The New Racism: Expecting English Fluency And Correct Pronunciation From Teachers
Walter Olson blogs at Cato about a story by Pat Kossan in the Arizona Republic about how Arizona has come to "an agreement with federal officials to stop monitoring classrooms for mispronounced words and poor grammar from teachers of students still learning the English language," thus avoiding a threatened Federal civil-rights lawsuit.
The issue: "Discrimination" against teachers who are not native English speakers.
Kossan writes:
The investigation began after unnamed parties filed a civil-rights complaint in May 2010 alleging that the state's on-site monitoring reports led to teachers being removed from classrooms based on their accents.In November, federal officials told Arizona that its fluency monitoring may violate the Civil Rights Act of 1964 by discriminating against teachers who are Hispanic and others who are not native English speakers.
Under the agreement, the Arizona Department of Education will remove the fluency section from the form used by its monitors who visit classrooms. It also will require schools and districts to file assurances with the state that their teachers are fluent. The state did not admit any wrongdoing.
As a result, federal officials determined there were insufficient facts to establish a civil-rights violation and closed the case.
Walter clears things up for anyone who thinks this started with the Obama administration:
Does this strike you as perhaps a bit crazy? If so, it's craziness with quite a pedigree. It was way back in the first Bush administration that the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission (EEOC) began filing lawsuits against employers for "discriminating" against employees with difficult-to-understand or heavily accented speech, the theory being that this served as an improper proxy for discrimination based on national origin.
Let's remember that "discrimination" isn't always a bad thing. For example, I try to be discriminating in my choice of questions I put in my column so I can address interesting issues. I avoid answering the myriad questions I get from prison in my column (including one that arrived postage due, this week -- very charming). They're all 1. Innocent, 2. Guilty but verrrry nice, 3. Looking for a good woman.
And 4. Idiots.
Who writes to an advice columnist -- someone who gets letters for a living -- in hopes of getting a pen pal?
If I can't comprehend what a teacher is saying because their English is mangled I drop the class and take it later with another teacher. So ya, definitely in their interest to get rid of teachers that are essentially speaking a different language even if it still called English.
NakkiNyan at September 26, 2011 11:34 PM
If the teacher is still reasonably understood and not teaching formal English I see no reason to dismiss them. And is there really that much agreement on what is correct?
is harassment more like her ass ment or haris ment?
First day of English 101 prof says,"Remember what your HS teachers taught you? Forget it, it is wrong. Most that is what was considered correct in the 60s."
The Former Banker at September 26, 2011 11:48 PM
I'd say it depends. If their accent is so thick that they are difficult to understand, they shouldnt be teaching.
Assuming one can understand them, well, what are they teaching? If they are teaching math it is one thing. If they are teaching ESL, you arent doing those kids any favors by giving them a teacher who doesnt speak standard american accent (that goes for thick regional accents as well)
Also, if you have a large esl student population, most of the teachers should be native english speakers so the kids can learn. A few accented teachers would be fine, but they should be the minority. If your student population is native english speaking it doesnt matter so much.
NicoleK at September 27, 2011 1:12 AM
I remember a few years ago when I worked and a local elementary school an Asian teacher was teaching an ESL class, she had an accent. The line from the story was about a mouse that would nibble, nibble, nibble and all the ESL kids in her class thought it read nipple, nipple, nipple.
Jo at September 27, 2011 1:48 AM
This is where we have problems with the Federal Government...well, one area anyway.
Former Banker, yes, there is pretty much a broad agreement of what is correct pronunciation in the American version of spoken English.
Yes, some things change with time, and the population's speech will adjust with it.
However nobody is doing new residents a favor by giving them incorrectly accented speech. The best case scenario here is that people they depend on will overlook it. But more likely serious employers will hire somebody they understand completely.
If you go into a job interview sounding like Peter Griffin's impersonation of Rosie Perez, you are walking out without a job.
If on the other hand, they sound a bit more like Desi Arnaz when he played Ricky Ricardo on "I Love Lucy", they'll likely be just fine.
