old ladies can read men, and if a man's a good man, like nobody can

Can anyone read women and if a womans a good woman like nobody can? if old ladies are good at that, the y might come in useful.

Ya gotta watch people and see what they do when they think no one's looking. I had a saying, back in the day, that "The probability of someone watching you is directly proportional to the stupidity of your actions." The best example I can give is of the asshole I watched pickpocket a woman, taking her wallet out of her purse, and when she grabbed his arm, he was all 'oh, I'm sorry, this is YOURS? I thought my girlfriend put it in your purse by mistake!' True story, it happened at the mall a couple years back. I stayed right where I was until mall security came over, ready to tell the guard what really happened. Guy's girlfriend was nowhere NEAR the lady's purse! As it turned out, that guy AND his girlfriend had been banned from the mall the month before, for doing the same thing. Figures.

That said, I look at people for their reactions to kids, as well. If a person is kind to a child, even when that child is crying or being bratty, chances are, they're a decent kind of person.

Whether or not they "cheat" in traffic: i.e. Using the breakdown lane to bypass a traffic jam or waiting until the very last moment to merge.

The most extreme case: Following in the "wake" of an ambulance as it weaves through traffic.

How people are conscientious of others' personal space seems to say a lot about their character.

Ab, that car weaving behind the ambulance may be related to the person in the ambulance. I took one ride in an ambulance in my life, I was 17 and dying, and you bet my dad was on that ambulance like glue through every light and turn. I always try to give people the benefit of the doubt-is there a legitimate reason they might be doing this, not involving being an asshole? if so, I try to assume that's the reason.

I look at how people are in crowds. Are they shoving, and standing aside and smiling? Holding the door for others? If so, they're probably good people.

DH and I were at Wendy's with the kids a few years back. He went up to get some ketchup, and took a few minutes talking to some people near the door. Turns out, they were Katrina evacuees trying to figure out how to buy the most food with what money they had. He gave them $20. That's a good man (even if they were scamming, which is possible)

How they behave at a Starbucks.

I also notice whether or not they're conscientious - do they hold doors for people? Do they step aside for someone to get on the subway? Or are they constantly glued to an electronic device?

I also once was told I passed the "drink test" when a guy in a diner accidentally dumped a glass of Diet Coke on my head. He was trying to walk back to his table, and he couldn't balance his tray.

Diet Coke comes out of a t-shirt and jeans (and my hair) pretty easily. To be perfectly honest, I'm not sure I would have been /as/ gracious if it was red wine on white cashmere. I might have allowed him to pay for the garment.

Some things I look for: Does the person pirate music and films? Does the person do things like drop eggs in the supermarket and then skulk away instead of notifying someone? Does she leave her shopping cart rolling free in the parking lot instead of putting it back in the rack? Does the person stuff more than one bag in the overhead bin? Order clothes from a catalog, wear them, and return them? If someone dings her car in the parking lot, does she handle it calmly or tear into him?

Someone who is considerate of others and behaves honestly about even small matters is probably trustworthy.

> Posted by: Insufficient Poison

If you ever wanna share the anecdote, we'll be looking forward to it.

"As for old ladies having this man-sense"
Should ask the old ladies how they do it. Though it may be so subconscious that they don't even know.

I've heard that people who love animals make good parents. I'm not sure if that's a true observation or merely a slam on children.

We had a similar discussion on a dating website regarding first dates. How they treat the server was the top. Another was to share an appetizer, basket of wings or plate of nachos and see if they try to snag the last bite or offer it to you.

How someone treats their family and how their parents treat each other. These are the first relationships you know and the ones you have the most exposure to early in life. Even in cases where the relationship goes toxic and a family member has to be cut out it still tells you a lot about the person, and it's not negative by default.

Am I the only person here that thinks intentionally dumping a cold, wet drink on someone to test quality of character is a rather crummy thing to do?!

Years ago I took a lovely couple out for sushi on a Saturday night. I knocked over some Sake, and it puddled on the table. No harm, no foul.

On Tuesday, we happened to meet at a company party, and the wife spilled her red wine. No harm, no foul.

But it was fun to tease her about the importance of drinking clear inebriants...

If you hear a please, thank you, or excuse me, you have a clue.

There are a lot of people who think nothing of blocking the entire aisle in a store, or walking right into your path like you don't exist.

The shopping cart thing is a pet peeve of mine. How much trouble is it to push the thing fifty feet more where it won't roll into someone's car? It's not like you couldn't push it through the store and out to your car when it was full.

I admit to being prejudiced against Starbucks and its customers. I find the place unbearably pretentious, and I reflexively wonder about anyone who plays the vent-grande-barrista game. That's probably enough to put me on the list of rude people, but I wouldn't say it to anyone's face. I just don't go there.

