In this economy, permanent vacation is easy to come by. Money, not so much.

re: MarkD

But you don't see the nitwit's point. If you want a permanent vacation, the government should pay for it, along with the lifestyle you've become accustomed to.

You see, the government money is the cure to all ills, perceived or otherwise. Don't think too hard about where government will get that money, after all, they need to confiscate more money from the EVIL corporations and 'millionaires'.

When I travel I often see these 'required vacation' people @ the hotels. They travel in huge groups and are whisked around like cattle to corny events. They whine about not being able to do anything they choose on a given day... I would imagine it is extra cash they are short on. They do these all inclusive deals with 30 odd co-workers and don't go out to enjoy the local flavor. Just the hotel's 3 meals a day for them. They also never tip. So locals are more than happy to make sure I'm enjoying myself rather than them. All in all, I don't think they are enjoying themselves nearly as much as me. Oh, the benefits of liberty!

While mandated vacations may be an unnecessary luxury, I do think that more sick days are a good idea. If you give employees 10 total days a year for vacation and sick leave, people will come to work sick and get me sick. Especially in December, when everyone has used up all their days. This damages productivity.

I used to work for a company based in the Netherlands. We got 5 WEEKS off every year (for vacation and sick). Days could not be rolled over -- it was use-it-or-lose it. If someone came to work sick, they were regarded as selfish and caught endless shit for it until they went the eff home. The idea was, "This company gives you five weeks off a year, and you & your germs can't just stay home one day?"

Where I am now, if someone comes in sick, they get pity. "Used up all your vacation days huh? Well good for you for keepin' on trucking."

Since I am self employed, would either Wiener or de Graaf care to pay for my vacation time? How about sick leave? I thought not. They have great plans that involve other's money.

While mandated vacations may be an unnecessary luxury, I do think that more sick days are a good idea.

Agreed. People need to keep their sick selves home, but they won't do that if they get a total of 10 days off a year.

My husband's office has a sensible policy. They don't have a vacation policy. They trust their employees to take off the time they need to be productive. No one has abused it so far. It's a competitive field, and no one wants to be the weak link. So people take time off when they need to.

This works particularly well in fields where there is no time clock. My husband is always at work: When he's home, he's thinking about work or researching something or answering email. There needs to be some flexibility in how we handle vacation time.

My husband's office has a sensible policy. They don't have a vacation policy. They trust their employees to take off the time they need to be productive. No one has abused it so far.

I think that's great. My friend's law firm does that, too. I also like it when companies give the option of working from home if you need to. Instead of burning a sick/vacation day, you can do the same work at home (skype into a meeting if necessary) and not spread the pinkeye you got from your kid.

The effect of mandated PTO would be to proportionally reduce salaries. Time off isn't free to the company; that cost is amortized over the year.

At work, our philosophy is that work-life balance is important, and we want everyone to take time off. PTO can't be accrued over 3 weeks; hit that limit and you need to take a day off or lose it. We also don't distinguish personal and sick days and vacation days. It's all one bucket to use as people see fit. I like this approach, as separating time off encourages dishonesty; someone who has been well all year might be inclined to fake an illness to be sure not to lose sick days.

"an advocacy group fighting for a law that would require employers to give workers a minimum number of paid vacation days"

had to read this twice to make sure I was reading this accurately.

Then I had to throw up.

Why not just start an advocacy grou fighting for a law that would require some people to give money to other people? Cut out the pretense.

We also don't distinguish personal and sick days and vacation days. It's all one bucket to use as people see fit. I like this approach, as separating time off encourages dishonesty; someone who has been well all year might be inclined to fake an illness to be sure not to lose sick days.

THIS is my biggest gripe about sick leave. I rarely get sick so every year I leave a ton of sick time on the books. I wish we had a PTO system, so that I could take a day off without having to lie about it. I literally have to plan a "sick" day so I don't leave anyone in a lurch. This year, I've been taking a sick day here and there to do things I want to do, like spend an extra day with my grandson.

No thank you, I will take vacation when I choose to and when I am able to. I DO NOT need the government AGAIN to tell me what to do with my life. FGS! What a horrible idea, mandate vacation time. I feel like I am literally in the twilight zone anymore. What are people thinking?? Are they thinking?

Sara, every now and again, when I'm really not sick, but maybe just sick and tired of whatever bs I've been dealing with, I'll tell my boss I need a "mental health day". He puts it down as a sick day. Works for us!