An accent is not a terrible thing, an accent that butchers the spoken language and makes nibble into nipple...not helping.
Besides that, the most obvious thing here in the world is that they're trying to learn English as English Speakers use it. Not as non English speakers would, why on earth would it make sense to hire somebody into a teaching position who cannot do that?
Robert at September 27, 2011 2:30 AM
Please note: we are not talking about college here, but about elementary school.
In elementary school, children are learning English grammar and vocabulary for the first time. More, they generally have the same teacher for most of the day, and hence learn a lot from the way this teacher speaks and acts even when discussing other topics.
It is critically important that the teacher speak grammatically correct English with no strong accent. I don't care if the strong accent is Spanish, Chinese or even Southern-Peach-Georgian - it has no place in front of a classroom of primary-school children.
Note that some of the reasons this program was put in place included: Teachers unable to explain something in English, and therefore resorting to Spanish. Using Spanish teaching materials. Making really basic errors in their speech ("How do we call it?" instead of "What do we call it?"). Even then, Arizona didn't have the guts to fire anyone, they just "offered training", etc..
This is the government at its best: you cannot discriminate against someone who is unqualified for their job.
a_random_guy at September 27, 2011 2:32 AM
"an agreement with federal officials to stop monitoring classrooms for mispronounced words and poor grammar from teachers of students still learning the English language,"
Do they mean the teachers are still learning the English language, or the students are?
I don't think there's anything wrong with having a teacher whose first language isn't English or has an accent...as long as they're not, you know, trying to teach kids how to read and write English and proper grammar.
Which I would imagine would fall pretty squarely under what an elementary school teacher is supposed to do, no? That's like me demanding to be allowed to teach math, despite being horrible at it.
Choika at September 27, 2011 5:49 AM
In Jr High I took Latin from a teacher who was from Germany. The first day she says, "Now cwass. You wiw find me to be a vewy, vewy, difficut teacheh. Because I am weawwy, weawwy goink to hahp on yah pwonunciation." Even at 13 I was very glad Latin was a dead language and I wouldn't have to worry about looking like a dumbass in front of a native speaker.
--------
In college I took physics 1 and had a Russian professor, an Indian TA, and a Greek lab partner. Even in a hard science (like physics or math) heavy accents can be a problem.
Elle at September 27, 2011 6:18 AM
This happened in the UK to a grade school kid who requested a different study group because everyone else only spoke Urdu. She was charged with racism by the police.
lsomber at September 27, 2011 6:38 AM
This one hits a little close to home for me right now, because I am an unemployed teacher.
I got an email and callback from a hiring manager at a private education company. The English was so heavily-accented and grammar so garbled that I barely understood what I was being told. The email from this MANAGER at an EDUCATION company contained the phrase "if you interest, email back for specif diretion."
The Original Kit at September 27, 2011 7:25 AM
"Who writes to an advice columnist -- someone who gets letters for a living -- in hopes of getting a pen pal?"
The answer; Someone with no real friends and a lot of time on their hands. Lonely, isolated people are desperate to connect with other people any way they can.
Isabel1130 at September 27, 2011 7:45 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2011/09/27/english_fluency.html#comment-2518993">comment from The Original KitThere's a guy in the phone department of my bank whose English is just TERRIBLE. Okay, you're not from here, but if you don't speak good English, you shouldn't be in a job answering English-speaking customers' questions about banking!
Amy Alkon at September 27, 2011 8:19 AM
I wouldn't have an issue with an accent, as long as the teacher is easily understandable... but if someone is teaching English, or general grade-school education, they need to speak properly. That includes "native" english speakers who can't seem to get words like "ask" right, or don't realize that the plural form of "deer" isn't "deers."
As for college professors: A university is doing its students a disservice if it's hiring professors they can't understand. This was only an issue for me once- in a History of Chinese Civilization class- and it was awful.
