Rebecca Watson Again: "Groped, Grabbed, Touched In Other Nonconsensual Ways"
According to her, in a post about why she won't be attending James Randi's The Amazing Meeting this year, male atheists (apparently she's talking about atheist conferences) are HORRIBLE PEOPLE who just think they can reach out and grab a woman at any moment:
Over the past several years, I've been groped, grabbed, touched in other nonconsensual ways, told I can expect to be raped, told I'm a whore, a slut, a bitch, a prude, a dyke, a cunt, a twat, told I should watch my back at conferences, told I'm too ugly to be raped, told I don't have a say in my own treatment because I've posed for sexy photos, told I should get a better headshot because that one doesn't convey how sexy I am in person, told I deserve to be raped - by skeptics and atheists. All by skeptics and atheists. Constantly.
"I should get a better headshot because that one doesn't convey how sexy I am in person." I would say "Thanks," not get my godless knickers in wad, and I guess I'm just not as hot as she is or I go to the wrong conferences because I'm also an atheist and people at conferences ask if I'm going to the 10:30 thing, not if I'd like a little rapey-rapey with my lunch.
Of course, I go to newspaper conferences and psychology and evolutionary psychology conferences. At the only atheist conference I've been to, the Atheists Alliance conference perhaps eight years ago, Ben Edward Akerley, who invited me, and who wore a darling lavender suit jacket, asked me if I'd like to sit next to him at lunch. I was deeply offended and immediately burst into tears, of course.
Last year's post that lit up my comments section -- and I'm sure, Watson's traffic -- was about a little experience she had in the elevator. My post on her post:
When Women Confuse Being Asked Out With Being Raped At Knifepoint In An Elevator
It's amazing how an atheist can so easily make being a feminist sound like a religion...
Only 649 comments on that post.
via @mpigliucci







Amy, after reading her post, which was very hard to get through, my first thought was how much respect I have for you. Just for starters, monitoring the comment section so asshats don't get through. I like that you let the asshats get through and that you will engage in intelligent debate with them. I hate to call it brave, but in a way, it is very brave. You don't only allow the kiss ass comments here.
I remember the elevator story and find it hard to believe that this woman gets harassed and threatened every single day of her existence. I won't minimize it to sex appeal because we all know rape is not about sex, but still. Is she crazy or is she kidding or is she just that needy for attention? Every day? Really?
Something tells me that this conference is giving a big WHEW! that she's skipping. I especially liked that he called her out on her comments which seem to throw her in such a frenzy. If you can't stand behind your words, don't write them. She said it was unsafe and he called her on it.
The End!
Kristen at June 4, 2012 6:23 AM
Yonder.
Crid at June 4, 2012 6:23 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2012/06/04/rebecca_watson.html#comment-3216958">comment from KristenThanks, Kristin -- that means a lot.
Amy Alkon
at June 4, 2012 6:55 AM
And here I thought she was talking about TSA employees...
I R A Darth Aggie at June 4, 2012 7:02 AM
Darn, Aggie beat me to it... I wonder if there's a specific psychological term for the complex in which a person believes that every single person on Earth, of the opposite/preferred sex, finds them irresistible. That's some serious narcissism there.
Cousin Dave at June 4, 2012 7:21 AM
Wow. Is it all ironic that I am skeptical of Skepchics assertions? I am guessing that she gets plenty of verbal abuse via her comments page, but that is the price you pay when decide to write a public blog. The world is a strange place full of weirdos who will use your blog to get out their greater frustrations at the world. My advice is don't take it personally. If you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen. This is what you get when you encourage the free exchange of ideas. A brief glance at her comments section suggests that she only allows her fan girls to post to her site. I am guessing that all critical comments get labeled sexist.
I have one other observation, I noticed that she spends a lot of time searching for harassers to throw out of conferences. Did you all see that part where she got a guy physically thrown out of a mixer because he "touched" a volunteer. She wants immediate and "harsh" penalties assigned to anyone who violates her code of ethics. She is friggin scarey! This person is not normal and there is more going on here than feminism run rampant.
Sheep mommy at June 4, 2012 7:37 AM
Cousin Dave, I've known a few such people, and they are all unremarkable looking. Every trip to the coffee shop turns into a tale of how they barely escaped unmolested. Everyone they ever rejected nearly killed themselves in grief. They catalog their "admirers" and talk about them constantly.
