, just linked to the 10:23 campaign, a worldwide protest to raise awareness about the "unscientific and absurd pseudoscience" of homeompathy, "which persists today as an accepted form of complementary medicine, despite there never having been any reliable scientific evidence that it works."

Here's a piece from 10:23 about what the harm is in homeopathy:

http://www.1023.org.uk/whats-the-harm-in-homeopathy.php

'because if they cured them all, wouldn't they go broke for lack of business? '

Curing people of a disease (cancer for instance) does not keep other people from getting that disease, so your idea of doctors running out of sick people does not make sense. If a cure for cancer is developed, money will be made from treating people. Go to a Walk For Life sometime and talk to cancer survivors. They were cured and are grateful. Doctors cured those people. You're going round a bizarre bend when you start to claim that doctors don't want find cures.

"If you think homeopathy is a scam, don't use it. Your problem is solved."

If I only cared about myself...

crella, the reason people who refuse medical care use the hospital is so they can 'prove' how religious they are.

Quite frankly I never understood why once someone refues care the hospital doesnt wheel them out to the curb

They can't do that either. They can't legally refuse to hospitalize them, and they can't kick them out either.

It proves their so religious that they don't care if their kids die to prove it.

Momof4: And as almost always (there are no certainties in life after all) you haven't bothered to research. Religious exemption isn't a silver bullet, and parents have been successfully prosecuted for refusing treatment for their kids on religious grounds.

And cases against these parents have also been dismissed for that very reason.

Keep it up! You're batting zero!

crella: Yes, there rae exemptions, and my husband and his colleagues have had to stand back and watch children die while their parents prayed over them when a simple treatment could have cured them.

And of course, a child with a supposedly treatable illness has never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever died under medical care.

Never, never, never, never, never, never...when an illness is supposedly curable, 100% of the time everyone's cured when they get the right treatment.

What you claim is motivated by caring about others is nothing but self-righteous busybodyism. Parents have the right to make their decisions for themselves and their children, and that right is sacrosanct. Mind your own business.

So, again...if you are against homeopathy, don't use it. Your problem is solved.

James Randi has, many times, downed an entire bottle of homeopathic sleeping pills and lived to tell -- and stayed wide awake, to boot - Actually, the reaction which he got is exactly the way it should have been. Homeopathy is based not on suppression of symptoms and replacing them with new ones, but on the principle that small doses of substances which create symptoms of a problem in the body will make the body react to it and eventually balance itself because of the symptom being created by a foreign object. Excess of homeopathic medicine will only make the symptoms worse.

So in the case of homeopathic sleeping pills, the effect is to cause a very mild sleeplessness when taken in the recommended dose and the body reacts appropriately by inducing sleep. Excess of homeopathic pills will only keep the person awake the whole night instead of causing death unlike allopathy

"And of course, a child with a supposedly treatable illness has never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever died under medical care......100% of the time everyone's cured "

Cute. I said that, did I? Treatment gives you a much better chance of being cured than prayer vigils! Do you have any stats re how many people yearly lose their lives due to using 'alternative' medications instead of proven (double-blind tested, clinical trial-tested) medicine? Doctors are required to reveal patient death stats as well as adverse reaction stats, the 'alternate' practitioners are under no such obligation.

"What you claim is motivated by caring about others is nothing but self-righteous busybodyism."

If you want to ignore your fellow man and look the other way when con artists are bilking them, be my guest. That's your prerogative, not mine. Evil people taking advantage of and deceiving others need to be stopped, their shiftiness needs to be brought to light. So some kids get killed or go deaf...it's not you, so it's ok. I see.

The pro homeopath people don't seem to be getting, after NUMEROUS posts, that homeopathy is water. Period. There are natural cures, natural things that can relieve symptoms. They aren't homeopathy.

Because it's easy for the uninitiated to make this mistake and confuse store-bought "natural remedies" with homeopathy, I think it's a /bad/ idea to urge people to down an entire bottle of something for demonstrative purposes.

So, again...if you are against homeopathy, don't use it. Your problem is solved.

Amen. This isn't much different from the fast-food debate. It's not the government's job to protect us from our own stupidity.

Amen. This isn't much different from the fast-food debate. It's not the government's job to protect us from our own stupidity.

That's as may be, but it IS the government's job to ensure that McDonalds doesn't sell us cow pies and call them 100% beef.

You are arguing for someone's right to be stupid. The rest of us are arguing against someone's right to be lied to.

@RedJAresh - THERE IS NO ACTIVE INGREDIENT IN HOMEOPATHIC REMEDIES.

You are engaging in fraud, which is a crime, when you promote "magic water" as a cure or treatment for anything.

NO, Patrick, you are. What part of SUCCESSFULLY prosecuted did you not understand? Obviously our legal system isn't 100% evenly applied, people get off for murders they committed, and parents get off sometimes when other parents don't. Idiot.

Eater doesn't make you sleepy. It doesn't get rid of teething pain. It doesn't stop your cough, or shorten your flu. All it does is hydrate you an infinitesimal amount, in these "treatments".

"Parents have the right to make their decisions for themselves and their children, and that right is sacrosanct."

Nope. Idiotic to even say so. Parents can not simply decide they aren't sending their kids to school. Parents can not simply decide they're going to kill their kids and send them on to heaven or nirvana or whereever and save them this life of "torment". Parents can not decide they are going to lock their kids in their rooms for days or weeks. Parents can not decide not to feed their kids. Parents can not decide to feed their kids poison. Parents can not decide to beat their kids with a 2x4 for misbehaving. Parents can not decide they are going to make their kids sleep outside in a dog house. There are an almost infinite number of things a parent most assuredly can not decide for their kids, all having to do with their health and wellbeing. I repeat-idiot.

Klaatu Barada Nikto

Man Rad-Man - you gave one of the classic lines/ excuses with alternative medicine heck religion. It did not work (Randi dieing by overdose) because he did not do it right. He did not follow the rules or understand that it has be done a certain way.

So in a sense Homeopathy will not work if you take more of it. That goes against logic and how the human body works. Sorry, tough shit things do not work that way.

Give any items and have a human ingest it, how much they ingest will effect what it does to them. Eat too many carrots you turn orange, drink to much water your kidneys shut down, eat too much of anything the body will overdose or have problems. Too much Heroin a person will likely overdoses. Everything works that way with the Human body.

But for homeopathy it does not work that way it ignores the laws of bio-physics or biomechanics or what ever. So if more is not good why do the keep diluting something to 30th degree and sometimes so by your logic diluting less would be better not more.

Thanks great idea I can now sell Homeopathic JUNK FOOD. I tell the person they need to eat only so much you will gain weight but if you eat too many or much you will not gain any weight because the effect does not work that way because it is Homeopathic. So later when a thousand fattiesare yelling at me saying they ate too much and they gained weight I can just say you did not eat too much and they have some more Homeopathic Chocolate Cake (tm). Or as you are saying YOU DID NOT DO IT RIGHT!

For those wondering the words at the beginning....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ox1A6CUW4W0&feature=related

Regarding the dog/tumor thing, there are types of tumors that do go away on their own. I know because my anatolian shepherd was just diagnosed with this particular type of cancerous tumor; he's getting his stitches removed tonight.

The vet said that the type of tumor we removed was a kind that she wouldn't worry about in the future because they typically regress on their own, and in the future she wouldn't find it necessary to remove them unless they got worse instead of getting better.

Patrick, I often lean closer to your opinions than to momof4's, but my goodness, you're being petty and arrogant and not furthering your argument at all. I feel like I'm watching a playground snot battle, and you are certainly being the snottiest. Do you ever change your mind about anything when you get new information? Ever?

And yes, I know, you surely couldn't care less about my opinion or what anyone else thinks of yours - but in which case, why comment on the blog?

