The Pakistan Of The Midwest
Detroit -- formerly "the Paris of the Midwest":
Remember when immigrants were expected to assimilate? What happened?
The Pakistan Of The Midwest
Detroit -- formerly "the Paris of the Midwest":
Remember when immigrants were expected to assimilate? What happened?
Well, maybe it's even more like Paris nowadays... The city of like is said to get a disproportionate share of hillbilly Middle Easterners while I America scoops the foaming genius off the top.
Relevant Balko tweet.
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at June 14, 2012 11:42 PM
I've always wondered how much assimilating was actually done. I do have my great-grandfather's immigration paperwork where he swore to be a good citizen and that he wasn't a polygamist. But on the other hand, when my family moved to Pittsburgh my mother was repeatedly asked "who are your people?" It's a city with a Polish Hill and Deutschtown as well as Jewish, Italian, Lithuanian, Czech, Irish, and Greek neighborhoods. Until recently there wasn't much mixing of the neighborhoods. Heck, my great-grandad moved to Iowa, which has a lot of Dutch heritage. On the other side of my family it was a huge scandal when my English grandad married a Czech lady.
I've just always wondered if it was one of those "remember the good old days" stories that didn't *quite* mesh up with the reality of the old days.
Elle at June 14, 2012 11:43 PM
There's always been signage in other languages as long as I've been around... think about the Chinatowns that a lot of cities have, for example. Businesses catering to a specific ethnic group tend to write in the native language of that group.
You want to worry about midwestern middle easterners, look at Dearborn.
NicoleK at June 14, 2012 11:52 PM
The arabic on signs bothers you more than the bi-lingual (English/Chinese) signs all over the airport?
DrCos at June 15, 2012 2:57 AM
Yes, it does.
MarkD at June 15, 2012 4:55 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2012/06/15/the_pakistan_of.html#comment-3231768">comment from DrCosAn airport is a place where people of many nationalities pass through, and I don't see Chinese, Japanese, at LAX, though having things in foreign languages there makes sense and isn't about citizens not being expected to assimilate. I'm also bothered by the "press one for Spanish" and our scummy mayor Villaraigosa talking in Spanish for an extended period of time on the 311 system.
Amy Alkon at June 15, 2012 5:44 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2012/06/15/the_pakistan_of.html#comment-3231771">comment from Amy AlkonWhen my great grandparents moved to Detroit, they learned English as quickly as possible, and it was looked down upon to not assimilate.
Amy Alkon at June 15, 2012 5:46 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2012/06/15/the_pakistan_of.html#comment-3231773">comment from DrCosThe arabic on signs bothers you more than the bi-lingual (English/Chinese) signs all over the airport?
Also, the Chinese don't have a religion that demands they mass murder the non-believers, apostates, and gays, and you don't see Chinese people banding together to fly aircraft into buildings. Arabic reminds me that I used to walk through the World Trade Center to get home when I lived in NYC (about five blocks from there) -- a building site which is now a mass grave.
Amy Alkon at June 15, 2012 5:52 AM
I remember when daughter #1 was still a baby (18 years ago), and I had gone out for the evening with some friends. On the way home, I stopped at the highway rest stop to get a cup of coffee, and there was a bunch of people there, getting McDonald's after their night out, and ALL of them were speaking spanish, so I asked one of them, "si ustedes viven in los Estados Unidos, porque no hablan in englaise?" (If you live in the United States, why don't you speak in English?) Well the one guy looked at me as if I had 3 heads; he obviously didn't expect this little white bread bitch to be able to speak their language, much less understand what they were saying, and he told me it was because they "didn't want to lose [their] roots." So I said, okay, but do you not realize that when you're out in public and not speaking the language of the place you live, that some people will think you're being rude? And he looked at me and said, "we don't care." So I said okay, well thanks for clearing that up, and left. But as I was leaving, I heard someone ask him what we were talking about and he just laughed and said I was a crazy white bitch. In English. Because he knew I would hear him.
So that leads me to conclude, if they don't give a shit, why should we cater to them?
Flynne at June 15, 2012 5:56 AM
Flynne, listening to other people's normal-voiced conversations and giving them shit about their use of a foreign language is much more rude than daring to speak said foreign language to your friends/family. To insert yourself into a conversation that didn't include you, wasn't about you (unless you mean that the people were saying lewd things about you in Spanish, getting a kick out of the fact that you couldn't understand, so they thought) was incredibly rude. You were acting like a crazy bitch, of whatever color you are.
I used to go back and forth between Cuidad Juarez and El Paso all the time and here's the rule---speak Spanish to strangers in Juarez, English to strangers in El Paso and to your friends/family, speak the language that all or most present (in YOUR OWN party, not the entire restaurant) are comfortable in, no matter where you are. Same thing Europeans who speak multiple languages and travel to many countries are taught. Speak to the waiter in the country's language, using a spokesperson if need be, but (as long as you are not talking ABOUT people, not in your group but in your earshot which you shouldn't do in any language) talk to your company in whichever language you like.