"Did you see those women gawking at me?"
No, I didn't. Because they weren't. You happened to be in their line of sight.
My friend J. thinks every man she's ever met is sexually obsessed with her. "He was so horny he couldn't stop fidgeting."
I worked with an aspiring actor who talked about how his good looks got in the way of him landing some meaty roles, because he was "too pretty." But he wasn't! At all!
I know another girl who thinks every woman at work is out to get her because of her looks. She isn't pretty!
Even movie stars can dress down and slip through Dunkin Donuts unnoticed now and then. These people see uncontrolled lust/jealousy in the eyes of everyone they meet.
Paging Samantha Brick...
Insufficient Poison at June 4, 2012 7:46 AM
Watson is a moron. She is a prime example of a trend I've noticed amoung far too many female athiests; feminism(usually radical gender feminism) is the new religion
And all who disagree are heretics, or bigots or sexists, or colluders who must be silenced at any cost no matter the fact being presented
And they go absolutly bat shit crazy if you reamin calm and polite, I set myself a new record this weekend as I got someone on facebook blocking me after just one response.
And what the hell happanded to feminists? Those chick used to take fire hoses, police beating and hunger strikes, and these days they cant even take insults or the occasional lewd comment from a drunk?
lujlp at June 4, 2012 8:35 AM
Of course all these lewd comments come from atheists and skeptics. Christians can couch their lewd suggestions in code.
"You have such a beautiful Christian spirit," translates into "I sooooo want into your pants."
"I love the Jesus in you," means "I want to fuck the Jesus right out of you."
(That comment is going to come back to haunt me, I'm sure.)
Of course, Christian code extends to other areas.
"I'll pray for you," when inserted at the end of any heated debate means, "FOAD."
Patrick at June 4, 2012 8:41 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2012/06/04/rebecca_watson.html#comment-3217121">comment from lujlpI got a few this weekend from a friend of a friend who was a little drunk: "Why...if you didn't have a boyfriend..." (and he made some more colorful remarks I can't recall).
My attitude: I'm 48. I'm relieved drunk men still find me hot.
Amy Alkon
at June 4, 2012 8:46 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2012/06/04/rebecca_watson.html#comment-3217128">comment from Amy AlkonPerhaps there's something wrong with me. Here's another one my panties remain unwadded about: http://storify.com/mashable/asus-s-sexist-twitter-gaffe
Amy Alkon
at June 4, 2012 8:49 AM
That didn't bother me either, but I think the detractors responded appropriately. They said they didn't like it and that they would not spend money with ASUS. That's how the free market is supposed to work.
Insufficient Poison at June 4, 2012 9:02 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2012/06/04/rebecca_watson.html#comment-3217155">comment from Insufficient PoisonPersonally, I like cheekiness in ads. You see it a lot in France, and they also have a lot more fun with their ads in general.
Amy Alkon
at June 4, 2012 9:07 AM
Doesn't matter what happened every other day of her life.
She gave a talk about not coming on to females who come to skeptic events.
And the doorknob from last year not only came onto her, but late at night in an empty elevator.
That makes him a predator. Don't care if his wittle fee fees are hurt. Don't care if the fee fees of the socially awkward are hurt.
I too have avoided skeptical conferences based on my treatment at sci fi cons and sca events.
She's not imagining a damn thing.
deathbysnoosnoo at June 4, 2012 9:17 AM
Also,
I don't generally throw this out there, but I was reading by the age of three. Reading at college level by the age of eight. Score off the scale on standardized tests and was in gifted classes.
And looked every bit the part.
Then I blossomed, and have been ostracized and not taken seriously ever since. It's especially infuriating when it's coming from the most ignorant, dogma spouting, aspbergery, living in momma's basement male. (Won't say man. Most of these people aren't men.)
And yeah, I won't do them. But what does whether or not I'm attracted to a guy have to do with whether or not I should be accepted in nerdly circles?
Seriously, now.
deathbysnoosnoo at June 4, 2012 9:25 AM
> a specific psychological term for the complex
> in which a person believes that every single
> person on Earth, of the opposite/preferred sex,
> finds them irresistible.
