Men Return Their Eagle Scout Badges To Protest Boy Scouts' Anti Gay Policies
Good for these men for standing up against discrimination against gays (the Boy Scouts' policy of refusing membership to homosexual men and boys.
James Hamblin posts at The Atlantic:
And to all the heterosexual kids in Scouting who are absorbing the message that discrimination is okay -- for them to see the Eagles they idolize tell them clearly that it's not.
The moving letters are posted here.
And just imagine being 12, maybe not fitting in very well in school and other places, and being told you can't be a part of an organization because you feel like you like boys rather than girls. (Some of my friends who are gay said they knew at a pretty young age.)
> And just imagine being 12, maybe not fitting
> in very well
Try to understand how many times we've been asked (or told) to be all head-tilty and pouty-lipped about this over the last thirty years. Try to understand that these demands come from the 5th-grade-girl part of life; all smug and defended and lethargic. This is not a good way to forge social policy (or adult souls, for that matter.)
Yeah, sure... That's gotta be tough. Point conceded, m'kay?
Thing is, those years are tough for everyone, which 5th grade girls don't seem to understand so well.
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at August 21, 2012 6:27 AM
It is a private insitution. They can do whatever they want.
Why are boys this young being asked to address the sexuality of others instead of learning surivival skills in the outdoors?
I think it's a pretty smarmy way to lead a cause....
These are children. Who really shouldn't be having to worry about things like this until they are older - but apperantly, there are others who deem their own beliefs more important.
I think it's a terrible venue for this - and politicizing an organization that has nothing to do with sex or sexuality is unforivably selfish.
Feebie at August 21, 2012 6:30 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2012/08/21/men_return_thei.html#comment-3311054">comment from Crid [CridComment at gmail]Try to understand that these demands come from the 5th-grade-girl part of life; all smug and defended and lethargic.
You ever been excluded from things?
I had no friends until I was 13, and Brownies and later, Girl Scouts, were very important to me. Pretty essential. All I had besides library books to keep me from being alone.
What do you have against people standing up for gay kids being included? 5th grade girls aren't female storm troopers -- they're rather sensitive.
Sensitivity to kids is bad in your book?
Amy Alkon at August 21, 2012 6:32 AM
We look out at what's happening in the world, including at every other post on your blog, and are tired of being asked to feel someone else's pain in such a naive way.
This childish injunction is what has brought America to this point... In her finances, her government, her environment and on and on. It hasn't worked out all that well.
(PS- That really happened... Look it up.)
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at August 21, 2012 6:34 AM
> I had no friends until I was 13
If this is a desperate cry for therapeutic support in a world that doesn't care, not a problem.
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at August 21, 2012 6:35 AM
(PS- Again, not kidding)
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at August 21, 2012 6:39 AM
Sexuality is a part of people's lives from the time they're born. It's not something that magically happens at puberty. The Boy Scouts doesn't have to offer a badge in anal sex. They don't even need to talk about sex. But extending acceptance to gay boys and men doesn't require that.
The Boy Scouts can do whatever they want. That's true. And the people who grew up in their organization can do whatever they want with those badges, and can protest their policies in whatever legal way they please. This is exactly how this sort of change should be happening -- from within.
MonicaP at August 21, 2012 6:43 AM
At what point are the Scout Leaders going to be tasked with (men, mind you, who have already demonized by the femi-leftists-male haters) explaining to their scouts why policies have to change. How even if it doesn't pertain to their specfic troop they need to miss the next campout for sensitivity and diversity training - the topic of this discussion will be how Joe wants to fuck Harry in the ass... because, clearly, this is the difference we are talking about.
Not a cleft pallet. Not a burn victim. Not a lazy eye, or a wheelchair bound little boy.... People who have SEX differently then the majority of the population.
And this is what would make everyone feel better - that these discussions are being had, and policies are being changed to accomodate for a children's organization?
This is so completely fucking absurd. Pick another organization and venue to make a political statement - these are children and they are being used as pawns.
Feebie at August 21, 2012 6:48 AM
"The Boy Scouts doesn't have to offer a badge in anal sex. They don't even need to talk about sex. But extending acceptance to gay boys and men doesn't require that"
Go ahead and explain to us as you would explain to a scout full of troops why all this fuss? What makes Johnny "different" that makes it so a private organization needs to change policy around them?
You see, because they aren't different....except, who and how they choose (or are built) to have sex with.
So in order to gain acceptance and be like all the other scouts you are pointing out a difference....
How long do you think it's gonna take for these young'ins with infante terrible to ask: What does gay mean?
Ridiculous.
Feebie at August 21, 2012 6:51 AM
No one has to point out a difference at all. When a black kid joins, do they all have a discussion about what makes black kids different from white and Asian kids? I hope not. All they need to do is stop talking about it. All except for the very youngest already know what "gay" means. The word is all over the place, and only the most sheltered children seriously don't know.
Again, what's the problem if the Boy Scouts themselves change this policy from within? If more and more Boy Scouts think gays should be allowed, then that's just the natural evolution of an organization. The ones who have a problem with even letting kids know the definition of "gay" can go start another homophobic group where their kids are never exposed to gay people.
MonicaP at August 21, 2012 7:01 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2012/08/21/men_return_thei.html#comment-3311086">comment from MonicaPThe Boy Scouts can do whatever they want.
Yes, they can. And I admire all of those who mailed their Eagle Scout badges back in to express what they think that should be.
Amy Alkon at August 21, 2012 7:05 AM
Why are we talking about sex to a bunch of boys that don't care about anything other than camping - a private organization....?
This isn't about being homophobic or excluding anyone. I am quite sure there are a handful of gay boys interested in becoming scouts. I am quite sure they aren't prohibited (because no one asks these children "are you gay" before they take their pledge and pay their dues) - This isn't an issue until some sanctimonoious, agenda driven, adult decides to make a political statement to castigate a CHILDREN'S organization...which would then require prohibition - because now, the difference is "out there" and it has to do with SEX. Children....sex....get it?
SEX. Children. With adult troop leaders?
Like, hello?
Wrong venue. Stupid beyond anything I've heard.
Feebie at August 21, 2012 7:06 AM
My fiance is an Eagle Scout. He supports gay marriage.
He thinks this is the wrong thing to be doing with the Boy Scouts - because, these are children.
He said that there were kids in their troop who they suspected of being "gay" and no one really cared. Aside from the normal teasing boys do (all of them were subjected to) the adults didn't let things go too far....but boys tease each other....
But them being there was NEVER an issue because, you know, they were there to roast marshmellows and fish, and pitch tents and sing songs - not talk about sex.
This is ridiculously political.
Feebie at August 21, 2012 7:10 AM
> All they need to do is stop talking about it. All
> except for the very youngest already know what
> "gay" means.
Lot of presumption in there.
So, here we have it... The resentments of pre-teen girls will rule our planet. But they're not storm troopers... They're actually very
…And don't you forget it, mister. All you need to do is stop talking about it.
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at August 21, 2012 7:10 AM
It has to do with forcing gay children and adults (Scout leaders) to purposely hide huge parts of their lives from other Scouts in order to get by. It's not about a Scout leader telling the boys all about his love for his boyfriend. What if he happens to mention his boyfriend or husband in passing? Or the children they might have together? Heterosexuals make references to their sexuality all the time without even thinking about it.
Children aren't completely freaked out by sex. Adults are freaked out by children knowing about sex. It's only when we make it freaky that it becomes an issue.
MonicaP at August 21, 2012 7:11 AM
And just like the raw bacon left in a public park before a Muslim "Ramadan" celebration - I can't fucking wait until some little boy decides to put a toad in the gay kids sleeping bag....
HATE CRIME!!!!
Feebie at August 21, 2012 7:14 AM
"It has to do with forcing gay children and adults (Scout leaders) to purposely hide huge parts of their lives from other Scouts in order to get by."
Umm. why do you think kids should be talking about sex in that venue? Why should kids know their Scout Leaders want to have sex with other men?
WHY? Why do they need to know this?
I had a lesbian camp counselor at Girl Scout Camp....we all knew it...her name was "Chopsticks" and she had harry legs and underarms and use to take showers with us - and gasp...nothing happened, nothing inappropriate- zippo..
NO ONE CARED. She wasn't prohibited from being around us and this was back in the eighties!!!!
And she didn't feel compelled to tell us that she was gay or have any policies made around it because, why on earth would her sexual preferences and habits be any business of a bunch of 10 year olds?
Huh?
Feebie at August 21, 2012 7:19 AM
This isn't an issue until some sanctimonious, agenda driven, adult decides to make a political statement to castigate a CHILDREN'S organization...which would then require prohibition - because now, the difference is "out there" and it has to do with SEX. Children....sex....get it?