And once, I called in well. I told the boss "You know, I've been sick ever since I started working for you, but today I'm well, so I won't be in anymore!"

I found another job with a better atmosphere and much better pay. Obviously, this won't work too well in today's job market, but back then, it was the right thing to do.

"This works particularly well in fields where there is no time clock. My husband is always at work: When he's home, he's thinking about work or researching something or answering email."

Yes. For certain types of jobs, you have certain tasks to accomplish. Whether you take vacation or not, whether you are sick or not, the tasks have to get done. If they do, everybody's happy; if not, you get to work evenings and weekends.

Of course, not all jobs are like this. Some require presence - the phone has to be answered, the customers served. Jobs like this, vacation/sick days are a direct additional expense to the employer. Of course, if the employer is agreeable, you can always negotiate an 80% or 90% job, to get extra vacation.

Offtopic 1, Offtopic 2...

Offtopic 3, Offtopic 4.

(Reddit.) Day off. Langers for pastrami.

Here. Once in a lifetime LA indulgence, this is the day. If I have a heart attack on my drive home, my nephew gets the Zappa albums.

I work weekends, you lazy punks!

What drives me nuts about people who advocate the European system is that they don't see any of the negatives. In France for example, you get your 4 weeks off in summer but your employer can dictate when you take it, and it's either all of July, or all of August.

If you're childless and would rather do your summer vacation in June to miss the families-with-kids crowd, too bad. If you'd rather take a few weeks in October and a few others in May, too bad. If your spouse gets July and you get August, too bad.

The crowds on vacation in the south of France in July and Aug are unbelievable, as are the costs and the traffic jams. I'll take less time with more flexibility any day.

Clearly, CLEARLY, vacation days policy is the burning issue of the day for our government.

I never thought 'job with benefits' would be an antiquated phrase.

offtopic: Crid, you're two blocks down from the place I got my fake ID in college.

The socialists' argument always comes down to, wouldn't that be nice? wouldn't you like to have that,too? AS IF that were the only consideration.

It's to our credit that at least *some* of us can think beyond our own personal desires.

Two offtopic fivers.

Another offtopic.

Sometimes the amount of craftsmanship and good humor these people can pack into five offtopic seconds is breathtaking.

The guy who brought me my offtopic sandwich at Langer's this afternoon may have been an off-duty gang-banger; I don't read neck tattoos well enough to be certain. But...

I undoubtedly received better service than some offtopic hipsters on the other coast.

Back on topic—

> What drives me nuts about people who advocate
> the European system is that they don't see
> any of the negatives

Like abject reliance on an ocean-away superpower to handle their international security while they pursue "advanced" socialist daydreams.

I wish this roaring, thundering, blinding Continental smugness was talked about more often. These people didn't earn that peace with each other. The United States gave it to them. It had a very real cost, and not only to the United States.

We got 5 WEEKS off every year (for vacation and sick). Days could not be rolled over -- it was use-it-or-lose it.
Huh..I get 5 weeks at my job, with a cap at 2x a year (so 10 on the books max). And sick time is handled differently: it's more an honor system with a required Dr. note if you're out for more then 4 or 5 days (or whatever).

Since I do IT work, I usually work from home when not feeling well anyway.

Granted, the company starts you at 3 weeks/yr, then you bump to 4 at 5 years and 5 at 10 years.
There are private companies that do take pretty good care of their employees and don't need the gov't telling them every detail of how to do their job. Despite what far too many people out there seem to think.

I like the idea of mandated vacation time. Many employees lack the leverage to have enough time off.

When you say "lack the leverage", do you mean "haven't created the wealth to have earned it"?

Crid, I'm losing my shit picturing someone doing this to one of Amy's notes.

Government mandated vacation is the dumbest idea I've ever heard.

However, smart managers know that productivity is much improved with things like high loyalty and morale due to liberal vacation policies, etc. Not every industry is the same but, as a general rule, I think this applies. I'm sure there have been studies to back that up, I'm just too lazy to look them up.

This should remain an issue between managers and unions. Oh God. I mentioned unions. Here comes the deluge of "unions are destroying our country" arguments.

Unions would not ever have existed if there wasn't shitty management out there. Corporate leadership often makes decisions against their own best interest.

Unions were never necessary, as the commoditization of labor had already begun in Henry Ford's own factory.