Prison Penpals: When I cocktailed at the "gentlemen's club," there was usually a letter from some "really nice guy who got into some trouble" seeking a penpal on the cork board in the office. I don't know if any of the girls ever took them up on it... You know, even guys like Scott Peterson meet women while in prison. So, I guess there's some twisted chick out there who might think it's fun to start up a "friendship" with an incarcerated felon; I just don't know one.
ahw at September 27, 2011 8:26 AM
You people just don't understand that the rights of a teacher superceed the rights of 30 students.
Steamer at September 27, 2011 9:08 AM
"You people just don't understand that the rights of a teacher superceed the rights of 30 students."
The students don't have a union. :-)
Isabel1130 at September 27, 2011 9:29 AM
There are a number of issues at play, the two I care about :-) are:
1) Is the accent so bad students can't understand what the hell the teacher is saying? I had a few of these at university, none in grade school, though I did have a couple non-native teachers in high school.
2) Is their english a grammatical disaster? This is a big problem if they are supposed to be teaching this to their students. And it's often as much a problem for native speakers and the non-native ones. And disturbing to me, I see evidence of it everytime a teacher going for a Masters or EDD submits an IRB application with spelling and grammatical errors not only in the application but also in the consent forms to be sent to parents.
Catherine at September 27, 2011 9:30 AM
It took me a while to figure out what my freshman economics instructor was talking about when he was referring to goons and booter(guns and butter). As a novice to the subject, I was totally lost and passed with a D. This happened with a few of my classes, and looking back, I wonder how many job openings I was passed on due to a low GPA.
Goo at September 27, 2011 10:45 AM
If you are teaching English, it's very important to both Speak and Write it well, because all the little kiddies are learning it from you... in fact, if they don't speak English at home, they will end up sounding just like you when they speak it.
You would THINK that it would be a priority to teach this to kids so they can get ahead in the world, rather than causing them a disadvantage.
In many minds it's more important to make everyone equal, even if it's equally bad, than to get everyone to do their best.
If you think the kids have problems with English, you should see what they are like with math...
Heh, wanna piss people off? We should outsource to India, and specify flawless English as a requirement. There are plenty who are actually quite well spoken there...
SwissArmyD at September 27, 2011 11:00 AM
That is ridiculous! If they're in the business of teaching English, their English should be held to a higher standard than other teachers.
Patrick at September 27, 2011 11:15 AM
Awesome. Even fewer children who will be competing against my kid for an executive position 30 years down the road.
And yes, I realize there are executives with accents. But something tells me if you cannot pronounce words like "accurately" or "arbitrage" correctly, the interview will be short.
One of my teachers in nursing school put it very bluntly once - to a room with several foreign students in it:
How comfortable would you feel with a nurse giving you guidelines on a medication he or she couldn't pronounce correctly?
UW Girl at September 27, 2011 1:07 PM
I dropped out of my first Calculus class (and eventually decided not to get an EE) because my instructor was incomprehensible (as well as being not good at teaching).
The idea that the ability to communicate by spoken language, in a clear and comprehensible way, is just a proxy for birthplace discrimination, rather than a core requirement of the job, is utter bollocks.
Sigibald at September 27, 2011 1:49 PM
As for college professors: A university is doing its students a disservice if it's hiring professors they can't understand.
Yeah, I had a CS Prof who was from Romania and had a very thick accent. It literally took 50+% of your brain power just to understand WTF he was saying. To top it off, he also decided to ignore the syllabus and teach things he liked instead. A class that started with 40+ people trying to crash (on top of the 40+ already in it) ended with about 9 people, 3 of whom actually passed. You'd think someone would get a clue about the guy.
Miguelitosd at September 27, 2011 2:26 PM
Heh, wanna piss people off? We should outsource to India, and specify flawless English as a requirement. There are plenty who are actually quite well spoken there..
Some, yes. But as one who regularly interacts with a LOT of Indian people, many of them are very hard to understand due to a very thick accent.
I really want to know where "Please do the needful" comes from too.