Gotta agree with Feebie on this. There was a gay Scout in my brothers' troop back in the '70s. The whole troop knew. Nobody cared. He was a part of the troop, he participated in the camp outs and all other troop activities; he was a good kid, emphasis on kid.
Oh and his hair was fwah. Very fwah. We liked it a lot.
Flynne at August 21, 2012 7:19 AM
When we discuss hetero love to children, we don't do it in overtly sexual terms. We don't say, "You're here, Jimmy, because Mommy really loves the cock, and Daddy has a thing for large-breasted women." We use terms children can understand. There's no reason we can't do the same with homosexual relationships. "Bill and Bob live together because they love each other very much, and they wanted to raise a child together, a lot like me and your mother wanted you."
This isn't overly political. I'm not suggesting that we have a law forcing the PC view of the world on the Boy Scouts. But culture changes, and if it eventually changes to the point that most Boy Scouts think gays should be allowed to freely be Boy Scouts and leaders, then yay for them.
MonicaP at August 21, 2012 7:19 AM
> Children aren't completely freaked out by sex.
> Adults are freaked out by children knowing
> about sex.
Oh, says who? This is Rousseau bullshit. He had five bastard children who he sent to the orphanage. HE'S the one who was freaked out by sex.
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at August 21, 2012 7:19 AM
> Very fwah.
?
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at August 21, 2012 7:20 AM
Umm. why do you think kids should be talking about sex in that venue? Why should kids know their Scout Leaders want to have sex with other men?
Why should people be prohibiting kids from talking about sex? I'm not saying bring it up, but if it comes up, why squash it?
Comparing the '80s to now doesn't make a lot of sense. When two women lived together, they were "friends." Now, gay people live openly, in marriages and with children, and questions might pop up. I'm not sure why people always associate conversations about gays with sex. No one ever has to talk about sex. But if a kid lives in the same community as his gay scout leader who happens to be married and with children of his own, the issue is going to come up.
MonicaP at August 21, 2012 7:26 AM
"But culture changes, and if it eventually changes to the point that most Boy Scouts think gays should be allowed to freely be Boy Scouts and leaders, then yay for them."
But they are already there!!!!!!!!
Feebie at August 21, 2012 7:26 AM
But they are already there!!!!!!!!
Good!!!!!!!!! Then this isn't even a problem anymore!!!!!!!!
And the Boy Scouts who are returning their badges are just really confused. I'll let them know.
MonicaP at August 21, 2012 7:28 AM
> There's no reason we can't do the same with
> homosexual relationships.
[She follows this with fragments of sample dialog: Try these scenarios in your child-rearing contexts! Let us know how it works out!]
This is precisely the wounded fifth-grader mentality that Amy sought to evoke. If she can't play ball with other kids, then darn it all, she'll grow up to be the oracular Priestess of Interior Family Colloquy.... She'll know exactly what people are supposed to say to each other. And she'll know exactly when "All they need to do is stop talking."
________________
But the rest of the world is not fifth graders.
We're tired of being scolded.
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at August 21, 2012 7:30 AM
"I'm not sure why people always associate conversations about gays with sex."
Go ahead. Explain to me the "difference" then between a straight person and a gay person? And why a private institution that has had "gays" in it without fanfare since it was probably institutied has to change policy to specifically accomodate who....and because of why????
The EIGHTIES don't matter because they weren't open about it?
I was a ten year old that took showers for two weeks with a lesbian at a girl scout camp with over 2,000 girls up in Mount Lassen - and you think that isn't relevent?!
Clearly, if 12 ten year olds knew she liked other women this couldn't have escaped the Camp director.....but we apperantly need to politicize this and MAKE EVERYONE ACCEPT someone elses sex habits....as if it matters. As if it makes a difference when paddling a canoe, or pitching a tent or singing off key....as if it really matters that everyone there know and acknowledge that I am a heterosexual....
Children!?!?!?!??!
Feebie at August 21, 2012 7:31 AM
My daughter's friend came out to her and their group last when he was 13. My daughter and her friends all immediately embraced him telling him they loved him and they were proud to be his friend. I know that when I was 13 the worst thing a 13 year old boy could have done was come out of the closet. I'm glad things have changed in that respect, at least in some places.
My sons were never allowed to join the Boy Scouts because I felt their policy was discriminatory. I'd hope that any Eagle Scout would tell the Boy Scouts to take their badge and shove em up their asses.
Kristen at August 21, 2012 7:33 AM
Not from the Urban Dictionary, Crid, but in my daughters' circle of friends, if you have 'fwah' hair, it means your hair is incredibly cool- and awesome-looking, and soft to the touch. Always clean, shiny, etc. Not the fwah fwah referred to in the UD.
Flynne at August 21, 2012 7:33 AM
"My sons were never allowed to join the Boy Scouts because I felt their policy was discriminatory. I'd hope that any Eagle Scout would tell the Boy Scouts to take their badge and shove em up their asses. "
Seriously? Am I remembering this correctly, you are a single mother no?
Thank GOD you prohibited your boys from engaging in BOY scouts, and being around other adult males so you - Ms. Sanctamonious could feel REALLY good about yourself - that you were fair, and just in the world. Society, I am sure is a better place because of your noble decision.
UGH.
Feebie at August 21, 2012 7:36 AM
"I was a ten year old that took showers for two weeks with a lesbian at a girl scout camp with over 2,000 girls up in Mount Lassen - and you think that isn't relevent?!"
Feebie, let me get this straight. So does that mean the lesbian you showered with was also a rapist or molester or just a lesbian? Do you think that just by being open about her sexuality means she may have taken the next step and pinned you against the shower wall? Oh, wait. I'm getting confused with that married football coach everyone covered up for.
Kristen at August 21, 2012 7:37 AM
When women think they can teach boys how to be men....
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at August 21, 2012 7:41 AM
And in other "politically correct" assholery, as if there isn't enough already...
Oh, wait. I'm getting confused with that married football coach everyone covered up for.
Kristen, apples and oranges. That particular asshat never said/claimed to be gay. And his group wasn't the Boy Scouts. And it's been known for quite some time now that there are women child abusers out there, who aren't necessarily lesbian. Straw man argument, at best. Can you provide a relevant example of what you're getting at?
Flynne at August 21, 2012 7:42 AM
Crap! Messed up the link, dammit. Sorry.
Flynne at August 21, 2012 7:45 AM
Thank GOD you prohibited your boys from engaging in BOY scouts, and being around other adult males so you - Ms. Sanctamonious could feel REALLY good about yourself - that you were fair, and just in the world. Society, I am sure is a better place because of your noble decision."
Yes, Feebie, I am a single mother. I didn't take my kids away from all the males in the world. I left their rather abusive father because I didn't think that him beating up their mom or them was really in their best interest. Silly me.
I do feel good about my decision to not let them join a group that discriminates. Discrimination is a big no no in my house. Of course my kids were around a lot of men who were great role models. They do happen to exist outside of the Boy Scouts.
Noble? Hmmm. I never really considered myself particularly noble. But if you do, I appreciate the compliment.
Kristen at August 21, 2012 7:45 AM
Worthwhile sarcasm re: Boys & Girls.
(But isn't it ALL worthwhile?)
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at August 21, 2012 7:47 AM
Flynne, Feebie felt it was relevant that a suspected lesbian showered with her at camp. I simply asked if by keeping her in the closet protected the other girls against lesbian acts. And while I agree that many women are molesters, my point was more that the last shower rape we heard about was by a heterosexual male who was supposedly happily married, not by a homosexual being allowed to enter an organization.
Kristen at August 21, 2012 7:48 AM
> Discrimination is a big no no in my house.
See, that's what I hate, is when women talk to the the rest of the world in baby talk. Far too many women learn to THINK in baby talk. It's repellent.
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at August 21, 2012 7:48 AM
"So does that mean the lesbian you showered with was also a rapist or molester or just a lesbian? Do you think that just by being open about her sexuality means she may have taken the next step and pinned you against the shower wall?"
No. But in Girl Scouts we talked about unity, and sisterhood...not sex, when I was growing up. It wasn't the camp counselors job to teach us about these things...because, it was none of our business.
THings have changed now to be more politically in line with certain SHIT DISTURBERS pushing an agenda:
http://www.americanthinker.com/2012/03/the_girl_scouts_planned_parenthoods_tactical_arm.html
The Boy Scouts haven't budged. So they are now a target of this same horseshit.
Why are we USING children to politicize sex?
Feebie at August 21, 2012 7:49 AM
AND DEAR GOD I HATE "ROLE MODELS", especially as regards the children of single mothers.
We have discussed this many times before.
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at August 21, 2012 7:50 AM
"When women think they can teach boys how to be men...."
Egg-Fucking-Xactly - Crid!
