Well, demanding he ask is a bit ridiculous. I've been to a few hen's nights (mostly run into them at the same club accidentally) and I have female friends that come to strip clubs with me. But that's all fun and games. If the inviter doesn't want women, then fine. If were told it was a girls only night, I would back off real fast.

She must be the type that wants to check up on her man all the time in case he misbehaves. Who knows who he might fuck on a guys' night out? My guess is she doesn't trust him.

I suspect her mindset is one of the following:

1. She's consumed with entitlement mentality and isn't used to be told "No".

2. She's one of those people who believes in "equal everything" all of the time. She believes that partners should always do everything together and never be apart except at work.

I don't particulary want DH around when I'm hanging with my friends. So what?

I suppose scheduling a ladies' only night out at the same night would be out of the question.

Amy doesn't seem to think a lack of trust is involved, which would have been my first guess. I wonder how long they've been married. I suspect, ruling out the trust issue, that she's a clingy wife who thinks that apart from their separate spheres of employment, they have to do each and every thing together.

A better question to ask herself is if she's the only wife that's complaining about this. If she is, and I suspect that she is, maybe she needs to examine the possibility that she's the one with the issue here. Not her husband, and not the guy who had the "temerity" to ask for a Guys' Only Night Out for his own birthday.

I don't mind DH coming along most of the time. But I do have "girls only" nights, and he has "guys only" nights.
As someone who is generally "one of the guys," (I drink beer, and laugh without getting offended at the dirty jokes) I still know that sometimes, they just prefer to be with actual guys.
So I'd have to agree, if it isn't trust that's the issue, then she simply feels entitled to be included.

I'm flabbergasted. I'm not sure she understands that people in a relationship/marriage can do things without their mate and that it isn't a threat to the relationship. Doing things apart can help one appreciated things together. Men should have some breathing space to relate to others without their wife involved (and vice versa). Other than that, perhaps she's just one of those people who cannot entertain themselves but must always glom on to others.

I've never understood people who believe the word "married" means "joined at the hip".

Of course, because in modern marriage, there is never such a thing as "girls night out" or gatherings where only women are invited. *rolls eyes*

I wonder if women such as this ever stop to think how they would react if it were their husband acting like them.

I make pains not to hurt my wifes feelings and to be caring and loving. But, that said. I'm a man and will do as I will. If she's unhappy with that the door is that way. There's always another great woman just around the bend. More so as I get older. Oddly enough, that turns her on. Alpha's rule, betas school and I do as I (within reason) damn well please.

I'm not really sure why she has a problem with her husband over this scenario. He's not the one who decided that she isn't welcome at this particular event. Furthermore, the criteria for why she isn't invited doesn't appear to be personal (i.e. the birthday boy doesn't want his wife there because he finds her annoying or something).

If she has a problem with not being invited she should take it up with the guy throwing the party, her husband doesn't get to select who is invited and who isn't.

Assuming that she isn't really good enough friends with the guy having the birthday to approach him with such a question, that might go a long way toward explaining why she wasn't invited in the first place.

I suspect that just because she thinks she is "seen as one of the guys" that the guys don't actually view it that way and feel like they have to censor their conversations when she is around.

So, when this husband DOES get to go out on his own, she prefers if he is hanging with ladies and/or guys?

Oh wait, he doesn't get to go out alone at all, that's it.

sorry, I meant and/instead of (not and/or)

"and says she, unlike the other wives, who only have wifely-type interest, is seen as one of the guys. "

Answer right here: she seeks male attention. Probably bc she's intimidated by the other wives.

Men, always suspect women that have more male friends than female.

seems like a control issue, not so much a trust issue... lots of women think they are like 'one of the guys' but that's not actually fact, it's just what they want to see. Friendly groups are often indulgent in this behavior because it doesn't matter much. Until it does. If she makes a pain in the butt out of herself often enough, her husband will stop getting invited to things. That is what she wants, so she can control what he does.

It is astounding that she feels this is a problem. If one of her friends wanted to go 'girls night out' what would she say if her hubby wanted to come?

That's the simple math in such situations. good for the goose/good for the gander. Sadly there are a LOT of people out there who are so deeply controlling that they never allow such things. Which leaves their significant other with the 'my way or the highway' choice.

I'm gonna go out on a limb, and guess that this woman wouldn't see any problem if the wives all got together and had a girls night out.

Now, I might make an exception for her if she showed an understanding of Man Law, but if she did, she'd understand that what she needs to say is go have a good time with your buddies, dear.