Cridmotosis.
Crid at June 4, 2012 9:25 AM
Also, let's admire DBS's useful coinage: Asbergery, with associated Mom-basement symptoms.
Crid [CridComent at Gmail] at June 4, 2012 9:41 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2012/06/04/rebecca_watson.html#comment-3217213">comment from Crid [CridComent at Gmail]Re: admire -- already was.
Fabulous.
Must copy in: "Asbergery, with associated Mom-basement symptoms."
Amy Alkon
at June 4, 2012 9:58 AM
Go with "Mom-basement symptom cluster" for maximal diagnostic bogosity.
Crid [CridComent at Gmail] at June 4, 2012 10:02 AM
DbSS, I did SCA for years and the Con circuit (sci fi, comics, gaming) as well--as a booth model some of the time--and I'm dumbfounded by what you've written. The men in these cultures practically revered women. Why wouldn't they? Women characters in fantasy/sci-fi are extremely competent and heroic, and are more so with every passing year.
I was accepted, fawned over, and sometimes given more credit than I was due, just because I was a pretty girl. Completely spoiled by so many respectful admirers. My girlfriends had a similar experience.
Internet culture and the spread of atheism have changed this scene so much that geeks now ostracize women for being hot??
Insufficient Poison at June 4, 2012 10:14 AM
Well, if she was groped, called names, and threatened with rape I can see why she doesn't want to go.
Personally I find guys at geek events to be over-the-top chivalrous and respectful... cheeky, yes, but in a tongue-in-cheek way. Because of the sexual banter environment, they tend to be extra careful about things like harassment, unwanted groping... no means no but there's a helluva lotta yes!
NicoleK at June 4, 2012 10:19 AM
I thought that was the purpose of events like conferences and gatherings are for, to make friend, meet contacts, meet Mr or Mister Right/Right Now. Hopefully people will have some decency and/or class. People keep it civilized.
So what I can gather is Skepchic is the person that ruins the fun for everybody and by being the party pooper has raised the ire of some people.
I would hate to work with her. Just think of the problems of inviting her with others out for a drink at the end of work. Would she be the tattler who feels uncomfortable if two coworkers hookup or form a relationship.
Remember time and place for everything people.
Work is for Work. Not for socializing.
School is for studying. Not for meeting friends.
Church (if believed in) is for worship. Not to form a community.
Conferences are for meeting people and exchanging ideas. Whoops hold on a minute. Umm Conferences are for people to sit down shut up and listen to speaker. If you talk, it will be on TOPIC.
John Paulson at June 4, 2012 10:23 AM
DBSS,
Did it ever dawn on you that perhaps you are putting out a rather unfriendly vibe?
First of all you state that you don’t care if socially awkward people get their feelings hurt. This type of attitude will not bode well for making new friends in an environment with an abundance of socially awkward people OR socially adept people with socially awkward friends.
Then you go on to brag about how smart you are as if being incredibly intelligent is the manner by which men select their friendships. Here is some news for you, most men would rather have an average intelligence friend who is loyal and cares about them over a genius who will write them off the moment they make a mistake.
You seem to really regard these people with disdain and then wonder why they don’t all flock to you with friendly intentions.
My guess is that the nice ones avoid the vibes you are putting out which leaves you only with jerks who don’t care about your negative vibes and the astoundingly socially awkward who are essentially blind to those negative vibes.
In my opinion you’ve generated a self fulfilling prophecy.
Kara at June 4, 2012 10:35 AM
Re: admire -- already was.
Fabulous.
Must copy in: "Asbergery, with associated Mom-basement symptoms."
Posted by: Amy Alkon Author Profile Page at June 4, 2012 9:58 AM
___________________________
OK, so it's never going to be a real word anyway, but still, it should be "Aspergery."
lenona at June 4, 2012 10:40 AM
Exceptional intelligence is not exceptional in geek culture. "Reading at an early age," "labeled gifted," and "high standardized test scores" applies to most of my friends and probably most of the people commenting here.
Insufficient Poison at June 4, 2012 10:43 AM
I must respectfully disagree with you on this one, my friend, but I'll save the whys and wherefores for a blog post.
Ken at June 4, 2012 10:50 AM
Just. Can't. Finish. Reading it.