Feebie at August 21, 2012 7:50 AM
Feebie, you made the claim that it was relevant based on the fact that a "known" lesbian showered with you. So if you spoke of unity, was that unity for the showering lesbian too? Or only if she stayed in the closet. I'm not sure I understand. Was her showering with you posing a danger or not?
Kristen at August 21, 2012 7:50 AM
AND DEAR GOD I HATE "ROLE MODELS", especially as regards the children of single mothers.
We have discussed this many times before."
Crid, darling. Duly noted. Next time my ex-husband threatens to kill me in front of a room full of po po, I'll ask him if he'll consider taking me back so that my kids can have a father in the house. I promise.
Kristen at August 21, 2012 7:53 AM
"Or only if she stayed in the closet. I'm not sure I understand. Was her showering with you posing a danger or not?"
Pretend I am ten.
Why do I care about Chopstick's sexual orientation if it has no bearing on her thoughts about how best to right end a tipped canoe out of the water?
Then, explain to me WHY Chopstick's is different then me...what makes her different?
Again, why is that important for helping me with my tipped canoe?
Feebie at August 21, 2012 7:55 AM
I have one more question before I go off and enjoy this glorious day.
For those who feel it is about discussing sex and not discussing sex....what exactly do you tell the kids when certain people are kicked out or not allowed to join based on their sexuality? By banning a certain group, doesn't that require a conversation? I'd think so. So how does that go?
So Mr. Jones likes to put his thing in .....? And that is why he can no longer be your leader?
Did I break it down too much? Crid?
Kristen at August 21, 2012 7:57 AM
Feebie, I'll pretend, by your logic, that you are ten. You brought up the shower. I didn't. What does it matter if a ten year old lesbian showers with a ten year old hetero girl? Is there a power shift because one is gay? Can the 10 year old lesbian not help you with a tipped canoe? Please clarify.
Kristen at August 21, 2012 8:00 AM
"I'm not sure I understand. Was her showering with you posing a danger or not?"
I am not sure you could hit the broad side of a barn....
But, to answer your question....she wasn't posing a danger and everyone knew she was a lesbian. I hardly think that obvious charachteristic also snuck passed the hundreds of other counselors there or the Camp Director. You see. And no one cared. Probably because she was a really good (and Athletic) camp counselor and awesome with kids - so you know, she was probably hired because of those qualities.
People don't ask me if I am homo-or heterosexual before I am hired for a job. Isn't that the way we WANT it to be? Content of Charachter?
Feebie at August 21, 2012 8:01 AM
I am not sure you could hit the broad side of a barn...."
Feebie, I doubt I could either. Markmanship was never my thing. But I guess I could pick out a lesbian in the crowd now. Doesn't shave legs or armpits. Whew. Glad I can spot them now.
Kristen at August 21, 2012 8:07 AM
"Feebie, I'll pretend, by your logic, that you are ten. You brought up the shower. I didn't. What does it matter if a ten year old lesbian showers with a ten year old hetero girl? Is there a power shift because one is gay? Can the 10 year old lesbian not help you with a tipped canoe? Please clarify."
Jesus.
You didn't answer my questions.
The shower was specifically providing evidence that in no way was Chopsticks discriminated against due to her sexual orientation (which was, I can't even tell you how obvious).
Chopsticks wasn't ten. She was like, 24. And she was more than qualified to be there.
She never felt compelled to tell us about her sex. Niether did the other camp counselors.
Because, um, like - it wasn't relevent to why we were there. We weren't there to listen to a bunch of sanctimonious adults tell us how we need to think and behave. There was NOODLE ART to be made, and face painting to be worn, and burping contests to be had after shot-gunning sodas.... How far could you burp the alphabet in one exhale?
Okay.
You are missing the point.
Feebie at August 21, 2012 8:07 AM
> Next time my ex-husband threatens to kill me in
> front of a room full of po po
And Amy says, next time all the other kids don't want to play Barbies with me...
Listen, Buttercup, I didn't tell you to marry the guy. Your personal story is your own beeswax, you know? Nonetheless, we get the sense that a lot of women, quite often single mothers, have never been able to see masculinity for what it is... So they'll do their God Damnedest to make sure their children are as skeevey about it as they themselves have grown up to be.
And that includes sons. (For fatherless daughters of divorce, it's a foregone conclusion.)
But if we talk about it, suddenly it's all about "abusive" and ball-coach perverts and not having friends and the most personal sorrows that can be described.
The fact that each of us has known an hour of hurt and distress doesn't actually equip us to set policy, or to tell other people can or cannot talk about.
> Did I break it down too much?
Not nearly enough.
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at August 21, 2012 8:07 AM
"But, to answer your question....she wasn't posing a danger and everyone knew she was a lesbian. I hardly think that obvious charachteristic also snuck passed the hundreds of other counselors there or the Camp Director. You see. And no one cared. Probably because she was a really good (and Athletic) camp counselor and awesome with kids - so you know, she was probably hired because of those qualities."
Now there is the meat of it. Everyone knew. SHe was great with the kids. SHe posed no risk. So why ban her based on her sexuality? Thank you for making my point and putting it in your own words. Truly, I thank you.
Kristen at August 21, 2012 8:09 AM
"So why ban her based on her sexuality? "
Kristen. THAT is my point. She wasn't banned. Her sexuality, never came up.
How politically inconvenient for those trying to make a statement....
Feebie at August 21, 2012 8:12 AM
How politically inconvenient for those robbing their children of some masculine (or feminine, respectively) bonding time......
YEs. Let's proove a point!!!! Let's shut these fuckers down....private organization or not!
Fucking kill-joys. All of you.
(I think this has less to do with lesbian's and gays as it has to do with the Boy/Girl Scouts being more of a Christian leaning organization...personally).
Feebie at August 21, 2012 8:16 AM
...what exactly do you tell the kids when certain people are kicked out or not allowed to join based on their sexuality? By banning a certain group, doesn't that require a conversation?
But Kristen. My brothers' friend didn't get kicked out. He was allowed to join. They went camping. They pitched tents. And horseshoes, as well. And learned to tie knots. And how to sail. And earned badges. And not ONCE did they seek to kick him out. Did he get teased? Oh yeah. And he took it well for the most part. As a matter of fact, he is still friends with my brothers and some of the other guys from the troop. At the last high school reunion, we met his partner and we all went out for drinks. He has no proclivity towards molesting young boys; didn't then, doesn't now. Most don't. Why does such a big deal have to be made about it now?
Flynne at August 21, 2012 8:17 AM
Listen, Buttercup, I didn't tell you to marry the guy. Your personal story is your own beeswax, you know?"
No, Crid, you didn't. But you all keep throwing single mother around and I just want to be clear about the reason I'm a single mother. And also, let me be clear..my ex was abusive. I know too many men who are wonderful examples of what a man should be to blame all men because my ex is a loser. I'm not bitter against men nor do I think all share his abusive trait.
"But if we talk about it, suddenly it's all about "abusive" and ball-coach perverts and not having friends and the most personal sorrows that can be described."
No Crid. You all use the pervert angle as a reason its ok to discriminate. What is the reason behind banning gays from a group then? They are being banned and a "diverse" panel came together and came to all came to the exact same conclusion, to continue banning gays.
Kristen at August 21, 2012 8:23 AM
"Why does such a big deal have to be made about it now?"
Because it's fucking political. And i HATE that shit.
Exact same story I heard from my Fiance - an Eagle Scout. But everyone but the "alpha" got teased - mercilessly. Only if it was well over the line did the adults step in - because, that is part of how things work at those camp outs.
Reminds me of the part in Grand Torino, where Clint Eastwood takes that boy to the barbershop...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXD8yOxIPB0
Feebie at August 21, 2012 8:23 AM
Flynne, the big deal is being made because the Boy Scouts of America put together a "diverse" group to examine the policy against gays. That "diverse" group decided that banning gays is what they should do. Personally, I feel they are a private organization and have the right to decide whatever they want. But it is the reason my sons never joined which happens to be my right.
I didn't bring this up or make shine light on it in the news. They did when they made their announcement about why they will continue with their policy. I think its discriminatory. Btw, the kid my daughter knows is on the Eagle Scout path which is confusing as hell to me. His parents have been extremely supportive of his coming out and I couldn't imagine having my kid in a group that has publicly come out as banning homosexuals from their group. But to each his own.
Kristen at August 21, 2012 8:27 AM
"His parents have been extremely supportive of his coming out and I couldn't imagine having my kid in a group that has publicly come out as banning homosexuals from their group. But to each his own."
His parents still married, right?
See the movie clip above.
Feebie at August 21, 2012 8:32 AM
Kristen.
No one in the Boy Scouts or the Girl Scouts were banning people before solely based on sexual preferences.
