Why the fuck is Pakistan even an ally?

> Why the fuck is Pakistan even an ally?

Realpolitik.

Next question?

I vote for building a 30 foot wall around Muslim countries, throwing various sporting items like swords, knives, bats, golf clubs, etc. over the wall and let them alone for twenty to thirty years. And then see about upping the wall to fifty feet.

Is Al Lah so great? No.

One of my least favorite UnTruths i have heard hundreds of times is that Christians, Jews and Muzlums all worship the same God in different ways. Al Lah the moon god is not the same guy, okay. You can trust me or google it and trust someone else.

Yes, the unemployed guy who stalks teenaged girls is a model muzzlum. Islam is a bandit religion which justifies, if not glorifies, the worst behaviors. (Except cannibalism, so they may be a step up from Maoists.) Islam abhors self-discipline and praises lust, greed, wrath and pride; Ramadan is a whole month devoted to gluttony and sloth; war for envy of property is a holy cause. If they didn't have oil under the sands of Arabia they'd still be squatting in the desert in smelly robes and glaring at us kufar, unable to bother anyone from their squalorous poverty. I should get some breakfast now. Grrr.

Muslims are barbaric but it is not because they are Muslims but because they live in barbaric societies. In India during the 90s, twice Hindus killed over 500 Muslims. Non-Muslims attempted genocide in Rwanda and Yugoslavia. Christians were mass murderers in the name of their religion recently in Ireland. The west is now tolerant but it a recent societal change - remember WWI and WWII.

Yes, these Muslims are evil. But most of the people who have ever lived were as well. People are getting nicer and eventually this will enter the Muslim world as well. They will eventually learn to ignore the evil parts of their book as most western Christians have.

Imagine you were a Muslim in Spain during the Christian Inquisition. Which religion would you consider the religion of peace?

Evil people read the evil parts of their holy books. Good people read the good parts of their holy books. Then they both rationalize away the other parts not to their taste.

I assume you have read Letter to a Christian Nation in which Sam Harris explains how "Good" Christians are supposed act - genocidally. Turn the other cheek or kill the idolators. You get out of holy books what you bring into them.

"Imagine you were a Muslim in Spain during the Christian Inquisition. Which religion would you consider the religion of peace?" ~ Curtis

Imagine you were a Christian or a Jew living in Al-Andalus under the Almoravids or the Almohads.

Imagine you're a coptic christian living in Cairo right now.

Curtis:

"People are getting nicer and eventually this will enter the Muslim world as well."

And just how long do we have to wait for that "eventually" and what do we do in the meantime?

We gave peace a chance with the Muslim world and they gave us 9-11. Israel has tried to peacefully live with its neighbors and their neighbors still insist on "wiping Israel off the map."

So how long do we civilized* folks have to wait for "eventually"?

* yes, I am, in fact, calling the West and its allies civilized as we don't insist on cutting off people's heads while calling them "dirty Jews and sons of dirty Jew whores" as was done to Daniel Pearl and others. We don't strangle gays simply for being gay, nor do we force rape victims to marry their rapists to "preserve their honor." So, yes, we are civilized (not flawless, but civilized) and much of the Muslim world is not.

"Imagine you were a Muslim in Spain during the Christian Inquisition. Which religion would you consider the religion of peace?" ~ Curtis

The Spanish Inquisition was more a political tool than a religious one.

Tomas de Torquemada reported to Ferdinand and Isabella, and only nominally to the pope.

The Spanish Inquisition was used as a tool to control the conversos, forcibly-converted Jews and Muslims who had risen to positions of power and prominence following the restoration of Christian rule. The conversos had been forcibly baptised.

These "New Christians" were not beholden to the Church or to Ferdinand or Isabella for their power and wealth. As a result, they were considered unreliable vassals.

Innocent VIII tried to allow appeals to Rome for the condemned, but Ferdinand decreed death for anyone doing so without royal permission.

Catholic doctrine forebade forced baptism and allowed any forced converts to return to their original religion without being charged with heresy - so by Church law, the conversos could not be charged with heresy if they went back to their old religious practices (and old loyalties). Under the Spanish Inquisition, they were charged with heresy.