Well his friends probably couldn't say "Dude, don't bring your ride"

"I'm guessing the guys don't want her there, and used the excuse of the guy's birthday to have an explicit no-girls-allowed night."

Yeah, jeez, I mean we all love our SO's but it doesn't mean we want them to be there clinging to us 100% of the time, watching our every move. Part of a healthy relationship is knowing to give the other person enough space. If my wife goes out with her girl friends I'm frankly happy for the chance to just enjoy some quiet me time and catch up some work, it doesn't mean I don't love her just the same.

"He also doesn't understand why I am upset. Is he wrong for going anyway (and apparently not caring)?"

No, he's not wrong. You are wrong for being so demanding and bossy and for trying to ruin his night out by harassing him. You don't own him, he's not a slave. It doesn't mean he doesn't care, he probably just wants some space. The fact that he's still with such a bossy shrew means he still cares, but if you really want him to stop caring, keep nagging away.

She maybe like the SO of the guys I used to work with. The group was primary formed by guys who worked at that one company in the tech side. She felt she was one of the guys and was for the most part. She had no problems with guys hanging out at the local bar after work - just guys - sometimes even quite late. She would join us occasionally. She didn't really care... unless it was a special event. Then she felt entitled to come...even to one guys bachelor party.

"She seems to feel utterly entitled to participate."

I suspect so too. After all, that's the culture she has been raised in. Consider: There's a large and very successful franchise chain of women-only gyms (Curves). But a men-only gym is illegal. One of the tenants of feminism is that men do not have the right of free association; men must never be allowed to exclude women from any event or gathering, public or private. Women have been raised to believe that they are entitled to admission, anywhere they want to go.

Right on, Cousin Dave!

Woman: Hey, men! Yes, you! We have our own club, and we don't want you in it! Go away!

Other woman: Who are you yelling at? There's nobody there.

Have any women weighed in on this yet? I can't tell from the screen names, and I'm curious if any of the ladies are in the guy's corner. In any case, her husband's friends may genuinely think of her as "one of the guys" when she joins them. But at the end of the day she's still one of the wives. Assuming there isn't a trust issue (a whole separate problem in itself), I think the occasional spouse-free outing is healthy. It doesn't mean it's a personal rejection of anyone. You just need a breather once in a while.

JonnyT - I am a girl, and I am in the guy's corner. But clearly momof4 and Alice Bachini-Smith are women, and jazzhands also seems to be a woman based on her comments. So, not really fair to say you can't tell.

@Lobster: "You don't own him, he's not a slave." Yes, and this seems to be a 'thing' now - bringing your significant other to lunch with a friend or any damn event uninvited as though he is a slave or an accessory. What is that about?

The thing is, from my perspective, guys do dumb stuff on guy's nights out that I wouldn't even want to be a part of - and girls, from my husband's perspective, do boring stuff that he would in no way wish to do. I do not want to get drunk and climb a barb wire fence or run over my friend with a golf cart (sober, this one, sadly), or for that matter go to a comic book convention for a weekend. My husband does not want to watch a chick flick or have brunch and talk about ex-boyfriends for two hours. Or ... have beers and talk about current boyfriends or husbands for two hours... I like hearing his stories. They are funny! He likes hearing the 10 minute summary of what all our friends are up to, but glad he didn't sit through the extended version. What is there to talk about anyhow if you do everything together? And how resentful will you be? Bad enough to have to sit through some of the family functions..

Huh. I've posted before about going deer hunting. My family does have a designated "deer camp" week. Before kids, we would all go up and hang out co-ed. The guys liked it because we wives would handle the domestic chore side of things. I even enjoyed the hunting myself. But once the kids came along, we wives would let the guys go up for 4-5 days without us and the kids, let them have some "guy time".

I want a little breathing space at times, it's not hard to imagine that he might want some also. Then again, I'm not neurotic about it. Other things, yes, but not this.

I'm a girl too, and admittedly, I have trust issues from having been married to man I couldn't trust, who would've used a night like this to act inappropriately with other women.

So, with that being fully disclosed, my first thought was that it was kind of unusual. I mean, yes, women get together without guys all the time, and that's not "equal", but we women like to get together a yak with each other. Men don't tend to have male only get togethers just for birthdays. Bachelor parties, yes. The occassional "we stopped by the strip club" on the way home kinda thing. But to PLAN a male only birthday party seems a bit strange to me.