It wasn't until this became political, where a private organization decided to put policies together so that sanctamonious asshats with political agendas weren't dictating how they choose to run their organization.
In my personal opinion, it gives them the ability to kick out all the lefty-gay-agenda driven jerks using a children's institution to push their political CRAPPOLA - while, probably, as it always has been - on the downlow, overlook the "policy" for gay kids who just wanted to be treated like everyone else and earn merit badges and be Eagle Scouts.
The girl scouts have already lost....they have planned parenthood talking about how to put condoms on penises, birth control and homosexuality..... It isn't about bonding, unity and togetherness....it's about political grooming.
I am 100% supportive of the Boy Scouts.
Feebie at August 21, 2012 8:37 AM
> I just want to be clear about the reason I'm a
> single mother.
BUT I DON'T CARE. No one cares about the precious & unique snowflake details preceding your outcome... We've got too many of these things happening to pretend that you were in an especially vulnerable situation. We can already guess that someone was a bad judge of someone else's character; either you, or your husband, or both. You needn't grovel further and say It was obviously me.
But whether you present your heartache as a badge of honor ("Next time my ex-husband threatens to kill me in front of...") or whether you don't, it doesn't recommend your insight into the handling of masculine development for juniors.
M'kay?
Nor is there anything too impressive about your notation of the "diverse" scout "panel." When someone like you uses the word "diverse" to describe others, it only warns me that they too will bludgeon our conversation with tales of weakness and hurt from their own lives, as if they'd therefore learned something about strength. (By not having enough.)
Blech.
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at August 21, 2012 8:41 AM
They did when they made their announcement about why they will continue with their policy.
Well my brothers' friend was in the Scouts in the 70s, and whether or not they had a "policy" then doesn't seem to have mattered, which is what I'm getting at. Back then, IT WASN'T AN ISSUE. Why is it now? And why oh why wouldn't you let your sons join anyway? Because they were "discriminatory"? According to my bros and their friend, no one was examining anyone else that closely back then. It didn't matter. Why does it now? I think Feebie nailed it: it's "political". Which makes me ill.
Great clip, Feebs.
Flynne at August 21, 2012 8:42 AM
BUT I DON'T CARE.
You must because you throw it around so much.
Back then, IT WASN'T AN ISSUE.
Flynne, it was always an issue. Just because a troop didn't act on it does not mean it wasn't an issue. The troop my daughter's friend belongs to is also not acting on the policy. But should he want to be a Leader one day, he wouldn't be allowed.
Kristen at August 21, 2012 8:47 AM
"Flynne, it was always an issue."
But...but...but...you said, you weren't involved in it so how would You know?
"Just because a troop didn't act on it does not mean it wasn't an issue."
How would you know? You didn't allow your boys to participate...how would you know?
"The troop my daughter's friend belongs to is also not acting on the policy. But should he want to be a Leader one day, he wouldn't be allowed."
How do you KNOW!?!??!!?!?!?
Feebie at August 21, 2012 8:51 AM
(RE: Movie Clip - thanks, Flynne....one of my favs).
:-)
Feebie at August 21, 2012 8:51 AM
> You must because you throw it around so much.
Feebs made a clean bust; there's good reason to suspect your judgment of the Boy Scouts, especially where you regard such circles as "role models."
"No no." Also, "Po po," whatever that is.
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at August 21, 2012 8:57 AM
One of my faves, too, Feebie. I had a Gran Torino, a 1970 landau hardtop, black on brown, engine was a 302 with a 2 barrel carb. Man, I miss that car!
Crid, "po po" is ghetto slang for "police". Wouldn't have thought Kristen would've used it, though...unless it's because her ex is a cop?
Flynne at August 21, 2012 9:03 AM
How would you know? You didn't allow your boys to participate...how would you know?
Feebie, I knew because my youngest became a Cub Scout. While in the group there was a discussion about gays and relief that those "gay pedophiles" would get thrown out. (Troop leader's words) I did a little research, looked on Boy Scout site, and saw that if a leader were known to be gay he would be asked to leave Boy Scouts and forbidden to participate in any activities. It wasn't hard to find as they were pretty open with their policy.
As far as my daughter's friend. He spoke with the group leader who told him if he kept quiet about it, nothing would be done to expel him.
That's how I know.
Crid, Po Po is what us single moms teach our wayward sons and promiscuous daughters to call the 5 oh, fuzz, etc. I guess its just in my degenerate circles.
Kristen at August 21, 2012 9:06 AM
I had an Oceanography teacher in highschool who once referred to a blue whale's erect male member as his "po-po".
We laughed through the awkwardness.
Seriously. It was a sight that would make your eyes water for the female.
Feebie at August 21, 2012 9:15 AM
My son is 18 and made Eagle at age 16. We've been involved in scouting since he was 6.
Seriously, by the time the boys get into boy scouts (around age 11, sixth grade, right before middle school) they are just figuring out their dynamic with other kids. My son's troop seemed to get mostly boys that were slightly (or more) socially awkward. Maybe shy. Boys that were athletic superstars on baseball or football teams tend not to join because to time conflicts. And we (the adults) always kept the meetings and outings to be "safe places" for boys. All boys. We had a couple in the troop that might have been gay but nobody cared. We talk about first aid and navigating with a compass and citizenship. How to start fires and how to plan a menu for backpacking. How to layer your clothing and prevent hypothermia. We never had any adults offer to join that weren't also parents of the boys.
Not once did we have conversations about sex. Ever. I never overheard the boys talking about girls, either. Video games, cars, pocketknives, sports and food. And big bugs.
LauraGr at August 21, 2012 9:18 AM
See!!?!??!?!?!?!?
Thanks, LauraGr.
No. One. Cared.
Feebie at August 21, 2012 9:24 AM
> its just in my degenerate circles.
Perhaps.
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at August 21, 2012 9:32 AM
Seriously, no one so eager to repeated share 'But he was ABUSIVE' should be surprised when others take note of a divorce. That's what you wanted, right?
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at August 21, 2012 9:34 AM
Did they ever ask if they could join?
If so, did you talk them out of it? Or did you simply dictate they could not join? Did you let them present their case for joining and give it a fair hearing?
Or did they never ask and you are taking credit for being noble when inertia solved your problem for you?
I'm keeping mine. I earned it.
Back then, fewer than one out of every 100 boys who joined earned that badge. I am the 1%.
They happen to exist inside the Boy Scouts, too.
Nor to have two kids with him.
Boy Scouts lean toward religion and include "duty to God" in their oath.
The religions in which Scouts can earn medals include Hinduism, Islam, Judaism, Christianity (several variants), and other religions.
There's some diversity for you.
Conan the Grammarian at August 21, 2012 9:37 AM
Oh. Re -read. Clarity- couple of -boys- might have been gay.
Po Po = Pissed Off Police. Fairly common slang almost everywhere in the US.
LauraGr at August 21, 2012 9:44 AM
> Po Po = Pissed Off Police. Fairly common slang
> almost everywhere in the US
Been a few years since I really pissed off a cop.
Nowadays I give that authority-challenging energy to over-controlling bloggers.
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at August 21, 2012 9:51 AM
Oh, I found something...
"My sons were never allowed to join the Boy Scouts because I felt their policy was discriminatory."
and...
"Feebie, I knew because my youngest became a Cub Scout"
So, which is it?
Feebie at August 21, 2012 9:52 AM
Flynne: "But Kristen. My brothers' friend didn't get kicked out. He was allowed to join. They went camping. They pitched tents."
Pitching tents may have been a poor example to use, considering the topic.
-Jut
JutGory at August 21, 2012 10:11 AM
> There's some diversity for you.
Indeed. I very badly wish every young man, including every gay (or just gay-seeming or gay-trending or kinda-swish or flaming-Mimi) young man in America aspired to be an Eagle Scout. They'd be better men if they did, including in all the really gross, cootie gay ways.
But it's not my organization to command. I was Cub, but only for a year or so.
Meanwhile, Monica is perfectly correct:
> And the people who grew up in their organization
> can do whatever they want with those badges,
> and can protest their policies in whatever legal
> way they please.
Same as the Chick Fil A thing. You wanna eat a chicken sandwich, enjoy. If you don't, not a problem.
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at August 21, 2012 10:14 AM
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at August 21, 2012 10:18 AM
Also.
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at August 21, 2012 10:20 AM
Amy, don't you think it worthwhile to include the Scouts position on this?
Here, as a free public service, it is (emphasis added):
Yep, that is heinous, no doubt about it.
Jeff Guinn at August 21, 2012 10:29 AM
Irony:
Woman with abusive ex-husband is irate about Boy Scout policy, forbids children from learning from male role models because of her own feelings about gay rights.
