Lest someone wonder about the "dead or alive" provision of the bill, think a minute. If it were possible to escape prosecution for possessing live eagles by killing them, then dead they would be, and right away. All of them, for their feathers.

This will be overturned in tax court. The estate will, however, be out its legal fees.

Even "loser pays" will not protect us from an over large and intrusive government. The IRS administrators should be penalized, personally and monetarily, for such egregious actions.

By the terms of the law, hasn't Sonnabend been a felon for decades by "possessing" the thing?

"By the terms of the law, hasn't Sonnabend been a felon for decades by "possessing" the thing?"

Precisely. You beat me to it.

The IRS is arguing that the art work was worth 65 million to Sonnabend (not to the heir).

John Gordon is missing the point that the IRS is not arguing that the art work is worth 65 million to the law abiding heirs but to Sonnabend (or her estate), who broke the law already.

It is very possible that Louvre would have paid 65 million to law breaking Sonnabend if she was given the chance to sell it around the time of her death. Then, her estate would have 65 million in the bank account and the IRS would like to have a piece of it.

The IRS is not totally out of line here.

No chang the IRS is totally out of line. Sonnabend was give special dispensation to own based on the fact that the egal predated the laws, and that it was displayed in a museum.

Even then it required the 'premision' and approval of the governemnt. She could not have sold it, no one can buy it. And even if someone out of country were willing to buy it the US governemnt will never let it leave our borders.

No matter what you or anyone any where may think it is worth the fact, do you know what facts are?

The FACT is no one can sell it and noone can buy it, therefore monetarily it is worth nothing.

Under the terms of the law Sonnabend estate had no right to transfer the title of the sculpture to her heirs as the heirs are barred by law from accepting it.

Thnk on that a moment. The IRS want them to pauy taxes on something they can not ever own and was never theirs to begin with

"the IRS is totally out of line. Sonnabend was give special dispensation to own based on the fact that the egal predated the laws, and that it was displayed in a museum."

There are three facts out there. Sonnabend fact, IRS fact and THE fact. The IRS is most likely to argue that they simply don't believe that "Rough Riders" bullshit. And they don't have to honor the notarized statement from Rauschenberg.

"The FACT is no one can sell it and noone can buy it, therefore monetarily it is worth nothing."

Really? How do you think Al Capone was sent to jail? He failed to report the income from the illegal liquor sale, so the IRS sent him to jail.

"Under the terms of the law Sonnabend estate had no right to transfer the title of the sculpture to her heirs as the heirs are barred by law from accepting it."

You are barking at the wrong tree. The IRS is arguing that it was worth 65 million to Sonnabend. And they are arguing that she already broke the law and will not hesitate to sell it for 65 million if she were given the chance to sell it around the time of her death.

The problem is she is already dead and we will never know what she would have done if Louvre offered her 65 million. The burden of proof is on her estate to prove that she would have rejected the offer because she wanted to obey the law.

The IRS is on to something here.

"Really? How do you think Al Capone was sent to jail? He failed to report the income from the illegal liquor sale, so the IRS sent him to jail."

Yeah, but the key word in that sentence was "income". Capone made a ton of money selling illegal booze. The IRS is not authorized by law to tax wealth; it can only tax income. And if there is one hard-and-fast, no-kidding aspect to tax law, that is it. Courts have consistently rejected IRS attempts to tax existing wealth.

In general, a gain cannot be taxed until it is realized; the IRS can't tax you just because stocks you held last year went up in value. It can only tax you when you sell those stocks for a gain. In estate law, the value of inherited goods are considered income, and taxed on that basis. However, the tax must be levied on the fair market value of the goods at the time the transfer actually takes place. What the goods were worth decades ago is immaterial, because that theoretical gain was never realized. At this time, the bald eagle has a fair market value of zero because it is against the law to sell it. QED.

And by the way, I'm pretty sure it would be illegal in France for the Louvre to have made Sonnabend any such offer to buy the eagle. Nearly all Western nations, including the U.S. and France, are parties to the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species, which would ban the Louvre or any other party in France from purchasing the eagle.

Well then if the IRS believes it is worth 65 million. They can take posession of it, and send the heirs a check for the 36 million change. Then arrest themselves for possesing it. See everyone a winner.

" In estate law, the value of inherited goods are considered income, and taxed on that basis. However, the tax must be levied on the fair market value of the goods at the time the transfer actually takes place."

I always thought you were a troll but you actually make a logical argument here.