Maybe it's just the suspicious side of me, but I'd wonder what they plan to do. If they're just hanging at a bar shooting pool or gathering at one guy's house for drinks and...gay sex (just kidding!), then it's probably fine, and she shouldn't be so upset.

The main question for me, since this is a married friend, would be is the other wife ok with it? If so, then there's probably nothing going on that should concern her.

She may say it's not a trust issue, but it sounds that way to me. Sometimes, women use other excuses so as not to reveal their insecurities or doubts.

I will add that women tend to get together and talk and gossip for hours over drinks. As Kathryn says, our gatherings are usually boring, at least to anybody but us. But guy get togethers can turn a lot more sexual, given the nature of guys, which is to be more sexual.

I trust the man I'm with and he sometimes goes out with his buddies, which I have no problem with because he's honest with me. But the last time they went to a strip club (which none of the other wives or gfs knew about), he ended up dragging one of his married buddies out of the back, where he'd paid for "private dance" which was about to turn into a lot more than dancing.

His wife would never dream he'd do anything like that. She thinks he's the most faithful guy in the world. So, it's also knowing ugly secrets like that about what can really go on that makes me a bit more suspicious here.

Agree with lovelysoul: A woman shouldn't intrude on guys' night out, but this is a weird setup for a birthday party. The /complete/ lack of explanation could create an unnecessary trust issue for me.

Amy doesn't think there is a trust issue, though.

Maybe this woman is worried that the sausage-only rule was made to pointedly exclude her. Maybe she wants assurance that that isn't the case.

When a girl is "one of the guys," that's a conditional status, like Y is only a vowel sometimes. You can't expect to always be included in Man activities, especially if they'd then have to include all the wives/girlfriends.

she sometimes comes and says she, unlike the other wives, who only have wifely-type interest, is seen as one of the guys. (I'm guessing the guys don't want her there, and used the excuse of the guy's birthday to have an explicit no-girls-allowed night.)

It might be nothing to do with her then as such. Maybe the other guys don't want their wives there, so they can't invite her because of that. And maybe her husband is a bit awkward about that and having trouble talking to her. Perhaps the other guys have no problem with her but asked him to stop bringing her because it was causing problems with their wives?

She might feel slighted because she gets along well with them and feels missed out.

That might explain her sense of entitlement - if they've treated her as 'one of the guys' before, she might feel a bit betrayed by people she thought were her friends?

Just looking for the most charitable explanation here.

Cousin Dave: But a men-only gym is illegal.

That statement sounded suspect, so I checked it out.

Not true. Although reading that article, I see that gym is severely overpriced, even if you do get a personal trainer with every workout.

I'll have to finish my comments on another post, since I don't want to be drop-kicked into the spam folder.

My search for "Men's-only" gyms (that weren't gay clubs, that is)led me to this outstanding example of hypocrisy at its finest.Curves members protesting the opening of a Men's only gym.

So apparently, like Cousin Dave suggests, women are allowed anywhere, but a men's-only facility is chauvinistic.

Of course, this type of double standard exists everywhere. A women's college or a black college is a "unique educational opportunity" while a men's college or (oh, boy...) a white college would be sexist or racist.

Colorado Springs.

Sorry... Deep Springs, not Colorado Springs.

There are actually a bunch of men's colleges. There are no all-white colleges, but its my understanding that there aren't all-black ones either, just "historically black" colleges. I could be wrong on that, but I'm pretty sure that's illegal.

Heh, when I was getting my master's some of the black students suggested I go to Howard for my PhD, I'd get lots of money because they were looking for more diversity.

This reminds me of the kerfluffle a few years ago about a men's golf club. Some woman decided that she just had to be admitted, and made national news, until she embarrassed the club into accepting her.

Why can't men decide they want to have a men's only club? Why can't women do the same? This is called "freedom of association"! Who I choose to associate with in my free time is my choice, and no one else's. Certainly the government has no business regulating this.

Most guys need "guy" time, most girls need "girl" time. What's hard to understand about that? Why do some people insist on being insulted, when they aren't included?

Of course, it's completely normal for guys to need guy time, but what I find strange about this is that it's a planned birthday party, which specifically excludes all women.

Unless it involves a sports event, bachelor party, or hunting trip, most guy gatherings seem to be more spontaneous, less planned, and they don't need to state "No women allowed" because it's rather obvious.

For instance, my guy might call in the afternoon and say, "It's Mike's birthday, so me and some of the guys are gonna take him out for a few beers after work."