Radwaste at August 21, 2012 10:30 AM
I want to have Freebie's spit and vinegar again. Going to talk to my doctor about Tesosterone replacement next week. I think Crid would agree that Freebie doesn't do bad for a girl.
Crid, when I was at Cal State LA, living with 5 guys in a condemned house (for future freeway purchases - Thanks Gov. Reagan), one of the guys got very drunk, and asked the chick he was hustling at a bar if he could put his po po in her pee pee. As I recall, drop dead was her response.
Dave B at August 21, 2012 10:35 AM
"I want to have Freebie's spit and vinegar again. Going to talk to my doctor about Tesosterone replacement next week. I think Crid would agree that Freebie doesn't do bad for a girl."
o.O
No, "r" there cupcake.
Feebie at August 21, 2012 10:44 AM
While we are at it, the Boy Scouts also exclude atheists. Just as heinous, right?
My son became an Eagle Scout just before he turned 17 (he ages out next week). He, my wife and I would each have to be in permanent vegetative states to care any less about religion than we did all along.
What this is all about is egoism. Most Scouting parents are religious, and the organization reflects the attitudes of the majority of its members. One of those attitudes is that morality is impossible without believing in some deity. Obviously, that is a religious belief (as is its opposite, BTW).
If my wife and I wanted our son to enjoy the benefits of Scouting (Scout Law: A Scout is: trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean, and reverent.) then all we had to do was not make it about us. The religious element was minimal, and easy to ignore. Unless we insisted on shoving our atheism down their throats, no one was going to care.
And why should we? How arrogant is it to antagonize almost everyone else in the organization? Doing so would have amounted to insisting the vast majority of the parents and boys to deal with a small minority on a decidedly peripheral issue.
Just so with gay scouts.
No one in Scouting is making a list and checking it twice. Those who insist on being loud and proud about their homosexuality are egoists of the first order, imposing something that Scouting isn't about on the 97% or so of people who aren't gay.
Really, just get over yourselves.
Jeff Guinn at August 21, 2012 10:46 AM
"Oh, I found something...
"My sons were never allowed to join the Boy Scouts because I felt their policy was discriminatory."
and...
"Feebie, I knew because my youngest became a Cub Scout"
So, which is it?" Feebie
Cub Scouts is from age 6 thru 5th grade. Boy Scouts is from 6th grade thru age 18.
LauraGr at August 21, 2012 10:49 AM
Ahhkay, thanks LauraGr.
Feebie at August 21, 2012 10:50 AM
I knew that, but the connection between my fingers and brain have great difficulty typing Feebie without the r. Ironic now that I see how this is just the opposite of you.
Dave B at August 21, 2012 10:53 AM
> I want to have Freebie's spit and vinegar again.
Send her a test tube with a cork and a SASE; I'm sure she'll do what she can.
> if he could put his po po in her pee pee. As I
> recall, drop dead was her response.
Appropriate alliteration.
> Irony:
So it's not just me. Where were you guys, anyway? I was starting to feel bad for giving her a hard time. I know I shouldn't be sentimental, but we're only human.
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at August 21, 2012 10:56 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2012/08/21/men_return_thei.html#comment-3311352">comment from Jeff GuinnThose who insist on being loud and proud about their homosexuality are egoists of the first order,
Oh, please. Ever talked to a gay person about what it was like to be young and suspect you weren't like other people? Children are not running around in gayday parades with those pants with the buttcircles cut out.
Amy Alkon at August 21, 2012 10:56 AM
Here is a short list of the things my son did while in Scouting: Week long canoe trip, hiking the Chilkoot Trail, deep winter backpacking (in Alaska, that means something), backpacking in the Valley of a 1000 Smokes, and to the Aniakchak Caldera, marksmanship, Scuba Diving.
I could go on.
But you will notice not one of those things, or any other I could mention has the first darn thing to do with sex.
However, since you and so many others insist on doing otherwise, lets take your argument where it must go.
Either sexuality is all about plumbing, or it is something that is that is only correlated. You can't have it both ways.
Yet that is what gays insist upon. They want to be loud and proud in the Scouts solely on account of plumbing, sexual behavior be damned. But the reason they are loud and proud isn't because of their plumbing, but rather their behavior.
And it precisely the behavior that is at issue. If you insist that boys who are sexually attracted to other boys be in Scouts, then on what basis do you exclude boys who are attracted to girls be excluded from the Girl Scouts?
Jeff Guinn at August 21, 2012 10:57 AM
Thing is, you know everything that's great about America? I mean REALLY great?
Boy Scouts built it. Complain about the hegemonic exclusionary whatever, but you live here for a reason.
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at August 21, 2012 10:57 AM
Thing is, you know everything that's great about America? I mean REALLY great?
Boy Scouts built it. Complain about the hegemonic exclusionary whatever, but you live here for a reason.
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at August 21, 2012 10:57 AM
> what it was like to be young and suspect you
> weren't like other people?
Oh Amy, give • it • up.
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at August 21, 2012 11:01 AM
> what it was like to be young and suspect you
> weren't like other people?
It sucked. Worse yet, I wasn't gay.
Dave B at August 21, 2012 11:10 AM
crid, if you really were as disinterested in this as you claim you wouldnt have commented at all, but given you scrambled to be the first to post . . .
lujlp at August 21, 2012 11:15 AM
Threadwin: DB
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at August 21, 2012 11:16 AM
Let's all sing it together.
(I dibbs the bangbang thing on guitar just before the chorus.)
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at August 21, 2012 11:21 AM
Not every person fits in everywhere, regardless of their sexual inclinations. We had lots of boys drop scouting. It is not for everyone. Many boys don't like the responsibility, or the work. The boys plan their own menus, do their own shopping (an adult drives), do their own cooking, their own clean up. They pitch tents and must work with a buddy to get things done. Some boys would rather stand around with their hands in their pockets. Some boys would rather complain. Some boys would rather stay home and play nintendo than camp in the rain or get out in the elements or stretch beyond their comfort zone with a climbing wall. The boys learn how to learn, how to lead, how to follow, how to teach. They do thousands of hours of community service if they stay active until age 18. They learn to negotiate and deal with difficult personalities. They learn to respect differences in opinion. None of that has anything to do with attraction or sexuality.
Every kid doesn't fit in sometime. Early to puberty or late. Accelerated classes or slow. Athletically talented or the opposite. It doesn't have to be about sex. Why make it about sex? They are kids.
LauraGr at August 21, 2012 11:26 AM
"What is the reason behind banning gays from a group then? They are being banned and a "diverse" panel came together and came to all came to the exact same conclusion, to continue banning gays."
I got your diverse panel right here. The Girl Scouts officers of the board of directors are all women, and of the 25-odd members at large, all but four or so are women. Let's just say that I, middle-aged straight man with no children of my own, calls up the Girl Scouts and volunteers to be a troop leader. What do you think they are going to say? Hmm? Are they going to welcome me for my "diversity"? Or are they going to say, as is often the case these days, "straight middle aged white male, he could be a perv, no way we let him in"?
And the thing is: the Girl Scouts are right, albeit for the wrong reasons. Not because I'm a straight man per se, and not because there's a high likelihood that I'm going to be moshing on the girls. But because the whole point of the Girl Scouts is (or it least it used to be) to teach girls how to become adult, self-reliant women. And I'm not the person who can be the role model that they need as a troop leader, and I could never be that person. Because, well, I'm male. Some limits you just have to accept. And if I sue, I'll be laughed out of court (and rightly so).
However: we have here established the principle that it's okay for one organization to discriminate against a gender/sex preference combination. But it's not okay for another organization with a very similar purpose to do the same thing? Is it because the Boy Scouts is about boys? Is it? Hmm?
Cousin Dave at August 21, 2012 11:38 AM
"I think Crid would agree that Freebie doesn't do bad for a girl."
We agreed to let her into the clubhouse, but only on Tuesdays.
Cousin Dave at August 21, 2012 11:43 AM
Lookoolpiddlestick---
> if you really were as disinterested in this
> as you claim
I'm always interested in teasing Amy. (I think it's because my sister was a redhead.)
> but given you scrambled to be the first to post . . .
No, I just get up for work in the morning. This used to happen to me during scuba dives, too. People thought I was the leader, but I was just always in front. It's what happens to the spirited ones.
Is there anything to your life besides playing imaginary games of "gotcha" with me here? Opinions, insights, people, readings, other sources of information in your life? See the earlier thread— I'm pretty sure you're a joke account run by Amy's boyfriend or another commenter. There's no other explanation for your obsession with making snotchild comments towards me and me alone. You're my own personal Wile E. Coyote.
Meep, motherfucker. Try the Acme hemlock next.