"Brevity is the soul of wit."
Watson remains witless.
snakeman99 at June 4, 2012 11:11 AM
Based on my rough math and Wikipedia, male atheists outnumber female atheists nearly 2 to 1 (19% to 12%). I her efforts resulted in 40% of the attendants and 50% of the speakers being women, then they were over-represented.
Goo at June 4, 2012 11:53 AM
Doesn't matter what happened every other day of her life.
Does when she says it happens "all the time"
She gave a talk about not coming on to females who come to skeptic events.
Lord forbid the guys hit on women they know share their values
And the doorknob from last year not only came onto her, but late at night in an empty elevator.
Noone said it wass the same guy who hit on her the year before, no one ever came forward with proof that he even heard her talk. And I can make the argument that if you dont want to be hit on in an elevator alone dont go out of your way to mention the fact that you'll be alone in an elevator after partying in a bar for 5hrs
That makes him a predator. Don't care if his wittle fee fees are hurt. Don't care if the fee fees of the socially awkward are hurt.
Acctually it makes him a gguy who asked a person who talks for a living if they wanted to talk
I too have avoided skeptical conferences based on my treatment at sci fi cons and sca events.
So you deny yourself fun experiances to avoid a few crude comments and the possibility someone might find you sexually attractive?
She's not imagining a damn thing.
No, she isnt, but she is blowing it out of proportion
Also. . . Then I blossomed, and have been ostracized and not taken seriously ever since.
got pics?
It's especially infuriating when it's coming from the most ignorant, dogma spouting, aspbergery, living in momma's basement male. (Won't say man. Most of these people aren't men.)
And I resent the fact that having grown up in Utah people assume I'm a religious fundmentalist with child brides. I also resent the fact that I dont look as good as I did before I had half a lung hacked out. Lifes full of resentments
And yeah, I won't do them. But what does whether or not I'm attracted to a guy have to do with whether or not I should be accepted in nerdly circles?
I think you're hanging out with the wrong type of nerds
Seriously though, pics
lujlp at June 4, 2012 12:17 PM
She wanders around with the name "Death by snu snu" and complains geeks want to know if she's sexually available....
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=snu%20snu
Also, pics.
jerry at June 4, 2012 1:04 PM
"That didn't bother me either, but I think the detractors responded appropriately. They said they didn't like it and that they would not spend money with ASUS. That's how the free market is supposed to work.
Posted by: Insufficient Poison at June 4, 2012 9:02"
There's definitely a role for consumer boycotts, but I'm not sure where a twitter flash mob bully session over an admiration of a women's ass really fits in with clubbing harbor seals, killing dolphins, dumping formula into 3rd worlds, refusing to ride the segregated buses, etc.
jerry at June 4, 2012 1:12 PM
Watson will eventually welcome the burka. And she'll call it Freedom.
Meanwhile, Death-by-Snu-Snu, what are you wearing?
Storm Saxon's Gall Bladder at June 4, 2012 1:37 PM
Long before Futurama, there was a "Snoo snoo or death" joke that involved a cannibal chief giving his victim that choice. Snoo snoo is a horrible torture as described by joke teller. It isn't necessarily sexual. The victim chooses death, and the chief says, "OK, death. But first snoo snoo."
Futurama was playing on that joke.
I don't get your point about the boycott. If you don't like the way someone does business, you communicate that and you don't give them your money. It can be for any reason. Maybe they have poor customer service. Maybe they don't use the ketchup you like. You vote with your dollars. If your point is that commenting on a booth model isn't the exact same thing as dumping toxic waste overseas...uh, good point?
No one "bullied" anybody. That has to be the most overloaded word in our language right now.
Insufficient Poison at June 4, 2012 1:48 PM
"Futurama was playing on that joke."
You're probably right.
Death By Snoo Snoo, are you playing on Futurama's reference or the old joke?
"If you don't like the way someone does business, you communicate that and you don't give them your money. It can be for any reason. Maybe they have poor customer service. Maybe they don't use the ketchup you like. You vote with your dollars. If your point is that commenting on a booth model isn't the exact same thing as dumping toxic waste overseas...uh, good point?"
I'm saying social media makes mountains out of molehills.