Ferdinand and Isabella had a vested interest in keeping the Church as far away from the Spanish Inquisition as possible.

Muslims in Turkey* are paragons of virtue compared to Muslims in Iran and Saudi Arabia. They share the same basic religion but have a completely different society. Feel free to disagree with me on the degree of religious influence but if you contend it is the only cause, you are clearly mistaken.

I expect the Muslim world to slowly improve their morals just as the Christian world has. Read Steven Pinker's Better Angels for my optimism.

*I understand Turks are much less tolerant than westerners but they are comparable the way we were 50 years ago.

I expect the Muslim world to slowly improve their morals just as the Christian world has.

And what level of casualties is considered acceptable while we wait for this improvement?

The world cannot continue to exist with one half of it living in the 14th century and trying to kill the other half.

Too much of the Muslim world has intentionally rejected Western values (the improved morals you're so willing to wait for), so how exactly are the two going to be reconciled?

*I understand Turks are much less tolerant than westerners but they are comparable the way we were 50 years ago. -- Curtis at August 20, 2012 11:54 AM

These are the same kind, sweet, loveable, Turks who tried to run the Gaza blockade back in May? The ones who refused boarding and inspection by both Israeli and Egyptian forces? The ones who refused to obey the Laws of the Seas that their country is a signatory to?

They're just a little less tolerant.

@Jim P.

Are the Turks actions comparable to the Birmingham Church bombing, Kent State, KKK, etc? Bad yes (we relatively bad 50 years ago) but wonderful compared to the Arab states.

@Conan
I defy you to come up with an example of me defending these people or saying we should wait idly. I think we need to understand the root cause of their barbarity in order to combat it.

IMO, Islam is the proximate cause not the ultimate cause.

Your excuses for barbarism are shameful. Here's a good video for you: .

Good luck Sir.

And that did not go through... apparently I can't link it but if you'd like to learn something about islam then you tube "Three things you (probably) don't know about islam."

And for your beloved Turkey, Erdogan is bent on turning them into the next Egypt:

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2012/08/moderate-turkey-gender-violence-leading-cause-of-death-for-women-aged-15-44.html

Go ahead, tell the 80% of Egyptian women who have had their genitals mutilated that they just need to be patient.

"Muslims in Turkey* are paragons of virtue compared to Muslims in Iran and Saudi Arabia."

Spoken by someone who clearly has not been following Turkish politics at all the last 10 or so years.

Kent State was Nixon and Rhodes' doing. And we built a statue for Rhodes.

I like commenting with grownups who remember this shit.

Curtis,

Did you by any chance see this prior blog post from Amy?

Islam is the official, state sponsored ideology from Morocco to Indonesia. It cannot be challenged, criticized or contradicted. Go ahead, Curtis, try it! The only exception is maybe Turkey, where Ataturk, a civilian, made changes, but those are eroding. You are whitewashing it, just like many people did to Stalinism, Maoism or Pol Pot-ism, or Hitlerism: it's not so bad, the KKK (add your favorite bogeyman) is equally bad. You'd have your panties all bunched up, if you even read any of those islamic inspired constitutions, like say in Syria:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/81771718/Qordoba-Translation-of-the-Syrian-Constitution-Modifications-15-2-2012

Article 3
1. The President has to be part of the Muslim faith.
2. Islamic jurisprudence doctrine is a primary source of legislation.

The impact of the KKK, compared to islam or welfare, is minimal. MLK's niece: The great irony is that abortion has done what the Klan only dreamed of

> I expect the Muslim world to slowly improve their
> morals just as the Christian world has. Read
> Steven Pinker's Better Angels for my optimism.

Did you read it?

Christians didn't cheerfully learn to be un-intrusive and contained. They were taught, often aggressively (if not violently). Rich sectarian splits helped as well. So it must be for Islam, if it's to survive.

The rest of us will not be patient.

"I think we need to understand the root cause of their barbarity in order to combat it. "

No we don't. Deep understanding of a culture is not required in order to carpet-bomb it.

Where necessary, consult CD, directly above.

Otherwise, this video describes shows the "root cause" in sufficient detail for your practical purposes.