In regards to the topic at hand, while I have never pursued homeopathy, I've learned a lot both from the video and from many of the comments here. Previously I didn't realize that homeopathy was only water - I thought homeopathy was synonymous with natural remedies. Now I know better.

The problem is it very easy to be fooled into buying homeopathic remedies. There is a product called Technu which is effective at preventing poison ivy/rash. (It is more effective than soap at removing the urushiol from your skin.) It was developed by a chemist at Oregon State University and was shown to work via double blind testing. The last time I went to buy it, I saw Technu Extreme. I assumed “Extreme” would be stronger but it was actually homeopathic garbage.

After checking the Tec Labs web site, I discovered that the chemist died and has been replaced by his son who has a marketing degree. The company is now about half medicine and half crap. Because, I am very allergic to poison oak, I continue to buy the real Technu despite my intense hatred for charlatans. I feel bad every I buy it.

hmmm, i think some of you are not really too familiar with chinese medicine. True chinese medicine uses chi and herbs for most cures, that crap about animals are more superstition than anything and have no basis in true chinese medicine. If you have never experienced a true chinese doctor who has the ability to concentrate energy to your specific needs, then please stfu. And patrick, go back to bad and try rising only after sufficient sleep

Sorry I will not Shut the FUCK UP! Ronny C just with one word you made a big mistake. And that word is .....TRUE... Please explain to me what is TRUE Chinese medicine how do you say what is true ... Is their a governing body, is 8th century AD traditions better then 8th century BC traditions. Is their a set rules and books.... What do you mean by TRUE. Me I belong to the TRUE church can you guess which one? I voted for the TRUE candidate. I am a TRUE believer.... Yet her is the amazing thing about Modern Medicine it does not need to be TRUE it just works or doesn't work. It has proof behind it, that is always changing. Using the word TRUE implies stagnation because if you have TRUE you have no CHANGE. Me I like my medicine to adapt and improve.

Is your Chinese medicine more TRUE because it comes from a 3rd Generation Chinese American who speaks with a Californian accent in his nice little shop in a strip mall better then the 35 year old Korean who went to an Oriental Medicine University versus the little old lady in some back province of China who makes it up do to tradition or belief.

Also by your arrogance, yes your arrogance you also dismiss a culture and beliefs older then the US. So in your mind you see Chinese Medicine about Chi and Herbs, but where I am in Korea which practices its own forms of bastardized Chinese Medicine has its forms and beliefs and traditions including CHI and herbs who do believe like eating dogs helps with erections, have been around for hundreds of years in not thousands is wrong and is not in tune with the your California/USA version of Chinese Medicine. The Gall!

Ron please tell me to STFU when you have been next to a cage filled with small kittens and cats that have less meat then a bucket of KFC chicken sure as hell they will not be eaten for meat food but will end up as a tonic drink. Or see the look of a bear that is locked in a cage and has a tube sticking out of its gall bladder for bile. So somebody can improve their eye site rather then get a nice pair or reading glasses. The dogs, the cats, tigers and bears are sorry, part of dark side of Chinese Medicine, you can not brush it aside or ignore it because it ruins your rosy image of the world. Tough Shit welcome to reality,

sorry johnnie, what you are experiencing is supersition and not medicine, and if you dont like it the get the hell out of the third world. I have experienced some miraculous shit from an amazing person who practices chinese medicine. What you have seen is ignorant superstition. Huge difference

sorry johnnie, what you are experiencing is supersition and not medicine, and if you dont like it the get the hell out of the third world. I have experienced some miraculous shit from an amazing person who practices chinese medicine. What you have seen is ignorant superstition. Huge difference

Ronc you did not explain what is TRUE.

Also by dismissing what I have said with the word superstition you have basically dismissed Chinese Medicine which is based up superstition and other various beliefs. Using wikipedia Chinese Medicine is described as Traditional and superstitions are part of tradition.

You ronc are a true believer you pretty much can not be convinced of any error or problem. True believers are so annoying because of that. Your like catholic parishioner who keeps ignoring all the little boys with bleeding asses coming out of Priests office just because you really like him because he gives such great sermons and all the boys seem to like him.

Also we should ignore and toss out modern medicine, other peoples experiences good and bad with Chinese Medicine, dead animals rotting in the sun and JUST believe because you have a had a few great experiences from one person who did something with their Chi. Wow talk about egotistical and selfish.

Yep I am convinced now. Chinese Medicine works because ronc says so. Oops what is that called anecdotal evidence.

Also sorry Korea is not a third world country any more - backwards in some ways but not third world. You cultural imperialist/racist. But I digress.

For those that think it's awful that parents should be allowed to use homeopathy on their children if they're so inclined.

"But, but, but...SCIENTIFIC STUDIES SHOW WHAT WORKS!!! AND I'M RIGHT!!!!" you might stomp and snarl indignantly.

Let me remind you all of something...your religion has no scientific support, none. And like homeopathy, you can scientifically prove that religion does cause harm. And don't even think about pointing the fingers at some other religion (like Islam) and saying, "Oh, not Christianity!"

Some murdered abortion doctors and people who might find themselves out of work because their clinic got blown up might disagree with you.

And Amy has posted videos on this blog in the past about how much harm religion does.

"Oh, by I would never blow up a clinic...but my denomination would never support murdering doctors..."

There are scads of Muslims who insist that they wouldn't have supported the 9/11 attacks, too...but I've seen how much credit you give their denials. Why should anyone assume that you wouldn't support attacks on abortionists because you say so?

You don't give Muslims the benefit of the doubt. Why should it be extended to you?

And don't bore me with your insistence that (your) religion does so much good in the world. Your church hasn't done, can't do and never will be able to do a lick of good that secular organizations can't and haven't done.

So, you can insist all you want to that no one should be allowed to practice homeopathy on their children because it's harmful and has no scientific support. The exact same thing could be said about your religion, so until you're willing to outlaw Sunday School and arrest people who speak about religious beliefs to their children, you're a hypocrite. Plain and simple.

(And Amy, that is how you bat cleanup.)

@JosephineMO7- You can still get infant allergy medication, but it's the store brand instead of the name brand. I don't know the Benadryl case you've mentioned, but most recalls of infant meds a year or two ago were caused by poor manufacturing practices in certain factories. So, you can't get infant Zyrtec, but you can get the store brand.(Our pediatrician recommended generic children's Zyrtec, 2.5mL, for our then-11-month-old.) You can't buy infant Tylenol or Motrin or Advil, but you can find CVS Ibuprofen or Target Acetominophin.

I've skipped over the last portion of the debate you've all got going on, but did want to point out that those Hylands "Homeopathic" Infant Teething tabs have been recalled. Long before the recall, one of my friends pointed out that Belldonna (one of the listed ingredients) is something that people take to hallucinate.
http://www.hylands.com/news/hylands-teething-recall.php

Patrick, that's ridiculous. You're comparing the actions that some adults have CHOSEN to take after being exposed to some religions to the injuries inflicted or neglected on children who have no choice.

Religion, like TV or books or any other free speech protected by the first amendment, may well give people bad ideas. But religion doesn't injure anybody. Giving a sick child "memory water" instead of penicillin does.

Look, if people do want to believe in homeopathy, they can. But it should be clearly marked on things like Zicam and there shouldn't be fraudulent claims made.

If you know dosing, you can give a kid any med, even the adult one, as long as you can break the pill or it's liquid, to get the right dose.

Patrick, when I think you can't get assier, you do. If you see no difference in harm to not treating a medically ill child, and in kids reciting the Lords Prayer or the Torah and listening to bible studies in sunday school, you are so fucking imbicilic as to be beneath suicide bombers. I think you actually aren't, though, you just feel some perverse Swiftian need to try to make a point via absurdity.

