Advice Goddess Radio: Get The Podcast, Dr. Robert Glover on "Too-Nice Guys"
Amy Alkon talks with Dr. Robert Glover, author of No More Mr. Nice Guy, on how a "too-nice guy" can transform himself into the guy who actually gets the girl. Play the podcast or download (click "play in your default player"):
http://www.blogtalkradio.com/amyalkon/2011/12/12/advice-goddess-radio-amy-alkon
I have been recommending Glover's book for years, and get glowing thank yous from too-nice guys who have used the book to transform themselves from resentful chore boys who make what Glover calls "covert contracts" with women into men who get the girl and what they want in various areas of their lives. It is not a book on picking up girls, nor is Glover only about succeeding with women, but his book does something those pickup artistry books do not: It tells men how to act with personal integrity as men so they won't need tricks to get the girls.
One of the bits on the show that really struck me was Glover's suggestion that a shy guy just walk up to a woman and tell her he's not very good at this sort of thing. If a guy had the guts to do that to me -- to be not good at hitting on women and cool enough with himself to say so to me -- I'd really admire him and I'd probably go out with him if I found him at all physically attractive.
Glover also compares how men need to be to the tango, which I thought was terrific. This explains why women shouldn't ask men out, why men need to ask women out, and how they need to play things in general.
This coming Sunday on Advice Goddess Radio, 7-8 pm Pacific, 10-11 pm Eastern, science journo David DiSalvo, author of the terrific new book on common human irrationalities, What Makes Your Brain Happy and Why You Should Do the Opposite. Link to upcoming DiSalvo show:
http://www.blogtalkradio.com/amyalkon/2011/12/19/advice-goddess-radio-amy-alkon
So many of the problems people write me about are really about them getting tripped up by their brains -- using thinking that would be helpful in one situation to unhelp themselves in another. (My friend Dr. Robert Kurzban explains this as well -- about our "modular minds" -- in his excellent book, Why Everyone (Else) Is a Hypocrite: Evolution and the Modular Mind.)
Be listening this Sunday or download the podcast: Amy Alkon's Advice Goddess Radio -- "Nerd your way to a better life!"
(Show opening created by Xenia Shin of the LA underground band Laco$te.)
> One of the bits on the show that really struck
> me was Glover's suggestion that a shy guy just
> walk up to a woman and tell her he's not very
> good at this sort of thing. If a guy had the
> guts to do that to me --
* * *Bzzzzzzzt
Radio guy Carolla used to talk about how the smokin'-ist young babes will always say they like a guy "with a sense of humor"... But these girls have no sense of irony and no deep curiosity about the intricate systems that make their world work. So any moderately perceptive observation about life and its hazards is going to confuse them. What they really want is to hear the catch phrase from last week's episode of Friends or Grey's Anatomy.
There was a scene like this in Tootsie many years ago... An otherwise forgettable movie. The blonde has her glass of wine [white] and starts farting about how she just wants a guy to be, y'know all HONEST and REAL... And then a guy comes up to her all HONEST and REAL and she's not impressed.
And her's our Amy! "If a guy had the guts..."
It's not that she means it, she just likes the way it feels, all smug and secure, to say things like that. "Guts" don't work that way, not for anyone.
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at December 14, 2011 10:49 AM
Does anyone remember that one from Amy and LS a few months ago, where everything that was wrong in their romantic lives was because men didn't have the courage to whatever-it-was?
Ahh, archives
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at December 14, 2011 11:30 AM
The "I'm a shy guy and don't ordinarily do this and will you go out with me?" line was used by my friends back in college in the late 80's. Nice to see that everything that's old is new again.
"It is not a book on picking up girls, nor is Glover only about succeeding with women"
Yet, isn't that the bottom line here? Isn't the primary metric here about the guy scoring and if he winds up alone because of his "personal integrity", he's just a loser in his parent's basement? On the flip side, there's the issue of women "succeeding with men" and they get the same advice: Don't ask out men and be "easy" because then men might stop buying us stuff. As I said, it's a game of chicken and I personally blinked but for aging women who are reading Cosmo and watching SatC, it's small comfort to know they "took one for the team."