I've seen these waves of Poutrage flow across Digg, and Reddit, and FARK, and Hacker News, and through conservative or liberal blogs and take minor events and blow them far out of proportion.
Corinne Marasco chooses to take her $ elsewhere other than ASUS not because they are too expensive, or sell crappy products, or because they are clubbing seals, but because one guy at one conference tweeted a girls butt.'
I can only hope Ms. Marasco, when she opens a business has the favor returned to her.
In the meantime, we all have to live in a more dreary, more politically correct world -- not because ASUS was actually doing anything wrong, but because some representative of theirs was a momentary idiot.
And as others point out, if this had been a woman tweeting a picture of a guy's butt, or a picture from the other side saying, "nice package" referring to either a man or the ASUS board, we would never hear a thing about it.
http://songwroter.com/igod/ThisIsAnOutrage2.jpg
jerry at June 4, 2012 2:08 PM
These lying crazies need to read up on Narcissistic Personality Disorder. EVERYTHING is about them; even stuff that couldn't possibly be about them is about them.
Someone brushes them in a corridor, it was a game of grab-ass. A man holds open a door, he's hitting on her. A man asked, "will you come to the party" and she thinks he's using sexual innuendo.
Incidentally, one of the more delusional things mostly women, but some men, do is say that nobody is talking to them because they are "too attractive."
Joe at June 4, 2012 2:15 PM
Ok I read some of her article, so far we have 2 women Amy and her who went to different athiest/skeptics conferences and claim to have had very different experiences. Ok fine, she had a bad experience and most likely blew it very out of proportion. To me though the percentage women speakers going from 20 to 40 then back to about 20, tells me there may be something to it. One person badmouthing the convention can have an effect, but halving half the women not showing up the next year based on the say of one who is probably exagerating is a bit tougher to swallow.
I don't know never been to one, anyone else here ever been to one.
As to the other stuff, I've been to many sca events and scifi cons. yep there are some socially blind people, especiall at the cons, and every group has some jerks. The sca has it's own social rules and mores. But the main complaint I've usually heard was Insufficient Poisons ones, men fauning over them, bending over backwards for women.
Add to that, that I'd guess at any time most sca women were armed with knives and some of those really know how to use them.
Joe J at June 4, 2012 2:36 PM
Right now the ASUS tweet has hit (on twitter)
Twitter:
Daring Fireball
Android Police
Ars Technica
Engadget
Gizmodo
Anil Dash
Techmeme
Storify:
mashable
Google also tells me it's on
Huffington Post
Yahoo News
MacRumors
techinvestornews
geeksandtweaks
advancingwomen.com
network world
topsy
digg
msn
india times
businessinsider
So no, I am not sure bullied is the most overloaded word right now.
jerry at June 4, 2012 2:40 PM
jezebel
forbes
sky news
jerry at June 4, 2012 2:44 PM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2012/06/04/rebecca_watson.html#comment-3217677">comment from Joe JI'll also add that a researcher or university something or other wrote a blog post claiming that men followed her around Austin grabbing and groping her or something like that. I felt so sorry for her -- because her claim seemed so unlikely -- that I never posted it.
I'm not the hottest thing in human skin but I do the best with what I have, and back in my NYC days, I'd been known to wear tight clothing and take some risks, but in about 12 years, I got grabbed exactly once on the street, by some jerk who followed me out of a gallery opening. Claims of multiple gropings? Near-constant gropings? Nobody can know what the truth is except the person who claims to be telling it, but... Really? Really?
Amy Alkon
at June 4, 2012 3:22 PM
If she was groped a second time at the same convention, and didn't want it, she obviously didn't hit the first guy in the groin hard enough.
This is the reason men don't go around groping girls without permission.
Cat at June 4, 2012 4:45 PM
"In America, a woman is groped every 15 seconds.
Let's go live to our man on the street and meet that woman."
"Hi, Phil, I'm here with Rebecca Watson...."
Conan the Grammarian at June 4, 2012 4:49 PM
I'm not big on blaming the victim, however when faced with extraordinary claims it is appropriate to ask for evidence. This womans' claims sound atypical for a first world society. It sounds like there is some kind of war going on between this woman and the whole world.