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at August 21, 2012 11:44 AM
"I knew that, but the connection between my fingers and brain have great difficulty typing Feebie without the r. Ironic now that I see how this is just the opposite of you."
:-)
Look. I don’t know about testosterone (but I am recently pregnant, so maybe we have a boy on board?), but I really hate what our society has done to men and to families and to culture. I really dislike what a certain segment is trying to do to organizations like the Boy Scouts. The Boy Scouts and other similar organizations have been created (through voluntary membership & dues, goodwill, charity and generosity) to provide a lot of young men with the necessary skill sets in life to achieve happiness, success and their rightful place as a citizen in this nation, which is in my opinion, their natural birthright as an Americans.
This is also where government and our deteriorating (collectivist) society has absolutely failed, time and time again and for obvious reasons.
I grew up in California. I experienced a type of mushy, emotional, codependent, narcissistic, collectivist thinking that was imbued so much in that Statist culture - I am still trying to unpack it all out of my belief systems.
My piss and vinegar is no doubt a residual (perhaps even OVER) reaction to my growing disgust at being forced into such a socially manipulative and coercive political grooming process by the adults and teachers around me who claimed they "knew what was best".
I'm totally done with this coddling the victim, dependency, validation of feelings, everyone get’s a trophy no one should experience any bad feelings…. horseshit. These imbedded ideas cripple souls – but no one seems to care what they push on to others because it makes them feel better, like Kristen over here – for not allowing her children to participate in Boy Scouts because of her own warped sense of fairness (gradiosity?).
I wish I had stayed in Girl Scouts longer, but to tell you the truth - when my fiancé and I jokingly spar about whose experience in which organization had the real foundational backbone – I have to concede – his experience in the Boy Scouts provided him with much more in terms of character building and skill sets. I associate that solely on account of the MEN involved (gay or straight).
Feebie at August 21, 2012 11:44 AM
> I got your diverse panel right here. The Girl
> Scouts officers of the board of directors are
> all women, and of the 25-odd members at
> large, all but four or so are women
Boom. Cuz Dee drops the hammer.
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at August 21, 2012 11:45 AM
Both operate under the aegis of the Boy Scouts of American organization.
Conan the Grammarian at August 21, 2012 11:48 AM
The men who returned their Eagle's are naive dipshits. They do not understand the adult males who are driven to suck TEEN male cock (I'm not talking about Cub Scout age Cub Scouts).
Homosexual men have no business being allowed into Boy Scouts.
Would you permit a 22 year old male who'll bring pot & beer to teen girls in Girl Scouts to have sex w/them & get blowjobs from them to be a Girl Scout Leader? Nope.
I'mmm not talking about pedophiles. I'm talking about homosexual men.
adambein at August 21, 2012 12:26 PM
Po Po Head.
http://www.reutersgallery.com/reutersgallery/?mode=view&id=1060
Feebie at August 21, 2012 12:37 PM
> Homosexual men have no business being
> allowed into Boy Scouts.
There's no doubt that there are plenty of heterosexual men who have things to contribute to Girl Scout troops... Things including leadership and lesser levels of support.
It's difficult to believe that no homosexual men could be just as useful to the Boy Scouts.
There's more to life than tail.
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at August 21, 2012 1:01 PM
No, really. There is.
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at August 21, 2012 1:02 PM
Not that they would have a chance to find out.
Once upon a time, my daughter went on a Girl Scout "campout". I tried to go along.
You would have thought I was a defrocked priest.
Two things. First, my brother is gay, so yes, I have. Second, it is the very definition of egoism gays to force their sexuality on an organization that has nothing to do with sex of any kind. The only accommodation they are asked to make is to just keep a sock on it -- precisely the same accommodation everyone else has to make.
One of the characteristics of collectivism is the drive to stamp out civil organizations and all dissenting opinion. Requiring the Scouts to accept openly homosexual members would destroy the organization. Most of the parents, when confronted with gay scoutmasters or scouts on extended trips are going to respond with something along the lines of "Are you out of your mind? Did you learn nothing from the Catholic Church and altar boys?"
Still wondering: why don't the Girl Scouts accept gay boys?
Jeff Guinn at August 21, 2012 2:13 PM
While we are at it, the Boy Scouts also exclude atheists. Just as heinous, right?
I think so, yes, but I'm just as happy to leave them to it legally. If adult Boy Scouts start tossing in their badges over the issue, I will be just as happy to see them change the policy.
MonicaP at August 21, 2012 2:15 PM
> If adult Boy Scouts start tossing in their badges
> over the issue, I will be just as happy to see
> them change the policy.
Well, call me a closet queen, but back in the day, I found it easy enough to pass.
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at August 21, 2012 2:59 PM
"Hey Scouts, what do you think of a trip to the botanical gardens to help a few of you on your Environmental Science patch which you all know is required. My girlfriend and I went last week and the director was a scout once himself and he said we can have the whole place to ourselves after hours next weekend"
"Hey Scouts, what do you think of a trip to the botanical gardens to help a few of you on your Environmental Science patch which you all know is required. My boyfriend and I went last week and the director was a scout once himself and he said we can have the whole place to ourselves after hours next weekend"
According to Feebie, crid, and a few others the second statement is all about ass fucking, craming sex (and possibly cock) down children's throats and grooming children in PCedness and possibly for molestation and perfectly acceptable grounds to remove the troop leader
lujlp at August 21, 2012 3:00 PM
call me a closet queen,
Is that like a dancing queen? Because...actually, that would be pretty awesome.
MonicaP at August 21, 2012 3:09 PM
ThAt may have been whAt you read luj, but it ain't even close to what I said.
Feebie at August 21, 2012 3:16 PM
Is there anything to your life besides playing imaginary games of "gotcha" with me here?
Well I jerk off a bit, quite alot now that I think about it. But it isnt really just about you, though you are a favorite of mine. Its about stupidity and the incongruities of the way you constantly, and voluminously, have to tell everyone who little you actually care.
Opinions, insights, people, readings, other sources of information in your life?
Sentence fragment, consider revising. Either place a ";" in pace of the the first "?", or add "Are there any" to the start of that question
See the earlier thread— I'm pretty sure you're a joke account run by Amy's boyfriend or another commenter.
People who criticize others spelling should watch there own. And if your assertion were true It be quite the bit of work, what with years of comments, including during your hiatus, just to insult you know. Your narcissism is getting worse.
There's no other explanation for your obsession with making snotchild comments towards me and me alone.
Sure there is!! Remember the times you claimed by dyslexia was nothing more than stupidity, laziness, and apathy. Or the time you claimed all abuse victims(not just the adult one) basically deserved what they got because they wouldnt leave?
You're my own personal Wile E. Coyote.
That assumes I never "got" you. Which we both know isnt true
lujlp at August 21, 2012 3:22 PM
But didnt you say you agreed with the policy to bar any openly gay men, and that allowing openly gay men was all about exposing children to gay sex?
Cause if not I apologise, but that was the gist I picked up from your comments
lujlp at August 21, 2012 3:25 PM
> Is that like a dancing queen? Because...
> actually, that would be pretty awesome
Well, I'm having the time of my life.
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at August 21, 2012 3:28 PM
You'd better apologize to Feebie (look no r - took me twice) luj cause today is Tuesday, and today she's one of us guys.
p.s. I always have questioned your reading comprehension.
Dave B at August 21, 2012 3:41 PM
Any examples sprig to mind?
lujlp at August 21, 2012 3:47 PM
I wish I had stayed in Girl Scouts longer...
Really? I quit the troop while my mom was the leader (she didn't mind--she's great) and wish I'd done it sooner. At least the Boy Scouts do cool stuff. The Girl Scouts were campfire songs and cookie pushing.
Astra at August 21, 2012 3:49 PM
The Girl Scouts were campfire songs and cookie pushing.
Totally. We didn't even get campfire songs. Once, we got to sleep at the New York Hall of Science. The Girl Scouts sucked.
MonicaP at August 21, 2012 3:53 PM
Didn't you do badge stuff?
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at August 21, 2012 3:53 PM
Are you talkin to me? ARE you talkin to ME?
Sure. Just to make it easy on my old memory, how about your according to Feebie, crid and a few others nonsense above. You had many opportunities to understand what Feebie was saying, she made many posts, but you failed in your guttersnipe.
Tell me the tale of how you "got" crid when you get a chance.
Dave B at August 21, 2012 4:00 PM
Didn't you do badge stuff?
The badges were lame, like the child care badge. I think there was even a shopping badge. The pressure to sell lots of cookies was huge. I always wanted to be a Boy Scout. A male friend was learning how to fish and make rope knots while I was learning how to dial 911 if the kid I was baby sitting had a seizure or something.