I chuckled over this entry:
"I'd really admire him and I'd probably go out with him if I found him at all physically attractive."
Well, duh. A decent looking guy can bluster out the phone book and many women will let him buy her dinner. This isn't rocket science. And good looking guys needn't even bother with that. And the whole game changes when we hit our 30's.
Amy, have you ever read the book "How to get the woman you desire into bed?" It's (mostly) not speed seduction and said most of what I've heard about Glover's book. It even uses the phrase "nice guy". I took it with a grain of salt back in the 90's.
PK at December 14, 2011 11:38 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2011/12/14/advice_goddess_34.html#comment-2854609">comment from PKIsn't the primary metric here about the guy scoring and if he winds up alone because of his "personal integrity",
PK, I know how you love to weigh in and make assumptions (and knock) things you know nothing about. Your seething hostility is a standard too-nice guy hallmark (not that you come across here as nice -- or as anything more than a highly resentful, boulder-sized chip-on-your-shoulder type).
Of course, because a line is used before doesn't make it unwise and doesn't make Glover any less than terrific, which he was. You obviously need to knock people and thinking to elevate yourself (in this case, make out that Glover's not that great -- and you're wrong). Why not read his book and listen to the show so you can stop that? It's not only pathetic, with the degree of repetition you show here, it's tiresome.
I don't say this to many people, but I'd prefer that you stop posting here. You don't add to discussions; in fact, your comments just eat my time.
Glover is fantastic, and I recommend him and his book without reservation.
Amy Alkon at December 14, 2011 11:53 AM
Amy, if it comes down to that (say what you want to hear and it's your way or the highway), I'll respect that sentiment before you show me the door. That said, it sounds as if you're the one seething with resentment who can't handle being called out and wants to play it safe and avoid rejection. I wasn't attacking Glover personally. I was merely criticizing your interpretation of what he's said and that a lot of this is old hat. That doesn't make old hats bad. I'm an old hat.
I'm truly, at the bottom of my heart, sorry you feel like you wasted your time with me. Take care.
PK at December 14, 2011 12:29 PM
@PK - having actually listened to the radio show and heard what Glover himself actually said (in context), Amy's "interpretation" is actually far more correct than your incorrect assumption (that Glover meant it in a 'use this line in a fake way to seduce and to score', as you are claiming - nothing could be further from the truth). Perhaps you should read Glover's work instead of just making a series of wildly incorrect assumptions, based on what you've "heard", that it's just another 'how to seduce women' book. We're glad for you that seduction techniques are all "old hat" to you, thanks for reminding us how knowledgeable you are on seduction techniques, but that isn't even what this whole topic is about, and is only peripherally related to the actual discussion. Listen to the archive of the last radio show and maybe you'll see just how far you missed the mark on this one.
Lobster at December 14, 2011 1:04 PM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2011/12/14/advice_goddess_34.html#comment-2854718">comment from LobsterThanks, Lobster. It's so tiresome having to respond to these constant bleeds into the comments section by PK. I'm all for constructive criticism of people's work, but not attacks by those who know nothing of it (who are clearly commenting in service their own woundedness and self-aggrandisement).
I don't have just anyone on my show or include just anyone's work in my column, by the way -- only those whose minds and work I truly respect, and that isn't wide field.
Amy Alkon at December 14, 2011 1:32 PM
1) I never said the line was a seduction technique.
2) I said that the bottom line is to score and that Amy had criticized those who disagree with her using that metric.
3) The pick-up book I had read included general relationship advice similar to what I had heard here and in reviews. That's all I'm saying.
4) I have seen men who use seduction techniques (not by reading a book but by their own practice) but they're not for me.
5) I never said that Glover meant 'use this line in a fake way to seduce and to score' but was pointing out that when it's all said and done, that's basically what's going on. Amy went through the grind of asking men out and she knows how tough it is. This is why men use lines. To find a way to deal with emotional pain rather than just drop out. The lines needn't be cheesy but rather something he knows he can say when he's nervous such as: "You look pretty. Care to go out sometime?" It's rather shocking and a sign of our times that rather than women respecting men using lines they demand the man pretend to be sincere about them even as these women have no guts themselves to face rejection. Simply saying ANYTHING takes guts.