Miguelitosd at September 27, 2011 2:32 PM
It seems people took my post (first post) the wrong way. I literally spent day one without understanding a single thing he taught in class due to his accent... When you are spending 250-750 a credit hour it is absolutely unacceptable. For me this was the days before Google searches where I could not look up the problem and learn what I missed. Day two was better (I think he was calmer) but I could not afford an F just because he was not speaking clearly. English != broken English and students that can't drop classes are seriously in trouble. I am taking classes again online and for classmates with English as a first language (I refuse to call it fluent) they can be incomprehensible at times. I have to wonder if they had one of these teachers...
NakkiNyan at September 27, 2011 4:20 PM
NakkiNyan... that's essentially what happened to me. I couldn't move things around (it was a required undergrad CS class for much of what I would need to move on to the next year, and the other offering conflicted with other classes) and I thought I could stick it out. Once I realized there was no way I was going to get through the class, more because of his lack of actually teaching the things he was supposed to teach then the accent, I wasn't able to drop. I ended up having to retake that class (thankfully with another professor) the next semester and fit in some required electives since I couldn't take the next level of classes yet.
I did make several mistakes myself though: like piling on far too many classes with large programming assignments at once so that there was just too much work to get it all done.
Miguelitosd at September 27, 2011 4:31 PM
As an economics major, either my professor or TA was not American and completely incomprehensible. I passed by studying on my own. I skipped most small sections, unless it was a requirement by the class. When I asked others why they stayed, they said it was because they could understand what they wrote on the board.
At the end of every quarter, I came to the class to submit my review of the course and wage my complaint. I'm sure it fell on deaf ears because those TAs remained.
NikkiG at September 27, 2011 4:39 PM
Yeah, I had a math professor in college who spoke English very poorly. To make it worse, he didn't know the English words for some math terms, and would use terms from some other language (I was never sure which lauguage!). The cherry on top of that cake was that he didn't use the same notation for integrals that the rest of the world uses. I busted my ass in that class and made a C.
I will claim that accented speech and proper pronunciation of words are two almost entirely unrelated concepts. An accent consists of things like a variation in the pitch of vowels, or different amount of stress on certain consonants. No one who hears me speak is ever going to mistake me for a native New Yorker, but I try to use proper pronunciation and enunciation. Similarly, if I listen to someone from, say, Boston, their accent may sound a bit odd to my ear, but as long as they do a reasonably good job of pronunciation (and grammar and usage), I have no problem understanding them.
Cousin Dave at September 27, 2011 5:54 PM
I've fortunately only had one teacher who was not a native English speaker. He was a Russian emigrant of some 15-20 years. He still had problems with colloquial English, but he was grammatically correct and only rarely did you notice the accent.
Side note to this: if you ever are having problems getting through the customer service lines or getting good answers from who you do eventually the next time -- punch the 2 for Spanish. Generally they will be Americans, or English speaking U.S. Hispanics that can answer your question.
Jim P. at September 27, 2011 7:29 PM
As a Freshman at Arizona State I had two TAs from elsewhere with pretty thick accents. I'm pretty sure one was from Bangladesh. I don't recall where the other was from. It did make the classes much harder than they needed to be since so much brainpower had to be diverted into language comprehension rather than engineering or chemistry.
LauraGr at September 27, 2011 7:31 PM
Overheard a conversation at work between an immigrant (from India I would guess) and local.
The immigrant could not understand the saying that you cannot compare apples to oranges. "I can compare them. The orange is more spherical." some explanation. "You mean you can only compare things if they are the same? How is that useful? You know they are the same."
It was quite entertaining.
The Former Banker at September 27, 2011 10:20 PM
Mentioned this to an officemate, the one whose sister is a teacher in eastern Georgia, and his reply was that you don't have to go overseas to get illiterate teachers. Just go to any school system with a hiring quota.
You can usually tell. Something posted in public will be wrecked, like the Washington DC bus ads a while back: "Go to school. It a blast!"
Of course, that's the environment where they have to beg people to attend...
Radwaste at September 30, 2011 12:58 PM
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