The unions simply came along and created a protection racket to profit from doing nothing at all.

Crid, I'm losing my shit picturing someone doing this to one of Amy's notes

I'd like them if they did! The least you can do for fucking with our neighborhood is entertain us!

I will never hire a union employee. I will never employ for long an employee that tries to unionize.

I will bust my back to take care of my people, but I expect the same in return, I will pay the best, I will hire the best, I will fire the worst. If I get rich, as my standard of living rises, I find nothing objectionable about raising the standard of living for those who push me up too. When I stop rising, so too do they.

I like to keep things simple.

If someone is working for a company that offers 0 vacation days, chances are they're working a shit job anyway that could probably be replace human labor with birds or monkeys except for animal rights legislation.

Get a better job, you get better benefits.

Power offtopic tweet... Follow the link even though it's a paster.

Ok, you're right, it was probably 'shopped in an offtopic kind of way.

So now we move on to consider the offtopic polarities of gender fantasization as expressed in mundane grooming contexts: Here and here. Reflect on these patterns and report.

Fascinating technique for teasing out truth from uncomfortably offtopic people.

I'm pleased to work for myself, despite the government's best efforts to dissuade me. LA Makes it very hard, CA also and obviously the Feds wish I'd just get a job at the DMV.

Good old Eric is pleased to take a paycheck from NPR, so he's hardly any ball of fire.

http://www.ericweinerbooks.com/content/index.aspKI

We have six weeks as well, but we pay for it ourselves. Part of our salary is withheld and when we take our holydays, we get that money. Works pretty well. I still think six weeks is way too much, though.

Oh, I'm Danish, by the way. And you guys are way more broke than we are.

My husband's office has a sensible policy. They don't have a vacation policy. They trust their employees to take off the time they need to be productive. No one has abused it so far.

Interesting. I have a personal policy which is much the same - my direct permanent boss is interstate, I'm currently loaned out to four different projects at five different sites and offices. I also get a fair amount of irregular night and weekend work. So no one expects me to be in any particular place at any particular time. As long as I show up when I say I will and get things done roughly on time, no one asks inconvenient questions. I pretty much manage my own time.

It's not a official policy of course, because the large organisation I work for wouldn't accept that. But as long as there are no complaints my manager turns a blind eye - or alternatively comes down on me like a ton of bricks if I take advantage, which I have done from time to time.

And, yes, I'm often working in ostensibly out of work hours. Planning stuff, thinking about solutions, researching, email and phone calls. It suits me because I have a terrible sleep patterns but don't have any trouble task switching. And that feeling of always being at work just doesn't happen for me - I can get a call, drop into work mode, sort out the problem and relax again two seconds later.

I'm fascinated to hear it as an official policy though MonicaP - I assume they measure performance via KPIs etc to make it fair? Or is it a subjective judgement thing?

My husband doesn't really take vacations. I wish he would, because I worry about him burning out. He's a professor, which means that when he's not teaching is working on his research. He can structure his own time. In theory, he could take the whole summer off, but of course if he did that he wouldn't get anywhere. So he works the whole summer. We go to interesting places, where -I- get a vacation, but he works, works, works.

I think that's how it is in most of these flex-time, make your own hours type jobs like MonicaP describes. People work more, not less.

I think that's how it is in most of these flex-time, make your own hours type jobs like MonicaP describes. People work more, not less.

The issue is when you have a slacker on the team -- the way the labor laws are structured -- its virtually impossible to get rid of them. We had a co-slacker -- she'd show up, "clock-in", then go take a 25 minute breakfast break; do a little work, usually incompetently; then turn around and take all 45 minutes of her 30 minute lunch break; and so on. It took three years to fire her because she was a black women and threatened lawsuit.

When they finally did fire her, she actually did file a lawsuit. Luckily one of our co-workers was called in for a deposition. She blew the slackers case out of the water. But the slacker is still collecting unemployment. And her resume is greatly inflated.

Jim P, That sounds far more like issues with (or more likely fears of a lawsuit due to) the Civil rights laws then labor laws themselves. I bet they wouldn't have had nearly as much trouble getting rid of an identically performing individual had they been a white male, or at least just not a minority.

That sounds far more like issues with (or more likely fears of a lawsuit due to) the Civil rights laws then labor laws themselves.

I can't really disagree with that assessment, but the deleterious affects on the team that Monica described can be serious.