Anyways, Amy doesn't want to deal with me much longer but I'll listen to the podcast and let you know I did just for the record. OK?
PK at December 14, 2011 1:53 PM
If I had real guts, I'd just walk up to beautiful women and ask them if they want to have sex with me.
I R A Darth Aggie at December 14, 2011 2:28 PM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2011/12/14/advice_goddess_34.html#comment-2854804">comment from PKAmy went through the grind of asking men out and she knows how tough it is.
Again telling me what I think.
I did not find it tough. I found it fun. I love putting myself out there for possibilities and seeing what happens and trying to be clever about approaching people -- whether for business or anything else. I got my job, right out of college, at Ogiivy and Mather by doing up a highly creative and funny resume and then trying to sneak past the guard and go show somebody my student film. I got caught, and stood outside in the August heat, and decided to wait for somebody important looking to walk out. I saw this gray-haired man emerge from the building. I scampered behind him to 5th Avenue and asked him if he worked for O&M and if he'd give my resume to somebody who "could do something with it." He did, I got an interview (after sending 10 letters that were ignored) and I got hired.
Regarding my asking men out, I also found that women pursuing men does not work. Again, with guts -- by giving 10 or so men I'd asked out a survey patterned after hotel surveys to find out what they didn't like about me/my approach.
Fearful? Avoidant of tough situations? Me? Right.
I am fearless (except when heights, befanged dogs and people holding weapons are concerned) and once marched over and chewed out Gary Shandling for driving practically up my hatchback in his SUV. I give him as an example because most people would never behave that way around somebody famous. Oh, and I LOVED his show and think he's a comic genius. This being the case, he was driving like an asshole.
Amy Alkon at December 14, 2011 2:50 PM
> If I had real guts, I'd just walk up to
> beautiful women and ask them if they
> want to have sex with me.
No, Darth... Wrong. If you were TRULY courageous, I mean really the pinnacle of masculine fortitude you aspire to, you'd approach beautiful women and convince them to have sex with me.
THAT's guts, babe.
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at December 14, 2011 3:06 PM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2011/12/14/advice_goddess_34.html#comment-2854820">comment from I R A Darth AggieIf I had real guts, I'd just walk up to beautiful women and ask them if they want to have sex with me.
Doesn't usually work for a number of reasons -- have to write now, but look at Hatfield's study on this (flawed). It was recently replicated...and the new study was also flawed, same as Hatfield's. Newer one was published in Evolution and Human Behavior maybe six months ago. Problem is, in brief, women fear for their safety and have other reasons to be circumscribed about casual sex and that's not addressed in the study design (either time).
Amy Alkon at December 14, 2011 3:07 PM
Know what doesn't get enough attention? The "dismount" line. My favorite was Michael J Fox's from Secret of My Success:"quit beggin, will ya? It's embarrassing." That gem salvaged many a Solo Snake mission.
Snakeman99 at December 14, 2011 9:31 PM
Amy, I literally cannot argue with you because you're about this far away from banning me. I can understand that you've annoyed I didn't do my homework and read his book and listen to the podcast and I would have done the latter last night if I didn't need to get together two boxes for Christmas to send out this morning and the former I will do over the holidays. Aside from that, I'm muzzled on the rest. You win.
PK at December 15, 2011 12:37 PM
If a guy had the guts to do that to me -- to be not good at hitting on women and cool enough with himself to say so to me -- I'd really admire him and I'd probably go out with him if I found him at all physically attractive.
"if I found him at all physically attractive" is the key there. Having confidence is great but a guy can have all the confidence in the world and if the woman he's interested in isn't physically attracted to him he's most likely not going to get a date or a phone number.
Same for women. Guys might admire a woman who's confident enough in herself to initiate things (from flirting to asking them out) with them but if they're not physically attracted to her, then it's game over.
Jim at December 17, 2011 3:06 PM
Radio guy Carolla used to talk about how the smokin'-ist young babes will always say they like a guy "with a sense of humor".. What they really want is to hear the catch phrase from last week's episode of Friends or Grey's Anatomy.