MonicaP at August 21, 2012 4:07 PM
Yes, I can relate to the lamp badge projects, they were fluffy. But some weren't. We went to nursing homes and gave out holiday gifts and visited with patients. We helped pick up trash at parks. Groomed and rode horses. Went hiking. Did camping (my favorite) and learned some sign language. Visited and gave gifts to special needs kids.
But I hear about what my fiancé did, and i was thinking - wow, I got ripped off. Boy scouts did a lot of community service bit IMHO got a lot more life skills (conflict resolution from adult mature males!) just with the whole leadership aspect of things.
Our troop MOms were kinda mental. They definitely had issues.
Feebie at August 21, 2012 4:24 PM
Um, lamp badges? Lets try that again.
Lame badges! Lame!!!!
Feebie at August 21, 2012 4:27 PM
So can I. I got a lamp badge. I built a lamp as a project for a home repair badge. I still have the lamp.
Conan the Grammarian at August 21, 2012 5:07 PM
"So can I. I got a lamp badge. I built a lamp as a project for a home repair badge. I still have the lamp."
Bahhhh! You SEE! Green with envy.
Feebie at August 21, 2012 5:17 PM
Calls to mind a joke.
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at August 21, 2012 5:41 PM
fuckfuckfuck, SPRING to mind
Thats the problem with spell check, spells the words right, but may not give you the right word
lujlp at August 21, 2012 6:09 PM
Didn't you do badge stuff?
I should ask my Mom--I stayed in Brownies and Girl Scouts for several years so I suspect I'm mainly remembering the end when I say it was lame. I think we did go camping and have fun meetings but what I remember now are badges like sewing (ugh), learning how to conduct a flag ceremony (the boys learn that too, right?), and the massive sales pressure. Cookies weren't even the worst. One year, they pushed us to sell Girl Scout calendars. At least people want cookies.
Astra at August 21, 2012 6:43 PM
Astra, those calendars had been completely blocked out of my noodle...until just now. Gaahhhh!
My fiance and his two brothers are Eagle Scouts and his father was one of the troop leaders for several years and I consider it one of the biggest treats to sit in the middle of them at the dinner table during the holidays and listen to those four reminisce about their badges and camp outs and projects.
I saw my fiance's Eagle Scout project over this spring. It was amazing. He explained to me all the planning and work and organizing that he put into it - the business' and other Scout members that assisted with the materials and equipment. It was quite a thing to see. It is still there, years later, for the community to enjoy.
Feebie at August 21, 2012 6:54 PM
The shortbread. 2 boxes... Yeah. Here ya go, kid. Thanks. See you next year.
Haters gonna hate, y'know? I loved them even more before they gave them a French name. (Gay!) Ah, Wikipedia remembers— Back in the day they were "Scot-Teas (Burry): Shortbread cookies with sprinkled sugar."
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at August 21, 2012 6:58 PM
(pigginablankit)
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at August 21, 2012 7:07 PM
I didn't read all 123 comments -- but I figured it was time to throw an 800 pound gorilla into this discussion.
United States Code
TITLE 36 - PATRIOTIC AND NATIONAL OBSERVANCES, CEREMONIES, AND ORGANIZATIONS
CHAPTER 803 - GIRL SCOUTS OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
Sec. 80307. Annual report[1]
Not later than April 1 of each year, the corporation shall submit a report to Congress on the activities of the corporation during the prior fiscal year. The report shall be printed each year, with accompanying illustrations, as a separate House document of the session of the Congress to which the report is submitted.
CHAPTER 309 - BOY SCOUTS OF AMERICA
Sec. 30908. Annual report[2]
Not later than April 1 of each year, the corporation shall submit a report to Congress on the activities of the corporation during the prior calendar year.
Now, since the both the BSA and GSA are federally chartered aren't they subject EEOC rules that the NFL and MLB are required to follow, let alone any college or university that accepts government money?
Just asking?
[1] usscouts.org/gsusa/gsusacharter.asp
[2] usscouts.org/aboutbsa/bsacharter.asp
Jim P. at August 21, 2012 7:07 PM
Tag-a-longs for me, man I just dig that chocolate-peanut butter combo. Takes me back...
Oh and a box of thin mints for my mom, she loves those.
Flynne at August 21, 2012 7:09 PM
EEOC rules? Specifically dealing with employment, right?
So are you referring to persons hired by that organization, or voluntary participation by the scouts?
Feebie at August 21, 2012 7:16 PM
Jim P.
From what limited access I have to court cases, it would appear that courts have continually upheld that the Boy Scouts, despite having a Congressional Charter, are not subject to anti-discrimination laws.
It's a First Amendment thing:
BOY SCOUTS OF AMERICA et al. v. DALE
http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/search/display.html?terms=System&url=/supct/html/99-699.ZS.html
Note, the petitioner (Dale) in this case was an "avowed gay rights activist", not a former Eagle Scout who happened to be gay. No agenda pushing there...I am sure.
Feebie at August 21, 2012 7:32 PM
Wow, no offense intended, but there is a lot of jibber jabber from folks who are neither gay nor scouts. May I, who fits both descriptions, weigh in with my two cents worth?
First, being gay and having been a scout are not the total me - nor have they ever been. But they are/were a big part of my life.
Second, I will say this - Yes, Amy is right in that those of us who are gay have always known that we were "different." Today, I would imagine that kids (yes, kids) know very well what "gay" means. So, the scouts including openly gay folks would not be teaching them anything they don't already know. Except, perhaps, having a gay scoutmaster as a positive role model might just teach them acceptance of those who are different from themselves - and that used to be a part of scouting - accepting others!
Thirdly, I did not go to the school in my hometown, I went to a parochial school in another town. While this was not a problem it did make me feel somewhat different as my family was not the same religion as that school nor did my family have as much money as most of those folks did. (but, you couldn't beat their education, which is why I went there). I didn't go to school with the kids in my neighborhood, so I was different there too. Often when playing with the neighbor kids they would start talking about something funny that happened in school - well, I couldn't related as I wasn't there - I was out of the loop on that! None of this was a real problem; but, it did make me feel different. (and knowing that I was already different didn't help me as a 12-year old)
But, then came Scouting. Scouting didn't care that I went to a different school, scouting didn't care that I was a different religion, scouting didn't care how much or, in my case, how little money my family had. Scouting cared about who could do what. It was truly a meritocracy. You were ranked by what you accomplished and formally recognized for your achievements. period.
There was no judging by your peers as to whether your wore cool clothes or a stupid school uniform. Scouting peers didn't care if you said your prayers in a different way (and in my troop, they didn't care if you didn't say them at all, as long as you allowed others to say theirs). Scouting cared about what you could do. period. Scouting was the first (allbeit, not the last) organization that I joined which valued me as me and not some supposed image of me. Scouting was the first organization that I joined in which I truly did NOT feel different; I felt as if I belonged. THAT is what scouting did for me.
I felt that I belonged. That, to me, was what scouting was all about.
Telling a cub scout that he cannot join because he has two mothers; or telling an eagle scout that he cannot be beneficial to others as a scout master because he now lives as an openly gay man is not what scouting was to me. (and I suspect to a lot of other folks too)
In my opinion, the Boy Scouts of the USA have lost their bearing and that is why so many have decided to "politicize" this issue. We want the scouts to be what they once aspired to be - an inclusive organization that was based on mutual respect and meritocracy. Why is that now considered too much to ask for?
Charles at August 21, 2012 7:41 PM
I'm too tired to scroll back to where Luj makes the most sense. Thanks, Luj, for getting it. They were the ones that insinuated there was something dangerous about allowing gays in. Then when I pushed about the shower incident with the unshaven which apparently also means lesbian, girl, they changed direction. I didn't realize that anyone was trying to force young kids to discuss sexual positions or partners in graphic description. I think the Boy Scouts were the ones to make an announcement that they were going to continue an age old police after a 2 year exploration. When did a 10 year old boy being attracted to another 10 year old boy become so dangerous?
And Feebie, in case it wasn't cleared up for you. I let my oldest son joing Cub Scouts. It was when I heard other moms and the leader talking that I looked into it more. And yes, I explained it to my kids what my reasoning was. Since they had people they loved who were gay, they didn't want to belong to an organization that discriminated against their loved ones. So in that respect, my kids were fucking noble. And I'm very proud!
Kristen at August 21, 2012 7:50 PM
"We want the scouts to be what they once aspired to be -"
Well Charles, the scouts will say they have never changed their aspirations. You want them to change and you are the one politicizing the issue.
I don't think you read all the posts.
Dave B at August 21, 2012 8:07 PM
I didn't/don't know which particular section of the U.S.C. applied, so I threw it out there as a steaming pile. :-)
My point was that I expected the 800 lb gorilla to be involved in this. That it isn't -- I'm going to just say -- homosexuality shouldn't be a factor.