My wife knocked over a glass of red wine at a dinner party on Saturday. Nobody made a big deal about it. Fortunately, the tablecloth was burgundy in colour.

Next time this group gets together, I'm going to bring along one of my grandson's sippy cups and exchange it for her wine glass before we sit down to dinner.

The loving animals theory is a problem for me.

Adolf Hitler loved animals so much he banned hunting and vivisection and couldn't bear to watch people having dinner with him if they ate meat.

I suppose he might have been a good parent, but I think there are decent grounds for doubting this.

On the other hand, I'd agree that cruelty to animals is a reasonable indicator of a nasty person.

Whether or not they "cheat" in traffic: i.e.... waiting until the very last moment to merge.

We have been having a bit of a controversy in MN about this. In the circumstance when you lose a lane (2=>1, 3=>2, whatever) traffic scientists have proven that traffic flows faster when you *do* wait until the last minute to merge. Our DOT has publicized this lately and posted signs at construction sites and choke points asking motorists to go all the way to the end and merge there.

Nevertheless, the papers are full of letters to the editor claiming otherwise and calling anyone who waits to merge really bad names.

"I am much smarter than science!"

My cousin taught me a neat two-part test. A person must either love animals and/or be a pleasant social drinker. If both elements are absent, you are suspect.

I solve the cart problem by grabbing a loose one from the lot--never a shortage.

It's actually a good thing for their employees to gather carts -- a LOT of muggings and break-ins occur in parking lots, and the more folks circulating, the safer it gets.

non-verbal eh? This is a toughie without interaction but... in retail you can watch to see if someone refolds a garment that they've pulled out to look at. Doesn't have to be perfect, but if they give a good shot... it's a little thing to watch for. I've seen people rifle through a whole endcap looking for their size and one of the workers had to re-do the whole thing...

course you can run into people who are well taught, and yet are complete nasty pieces of work.

I watched a toddler pull down a bunch of stuff in the grocery from his cart seat... and his mom calmly walked up the aisle as if she wasn't involved. She didn't even tell the kid it was bad - he was laughing, because he thought it was funny [and for a toddler, it was]. I asked my two children to help me put it all back, because I'm a big believer in doing something if it needs doing, rather than "well, that's why they have people working here, isn't it?"

> A person must either love animals and/or be a
> pleasant social drinker.

Listen, there are no tea leaves for this kind of judgment. Maybe observations like that put you in the right frame of mind to reflect on how someone's company makes you feel, but those tokens alone won't get you on the reality train...

...Especially the one about animals. There are all kinds of human monsters out there who are very kind to their kittens and parakeets.

There's a famous historical example that's off-limits to blog commenters, if you catch my drift. Wink-wink, nudge-nudge.

I think the reverse is true, though... A person who takes joy in cruelty to animals will eventually be cruel to people. It's a shame that the principle isn't conveniently symmetric with kindness.

And yes, mean drunks are to be avoided.

I was hitting 100% right up to the "pleasant social drinker" bit. Alas, I am a very poor social drinker. World- class lightweight. A whiff of alcohol fumes and I make wild promises then roll onto the floor to sleep under the table and drool on my shirt.

I was doing great on the list up until then tho.

If they're breathing, they're a threat. Mwa Ha Ha.

Regarding shopping carts: My other peeve about them is when people do take them to the cart return spots, but just sorta leave them willy-nilly. I find it annoying to find a 1/2 dozen or so carts all just sitting around, not pushed together, often nearly wedged into place now. It seems so lazy to not take the extra 1 or 2 seconds to simply push them together. So I'm the guy that usually take 10-15 seconds to fix them all. I actually tend to prefer parking near the cart return stalls vs trying to get just a little closer to the front door too. I plan ahead vs saving a few seconds/feet of walking.

Of course, it drives me nuts when centers make their required parking spaces by not bothering to put in any shopping cart return spots so that it basically guarantees that most people will now just leave them all over the place because even those that will usually return them to a cart return spot nearby, they won't cross the whole lot again to take them back in front of the store. I tend to avoid shopping at locations like that because I know there will be carts all over the place.

About the "cheating in traffic" when it comes to merging. I assumed the original meant (and this drives me crazy) not specific spots with lanes ending but coming up to exits. It drives me nuts when people won't wait their turn but will race down in the next lane, then jam on their brakes and push their way into the exit line at the last second. Those cases are very dangerous because they suddenly slow down in a lane that was moving faster and it tends to ripple back down that lane (and others to the left as people swerve to avoid them). They always essentially push their way into the lane as well, not merging safely but essentially cutting in front of someone that either means you let them in, or hit them. I've seen the CHP sit on exists at times in the morning where this is a real problem that creates traffic choke points when a lot of people do this mode of "cheating."

momof4: True, it may be family, but in Boston, ambulances weaving their way through traffic on the central artery almost always have "tails" of 3-4 cars (and you'll see cars try to join the tail as the ambulance goes through).