Now, if you want to equate taking your daughter somewhere to have her clit whacked off with homeopathy, go right ahead. Those do both cause physical harm to kids.

"Your church hasn't done, can't do and never will be able to do a lick of good that secular organizations can't and haven't done."

Much as I may hate to rise to this bait....name a secular non-government entity that runs thousands of not-for-profit hospitals. Just one. Come on, you say they can and have, so ante up buddy.

Momof4, I am not your buddy and never will be. Capice?

And to answer your dumbass question, all of Western Europe and every other industrialized nation, except this one, has socialized medicine.

That was too easy. Were you being sarcastic? That's the only explanation I can think of for such an overwhelmingly stupid question.

As for religion, including Christianity, harming children, this is what you call "child abuse."

Any parent who sends his kids to Jesus camp should be arrested and their kids placed in foster care.

And even what you might consider relatively innocuous indoctrination still suspends the child's ability to think critically...and if you're any indication, it also teaches children to be self-righteous bigots who regard themselves as superior to others who are supposedly "unsaved."

By the way, I totally loved your suggestion that I am worse than jihadic terrorists. You just told me, all too well, that you know you just got slaughtered. That over-the-top, borderline insane and insulting (to those who actually had loved ones die in 9/11) comparison to terrorists tells me all too well that you lost the debate, you know it and all you have left is murderous hatred for the person who exposed you for the hypocrite you are.

"St Johns wort is prescribed for depression in other countries not here."

That's because it doesn't work.

"But at the heart of the subject of homeopathy is the fallout of confidence with modern medicine. "

I understand that, but the science of medicine and the practice of medicine is not quite the same thing. It's a bit like saying that the entire history of the automobile is a useless scam because one mechanic can't fix your car. Admittedly, the medical profession has oversold itself; TV shows make doctors out to be omnipotent gods, and real life just can't measure up. There's two questions that I want to ask here: (1) was this psychiatrist the first doctor you saw about this problem, and (2) was their therapy involved, or were you going for a drugs-only treatment? Depression is seldom treated effectively without therapy.

Whoa there Patrick, Momof4 didnt say you were worse rthe suicde bombers, just that yo were dumber.

Now being dumb as you are I can see how you might get the two ideas confused.

This is why we have dictonaries.

"And the evidence for this is" - Why don't you try asking some people who have actually used it especially after months and years of allopathic meds did them no good and they just gave this a shot and it worked for them? Surely, a few million people can't be wrong and something that has existed for more than 300 years and has recognized courses even in industrialized countries like Germany(where Homeopathy originated) has some credibiility

luj,the accusation of stupidity might ring more true from someone who could actually spell common words, such as "suicide," "you," and "dictionaries." To say nothing for M4's trouble with the word "imbecilic," and her artificial standard of excluding the government from secular organizations that have done as much good in this world as any religion.

Screeching hissy fits on the part of Momof4, JennyHadAChance, and the token moron luj, notwithstanding, my point stands.

If you denounce homeopathy because it is harmful and doesn't have scientific support, our own religions would have to be outlawed for the exact same reason.

Religion has proven it causes harm on a grand scale. It is responsible for numerous wars, acts of genocide and oppression. Relgion has killed far more than homeopathy ever could.

But of course, the sanctimonious holier-than-thous on this board will piously insist that their religion doesn't cause harm. Even if that were true (and it's not -- Jenny, don't even try it with your precious Catholic Church, which historically is among the bloodiest institutions in existence), I don't think we can expect the government to go through each denomination of Christianity, and decide which ones are harmful and which ones aren't and outlaw just the harmful ones.

It was never intended to antagonize you. A person with intelligence (which would exclude you three) would realize that my comparison of homeopathy to religion is a warning. It seems to me that you need better thought out arguments than "it causes harm," and "no scientific backing."

Because the exact same things could be easily proven about religion. Giving the government license to outlaw homeopathy based on those criteria and you will have those who are opposed to religion arguing the same thing. And yes, people who do want to outlaw religion do exist. And they make valid arguments, which sound conspicuously like yours against homeopathy.

So, go ahead. Continue your tirades against homeopathy and imagine that "harmfulness" and "no scientific backing" are sufficient to get the damnable practice outlawed. Just don't be too surprised when a bulldozer goes through your place of worship, its legal sanction having come about for the exact same reasons.

And I will remind you all that I'm a Christian...and one who will contest my knowledge of scripture of yours any time you care to...Just because I see the inherent flaws in your piss-poor adolescent arguments and recognize they can be used against you, doesn't mean I support homeopathy or oppose religion.

I am warning you that your reasoning is weak, sophomoric and childish and for this reason will backfire on you.

Thank you... Radrajesh ... Thank You very much for that. More ammunition to Ahh lets do a tally.

So far the proponents of Homeopathy and Chinese Medicine and other quackery have done the following

1. Anecdotal Evidence - I experience and seen some amazing miracle or it changed the taste of food for ME ,so it must work. Sorry gimmie aspirin any day of the week versus some floral tincture that cured your cousins ex girlfriends neighbors husbands headache. Sorry millions beat one any day of the week.

2. The duck that won the lottery... What does that mean is a guy buys a Chinese Cremic Duck and later he wins a million dollars in a lottery. So because he bought the duck he won the lottery. We see unattributable or unproven effects granted to some potion or magic plate or duck. Basically my dog had some tumor and it disappeared and it is because of the home remedy I gave it. Could it not have been the dog just got better or the amazing power of Purina Puppy Chow but nope it is the home remedy. Or I had a lump in my breast and because I waved some crystal around and ate off an purple aluminum plate I am healed. Once again could it have been something else, lump was not cancerous, you have a good immune system, your microwave zapped it out but nope it is the plate.

3. Give the old conspiracy theories of the medical system and modern medical doctors are all in cohoots to keep people sick to line their pockets but that would not explain why doctors and their family also get sick and die of cancer or some disease too. If I was part of some conspiracy and it was stopping me from curing myself I would fuck the group and show the world and cure myself in the process.

4. Said systems are different and follow different laws of reality. Because homeopathy works differently from normal medicine you can not overdose on it like James Randi keeps trying to do. Klaatu Barada Nikto So if it does not work it is because you did it wrong or you did you not believe or Virgo was in asendence, blah blah blah.

Probably more examples above but I do not want to make this message tooooo long but number 5

5. Try to assign a veneer of respectability to the practice. Redrajesh you comment how old and institutions that support homeopathy is. You know the early history of Homeopathy is interesting, some guy takes a theory and tries to prove it. Works with what he can, later as he and other people are proven to be wrong rather then adapt or changing they get stubborn and double down. SO we have something that starts up scientific theory and practice ater turns into an almost religion as it adherents would rather not accept change and proof to it ineffectualness. What is the saying stupidity doing the same thing again and again expecting different results.

Going on Redrajesh you try to once again give Homeopathy its due and credentials by quoting its age and some organizations that gives it some credence. But in the end these two things still have shit all to do with how well it works or does not work. I can take a pedophile and dress him up in a nice suit and make him a member of NAMBLA, heck I can have him a movie star or a politician still does not make a him a better person he is still a fucking freak who likes to bugger little boys.

Another example
Let's take another theory of science that is almost as old as Homeopathy if not older - Phrenology. Basically I look, I feel, I measure your head and I can deduce what kind of person you are. Too much of a thing head your are a criminal, too small and beady eyes you must be a retard. So why is it that this science is regard as trash and pseudoscience - heck racist in some ways. Because the rest of the world looked at it tried to work with and found it so wanting it was dropped. Still I can find some group or even some University that will support me and I can make a visit on some documentary channel and have some movie stars to support it but still it would not mean it is correct. Better methods and sciences came along that made Phrenology useless and a joke - psychology, psychiatry, biochemistry, etc. Same with homeopathy better things came along and proved more efficient why not let homeopathy just die and fade away, but people make it into some belief that an not be questioned.