Now, that's my cue that this is a guy's only gathering, and it wouldn't be cool for me to say, "Great, I'll join you!"

I'm not specifically excluded, but I don't even want to be there if I'd be the only girl. However if LW has long been the only girl to hang out with this particular group of guys, and they suddenly and inexplicably exclude her from this birthday celebration, I can understand why she's miffed.

Guys are rarely specifically excluded from our events. I've seen guys show up briefly at baby showers, and ladies nights, and the women are usually happy that their husbands or boyfriends dropped by (because we know you don't really want to be there either). There's never anything in the invite that says, "NO MEN!" It's just that the nature of the gathering tends to discourage male attendance.

Which brings me to the other thing that is weird. This is a birthday, and birthday's are typically more family-oriented celebrations. Sure, the guy may get together with his buddies for a few drinks, but normally, afterwards, he'd go home to his wife expecting (as we all learned in a recent thread) his "birthday sex".

So, if he's excluding his wife from this celebration, who is going to give him "birthday sex"? :0

Oh, is it a weekly thing? Then, I'd guess you're right. Maybe her husband feels he really can't really let go and yuk it up with the guys with her around, so he's asked them to do this.

I'd say if you're the only wife or girlfriend to show up to a weekly guy's gathering, you should take a hint that they don't really want you there.

I'm totally with the husband on this one. One of the guys or no, men will tend to self-censor more when a female is around. I get along great with the guys, but also now know when to bow out. This sounds like one of those times.

Patrick,

You need to read the bottom of that article. It is satire, none of it really happened.

She seems really entitled and dense. And his friends probably think she's annoying as hell.

The only time I insisted I be allowed during a "guys' night" was when it involved watching a UFC fight which didn't start until 11 PM and it was at our house while I was feeling a bit run-down. My friends were all busy and I had no where to really go...

I said hi to all his friends and hung out for about 15 minutes then went upstairs where I watched t.v and drank wine until everyone left at 1:30. I did ask him if he'd mind that I'd be around at all b/c if he wanted a totally female-free zone I would have gone to my mom's for the night. Luckily he isn't a douche and neither am I.

I wouldn't want him at dinner with all my friends. It's good to have time on your own and miss each other.

If you don't want to be an annoying, entitled, clingy, glomming-on'ish, socially maladjusted jerk, don't try to force yourself into situations where you are not invited. That is all. Respect other people's boundaries. If you're not invited, you don't go. This is a matter of basic manners.

The mens's group at church meets at 6:30 in the morning on Thursdays. We don't have to worry about women crashing the group because most of them are still asleep. The church secretary is not even there. Last Thursday our female assistant pastor just showed up as we were leaving.

I agree with Amy. I think she thinks she's one of the guys, and they accept her because she shows up and doesn't want to cause an unnecessary scene. This event was just an excuse to shed her from the group. Even if it's understandable why she's miffed, it's equally understandable that her husband doesn't want her around all the time. If she's the only woman there, she doesn't seem to have gotten the message that the men sometimes just want men-only time.

I have no problems with my husband getting men-only time. I think we all need that, even if it's for them to all stare at the television in the same vicinity of each other, not speaking.

Sorry - awful grammar.

Why would the wife even want to be present at an event knowing she's not wanted there?

Meloni, I would wonder the same thing. But I have encountered one or two of these sociopaths in my lifestime, and the answer is: DENY, DENY, DENY. These uninvited clingers simply pretend they are everyone else's favorite person and show up to anything they find out about, whether they are wanted or not.

I was sure she was insecure, but since Amy doesn't seem to think that's it, then I'd say it's likely she just thinks she should be everywhere and anywhere her husband is. If she keeps that up, she's going to find herself with a LOT of alone time, starting the day he moves out.

Well, it does seem like her feelings are hurt because she was hanging out with them, thinking she was "one of the guys" and now, she's probably caught on that they're trying to ditch her. Her own husband too, which would be painful. He could've communicated with her better about his need for space without bringing the other guys into it. I think she's probably humiliated by being shut out of the birthday, even more so because she realizes her husband is behind it and all the other guys know.

"JonnyT - I am a girl, and I am in the guy's corner. But clearly momof4 and Alice Bachini-Smith are women, and jazzhands also seems to be a woman based on her comments. So, not really fair to say you can't tell."

@Kathryn--Sorry about that. I was skimming the page and honestly didn't catch Alice's name. I promise I didn't intend it to be sarcastic.

@JonnyT -- No problem :)

He does it because he only thinks about the short term solutions.