Nobody is asking you to 'cater' to them by staying the hell out of their Spanish/French/Arabic or English (if you're in Paris or wherever) conversations. People who demand road signs or government documents in other languages are a completely different story. I don't care for my kids' school stuff being sent home in Spanish and told them so, but damn if i'm going to worry about whether the person at the next table speaks Spanish, English or Japanese (as long as we all keep the voices reasonable, and don't talk about STDs and such at high volumes).
Jenny Had A Chance at June 15, 2012 6:34 AM
Eh, I speak French or English depending on who I'm with, and whether or not I'm in public is not an issue.
It's more rude to speak it in private if you're with non-speakers than out in public.
NicoleK at June 15, 2012 6:53 AM
Well, Jenny, now that you mention it, one of the girls HAD said something rude about me, and they were loud (it was 2 a.m.), but when I asked the one guy my question, it was because he was standing right next to me, and I saw it as an opportunity to point out that just because I didn't look or act like one of them, didn't mean I couldn't understand what they were saying. My father's people came from Germany, and no one ever put signs up for them. And I am more than happy to speak the language of whatever country I'm in if I know it. By 'cater', though, I meant making things easy for them when things were not made easy for others who don't speak the language. Some companies even have spanish on their store coupons now (P&G, for one). I just find their attitudes can be somewhat condescending and it bothers me; sorry if I offended you.
Flynne at June 15, 2012 6:59 AM
Assimilation takes a few generations. My great-grandmother never learned to speak English when she came over. My grandmother spoke mostly Italian with enough English to get by (she was also born in Italy but came to the US at 16). My mother spoke mostly English with enough Italian to make herself understood to her relatives. I speak no Italian at all except for some colorful cursing.
MonicaP at June 15, 2012 7:37 AM
I've just always wondered if it was one of those "remember the good old days" stories that didn't *quite* mesh up with the reality of the old days.
I think so. Although they are all dead now, when I was growing up, I had older Italian and German relatives. Most of them did NOT speak English and did not want to.
One of my great grannies was (in)famous in our city for flying the German flag during WWI. She also expected her daughter-in-law (my grandma) to learn German to communicate with her. As for my other great grandmother, she's the reason I learned German as young as I did and can speak it without much of an American accent. My great aunt (Italian) expected her kids to translate for her EVERYWHERE. And her husband opened up a flower shop and conducted business in Italian (at that time in our city, that actually helped his business).
So, if there was a time when ALL immigrants assimilated by learning and using English, I haven't heard of it.
sofar at June 15, 2012 8:12 AM
A few years ago, a woman at work (a hospital) was complaining about a group of people talking in their own language. She said they should be learning the language of the country.
I asked her why she wasn't speaking Cree or Ojibwe.
Steamer at June 15, 2012 8:25 AM
I saw it as an opportunity to point out that just because I didn't look or act like one of them, didn't mean I couldn't understand what they were saying.
Shocking people who are talking about me in another language by suddenly addressing them in "their" language is one of my favorite activities. My friend always tries to rope me into speaking German with her about other people around us, so she can mock them, and I refuse because I'm not so dumb as to assume they don't know German as well.
However, I still don't get why people get so bent out of shape when people have conversations in other languages around them. Another friend told me some teens speaking Spanish the next table over at a diner in Austin made her uncomfortable. I told her to get over herself and reminded her that, when we took the cruise to Mexico, we spoke in English to each other when we went out to restaurants.
sofar at June 15, 2012 8:31 AM
Ah, Flynne, that does make a difference. Thanks for clarifying. People who use their foreign language skills to talk smack about people right in front of them are definitely asses.
I'm still a little touchy about being lumped in with "them". It's one thing to say English should be the official language, we shouldn't take the trouble and expense to print everything up in multiple languages. It's something else to say the "they don't care, so why should we" based on individuals' behaviors. I hate to think that people who hear me speak Spanish to my grandma (who could speak English, but it got harder and harder as she got older) lump me in with people who demand all kinds of other crap (I also find the assumption that if I'm hispanic I must be too dumb to learn the language here condescending) The argument against multi-lingual signs stands on its own without resorting to us & them anecdotes---"this one time 18 years ago, some Spanish speakers were rude" is kind of that.
Jenny Had A Chance at June 15, 2012 8:57 AM
I have worked with numerous engineering or academic immigrants and am the grandson of immigrants. For most immigrants, the story has been the same for decades. The first generation of immigrants speak English with varying skill level. The 2nd generation (born in the US) speak perfect English with no accent and probably speak the language of their parents. The 3rd generation generally speak only English.
The only people who typically speak English poorly are the parents of the immigrants join their children. I have also seen the wives of engineers, professors and students with limited English skills.
Curtis at June 15, 2012 9:19 AM
It has never bothered me to have people speaking another language when they are obviously having a private conversation, such as at a restaurant.
What does bother me is when someone expects a company to have a translator. I temped for a while as a customer service rep at a call center, and out of 14 working there, at least once a day, one of us would get a call asking for a translator, or someone who spoke the callers native language. It wasn't always Spanish, either, although that was the most common. There was a few Asian families, a lot of Somali/Arabic calls, and one woman who regularly called in and knew enough broken English to demand someone who spoke Russian.