Keep them coming.

"Let me remind you all of something...your religion has no scientific support, none. And like homeopathy, you can scientifically prove that religion does cause harm. And don't even think about pointing the fingers at some other religion (like Islam) and saying, "Oh, not Christianity!""

Interesting that you assume that people are religious...

But, but, but, the spelling

Screw you Patty, complaints about spelling are the last act of a desperate man.

Water with .00000000000000000000000000000000001% of anything isnt going to cure a thing except for dry mouth, and even then its only a temporary cure.

I was wondering when they where going to pick lujlp for his spelling. A hint to people new here - lujlp has some problems with spelling - dyslexia or something, so find something else to pick on like the the actual facts.

Love the quip lujlp!

John Paulson: so find something else to pick on like the the actual facts.

I did pick up on the actual facts. And the actual facts are this: lacking scientific basis and proof that it causes harm might serve you to debunk homeopathy. Unfortunately, it can also serve to debunk religion: it causes harm and has no scientific basis. That would include yours, too.

On the subject of picking up on actual facts, is part of luj's developmental disability (if it exists) a propensity to erect straw men?

I ask because the remainder of his post -- which curiously seems to be vastly improved grammatically, making your "dyslexia" claim all the more dubious -- seems to be arguing against homeopathy. Perhaps you can show me where I argued for the validity of homeopathy? As I often say, you can't because I didn't.

And luj, once your tantrum has abated, some free advice. If you're going to call people "dumb," I would suggest that your own posts not read like they were written by a semi-literate with massive head injuries. There's a saying about glass houses that applies to you, Hissy-fit Boy. And I'm not talking about just your grammar. I'm talking about your inability to respond what was actually written. Trying reading the posts instead of reading into them or pretending your opposition has a position that they never claimed.

Crella: Interesting that you assume that people are religious...

Since the bulk of my exchanges in this thread are with Momof4, it's no "assumption" that she's religious. She positively drips it.

Furthermore, one doesn't have to be religious to support the right of people to worship as they see fit.

Again, I am saying that the arguments against homeopathy and its insistence that it be outlawed will also serve to outlaw religion. Anyone's.

Get it, yet?

Let me spell it out for you...

Argument: "Homeopathy has no scientific basis and it's been proven to cause harm."

Counter: "You could say the same thing about religion..."

Counter to this? Sorry, haven't heard one yet. All I've heard are hysterical comparisons to suicide bombers, and other personal attacks from thin-skins who can't seem to take what they dish out.

Patrick I really have not been paying attention to your momof4, luljp and others squabbles. It think it started with something about parents and letting them control childrens health versus state getting control and so on. Then it turned into some sort of weird he said, you said, I said, and so on sort of a mess. Really I do not care much. I am having more fun with the TRUE believers like Vix and Redjeresh, and ronc.

My only thing is I have been around the Amy message areas to notice the with luljp his writing is sometimes off. He constantly misspells (as do I at times too) words and it does not bother me. I just hate grammar Nazis. So if luljp is being picky shame on spelling and grammar, Then shame on him. But I understand his foible.

I do agree that in debunking homeopathy you can also use it to debunk religion, as I noticed in my rants and ditribes. Even thru I am a little religious myself, yep I am a believer but not a stuck in one mode TRUE believer.

Still Good Luck to all. (pushing up my sleeves) NEXT!

"Trying reading the posts instead of reading into them or pretending your opposition has a position that they never claimed."

You might try that yourself.

"And of course, a child with a supposedly treatable illness has never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever died under medical care.

Never, never, never, never, never, never...when an illness is supposedly curable, 100% of the time everyone's cured when they get the right treatment."

@John Paulson - "Same with homeopathy better things came along and proved more efficient why not let homeopathy just die and fade away, but people make it into some belief that an not be questioned." You know what, most of the people who use/practice homeopathy or acupuncture do not go around with billboards and blog posts and tv appearances saying that normal medicine does not work or that it is harmful. In fact, the opposite is true. These people take pains to explain that it might work reasonably well, but ymmv. And people willingly try it out despite all these warnings because they have probably spent a lot on conventional medicine and it has not worked for an extended period of time and hence they approach it with an attitude of "what the heck, even if it does not work, it is only a few dollars and considering the hundreds that I have already spent in a futile manner on conventional treatments, I have nothing to lose". And sometimes, it just works for such people and they become converts to the system and stop debasing it.

Homeopathy is pretty much surviving on word of mouth without debasing other forms of medicine and itself being under assault from other forms of medicine and hence, if it is still holding up, it is probably because it has some merit to it and probably because people find that it works despite so called scientific evidence and scientific studies. If it were actually bad, then it would not be surviving even now, especially in the face of complete lack of support and subsidies from big govt. and would have died a natural death by now(just like a lot of crappy things in this world would go out of existence without tax money).

If it were actually a religion that should not be questioned as per your claim, then the only scope for survival of this religion is money from taxpayers just like NOW which survives purely because of tax money and actually has nothing productive to do. But given the fact that there is absolutely no tax money flowing into homeopathy and that it has survived on its own and in some cases even got elite supporters, it just makes the whole thing seem quite credible.

Sniff Sniff, that is so sad Redrajesh. It almost brought me to tears. Poor poor homeopathy it lives such a horrible life all alone in the world with few or no people to support it, the bastard child of medicine that people scorn and spit upon. With only a few pennies to it name and cause...Lost in the wilderness is poor poor Homeopathy....

It is such a shame but you now what ... so what! so fucking what!... take the poor bastard homeopathy out back and and put a bullet in its head.. put it out its and our misery. Let's end the suffering....

YOUR WORDS
....."But given the fact that there is absolutely no tax money flowing into homeopathy and that it has survived on its own "......

One of your latter points first (above)... Umm Sorry Homeopathy is supported by tax dollars, the health system in England does provide money and that for people who use it and to a degree business dollars in area like pharmaceuticals and insurance also support and prop up Homeopathy. True both the private and public maybe not to pumping billions or hundreds of millions into it they are still pumping millions of money into a hole that is Homeopathy. The first the public I consider a waste of taxpayers money spent it something better or not at all. The latter with pharmaceutical what ever I do not care unless they do not try to sell me something without informing me. With insurance No big no, I do no want the money I add to a pot to be wasted on something that to me does not work, I would rather have the insurance company waste the money helping out somebody with something that works, maybe forgive a slight late pay...

YOUR WORDS
...."saying that normal medicine does not work or that it is harmful. In fact, the opposite is true. These people take pains to explain that it might work reasonably well, but ymmv(?)".....

Next point, yes there are people who are not very rabid about it and use it conjunction with modern western medicine. True maybe a majority have no real fight or belief or stake into homeopathy they just use it because they may not know better (we like above the AMAZING RANDI are trying to inform those poor people), but there are others who do both and we have word for those people HYPOCRITES. I mean does it not drive you bonkers that you hear that some say they believe in GOD really real much and the HE/SHE created the Earth and the Heavens but they also believe in Darwinism and Dinosaurs. Sometimes you just can not have both. OR it is like a husband cheats in his wife and his wife accepts it but she then cheats and he raises a big stink uhhuh. True those two examples are maybe bigger hypocrisies (real word?) but still they are illogical and unfair just like people who say one thing and then do another.