Anyone who lives long enough to be licensed to drive without discerning the "root causes of barbarity" within their own hearts or those of others is either pulling some sort of con job or is so naive as to not require consultation.

There are no mysteries in play here. We're not missing any information. This is not the time to be humble, whether earnestly or officiously, about our successes and their failures.

If you, Curtis, want to live some sort of I'm-Christ-in-flowing-robes leadership fantasy, well, we certainly need help... We need genuine insights into ways of bringing adult people –who've been fully raised in time-tested patterns of pre-historic barbarity– into modern thinking as quickly as possible. Because it would be better for everyone if their transition required just years or decades instead of generations. The world is crawling with impoverished but decent people who want to living in modernity now....And the stupidity of their neighboring primitives is getting in the way.

For those good people and for those who care for them, Dave's option looks ever-more attractive.

If you've got a card to play, let's see it.

I will repeat my challenges to everyone.
1) Why is Turkey different Saudi Arabia and Iran? If your argument does not include religion, you are agreeing with the main thrust of my idea.

2) Where did I say anything good about any Muslim country except Turkey? I called them evil and barbarians. If you would like to have a fruitful debate, please do not put words in my mouth.

3) Where did I ever say we should accept their barbarity? We need to understand it in order to combat it properly.

4) How does Turkey compare to the American south in 1962? How does it compare to Germany in 1942? The west has gotten better. With a few hiccups, it will continue to do so. I predict the same slow progress in the Muslim world. I predict that some of the Arab countries will reach Turkey's current level in the next 10 years despite the influence of influence.

I predict Turkey

Curtis - if you read back, you'll see that the major point of your post was subject to a "two-wrongs" fallacy, excusing current Muslim conduct.

Hope you can clarify.

@Radwaste,

I do not see where I excused Muslim conduct. If I did, I mistyped. I tried to say that the abhorrent behavior of the Muslim world is not a result of their religion but of their society. IMO, evil people in an evil society with find an evil ideology to justify their evil acts. In the Muslim world, Islam is their justification but in other parts of the world it has been communism, Nazism, Christianity or various forms of bigotry. There is nothing uniquely evil about Islam. Even the best ideologies can used for evil by zealots (French Revolution) and no religion is the good ideology.

On a more practical level, the question is how do we help Egypt and Tunisia to become more like Turkey than Saudi Arabia. Their religious book is not go to change but their society (and religion) can to allow it to be interpreted through good- natured glasses.

According to Freedom House, the 90% Islamic country of Indonesia is considered a "free" country. According to you, that is impossible. Turkey is "partly free" edging toward "free". Saudi Arabia receives the worst possible "not free" rating with Iran and Yemen close behind.

If there were "no division religion and society in the Muslim world", then all Muslim states would basically have the same lack of freedom.

Why are Turkey and Indonesia so much freer? There is something in their society that differentiates them from the Arab states. That's a hint to one of the differentiators.

Dont we have a commenter form Indonesia here? Isnt that where Radesje (sorry I cant spell it) is from

Cause he bitches about muslim rule all the time. Curtis, talk to him for a while

Redrajesh, thats his name

"Why are Turkey and Indonesia so much freer?"

Pull out a map and read a history book, and you'll find the answer to that question. Turkey is right next to the West. A good slice of the country, including the largest city, Istanbul ( formerly Constantinople ) is in Europe. Turkish history & Western history have been intimately related for more than a millenium. This worked in both directions. The Ottoman Empire tried to conquer Europe twice - Siege of Vienna, 1529 & 1683. Some former Ottoman outposts, like Albania & Bosnia, are now Muslim countries within Europe. On the other hand, Turkey has been more strongly influenced by Western civilization & ideas than any other Muslim country. This influence culminated in Mustafa Kemal Ataturk, the founder of the Republic of Turkey. He abolished the Caliphate, banned retrograde Islamic customs, and embarked on a massive crash course in modernization & secularization. Take note that PM Erdogan has been eager to undo many Kemalist reforms and make the country more explicitly Islamic.

