Commentland: Welcome To Human Nature
A commenter left this remark on the entry "Birth Fathers Getting Babies Adopted Out From Under Them In Utah":
I have come to realize that there is no more a false belief than- "women are sugar and spice and everything nice"
My response:
Well, how silly. Welcome to HUMAN nature.Every man also isn't all "snakes and snails and puppy dog's tails."
Then again, I know this, because I don't get my information about humanity from Mother Goose.
The truth is, a lot of people are jerks, and a lot of people are pretty awful. But, if you have a desire to see who somebody is -- who they really are -- except in the cases of some clever and talented sociopaths, you probably can.
The problem is, a lot of people go in with their eyes wide shut, and hope things turn out okay, and when they don't, the blame pointing finger goes everywhere but in their own direction. That's when words like "feminazi" or "all men are assholes come out," when the truth is, the asshole was the person who leapt into a relationship with their eyes shut.
Sugar and Spice Theory 101 predicts much of Feminist Theory.
jerry at August 24, 2011 8:36 AM
There is hardly new word so reflective of the true state of affairs, so expressive and so inconvenient as "feminazi".
Mere Mortal at August 24, 2011 8:55 AM
I care deeply about my boyfriend, and about making him happy and healthy, and spent eight years mostly alone before I found him.
It may not be easy to find a person of character, but if you make that a priority, you are unlikely to end up with a jerk. There is no one who has any dealing with my boyfriend Gregg who doesn't get the kind of person he is -- leading with integrity, even when it makes things hard for him, and completely loyal to Elmore and to me and to anyone he cares about. And this isn't just lip service. Last week, I had yet another occasion to see how behind me he is, and while people consider him a really good and a very even guy, just do some negative thing to somebody in his sphere, and he'll come out in a way that you really won't like. (A New York Times editor called him "apocalyptic and threatening" when they tried to change some of Elmore's wording to fit AP style.)
Amy Alkon at August 24, 2011 9:15 AM
I think the "Eyes wide shut" theory is only part of the problem. Few people are analytical enough to see into the future and predict when a minor character flaw (which we all have) is going to balloon into a major deal breaker or psychosis.
I will cut ordinary people less slack in this area, when I start seeing psychiatrists and psychologists get it right more than half the time.......
Isabel1130 at August 24, 2011 10:11 AM
That last comment just might be the best advice you have ever given.
MarkD at August 24, 2011 10:12 AM
My comment was in reply to Amy's comment. Character is critical.
MarkD at August 24, 2011 10:14 AM
Few people are analytical enough to see into the future and predict when a minor character flaw (which we all have) is going to balloon into a major deal breaker or psychosis.
The notion that "minor character flaws" balloon into major dealbreakers or...I love this...psychosis!...is just bullshit.
The way you look at a potential partner is not all cow-eyed, but very analytically. You figure out every flaw they have and whether you can live with them. It is not somebody's sense of humor or how good they are in bed that will break you up. Their lack of ambition, however, will perhaps -- or even likely -- become a problem.
Amy Alkon at August 24, 2011 10:27 AM
I agree, character IS critical. However, in my experience, in an absolutist form, less than 10% of the human race has it, in sufficient quantities to be worthy of my "unconditional" trust. The rest of the human race can only be trusted to consider my best interests when my interests are closely aligned with their own.
In a nutshell, this is why capitalism works and socialism doesn't.
Isabel1130 at August 24, 2011 10:37 AM
No one, is born an alcoholic, a drug addict, or a gambler. I have seen people who spiraled out of control in these areas and ruined their lives.
I have seen others who knew something was becoming a problem and quit cold turkey.
The only problem, is in advance, I would never be able to predict who would be able to do that and who wouldn't. Only in hind sight can you see those who saved themselves, which is a bit like knowing the lottery numbers, the day after the drawing, and exclaiming, "it was all so obvious"!!
Isabel1130 at August 24, 2011 10:47 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2011/08/24/commentland_wel.html#comment-2439292">comment from Isabel1130in my experience, in an absolutist form, less than 10% of the human race has it, in sufficient quantities to be worthy of my "unconditional" trust.