The next point that is really really crappy on your front is the measure of degrees. It is only a few bucks or it is only a as something else little to try. An example Can "Johnson and Johnson" the company sell a bottle of pills called AspArin for 1 dollar (just like Aspirin but not Aspirin) but all it is sugar pills (which they tell nobody about) now for most people they try it to get rid of some minor pain and it does not work BUT for some people it works. Now because it is only just one dollar and it worked for some people that means it is all right to do it. Some people where helped, nobody died, no one really got hurt, it's only a matter of degrees. That sort of thinking is ethically lacking and shallow. Sorry a theft of a few dollars is still theft (Once I think about all my MP3s I am in an ethical quandry). Now true many people do make the choice to take the water but putting their belief and future and health into something that does not WORK (unless you count the placebo effect) in my opinion is silly. But no matter if it is a small homeopath or a big company it is still a criminal behavior.

YOUR WORDS
...Homeopathy is pretty much surviving on word of mouth without debasing other forms of medicine and itself being under assault from other forms of medicine and hence, if it is still holding up...

Uhm do you not remember Vix, she debased Modern Medicine as being a vast community of shysters. Others use the old adage/excuse that modern medicine and science does not know everything - TRUE but that is an excuse and an insult to medicine, which is so fucking ironic because SCIENCE AND MODERN MEDICINE KNOWS REPEAT KNOWS THAT THAT HOMEOPATHY DOES NOT WORK! Yea science may have some problems with quantum physics and genetics but it has the grip on homeopathy. Yet Science and Medicine are both big boys they can handle the those big mean words themselves.... Actions are better then words and Medicine with science has proven it self time and time again.

As to Science and Modern Medicine being mean to Homeopathy and attacking it .... SO FUCKING WHAT ... welcome to the real world .... it deserves it and needs it.... Everything and anything should be question and if it it can not support itself and dies under attack so the better, the sooner we might get rid of such research into curing GAY people or the waste of time into researching creationism.... Global warming here I come....

YOUR WORDS....
..."And sometimes, it just works for such people and they become converts to the system and stop debasing it".....

Yes SOMETIMES.... Sometimes, how many times, 1 percent, 1 out of a million people, hey could it have been something else like the placebo effect or just plain old time.... Me I do not accept that "sometimes" which is so bloody low in homeopathy... Here is the think that is amazing about Modern Medicine it does not try for sometimes it tries for ALL THE TIME. Yes modern medicine is a sometimes bet too, but sure is a whole lotta more sometimes then Homeopathy. Also ..."converts to a system".., when I get something from a pill to a burger I do not want to have to subscribe to a belief or faith, I want the pill to cure me and burger to fill me up ... NOT to maybe work...

YOUR WORDS....
....If it were actually a religion that should not be questioned as per your claim, then the only scope for survival of this religion is money from taxpayers...

Little confused by the above but I think you mean that this religion/system/belief needs to be tax payer supported - NO it does not. If something can not work for it self (AG STERNS, FORD talking to you here) should let it self die and disappear. I want my tax dollars to actually go to something that is needed or works. Even something that works still to a time does not need my tax money. I know breast implants work and look great but I still do not want my money to support some plastic surgeons and silicone producers if times get tough in breast augmentation business.

Thanks thru for the debate....

Friend of mine asked me to pick up some teething medication for their baby one day on the way over. Went into the store, couldn't find it, asked for it. "We don't have any in stock," said the lady, "but we do have this, it's just as good", pointing to a homeopathic product :/ ... ummm OK, I wanted to say, "But the placebo effect isn't going to work on a baby!" ... but I decided to be polite, left empty-handed, and informed my friends they were out of stock.

"And sometimes, it just works for such people and they become converts to the system and stop debasing it"

Homeopathy 'works' only because of something called "the placebo effect". The placebo effect does exist, sure. Nobody denies that. But homeopathy 'works' in the same way that the placebo effect 'works'. But you can save yourself some money and get the same effect with sugar pills, or maybe a nice warm bowl of chicken soup and some TLC or self-TLC.

While it can psychologically ease symptoms, it doesn't cure any actual diseases though, sorry.

Here's a great video about homeopathy:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMGIbOGu8q0
The homeopathic emergency room. For all you true believers!

"This guy makes a good point, but I couldn't help imagining him jumping off a chuck wagon, doing a few barrel roll dance moves, and serving me some beans over a campfire"

Lol .. that's James Randi, well-known skeptic and once a well-known magician, I presume hence the big beardy image. He's a friend of a friend of mine. That seems to be a recent video, gosh, I'm surprised how good he's looking; he was actually very sick recently, and had to have surgery and chemo. Good thing he relied on real modern western medicine and not quackery or he'd very literally be dead now.

"Brian, I've seen homeopathy cure a tumor in an animal. A tumor is pretty obvious. But again, it could have been coincidence, I don't know."

NicoleK: After reading your comment, I Googled 'spontaneous remission of tumors in canines' and quickly found that indeed, tumors in dogs can clear up all on their own with no medication at all:

http://www.ehow.com/about_6662688_spontaneous-remission-cancer-dogs.html

"It has been seen in less then 2 percent of cases"

In other words this suggests that a rate between 1 in 50, and 1 in 100. Which is actually pretty good odds, i.e. it wouldn't require a particularly astronomical coincidence at all, in fact, such 1 in 100 coincidences, if you look at how many dogs we have, are probably happening every single day. If you happened to be giving your dog homeopathic remedies and the cancer spontaneously remitted, you might well be inclined to believe it was the homeopathic remedy.

That is why we have the scientific method. There are objective mechanisms built into the scientific method to help weed out problems like this, e.g. double-blind, peer review, isolation of variables, control groups etc.

Isolation of variables is another factor. E.g. did the dog you see ONLY get homeopathic remedies, or other 'normal' medicine at or around the same time, which may have then contributed partly to the remission. For example if they first tried normal medicine (as most would), and then 'gave up and tried homeopathy instead' when it seemed to not be working, it's possible the normal medicine weakened the cancer and thus increased the likelihood of a later "spontaneous" remission.

Oh I see you said "animal", not necessarily "dog". No matter, same principles apply; in fact that makes an even larger base group and hence greater number of coincidences occurring daily.

Patrick, what part of non-government entity did you not read, fucking idiot? Of course governments can and have made hospitals. They've also done more harm (almost every war in history) than religion. So nice try. I swear you get dumber by the day, BUDDY.

If you can't attack the facts, attack the typos. That's pretty standard lib operating procedure. I said, as luj pointed out, you were DUMBER than the people who believe they're getting 72 virgins. Not worse-obviously as they actually kill people, they're worse than those who merely think parents should have the right to kill their kids.

Are you off some meds or something? Because while we almost always disagree, you're not generally fucking stupid.

Momof4: Patrick, what part of non-government entity did you not read, fucking idiot?

Oh, I read it perfectly, but since my claim was only for the secular world doing as much good -- if not more -- than any religious organization, and never specified "non-government," I simply decided that I wasn't going to let you change the parameters of my argument...fucking idiot. :)

(If you had paid more attention, you'd have what I said in a previous post, "...and her artificial standard of excluding the government from secular organizations that have done as much good in this world as any religion."

By the way, I'm enjoying this meltdown of yours. It's confirming that you simply don't have a leg to stand on, and you know it. Your weak arguments against homeopathy could make an equally convincing argument against religion. So, you would need better standards. But by all means, should this ever come up in the national dialogue, use all the personal attacks and insulting comparisons to 9/11 terrorists. I'm sure your opposition will be very impressed.

Momof4: I said, as luj pointed out, you were DUMBER than the people who believe they're getting 72 virgins.

Invoking 9/11 terrorists in a discussion about homeopathy, for any reason, was pretty damned stupid. You remind me of Pat Robertson.

Just like what Nazi Germany did to the Jews, so liberal America is now doing to the evangelical Christians. It's no different. It is the same thing. It is happening all over again. It is the Democratic Congress, the liberal-based media and the homosexuals who want to destroy the Christians. Wholesale abuse and discrimination and the worst bigotry directed toward any group in America today. More terrible than anything suffered by any minority in history.