But you are wrong again. The transfer actually took place from Sonnabend to Sonnabend Estate. Sonnabend Estate is totally separate entity from Sonnabend. The IRS is arguing that Sonnabend Estate should have paid 65 million to Sonnabend as she was willing law breaker, who would jump at the chance to sell it for 65 million. The 65 million would eventually end up with Sonnabend Estate and that is when the IRS would like to have a piece of it as a part of estate tax.

Do you ever get tired of being wrong all the time?

"The IRS is arguing that Sonnabend Estate should have paid 65 million to Sonnabend as she was willing law breaker, who would jump at the chance to sell it for 65 million. "

Why would the estate pay the deceased for anything? That makes no sense. And speculation about the motives of Sonnabend would be inadmissible in any court.

"The IRS is arguing that Sonnabend Estate should have paid 65 million to Sonnabend as she was willing law breaker,"

So the Sonnabend Estate should have given 65million dollars to a corpse for a sculpture that they had no legal means to sell under any circumstances?

Thats quite the pretzel you twisting there chang. You do realise you can just stand still to let the feds fuck your ass right? Unless of curse you get off of being contrted while it happens

"So the Sonnabend Estate should have given 65million dollars to a corpse for a sculpture that they had no legal means to sell under any circumstances?"

Let's pretend party girl, Sonnabend, had a illegal crack cocaine in her garage worth of 65 million instead of art work when she died.

Then, the law abiding beneficiaries of her estate decided that they would like to keep the cocaine just in case but on the estate tax returns, they said the value of the crack cocaine is zero because it is illegal to sell them legally.

The IRS is arguing that is bullshit. The key questions is whether the crack cocaine was worth 65 million to Sonnabend at the time of her death or not. It has nothing to do with how her estate beneficiary felt about it after she died.

"Thats quite the pretzel you twisting there chang. You do realise you can just stand still to let the feds fuck your ass right? Unless of curse you get off of being contrted while it happens"

If I became a dictator, I will make the estate tax rate 100%. You are going to create your own wealth and you are not going to wait for your rich parents to die, so you can buy shiny stuff.

Whatever happened to American dream?

Ok lets assume it was crack instaed of art.

The heirs would still need to sell it in order to be taxed on it.

They can not sell the art, legally they can not take possetion of the art back from the museaum, nor can they give it away for free, all they can do is say
"Hey we have this thing that is illegal to own, sell, or throw away. We cant make any money off of it there for it is worthless to us and we refuse to sell or even accept something illegal"

And thats what they did.

The estate is a fictional entint which holds the deceased property in abeance until it is passed onto the heirs, it doesnt exist to give cash to dead bodies

To recap, the heirs do not even own this art as to accept possestion of it would be commiting a crime, neither can the estate sell it or donate it.

As it can not be bought or sold it is wrth NOTHING

"To recap, the heirs do not even own this art as to accept possestion of it would be commiting a crime, neither can the estate sell it or donate it."

Let me explain it to you this way. You lend Sonnabned 35 million but she died without paying you back. At the time of her death, all she had was a crack cocaine worth street value 65 million and a house worth 10 million.

The beneficiary of her estate called you and said the estate cannot payback your debt of 35 million because it is illegal to sell the crack. This is what you are going to tell the fucker.

"I don't care. I don't give a shit. Just come up with the 35 million. Otherwise, I will foreclose on the all of her properties either legal or illegal. You fuckers will not get a cent out of her estate before I get paid 35 million."

That is exactly what the IRS is doing. Watch this clip and you will understand the IRS point of view.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQ11Ws3tqP0

Only problem with your senario is the IRS never fronted the money to buy the illegal object. Want to try again?

How about this scenario.
"Want to try again?"

You and Sonnabend went into cocaine business. You provided protection from the thugs and Sonnabend ran the operation. You guys agreed to split the profit after paying off the cartel for the original supply. She stored the cocaine worth 65 million, which was purchased on the credit in her house worth 10 million.

Then she died for overdose. Her pastor son was horrified when he found out the cocaine in her house and called you to tell you you will not get any money. And this is exactly what you are going to say.

"I don't care!!!!....."

Cocaine is illegal. Sonnabend had the eagle legally through grandfathering.

So basically you are eqating the IRS to a bunch of murderous thugs who dont give a shit about the law?

Well I cant argue with that.

Doesnt mean they are right, in fact such a comparision pretty much shows they are wrong