The other thing that has upset me recently is sales associates who either don't speak English, or refuse to speak it to help customers. More than once, I've asked for help finding something,
and the woman has to get someone else to help me.
If an immigrant doesn't want to learn English, that's fine with me. They can have their children or grandchildren translate, and I'm sure there are places, like Chinatown, where they can shop in their native language. They shouldn't expect to be catered to, however.
Jazzhands at June 15, 2012 9:41 AM
I was always rather envious of friends who came from diverse backgrounds and spoke multiple languages. One gal I knew in high school was fluent in English, Welsh, and a third, I think it was Gaelic.
I dated a guy who was US born, but his father and family had immigrated from Sicily. He didn't speak Sicilian but most of his family did. At family functions, the aunts would scold their husbands if they slipped into their native tongue, as they felt it was rude to exclude those of us who only spoke English. And god how I miss the food.
Another guy I dated was English-only hispanic, but I don't recall if his parents or grandparents immigrated from Mexico. His mother and sisters despised me, so I never really become immersed into their family culture. They all spoke English and Spanish, with the exception of a few elders, who only spoke Spanish with very limited English.
I encounter lots of cultural diversity in my line of work, so interpreters are pretty common. It's always a bit frustrating, though, to watch how quickly a claimant's English skills disintegrate once they retain a lawyer.
Meloni at June 15, 2012 10:32 AM
My comment about the airport was referring specifically to Detroit airport. Last time I was through there I didn't know from the signs whether I was in America or China.
And I have as much problem with the 'religion of peace' as anyone here.
DrCos at June 15, 2012 1:18 PM
I made the mistake once of trying to use the wee bit of Spanish I know on my compan's diversity person, at an Hispanic function she ran (she is Hispanic). She looked at me and sai, "I don't speak Spanish.". Wake-up call!
Mr Teflon at June 15, 2012 8:55 PM
I once stayed at the Oriental in Bangkok and had a moment of miscommunication with a bellboy. Being from L.A., I reflexively tried to pull things together by chattering in broken Spanish. The look of wonderment and disgust on his face will haunt me all of my days.
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at June 16, 2012 12:07 AM
It kind of pisses me off that English speakers are expected to be able to accommodate all kinds of variations on broken English from people who are not native English speakers. Yet, in a lot of other countries, English speakers who make a honest effort at the native language are mocked and sneered at because the don't do it perfectly. When I was in Paris, I had several episodes where I went into a shop or restaurant, tried to speak French, and had the proprietor speak English back at me as a way of letting me know that they found my French unacceptable. The one exception to this rule that I've noted is Russians. They are always pleased to find an English speaker who knows any of their language.
Cousin Dave at June 16, 2012 9:50 AM
I work in a predominantly Filipino environment, skilled nursing . I would say 80% of the staff are Filipino and the rest a hodgepodge of everything else including me, I'm an immigrant too. I did not enter the US until the age of 21 yet I made it a point to learn how to communicate because I was missing out on a lot. I read books in English and befriended people because I wanted to learn. My school English was not enough.
My co-workers however only speak rudimentary English even though ( correct me if I'm wrong) supposedly English is the official language of the Philippines.
Even our supervisory staff are so lacking in English that they would all fail a 4th grade spelling assignment. I once was given a skills test by our Director of staff development that was written so poorly I had to read it with a Tagalog accent in order to even understand the questions.
Yet Management sees no problem with this. I see official signs posted in the hallways that make me cringe because it makes us all look stupid ( I think) when every other word is misspelled. We were even instructed during a seminar on diversity that if our co-workers wanted to speak a foreign language at work they have a right to do so. Just not in front of the patients. Which they do all the time anyway. I have even attended shift reports given in Tagalog. This in a facility that is not private by the way. It's operated by the county in which I live.
What I have noticed about these people also is none of them have any intentions of staying here in the US. They all are putting in hours so they can go back to the Islands and live like kings, they say. They live in ethnic neighborhoods, marry and socialize only with each other and in 20 years in this business I have been invited to exactly one (1) private home of my co-workers. I get along just fine with everybody by the way. I love my job and I like pot lucks too :).
What does concern me is I'm always treated with a bit of "standoffishness" as long as they think I'm American because I don't have an accent. When they find out I'm an immigrant just like them I'm usually accepted and included. True!
There are a few cliques like that among the other ethnic groups as well but the Filipinos are the majority and therefore are more noticeable. Hiring and promotions are much affected as well as the distribution of over time shifts and favorable assignments. Clique members weather an accusation of misconduct without a blemish while others get fired instantly for lesser issues. It's like a microcosm of the country at large. It's who you know and what you are not what you know. So it goes...
Liz at June 16, 2012 12:00 PM
> I did not enter the US until the age of 21 yet
> I made it a point to learn how to communicate
> because I was missing out on a lot. I read
> books in English and befriended people because
> I wanted to learn.
Are you married?
OK, can I date your Mom?
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at June 19, 2012 8:37 PM
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