Yeah, the evangelical Christians are getting it so much worse than the Jews in Nazi Germany.

When reason fails, resort to hysteria.

And sorry that bothers you, but if someone is going to tell me I'm dumb, but does so with a post that the average eight-year-old could have made more comprehensible, I'm going to relish the irony.

"Yoo sher ar stoopid."

Momof4: Because while we almost always disagree, you're not generally fucking stupid.

Thanks. Wish I could say the same for you.

Lobster, as I said above, there are types of tumors that regress on their own. A hystiocytoma is an example of a tumor that will.

Johnnie, I do not share your love affair for koreans, I generally think the younger generations are ingrates, and I can no longer fathom why we spend a dime on their defense. That being said, any society that consumes dogs to me is still third world. And mom of 4, sorry, but look back at world history and by far religion has caused far more war than any secular government.

And mom of 4, sorry, but look back at world history and by far religion has caused far more war than any secular government.

A lie.

Collectivist political systems have killed more people than any other human creation.

The socialist Soviet Union is responsible for nearly 70 million dead. Communist China another 40 million.

No religion even comes close.

brian, it was quoted as the number of wars, not people killed. In history, Christianity leads all comers when it comes to the number of wars. No doubt, the 20th centuries political struggles killed more people simply because their were indeed more to kill. And some would argue that communism is indeed a religion as it considers all others as obsolete. And Naziism was the ultimate theism. I must complement miss amy, this blog indeed went viral

Brian's right, no other form of human organization can even remotely approach governments (secular or otherwise) when it comes to death counts, you "looking back at history" proves this over and over. Also even when religions were involved, it was often by, from and with government backing or leading, e.g. of the First Crusade: "In March 1095 at the Council of Piacenza, ambassadors sent by Byzantine Emperor Alexius I called for help with defending his empire against the Seljuk Turks. Later that year, at the Council of Clermont, Pope Urban II called upon all Christians to join a war against the Turks" ... in other words, government was behind it, and religion was merely the tool used to manipulate people into signing up for the army.

"Lobster, as I said above, there are types of tumors that regress on their own. A hystiocytoma is an example of a tumor that will."

Thanks Angie, yes, sorry, I didn't really have time to read the entire thread, it's quite a long one.

brian, it was quoted as the number of wars, not people killed.

And it's still wrong. Stop trying to indict religion for something it didn't do so you can justify your irrational belief in woo.

And given that both Communism and National Socialism both explicitly denied God, they are by definition NOT religions.

Unless you want to get into the whole "atheism is a religion" argument, which I don't. Especially not with a marginal thinker.

Brian: Especially not with a marginal thinker.

Which would be a step up for a non-thinker, like yourself and Lobster.

Brian, lose the chip on your shoulder. You repeat your little dance routine with every discussion you get into. You get all nasty, trying to sound tough and authoritative, then someone who knows more than you (which would be about everyone) comes along and puts you in your place and you go sulk and nurse your perpetually wounded feelings, proving (ad nauseum) that you cannot take what you dish out.

There's something so repulsive about someone who wants to go full-bore asshole in a message board discussion, but then gets all teary-eyed it's reciprocated.

In sum, you aren't fooling anyone, Brian.

You would be better served approaching these discussions as someone interested in learning something, rather than as an arrogant walking pustule who knows everything.

Lobster is irredeemable. He's shown that when he's proven wrong, he simply goes quiet, waiting for his embarrassment to pass.

On the subject of marginal thinking, his last post was worth a few good chucks. He seems to think that religion and government are, and always have been, separate entities and that religion should be held blameless for any involvement in wars which were initiated by the government. His idiotic classification of the Crusades is laugh-out-loud hilarious.

Contrary to what he seems to be pushing, the Crusades can be quite fairly blamed on both government and religion.

Patty, Patty, Patyy - you want to go toe to toe we can, lets recap shall we?

Momof4 called you dumber than suicide bombers

You(Patrick) protested her calling you worse then suicde bombers

Using situational humor I highlighted the fact that you(Patrick), being unable to understand the difference between the words 'worse' and 'dumb' were indeed behaving as stupidly as Momof4 suggested you(Patrick) were

Your(Patrick) response was to criticize my spelling

John Paulson pointed out I have already said many times I have dyslexia

You(Patrick) rresponed to John that my claims of dyslexia are dubious as my "grammer" mysteriously improved

Is everyone caught up?

Grammer is puctuation and sentance structure, it has nothing to do with spelling.

Once again you are seemingly incapable of understanding the difference between simple words which only makes Momof4's assesment of your intellegce more beleivable.

Again water with .000000000000000000000001% of anything wont cure a thing.

Also water with .00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001% of that smae substance is not stronger

"Lobster is irredeemable. He's shown that when he's proven wrong, he simply goes quiet, waiting for his embarrassment to pass"

Lol .. what on earth are you talking about now? I go quiet sometimes because I also have a business, a pregnant wife, and various other activities outside this blog, and so don't read it every day. If you can point out somewhere where you proved to me to be wrong and I "went quiet", by all means do so; I don't recall that it's ever happened, and I usually admit when I'm genuinely proven wrong (based on evidence, truth, and reason). What I may do though, is decide not to waste too much of my scarce time on people who deliberately ignore facts, or make up things.

"He seems to think that religion and government are, and always have been, separate entities and that religion should be held blameless for any involvement in wars which were initiated by the government"

See, here's an example, not only isn't this what I said at all, anywhere, but most of it is precisely the opposite of what I said. It is purely made up, and an outrageous lie. "Blameless"? Please, please, please point out where I said religion was "blameless", please do, I promise I will write you a check for $1000 if you can show me where I claimed such a completely absurd thing. (I have never for one moment of my life considered religion "completely blameless" for the Crusades, so good luck on that! Why would I write something I've never, ever believed?)

In those days, government and religion were intertwined.

Honestly, "debating" with people whose idea of putting forward debate constitutes "making up something completely false and entirely out of thin air", is not my idea of interesting intellectual discussion.

If you want to debate meaningfully based on what I *actually* say, please, I am always up for it. But if all you can do is debate completely made-up claims I didn't say and don't even agree with which you falsely attribute to me, that is just an absurd waste of my time, and I may indeed 'go silent'.

The thing I find most amazing about your "arguments", Patrick, is that since all of this is recorded in writing on the forum, anyone can simply read and see that you're talking absolute nonsense, and that you are making things up out of thin air and falsely attributing them to me --- and yet you do it anyway. Hello, this isn't a spoken conversation where we all rely on memory of who said what!

That "classification" which you falsely attribute to me comes from Wikipedia, incidentally, which admittedly is not the most scientific of sources, though I'd be surprised if it was egregiously incorrect on such a topic, but I'm pretty sure the trend will be clear everywhere --- where there is war, there is basically always politics and government mixed in.

"Contrary to what he seems to be pushing, the Crusades can be quite fairly blamed on both government and religion."

Um, that is *exactly* what I was saying, I agree with that assessment completely, which should be pretty clear. I've re-read my comment, and it states at least twice, redundantly, in multiple ways, that 'both government and religion' were to blame. Did you even read my comment? Read again. How could you possibly miss that?

Actually, never mind: I think you're just trolling.

@lujlp, it's just become obvious to me that Patrick's just trolling.

Wow.

Just. Wow.

Patrick is the one hurling the personal insults, but I'm the nasty one?

Projection. It's not a river in Egypt.

You would be better served approaching these discussions as someone interested in learning something, rather than as an arrogant walking pustule who knows everything.