This is why it took me eight years of dating to find a man for me.
There were a lot of guys other women would have (and probably do think) are sufficient. I notice all the little things, like how the guy treats people when nobody is looking. Gregg used to call his mom everyday at 7pm when she was alive. He'd sometimes have to step out of a place we were or arrange to talk to her earlier if there was a scheduling conflict. I get letters from women from time to time complaining about a man doing that. It wasn't always convenient, but I thought it was absolutely fantastic. A man who calls his elderly mother every day is a man who will likely be kind to you and others as well.
Amy Alkon at August 24, 2011 11:07 AM
There seem to be an awful lot of people (me included) who got mal-educated about relationships when they were children. Maybe it will be better for the current and future generations because the Internet makes information more available, but I was taught nothing about sociopathy when I was growing up, and I had never heard of the Cluster B personality disorders until a few years ago. Once I did find out about them, I realized that my ex met nearly all of the diagnosis criteria for borderline personality disorder, and it answered some questions that had been bothering me for nearly 20 years.
Cousin Dave at August 24, 2011 6:55 PM
Cousin Dave, You bring up another very good point. There are two problems here that cause people especially when they are young to be unable to effectively screen for sociopathic behavior, personality disorders etc.
The first situation arises when you are raised in a dysfunctional family, you then believe that sociopathic behavior is normal. So when you meet and start a romantic relationship with someone who is dysfunctional, no alarm bells go off, because your definition of "normal" has been skewed by your upbringing.
The second problem happens when people like me, are raised in such a normal environment, (no drinking, no screaming, no beatings, no drama,) and we assume that this is pretty much what everyone's life is like and don't understand that there really are a lot of twisted people out there; these people don't see the world the way we do, or want the same things, and they never will. In short, you can't fix them.
If you are really lucky you don't end up married to one of them, before you are old enough and wise enough to spot them ahead of time.
Isabel1130 at August 24, 2011 7:30 PM
I kind of think it's OK to shelter children from all the dark and psychotic stuff out there if you teach them to build mutually rewarding friendships with great people.
For about the first thirty years I heard divorced people say "But I didn't know he was a horndog liar!" or "But I didn't know she was a psychobitch!" And these things were said as excuses.
But they don't excuse all these bad matchups, not in the numbers we see nowadays.
Yes, you're right; this is a socialization failure. So if you're naive, you should earn the affection of the best, most demanding, most courageous friends you can find... And ask them for opinions when selecting partners.
I just can't believe staying married is as difficult as people will say it is. I know too many who are too good at it.
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at August 24, 2011 8:39 PM
Half a mil? That's nuthin'
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at August 25, 2011 12:40 AM
I'm halfway through Theodore Dalrymple's Life at the Bottom. The book is a series of pieces he wrote about working as an emergency room doctor in a hospital that treats poor people, a prison psychiatrist, and in other fields that enabled him to closely study what he calls England's "underclass."
The theme of the book is not as much what makes people poor, but what keeps them poor.
The majority of it, he writes, is an inability to own up to personal responsibility.
"The knife went in," a murderer tells him. "My head just went," another tells him, describing how he came to commit violence.
A young man from a nice family blames his descent into violence and drug abuse on the fact that he is "easily led." But he has no answer when Dalrymple asks him why he was not easily led by his parents into a life of law-abiding and productivity, like his brother (doctor) and sister (attorney) were.
While Dalrymple excorciates England's educational system, judicial system, and popular culture for their contribution to endemic poverty and underclass violence, he reserves the majority of the blame for people's own choices.
Conan the Grammarian at August 25, 2011 11:35 AM
I just can't believe staying married is as difficult as people will say it is. I know too many who are too good at it.
THIS. I hear a lot of people bitching about how they just didn't know, yet, if you ask their friends, their friends certainly knew. I put myself in this canmp. I knew. I was just ignoring what I knew.
MonicaP at August 25, 2011 11:36 AM
"I put myself in this camp. I knew. I was just ignoring what I knew. "
Similar story here... the warning signs were in her own behavior and interactions with me. I chose to ignore them, and I made that choice without really considering any alternative.
Cousin Dave at August 25, 2011 4:14 PM
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