Upon consideration, I don't care enough about her to try and root out the truth...
kenmce at June 4, 2012 4:50 PM
Raise your hand and sound your name if, as you move through your daily life, you consider the manner in which you are touched by other people with respect to whether or not it's "nonconsensual," favoring that (young) legalism specifically.
Ok, if you raised your hand, everyone's going to assume that you're incapable of achieving orgasm in a room with more than zero other people.
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at June 4, 2012 6:29 PM
I want to go on the record as stating that I believe that all women do admire Crid and want him on some sort of level. Its because of terms like Cridmotosis that women find him so sexy!
Kristen at June 4, 2012 7:28 PM
I've seen Ms. Watson at DragonCon. I wonder what the difference is, demographically, between that and TAM.
The Tell: "People are terrible."
Radwaste at June 4, 2012 7:35 PM
DbSS, I did SCA for years and the Con circuit (sci fi, comics, gaming) as well--as a booth model some of the time--and I'm dumbfounded by what you've written. The men in these cultures practically revered women. Why wouldn't they? Women characters in fantasy/sci-fi are extremely competent and heroic, and are more so with every passing year.
Insufficient Poison, I too am a longtime Scadian, and gamer convention Booth Bunny. I went to Pennsic War for years when I was living in the Debateable Lands :D Every single one of those days was filled with enough chivalrous (and no-so) flirtation, my ego had to ride home in a seperate car. I especially loved the "Men Without Pants" Party ;) 'cause once you go Kilt, you never go back.
The women who carped were the ones who walked around with a corncob up their arses, snapping and foaming and whining about how miserable they were until no one, not even the drunkest Tuchuk, would even glance their way. And then they would go on about how terribly jealous the rest of us must be of their exceptional 'period' beauty :P Mud is period, and so's the plague, I don't envy those, either.
Con's are great, I do steampunk now with my hubby, and it's great to still be able to hang out with people and dress up and get your picture snapped as you walk around. If you smile, and are gracious to people, you get to meet the most interesting, funny, witty, charming folks. If you are a jerk, you will hear people telling everyone else about what a big jerk you are halfway across the exhibition hall :P
It's funny that this chicks name is Rebecca, the problem child I had to deal with was also named Rebecca. I guess some names are just cursed....
Kat at June 4, 2012 7:38 PM
Oh, and for several years I went dancing, by myself, at a club in Pittsburgh called Club Laga, on their Goth night. I would wear various goth outfits, some short skirts, some long, usually bare shoulders, heavy makeup and hair all done up (Goth, duh). I knew just about everyone who worked there and hung out there, but I went to dance, it was my way of working out. I got groped once, when I was taking a breather over by the couches. I grabbed the guy and flipped him over the couch onto his back and said "Never again." He got the message, and so did the rest of the club.
Another time, after my eldest started going to concerts there, she got hassled by someone, hauled off and kicked him in the nads with her 20-eye Doc Martins. She had a slight bruise on her arm, but he was on the ground for at least 10 min till the bouncer came by and threw him out for me.
Ladies are never a victim unless they let themselves be used as such. We are calm, cool, and graceful under stressful conditions, and can discern true threats from harmless flirting. Just because a guy looks at us does not mean an attack is imminent, any more than my buying a lottery ticket means that I am now RICH! RICH! FABULOUSLY WEALTHY!
Bottom line, trust your gut. If your intuition says "Scram" do so, quickly.
If the crazy in your head tells you that everybody wants you, talk to a professional, 'cause they make pills for that.
Learn the difference, because wrongfully accusing a guy of a sexual crime is about the shittiest thing you can do, because of the way things go nowadays. You will ruin lives, and no matter how much that guy is vindicated later, you will never be able to restore his good name and position in society.
Honestly, if I were a guy, and I were being introduced to this Rebecca Watson person for the first time, I would put my hands in the air and sloooooowly back away, while chanting "Please do not come near me, do not touch me, I do not want anything to do with you." And then I would RUN.
Kat at June 4, 2012 7:59 PM
> and want him on some sort of level.
Oh dear Angel... At last, someone who recognizes the gray, the deafness and the hot-air crankitude of middle age as refinement....