You ignominious twit. I've forgotten more than you'll ever know. You are the most thin-skinned whiny bitch I have ever encountered in all of my travels. You take the entirety of existence as a personal affront, and whenever your precious worldview is challenged out come the knives. You have hurled more invective and personal insult in this thread than a 4chan bash-fest.

All in defense of the indefensible.

Care to say a few words on behalf of Kermit Gosnell next?

Brian: "You ignominious twit. I've forgotten more than you'll ever know."

Hmmm...a dittohead who thinks he's well-informed. but isn't...where have I heard this before?

Oh, yes. Kathleen Hall Jamieson once did a study on a group of Americans who watched the healthcare debate. The group was asked how informed they felt on this issue. Rush Limbaugh listeners considered themselves the best informed. However, when asked questions of objective fact regarding healthcare, Limbaugh listeners turned out to be the least informed.

Quelle surprise. Limbaugh listeners turned out to be the most ignorant and yet thought they were the least ignorant.

This phenomenon is called "pseudo certainty." I'm with Al Franken. I prefer to think of it as "being a fucking moron."

Like the dittoheads in that study, you are convinced you know what you're talking about, yet you don't. Suppose you explain to me what "indefensible" thing I've been "defending." You can even scroll up and look...think of it as an "open-book" test. And I guarantee you, you'll still get it wrong.

Lobster, child, don't you remember how hysterically you screamed at my suggestion that Amy was prescribing an all-meat diet? I pointed out to you...twice...with quotes from Amy's own posts that she does indeed advocate an all-meat diet as the induction phase of her high-protein, high-fat, low carb eating plan.

And while you continued to post, despite my attempts to bring this to your attention, ghostly silence. You were busted making a pompous, self-righteous ass of yourself, proven wrong, but refused to acknowledge it.

Poor child. Nothing to do but just slink away with your tail between your legs and wait for the embarrassment to pass.

@Amy and John Paulson: Assuming that homeopathy and acupuncture do not work, what is your problem if people willingly spend their money on it? People also willingly spend money on cigarettes and booze and marijuana despite knowing the ill effects. The people who are spending money on homeopathy or acupuncture are pretty much doing it willingly whether they are gullible or not. So why do you want the govt. to step in and ban it? And if this should be banned, then why not bring back prohibition?
No one is forcing you to use homeopathy you know.

And while you do feel that it has worked for 1%(for whom conventional medicine probably did not work), why should that 1% be denied the choice of using homeopathy or acupuncture? If it works for them or they are happy with it, why do you want to stop it just because you don't want to use it? Homeopathy or acupuncture does not result in people spending ever increasing amounts of money on it like some kind of addiction. Basically, you are advocating the formation of a nanny state.

If you are so concerned about the two year old girl being given homeopathic pills, then just make a regulation stating that people have to be over 18 to use homeopathy(just like you have for tobacco and alcohol) and your problem is solved.

Redrajesh (deep breath in)I agree people should have the free choice to be do what ever smart or foolish thing they want to do to their body as long as it does not hurt me or anyone else. But here is the thing we should support, the education of people about what we smoke, drink or pop into our mouth. I smoke cigars and drink whiskey but in doing so I have the knowledge given to me by parents, TV, government,etc that what I am doing does have consequences. Still my choice. Me and others that partake of these vices understand the NEGATIVE consequences of using said things But the same needs to be done with Homeopathy and Acupuncture that it does NOT work or the science and theory behind it is wonky. But that is the problem is the info about Homeopathy is not always told truthfully or at all. It is one area where many people have no knowledge of what it is and is sold and told that it is great wonderful and it can help you but with with not the caveat of NOT LIKELY AT ALL.

Red's WORDS
...So why do you want the govt. to step in and ban it? And if this should be banned, then why not bring back prohibition? ....

Nope once again I do not want to ban it. Heck I support Koreans rights to eat dog, or you to take water for you sleep problem, for a hippy to smoke pot and eat granola. I want to inform people about what is going on and to me that what they may do is not all right. Alternative health and other pseudoscience products and services needs to be held to the same standard as booze companies, electronic companies, and restaurants. They can not get away with selling or touting something without people being told about it. As to if this is done by government or by a private body I would err on the side of liberty.

The more I think about would it not be awesome to have a nice big sticker or warning label on HOMEOPATHIC products like - THIS PRODUCTS CONTAINS NO ACTUAL "ACTIVE" INGREDIENTS JUST LIKELY WATER. A nice advert for some flower homeopathic drink that it actually contains NO ACTIVE FLOWER INGREDIENTS maybe just the memory of the flowers.

Red's WORDS
....Homeopathy or acupuncture does not result in people spending ever increasing amounts of money on it like some kind of addiction. ....

YES a little not like Heroin or booze. But NO still.

The thing with Homeopathy is that it is a zero sum action. People may not spend ever increasing amount they are just spending money on something that is useless. At least with a lottery ticket I have the infinitesimal chance of winning. With Homeopathy it is just a waste of money from the start.

Also their are some people that do waste their money on it almost akin to a drug or an addiction. Their are many people who suffer from one or another or a multitude of ailments and problems. Homeopathy and Acupuncture are sold and told as a way to solve those problems. Someone may get relief but many may not and try again and again with the belief that it will work or it sort of works continue, ad nauseoum . Which continues to spin into a further cycle. "Well this did not work well lets try this formula or product or give it more time". Many alternative health people (even normal doctors too, to a degree) like to UPSELL or keep the customer coming back I bet I could find some alternative health addicts. I can also people who have suffered with some problem who have spent increasing amounts of time and money on using said products or service to no avail of their suffering. Heck at least with a addict they get a reprieve maybe if only for a little while.

Red's WORDS
...Basically, you are advocating the formation of a nanny state....

Nope not at all. I will not stop you from doing it I am just saying that it does not FUCKING WORK. It is WATER! The science is pure fantasy and silly. I am trying to educate people and trying to prevent people from being cheated or scammed from their money. Like the above guy who almost wasted his money on a oinment for his feet that used to work but changed to something that would not work if he had not been a little more careful he would have been scammed. As other people are scammed when the buy some Homeopathic sleep pills without understanding the science behind it.

I do not think a nanny state is needed but busybodies are needed to pester people and society to out problems and to try and fix them. True some busybodies do go overboard and do become part of the nanny state. Still I thank the Cancer Society that informs me with a horrifying commerical that smoking is not good for me. Or that old adjumma pokes at my belly and says I am fat and maybe I should do something. And Amy that likes to point out that people can be nicer and more polite and to stop being so RUDE. Does she advocate getting rid of all cell phones. No she is busybody who with tels loud people to be a little bit quite and to be aware they are being assholes.

Go ahead and smoke that joint but me I will hold you to a bit more derision and may ask you do you know what you are doing and try and convince this person to change their lives. Go ahead take you pill that works but I am going to think you a fool and try to help you to try something else.

MORE LATER!

'he was actually very sick recently, and had to have surgery and chemo'

I know he had bypass surgery in 2006, but hadn't heard about chemo. He's in his early 80s I think and still going strong. His site is an interesting read.

Holy cow! What happened to this thread???

Folks, ALL social groups, when they reach a certain size, commit atrocities, be they secular or religious. Bigger groups can commit bigger horrors.

Back to homeopathy.

I'll continue to use it, in addition to regular medicine, because I've had good luck with it. I fully concede that my results may have been due to coincidence or placebo effects. I'm also willing to try prayer, magic(k), hypnosis, you name it. Particularly if it is covered by my insurance, or free.

I agree it shouldn't be used instead of traditional medicine. But there are times when traditional medicine can't do anything anyways, so in those cases, why not?

I'd also like to say, that if my anecdotes are being discounted on the basis that they are anecdotes, then anecdotes like "some guy went to Mexico and didn't get cured" also have to be discounted.