Should that be surprising? When anyone, male or female, says they want someone "with a sense of humor" what they really mean is that they want someone with a sense of humor that is similar to theirs.
Jim at December 17, 2011 3:12 PM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2011/12/14/advice_goddess_34.html#comment-2860891">comment from JimRadio guy Carolla used to talk about how the smokin'-ist young babes will always say they like a guy "with a sense of humor".. What they really want is to hear the catch phrase from last week's episode of Friends or Grey's Anatomy.
Actually, that's not the case. Women want men who are clever and that isn't about reciting a line off a TV show but being spontaneously able to be funny. I not only observe this; I read the work on this (the research).
Amy Alkon at December 17, 2011 4:27 PM
Crid did say that Carolla was referring to "the smokin'-ist young babes.", not women in general. It doesn't seem farfetched to me that smokin' hot young babes might be more inclined to have a more pedestrian sense of humor.
In any case, as I said earlier, a woman doesn't want a guy with a sense of humor. She wants a guy with her sense of humor. A guy may feel that he's extremely clever and spontaneously funny and his friends may find him to be that way but if a woman he's interested in doesn't find him clever and funny, he's not gettin' anywhere with her.
Also, even if a woman finds a guy to be clever and funny, he's got to meet all the other requirements she has.
A co-worker of mine brought in a recent issue of US Airways magazine this week. In it, there was quote from Larry David, taken from an interview or story in Rolling Stone. David says "If I tried to flirt with a woman and she didn’t know who I was, she would run away."
Jim at December 17, 2011 7:17 PM
Glover also compares how men need to be to the tango, which I thought was terrific. This explains why women shouldn't ask men out, why men need to ask women out...
Sigh. Again with the wayward dance metaphor. As I've noted many times before, what matters is how well a couple dances together, not who asked the other one to dance.
Jim at December 17, 2011 7:25 PM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2011/12/14/advice_goddess_34.html#comment-2861253">comment from JimAnd your expertise in this area, to weigh in, is...Jim?
Oh, and you're wrong. He explains why.
It starts in biology. Listen to the show with Peter Jonason. Men and women look different -- down there -- and elsewhere. Read my column where it describes Griffin Hansbury, the difference before and after testosterone.
And a word of advice: When your advice is based merely on your opinion, utterly unsupported (except perhaps of notions that it's not faaaaaaair that men have to do the asking), it would behoove you to put a sock in it.
Amy Alkon at December 17, 2011 11:16 PM
When your advice is based merely on your opinion, utterly unsupported...
Amy, all you have to offer is conjecture. You don't have any "support" for your opinion. An example of real support, as opposed to your imaginary "support", would be evidence that relationships initiated by women are less likely to succeed than relationships initiated by men and/or that marriages resulting from relationships initiated by women are less likely to be described favorably by the couple.
Jim at December 18, 2011 1:58 PM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2011/12/14/advice_goddess_34.html#comment-2861896">comment from JimThere's plenty of support for this -- volumes and volumes of it. I've given you sources to look it up in the past. The fact that you cling to the belief which enables you to wallow in self-pity and moan about how unfair life is is your business. I'm not going to waste my time personally instructing you any further.
Amy Alkon at December 18, 2011 2:44 PM
There's plenty of support for this -- volumes and volumes of it.
And these "volumes and volumes of support" provide actual evidence -- as opposed to ev-psych-based hypotheses -- that relationships initiated by women are less likely to succeed than relationships initiated by men?
And these "volumes and volumes of support" provide actual evidence -- as opposed to ev-psych-based hypotheses -- that marriages resulting from relationships initiated by women are less likely to be described favorably by the couple?
Jim at December 18, 2011 4:41 PM
The fact that you cling to the belief...
Your belief: how a relationship is initiated is the only (or most important) factor in determining the success of the relationship. Everything else is pretty much irrelevant. Your belief is based on one action.
My belief: how a couple gets along (interests, values, chemistry) is the most important factor in determining the success of the relationship. My belief is based on a multitude of actions.
Jim at December 18, 2011 5:13 PM
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