Ken: That's actually true about waiting until the last minute... if everyone does it. (Think about it, if it's a 2 into 1, the fastest way to move traffic is to alternate lanes at the very end.)

However, that's never really the case. There's always a slow, gradual process long before the actual merge point, and the traffic beyond that "natural merge" starts slowly moving through... until someone speeds to the front and angles his way in, stopping traffic for a second time.

From the Talmud (my translation):

A person's character is revealed in their tippling, their tipping, and their temper.

So not much has changed in roughly 2000 years.

Having been a retail worker, I pay attention to how people shop, and how they treat retail workers.

SwissArmyD hit the nail on the head.

Unless someone is behaving really badly, I don't read anything into how they shake hands or whether they take the last cookie or whatever. I've known too many people who had good manners only around people who were useful to them, and people with indifferent manners whom I could count on in a pinch.

See also Gone with the Wind and Sense and Sensibility.

True, it may be family, but in Boston, ambulances weaving their way through traffic on the central artery almost always have "tails" of 3-4 cars (and you'll see cars try to join the tail as the ambulance goes through)

Ah, if you'd only said Boston up front. Most obnoxious drivers in the country.

"Whether or not they "cheat" in traffic: i.e.... waiting until the very last moment to merge."

I'd have to agree with Ken on this one. When I was stationed in San Francisco I had to get on the SF-Oakland Bay Bridge every evening. My merge ramp went 3 to 2 to 1. The traffic never stopped, they just kept merging at each choke point. No attempts to merge earlier that I noticed.

AB, in some places I'd agree that the merging is done poorly. The earlier natural merge slows traffic IMHO just as much as or more than the barge-in type.

But I would use that metric for judging people where your "natural merge" is the prevalent method.

I agree that kindness to animals means nothing as to kindness to people, but real cruelty to animals is warning sirens and flashing red lights.

>>"Having been a retail worker, I pay attention to how people shop, and how they treat retail workers."

Ditto. Anyone that argues about corporate policy, returns with no proof of purchase, tries to go to each cashier for a different response for their expired coupons/argument, etc. Or like the ladies I saw at Taco Bell today. They're elderly, and having trouble getting around, so they ask the girl behind the counter for help. She brings their things to a table, and they proceeded to give her such a hard time, asking for this and that and the other thing - WITHOUT saying please or thank you once!!

I once had a waitress tell me that I was the first one to say please and thank you to her all day.

Now that I have a baby, going out with the stroller or the car carrier is a trial. Both are huge and cumbersome, but absolutely required for an infant (I'll switch up to an umbrella stroller as soon as I can!). So a new litmus test for me has been to see who cuts me off and who lets me pass with these giant baby items. And because the damn wheels on the friggin' stroller have no turn radius (can you tell I hate this thing?), I make sure to apologize profusely for my bad driving. Those who accept it with grace and those who grumble are two indicators.

And yes, mean drunks are to be avoided.

That's why I stopped hanging out with that Clark Kent fellow.

I always thank servers, and use please, but I'm pretty sure I read in Miss Manners or somewhere that that's actually incorrect. Which seemed odd to me.

I think the tests really only work in showing they are bad (e.g. kicking kittens shows they are bad, being nice to kitens doesn't mean they are nice.)

If my grandmother and her friends are any indication, old ladies know because they gossip so much they know everything that is going on.

The traffic study above are over simplified. It is true that waiting till the last minute is always optimal so long as every drives optimally for maximum flow--this may involve doing things that are not what one would expect, or even can know to do (e.g. do this because in 200 feet that driver is going to do that). In reality the question is very complicated and can change per amount of traffic or existing backup. I just realized I am a assuming that they are using he same study used to dismiss similar statements about a redone road way where I used to live.

"I always thank servers, and use please, but I'm pretty sure I read in Miss Manners or somewhere that that's actually incorrect. Which seemed odd to me."

Far too often it seems like Miss Manners is written more like "Miss Stuck Up Bitch" anymore to me. At least the few things I've looked up (like what you said) comes across that way. I think it's nice to thank people, even when they're doing their job.

"Ah, if you'd only said Boston up front. Most obnoxious drivers in the country."

Miami could give them a run for the title.

Two "tests" come to mind:

What a person does when given too much change

What they do if they find something another person lost, like a wallet

I know what I would do (but I won't tell). OK, OK - I would do the right thing.

Or what person does when they are undercharged.

(Which is pretty much the same thing as just a guy said above, except he's a nasty person because he said it a few minutes before I did, even though he knew I thought of it first.)