I'd ALSO like to say that, "Some guy took a bottle of homeopathic sleeping pills and didn't die so that proves it doesn't work" is like saying "I took some aspirin and didn't stop getting my period so aspirin doesn't work". Something not doing something it doesn't claim to do isn't proof of anything.

wow, the combined IQ of the posters here cannot be more than 68

Damn ronc you just insulted yourself!

Little busy more later.

In Response:

It frightens me that so many believe so blindly- in doctors, drugs, big pharma, politicians, etc.

I imagine you feel the same way about people who believe in vitamins, natural remedies like homeopathy, organic food, etc. I frequently remind myself how boring the world would be if we were all the same.

It is a fact that most doctors benefit financially when they have patients. Evidence proves that Doctors push very expensive treatment with a 5% success rate over a "homeopathic/natural" treatment with a 98% success rate tells me they are financially interested in having their patients stay sick.

I do also believe that there are some caring doctors out there. I am a firm believer in the practices of Dr. Max Gerson, who found a cure for cancer that worked much better and more frequently than other cancer treatments such as chemo/radiation.

Chinese medicine and Mayan medicine has been around for thousands of years. Such longevity could not exist without success.

It's common for simple minds to be unable to grasp complex theories. As much as I wish I were smart enough to do so, I can't wrap my head around the thoughts and theories of Stephen Hawking. But I have the awareness of possibility and acceptance of things I do not understand.

It's true, naturopaths, homeopaths, chiropractors, etc., are also financially motivated (hey, we agree on something!) It's their livelihood as much as it is the livelihood for the traditionally educated medical doctors.

When I have a a stiff neck, it takes more than a few visits to my chiropractor before the pain is eliminated. For me, it's still less expensive than a traditional doctor and the associated prescriptions. I'm not a fan of drug side effects, and as I said before, natural treatments have worked for me, even if it's only in my head. When I was getting long term chiropractic treatment, I definitely felt better, weighed less, retained less water, had more energy, lower blood sugar, fewer migraines, and lower blood pressure. To me, that's hard evidence, not in my head.

It's also common for my medical doctor (a very caring one of course,) to try one thing after another to find what works best. So it looks like we are in agreement on something else too. Health care practitioners, whether natural or traditional, believe ongoing treatment is recommended.

Sure, narcotic pills "work", but narcotics are not for everyone. Could you imagine if everyone was on drugs? We'd all get paranoid and irritable after a while and crime would be even more rampant than it is now.

Regarding the lump in my breast, it went away after two weeks of drinking water that sat on the purple plate, so I never had the biopsy. I do not care if anyone calls that a scam, because I'm the one that is cancer free today. I'm the one that didn't have to go through chemo and radiation, or die and leave my children motherless.

Yes, daughter, like many, is very fanciful and spirited. But why "vibrating?" She wasn't able to read at that time, and I had not read up on the purple plates then, so I had no idea that many users can feel a vibration from them. We didn't know anyone else who used them or would have mentioned it. Is it "magical?" No, I believe it's scientific, as did the inventor, Nicola Tesla.

Yes, I do listen to ALL my child says. I think parents should listen and talk to their children. It's possible that caring about my children enough to listen to their fancies has something to do with the fact that they are are well rounded, mature individuals that have never been involved in drugs, gangs, or trouble.

I don't buy your "placebo" experience. Someone without prior knowledge cannot have a placebo experience. My guest had no reason to suspect that I would do or had done something to his drink. He drank the same flavor of gatorade every day.

I've actually done the purple plate experiment on dozens of people over the last few years. With juice, the difference is not always remarked upon, but with coffee and water, I'm always asked about it. I wouldn't say I've done it a hundred times, but several dozen at least. Yes, I could recite many of the stories, but they are virtually the same as the first, and it's not important for me to convince anyone else. I merely enjoy being cancer free and sharing what has worked for me. "Dozens" is not that many, but so many people have had positive results, that millions of homeopathic practitioners manage to make a living at it.

Isn't cannibalism illegal? I don't think I've heard of anyone who was cured from cancer or any other disease from by cannibalism, but I can name one person for certain that has remained cancer free while using natural treatments (me.) There are books (I'm thinking of the one by Max Gerson again) that publish results of scientific studies proving that natural treatments can be effective against cancer and other diseases.

I do not think that animals function in the same way as plants, or water, but if cannibalism is legal wherever you are, have at it and I wont judge you. I only expect the same respect for my beliefs in return.

Even though I personally disagree with cannibalism, it is well known that putting cells of one person into another can cure or even cause disease. Bone marrow transplants and blood transfusions come to mind. I'm sure there are others. I think the murder and eating of MENSA members might be a bad idea, because in the end, the only humans left would be the simple minded ones. Don't we need those smart people to discover cures?

There is a lot of propaganda that dairy or soy is poison, prescription medication is bad for you, homeopathy is a scam, etc. There is not just one right way for everyone.

I say harm no one, but go with what works for you.

Because I love my children and love talking about them, I will share a little bit of where my insight came from. Of my three children, it is the one who is an extremely religious Christian who felt the energy of the purple plate. Religious people don't usually believe in "magical" things. I also have one child who is agnostic that believes as you do, that natural/homeopathic treatment/organic food, etc, is all a scam. The one in the middle is the atheist that is very big on following the recommendations in her horoscope. I raised them to discover their beliefs from within, and their significant differences have taught me a great deal.

PS- A positive outlook is truly magical. :)

TO: Amy Aklon, et al.
RE: Heh

Here's a CLASSIC example of how JREF is as much—in my honestly held opinion—a fraud as he claims homeopathy is.

Downing a whole vial of 'sleeping pills'? What materia medic a was it? What were the symptoms he was experiencing?

No data. Eh?

I can down a whole bottle of something and not go to sleep either.

And this goes FAR in explaining WHY JREF has not responded to my query from 11 May 2011.

Thanks for the additional information. I'll keep it in mind for the future.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[There is none so blind as they who WILL NOT see....]

TO: All
RE: My 'Challenge'

I offer to any who give me a mailing address and their promise of an honest report, a vial of cantharis, to be used to treat common bad burns.

On the condition that they provide me with an honest report as to whether or not they reliaiae relief from the pain of such an accident upon proper use of the homeopathic materia medica.

Contact me at cbpelto@pcisys.net.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[The truth will out....one way or another....]

P.S. About 'little girls' and homeopathy....

....when my youngest daughter came off breast feeding onto 'forumla', at something over six months, we woke up to horrific screaming coming from her bedroom/nursery. Something to do with the new environment in her little tummy and the new bacteria attempting to manifest their dominance of her gastro-intestinal system causing considerable distress.

My ex-wife, the 'witch' who introduced me to homeopathy, went to her 'books' and after reading a bit, she got one of her vials of 'witches brew'. She shook out several sugar-pills of 'totally ineffectual material'.

We tried to give it to our poor, distressed baby. But she didn't want ANYTHING in her mouth that might add to her distress.

We FINALLY got the sugar pills into her mouth.

Five minutes later we had our happy baby girl back again.

And they tell US that babies don't believe in placebos.....

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[God made the Earth and everything therein for Mankind. Our problem has been trying to figure out how to use it all....properly.]

We FINALLY got the sugar pills into her mouth.
Five minutes later we had our happy baby girl back again.

I wonder if anybody's ever looked into the concept of giving kids sugar to distract them from unpleasant feelings...

My daughter was screaming her lungs out after getting a set of shots. The nurse took a pacifier, spritzed it with a sugar syrup, popped the pacifier in my daughter's mouth, and 5 seconds later, we had our happy baby girl back again.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

Maybe, doctors offices should give hard, crystalized sugar to kids! I bet there's a huge untapped market there!