Indonesia by contrast was the furthest-flung outpost of Islam. These tropical islands in the South Seas were the most distant lands that classical Islam reached. They were the furthest away from the fanaticism of the Arabian desert. Thousands of islands peopled by hundreds of ethnic groups, with thousands of years of Hindu, Buddhist, and pagan history, all served to blunt and soften the sword of Islam.

The reasons why Turkey & Indonesia are benign compared to Saudi Arabia have everything to do with geography & history and nothing to do with the nature of Islam itself. Remember that when a billion Muslims bow and say their prayers, they face towards Mecca, not Ankara or Djakarta.

Curtis,

Please actually give us one citation, link, or otherwise verifiable source for your optimism that after 1400+ years of Islamic barbarism, hate, murder, rape that it is going to reform within the next 20 years.

If you can't get that the Islamic religion is not horrible, I ask that you go to Egypt, Saudi Arabia or any of the similar countries and try to build a church. For that matter, just fly to Saudi Arabia and ask to visit Mecca or Medina. When you are denied, try to make a pilgrimage on your own. If they find your dessicated body in the desert -- please have your family inform us.

Once I can see something that realistically shows a change then I will no longer think of you as a mush-brained, mealy-mouthed, quisling that is willing to sell out Western Civilization.

Martin,

"The reasons why Turkey & Indonesia are benign compared to Saudi Arabia have everything to do with geography & history and nothing to do with the nature of Islam itself."
Yes, exactly the point I was trying to make. Their geography & history (which I called society) plus Islam color their behavior. Islam affects Muslims behavior but it is not all controlling.

@Jim P.
How many times do I have to use the words barbaric, evil and abhorrent before you realize I am criticizing them? I am just examining the root cause.

Here is the 40 year trend of freedom by country according Freedom House:
1972 29% Free, 25% Partly Free, 46% Not Free
2012 45% Free, 31% Partly Free, 24% Not Free

For the Muslim world, Indonesia and Turkey are clearly more free than their were under Suharto and the Army. Not perfect but better.

The Arab Spring is a good sign. I expect one or two of these countries to reach Turkey's partly free status by the end of the decade. Slow improvement from barbaric to moderately OK.

Turkey and Indonesia are not benign. In Indonesia, several provinces have sharia rule, meaning no freedom of anything. Other provinces are sell restrictive, but the government is still promoting islam. Turkey cannot even come to terms with what happened almost 100 years ago to the Armenians, or the Greek population exchange, not to mention what's still going on in the Kurdish parts. Even 1950s North America comparison is lacking, since desegregation started then, although slowly. Eisenhower, then Kennedy started events, although slowly to promote equality. Both Turkey and Indonesian governments are promoting segregation with the promotion of islam. Turkey is 98% or more Muslim. How do you think that happened? The Arab Spring looks to be bad for non-Muslims. Once the governments of muslim majority countries stop promoting islam, or islamic institutions can be sued, then maybe you can say life will get better. That's why I think even the Saudi judoka was a good idea, since it at least gets people in KSA a glimpse of what's outside the restrictive ideology. Anything that gives people a glimpse would be good: Oprah, porn, TV, Hillary Duff, Britney Spears.

Typo: sell should be less in above

The Inquisition's here and it's here to staaaaay!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CqgZnvfJ9Jg

@Stinky,

Is Indonesia better than Saudi Arabia or Iran? Yes, tons. Therefore there are major factors other than Islam that affect freedom.

Is Indonesia better than it was under Sukarno and Suharto? Yes, tons. Therefore, Islamic countries can make major progress in a few decades.

If you can refute those statements, please do. If you cannot, you are not arguing against anything I said.

I admit that I do not know enough about Indonesia to argue specifics. I rely on Freedom House to be relatively non-biased source that can compare every country in the world. Perhaps there is a better general choice but I am unaware of it.

I think what you are saying, is that since "goulash" communism in Hungary in 1980 was better than, say, Hungary under 1950 Stalinism, communism can make major progress; or that China now is better than under Mao, communism can evolve. I think both above are fallacies. The underlying formula is still there, and it cannot be challenged or contradicted, since the state supports a certain viewpoint. You can argue with it if you want, but that's my view.
You can also read:
http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2009/10/indonesia/finkel-text/1

...and take a look at the map:

http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2009/10/indonesia/indonesia-illustration