If someone really needed the wallet cause they lost their job and had kids, or were homeless n hungry and kept it, would that make them a bad person?

I don't think anyone is a good or bad person. I don't think any one person is clearly on one side or the other. We've all said bad things, done bad things, etc etc etc. The indicator of a persons character to me lies in the surrounding circumstances. If a millionaire finds the wallet and doesn't return it, he's clearly an asshat. If he's homeless, not so much.

Also, lots of assholes have cats. Lots of nice people can't handle their liquor.

Gotta read the book to judge it.

"I always thank servers, and use please, but I'm pretty sure I read in Miss Manners or somewhere that that's actually incorrect. Which seemed odd to me."

Probably, you read it somewhere else. From Miss Manners' Guide to Excruciatingly Correct Behavior: Freshly Updated, p. 204: "Thank you. Follows any granted request, however trivial or perfunctory. (Note to Gentle Reader who argues that he is 'not obligated to be profusely grateful for a person's actions or requests in the normal course of their work': No, but you are obliged to say 'please' and 'thank you' to them.)

From p. 476: "Miss Manners cannot bear the notion that the grace notes of politeness should be ripped from the ordinary transactions of life that can be reasonably expected. By that reasoning, no one should ever praise you for a job well done, because that is what you are being paid to do. Absolutely, you should thank them when they grant the requests you list. What does it cost you?"

On the same subject, one of my aunts knew one of Alfred Hitchcock's maids. The maid said that guests who didn't thank the servants weren't invited back.

My parents criteria is whether a girlfriend offers to help prepare or clean up dinner without being asked. However, I agree with previous commenters that all these things are only suggestions. Lots of terrible or just mediocre people can be polite or charming and do the right thing for some amount of time. And good people can have blind spots in certain areas of manners/kindness or just have a bad day. I'm sure we've all done things that we would judge harshly in others. I think these little heuristics are definitely useful, but unfortunately the only way to really be sure is to know someone for a significant amount of time.

"I don't think anyone is a good or bad person."

There most certainly are bad people. If there weren't, kids would never be brutally abused or murdered. Or do you think that can be situational too? I am not a fan of situational ethics. It's simply a tool to rationalize doing what one wants to do anyway but knows one shouldn't. Homeless people won't starve without that wallet, they simply need to be willing to go to the shelter or soup kitchen.

And let us not forget the Car Door Test from "A Bronx Tale".

"If someone really needed the wallet cause they lost their job and had kids, or were homeless n hungry and kept it, would that make them a bad person?"-Angel

Yeah, it would. It's stealing when you take something that doesn't belong to you, and when you steal, you're pretty much hurting someone else to get what you want or make yourself feel better in some way.

If I drop my wallet, I suddenly owe the homeless person a pass because, hey, they "need" MY money more than I do? No, absolutely not.

I watch how people drive in traffic especially when other drivers do stupid things. People who overreact or get resentful when other drivers make mistakes are pointing out their volatility.

Driving also shows other things. I used to have breakfast with someone most weeks. One day on the way to a restaurant he blew through a photo-revenue point and started cursing. A few minutes later I realized I'd forgotten something so we went back to my place to get it. He blew through the same photo-revenue trap after we left my place the second time.

The same guy mentioned above would cut through shopping centers to avoid traffic lights. I used to ask him what the hurry was. We'd spend 2-3 hours having breakfast and talking, and it didn't matter if we spent an extra few minutes in the car.

You all have mentioned pets, but I think the way a pet acts is a clue. I take my dog to a coffee shop a few times a week. I don't allow her to bark, and she wouldn't think to snarl or bite anyone. If she craps on the grass, I clean it up.

I saw a guy at the coffee shop dragging a dog down the sidewalk. The guy was on his phone and the dog was hopping and crapping.

This brings up one last thing - awareness of surroundings. I was out at a dance club years ago and 2 guys started posturing on the dance floor. The woman I was with saw the hole as people moved away from the future combatants, and danced right in. I moved her away and she went right back into the hole a second time. She was just totally oblivious to what was developing around her.

"Far too often it seems like Miss Manners is written more like "Miss Stuck Up Bitch" anymore to me."

How does one tell who somebody is?

When they object strongly to someone suggesting that they behave politely...

Perhaps you should address your concern, in black or blue-black ink on white writing paper, to Miss Manners. I expect she would be more gracious than yourself, but only by dint of having more practice, of course.

"Miami could give them a run for the title."

A few years ago, someone in Miami shot the first driver in line on US1 waiting to turn left across traffic. Apparently they were too timid to move until the road was totally clear. The shooter killed him left-handed, leaning out of his car, with one shot. Quite the achievement.

The whole line of cars went around the dead guy, and it was a few minutes before anybody stopped.