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at June 4, 2012 8:03 PM
I did a lot of partying in college here. Lots of parking under the bridge and getting to said car alone. Lots of going to sketchy places and parties where someone knew someone, and after parties with bar owners (2 of whom I partied with a lot are in the news recently.) The only time I ever had my hackles up was around the well-dressed, urbane friend of my roomie. I was around him a few times, and went to great lengths not to be near him alone. I had no doubt he meant me harm.
Listen to your inner voice, it's wired to alert you to danger.
momof4 at June 4, 2012 8:56 PM
To me though the percentage women speakers going from 20 to 40 then back to about 20, tells me there may be something to it.
The only thing it signifys to me is the grant money they use to pay women to show up wanst as pleniful the next year.
My bet is the guys who donated money to finace women showing up got tired of being told what assholes they were and decided to allow women the privilage of paying for their own damn plane tickets and hotel rooms
lujlp at June 4, 2012 9:13 PM
Relative to this particular context
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at June 4, 2012 10:37 PM
I used to get groped a lot, so I'll buy it. Not always even in a sexual way. People would grab my boobs... men, women, gay guys. Most of the times I was showing lots of cleavage. I have an open vibe in general, people tend to open up to me, so I must have seemed friendly to boob-grabbing.
It usually happened at goth clubs or events like Halloween in the Castro, or Arisia, where people are very outré anyways. You know, they're always playfully flogging each other's butts and things. I didn't mind much, I knew they were just being goofy and dramatic and cheesy. It was a conversation starter.
I'm more closed now, and no longer run about corseted and cleavagey, and do not give out such an open vibe anymore.
Anyhow, my point is, maybe she is getting groped a lot. But maybe it is harmless goofy groping and she is misinterpreting it. Seems more likely given the way people behave at these things. If she is clear about not wanting it, people will probably respect that. Of course, if they don't...
NicoleK at June 4, 2012 11:37 PM
"DbSS, I did SCA for years and the Con circuit--and I'm dumbfounded by what you've written. The men in these cultures practically revered women."
This. From the male side, I was also in these circles (mainly in the 1980s, if that matters). The male/female ratio was, um, not ideal, and of the few women, to many were...less than desirable. If you found an intelligent, attractive woman who was actually into the fantasy and/or sci-fi world - wow, she was a keeper.
Certainly there were a few drunken boors. And an attractive woman running around in a fur loincloth or a metal brassiere will have attracted wolf-whistles. I don't recall *any* cases of any woman being offended, much less assaulted. Some male geeks made awkward, unwanted advances; these were were handled with as much or as little tact as anywhere else.
Where dbSS is possibly right: while she was a smart "ugly duckling", she will have been treated differently. After she turned into a swan, more guys will have hit on her purely for her looks, with no knowledge of her brains. That's reality. You can take it as a compliment, or you can get all stuffy and offended by it.
Now, maybe the "skeptical" conferences are a different matter. I do not see the need to visit conferences like this - they seem to me places for people either insecure in what they believe, or else looking for a confrontation. Reading between the lines, it is possible that she is the confrontational one; having offended people, she was then offended by their responses. Dunno, but the story as she tells it is definitely leaving something out...
a_random_guy at June 5, 2012 12:00 AM
About DragonCon in particular: the most fantastic and revealing costumes draw stares, yes, but murmurs of awe. The host venues are probably the safest place in the country for amazing women to walk around as fantasy characters. There is only a total nudity ban - paint is OK, as is the most minimal thing you can imagine from any graphic novel. The staff, as you might expect of capital-city major hotels with diplomatic accommodations, is discreet but alert to anything serious in the way of assault, and of course if you want to play I am sure there are thousands of like mind in attendance.
So there are many factors conspiring against anyone persisting in unwanted sexual advances.
There is a thread about Rebecca's latest on the JREF Forums, as you might guess, and there seems to be a "Wait. What?" going on there. TL;DR most of it.
Radwaste at June 5, 2012 2:24 AM
"I want to go on the record as stating that I believe that all women do admire Crid and want him on some sort of level. Its because of terms like Cridmotosis that women find him so sexy!"
Second.
Also "second" the con observation. Ladies walk around in costumes more revealing than anything you'd find in a Halloween store. An unwanted groping would bring down the wrath of a hundred geeks in the immediate vicinity.
Insufficient Poison at June 5, 2012 4:10 AM
I feel kind of sorry for her. Mostly because she is a overly dramatic PITA with no sense of scope.
She is exactly the type of personality I will not have for a friend. They are too draining. Drama is an energy vampire and I refuse to feed it.
LauraGr at June 5, 2012 6:26 AM
"About DragonCon in particular: the most fantastic and revealing costumes draw stares, yes, but murmurs of awe. The host venues are probably the safest place in the country for amazing women to walk around as fantasy characters."
I'd second that, but with one addendum, D*C often shares the hotel with football fans for that weekends game. I've heard of a few incidents with them, but they are not part of the con.
Joe J at June 5, 2012 7:15 AM
Stay tuned to this space for any important announcement later this evening.
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at June 5, 2012 9:47 AM
Crid: You asked Skepchick for a date?
Unix-Jedi at June 5, 2012 10:23 AM
Eunuchs has ruined the surprise: She's agreed to be my bride.
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at June 5, 2012 10:53 AM
Isn't Rebecca Watson that woman who went off about the dude asking her up to his room for "coffee" in the elevator? And then her video didn't make her out to be very attractive, so maybe the dude was literally asking her to join him for coffee, heh-heh?
mpetrie98 at June 5, 2012 11:07 AM
Yes, deathbysnoosnoo, I thought geeks would simply put up posters of hot women in their rooms, not ostracize them. But why are you so concerned about being ostracized by them, when you seem to be dripping with contempt for them ("Aspergery" "Mommy's basement" etc.)?
If they don't want you, just say fuhgedaboudit and find new friends, which I'm sure you've already done, no doubt.
mpetrie98 at June 5, 2012 11:18 AM
Joe J: Because of crowding, the host hotels now require a hotel key or D*C badge to enter the premises on Labor Day weekend.
I saw the end of one confrontation in 2009. Those porters aren't all little old guys. Offender was put out instantly, cabbie screeched up, bad guy jammed in, to be deposited semi-conscious under the bridge nearby with the bums.
Radwaste at June 6, 2012 2:43 AM
Men "sexualize" women. Ladies, they want to have sex with you, your sister, your sister's friend, your sister's friend's friend, the cashier, the waitress, the lady with the big luscious ass who's crossing the street, and her sister and her sister's friend. If men weren't like this, the planet would be filled with plants and cockroaches instead of human beings.
If it is troubling to you to be sexualized, stay home, or only leave the house in a big black burka.
Precisely. But why can't young women of today just enjoy the sexual/sensual aspect of their nature? Imagine Marilyn Monroe had been born today, and went around blogging about how 'uncomfortable' it made her feel to be 'sexualized' and 'objectified'. There is something toxic that has seeped into the culture.
Watson will eventually welcome the burka. And she'll call it Freedom.
Indeed. But ironically, I've met (and dated, briefly) sexier, more comfortable-with-themselves-and-their-sexiness Muslim women - no joke.
Meanwhile, Death-by-Snu-Snu, what are you wearing?
Unfortunately this behavior by the likes of Rebecca encourages this sort of (understandable) over-reaction - it just makes you want to say things like this. But in reality, falling into the trap makes you part of the vicious cycle of over-objectification/over-reaction and the underlying desexualization of the female persona.
Lobster at June 7, 2012 4:56 PM
Actually I hope Rebecca continues on like this, because frankly, I hope she doesn't breed - it's probably best for the world.
That makes him a predator. Don't care if his wittle fee fees are hurt. Don't care if the fee fees of the socially awkward are hurt.
If a woman really honestly thinks a man is a predator, she wouldn't remotely be provoking him by making deriding comments about his 'wittle fee fees being hurt' ... if you're so unafraid of someone that you would mock their 'fee fees' and call them 'socially awkward', then you don't in any way remotely consider them a predator, and are actually just being a bully, and pretending to have the moral high ground while simultaneously pretending to be a victim of something that other women have genuinely been victims of, is morally vile on so many levels. I've seen cases of a woman being actually-threatened by an actually-dangerous man, it's a scary thing - you usually do anything you can to avoid provoking them.
Lobster at June 7, 2012 5:26 PM
My friend J. thinks every man she's ever met is sexually obsessed with her.
I had an ex-gf's like that. She was actually hot, but she was also actually schizophrenic.
Lobster at June 7, 2012 5:34 PM
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