But if I were to be a Scout/Pack leader and of any orientation -- I would practically require that some other adult was always in the room to protect me from false accusations.
Jim P. at August 21, 2012 8:31 PM
My nephew, who's mom is now a lesbian, once thought about joining the scouts. But when he realized they were anti-gay, said they could go fuck themselves. He was 10. I high fived him. But it's really too bad. I have a friend who does lots of fun stuff with his two boys and the scouts. But the last thing I would do is suggest my nephew join a bigoted organization, whatever their bias. Unless, of course it had nothing to do with me or mine. I'd probably be fine if they were bigoted against muslums. But then, I'm an asshole. Scouts aren't supposed to be assholes.
Assholio at August 21, 2012 9:24 PM
> I'm too tired to scroll back....
Tired?
> They were the ones that insinuated there was
> something dangerous about allowing gays in.
You can't scroll back far enough (on this blog or any other context) to find me saying anything of the kind.
Many of us may have suggested that it would be dangerous for an enterprise like the Boy Scouts of America to let people from outside, anyone, come in and configure it to their taste... But that's hardly same thing.
> When did a 10 year old boy being attracted to
> another 10 year old boy become so dangerous?
Who, precisely, said that it was? Sorry, you're going to have to use that computer "mouse" (under your right hand) to look back and tell us.
There may well have been someone saying that, but I sure don't recall it. (I'm a power-scanner; I read a few words in a comment and see if there's anything worth [or even better, disagreeing with] and then I keep going. So...) It's at least possible someone said that and I missed it.
But what's more probable is that this phenomenon is what happened a few days ago with Amy & TW: You're having the fight you want to have instead of the one being offered to you. Fisticuffs aplenty, but you won't grow from it, and you certainly won't persuade.
For pre-teen boys, corporeal matters are always more strange than intimidating. They're fascinated with the feel of a toad's skin and the sounds and smells of farts. A homosexual in the peer group isn't scary, even if the kid knows what it means (and most probably don't). Eroticism isn't scary when you're that age because there's no such thing.
Sagan once talked about how a four-dimensional creature could enter our three-dimensional world to simply appear before us... Just as if we stuck our finger into a two-dimensional realm, like dots on a piece of paper. The dot-beasts would see it suddenly in their flat world and think 'Where the Hell did THAT come from?' That's what the arrival of erotic feeling can be like to kids. Theretofore, it's not threatening because it's a dimension they can't perceive.
Your scenario of gay "danger" is bogus. A lot of kids in the troop are different from us in unpleasant ways. They pay attention to adults who aren't of interest, and they have slow (or aggressive) problem-solving habits, and we get used to having them around anyway.
Sexual identity isn't a factor. The reason the Scouts can be excused for being sticklers is the same reason I'd want 'gay young men' to join the group and get what they can out of it anyway, without disruption. (Certainly, no one should be compelled to pick a team so early, though it would certainly make things easier for yourself and Amy and everyone else who wants to view the world thought that lens. You are that eager to sympathize: What about the GAY kid??!??! I can imagine any number of fey & timid personalities [children!] seeing your index fingertips shining at them and saying 'Huh? Me???')
It's a heartbreak that more young men aren't able to take advantage of scouting. But there's much to admire in an institution that doesn't let its soul get trounced by busybodies who – against all evidence – imagine themselves to be more sophisticated about forging young souls.
In the largest view, the mission of the Scouts may be to give kids the bad news about the limitations of their lives, particularly the socials ones, while (or perhaps by) giving them tools to work around them. The social instruction is more about the people we don't like, or those with whom we most aggressively compete, than about those we hold most dear. For this to work (and it works gloriously), keeping screechy utopians at a distance may be essential.
(PS- If there's now a badge for cunnilingus, then I'm wrong about this. But I've haven't heard a lot of young women in the following generation raving about the practiced, humble grace of their partners.)
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at August 21, 2012 10:23 PM
Thank you. You're very kind... No, please. Thank you. Thanks. Thank you. Goodnight.
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at August 21, 2012 10:25 PM
"""But what's more probable is that this phenomenon is what happened a few days ago with Amy & TW: You're having the fight you want to have instead of the one being offered to you."""
I was reading this War and Peace thread. It's a good conversation for the most part. I'm of the mind -- just as with Chick Filet -- if you don't like the scouts because of X, start and/or join something else. For those who wanted to return their merit badges, more power to them. If their making a stand on what they believe to be right, again, more power to them. Further, any organization who needs to be loved and accepted by all is misguided. What I don't like is when politically motivated people are looking to use group X simply to advance their politics. However, political activities like that are as American as the proverbial apple pie.
But the cherry on top is getting to see Crid's pissy little comment toward me. Crid, you writing 1000 words is, believe me, the end all be all of one's view unambiguously defined by words. No really, no matter the length, no matter the run on for entertainment, there is no room for interpretation of your writing. It is the very definition of how a legal contract should be written. Really, really, really it is (introspection - a sometimes lost art!)
TW at August 22, 2012 12:17 AM
Hi Raddy!
Hi Raddy!
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at August 22, 2012 12:22 AM
Hi Raddy!
Hi...
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at August 22, 2012 12:23 AM
> pissy little comment toward me.
Well, y'know, when sumbuddy misstates my views that shamelessly, I figger it's Game On.
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at August 22, 2012 12:32 AM
Raddy— Zephers!
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at August 22, 2012 12:40 AM
Awwwww, do I have to support forcing the boy scouts to accept homosexuals because I was a loser in high school???
mpetrie98 at August 22, 2012 2:42 AM
Here is the totalitarianism of collectivists on parade. You insist on the primacy of your religious statement (which is most surely is), at the expense of the vast majority who don't share it. What's worse, you are quite happy to throw the baby out with the bathwater.
Personal cost of not shoving my family's religious beliefs in the face of the Scouts: $0
Benefits to my son from becoming an Eagle Scout: priceless
All wonderful sentiments, but that is what utopianism boils down to. A lot of folks are going to view gay scout masters in the same way as gay Catholic priests. And why shouldn't they?
Jeff Guinn at August 22, 2012 9:58 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2012/08/21/men_return_thei.html#comment-3312087">comment from Jeff GuinnA lot of folks are going to view gay scout masters in the same way as gay Catholic priests. And why shouldn't they?
Dumb. Straight priests molest, too. Being a pedophile, not being gay, is the problem.
And maybe people would learn that by having gay people they deal with on a personal level.
But, frankly, whose sexuality comes out as a scoutmaster, gay or straight? It's about rubbing two sticks together, etc.
Amy Alkon at August 22, 2012 10:01 AM
My parents put forth a lot of effort and money to help me achieve my Eagle Scout rank, with fundraising, helping to pay for camping equipment, and most of all, my dad teaching me enough about building materials and building things that the project was pretty simple to complete on my own, with limited advice from them. But I wouldn't give my badge back because this is A) a political thing, not necessarily a moral thing, and B) my parents actually paid for the physical badge (I know it's only $12, but still). I don't agree with scouting's decision, but they'll come around eventually, and forcing it onto troops that are based in churches is just plain ignorant. My troop was fairly secular and diverse, and frankly, wouldn't have given a rat's dirty butt if we had either gay scouts or scoutmasters with us.
spqr2008 at August 22, 2012 10:11 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2012/08/21/men_return_thei.html#comment-3312097">comment from spqr2008Re: based in churches
Per something I read the other day, it really does amaze me how nobody's embarrassed about believing in A Big Man In The Sky, simply because it's an approved delusion: one many people share.
Amy Alkon at August 22, 2012 10:21 AM
Between your shading the point and missing it entirely, I'm not sure where to start.
Gay priests, did, in fact, molest boys. Straight priests have, in fact, molested girls.
You utterly failing to note the severe restrictions on straight males leading, or being members of, Girl Scout troops.
Then you completely avoid reality by tossing in pedophilia as if it is some generic bad thing having nothing whatsoever to do with sexuality. News flash: males preying on boys are, by absolute definition, engaging in homosexuality. BTW, the vast majority of priestly sexual abuse victims were male. BTW 2: there are more than 3,000 sexual abuse lawsuits against the Catholic Church, just in the US.
But never mind all that. Parents who object to gay scout masters are just mindless bigots.
Did you even bother to look at the BSA statement? For Pete's sake, you just negated your whole point, such as it was.
Best to clean your finger before pointing out the mote in someone else's eye.
Jeff Guinn at August 22, 2012 12:29 PM
I thought South Park covered this very well.
Drive out the openly gay (attracted to grown men) leaders and you may end up with a Jerry Sandusky type, hiding in plain sight.
Gog_Magog_Carpet_Reclaimers at August 22, 2012 1:01 PM
"Best to clean your finger before pointing out the mote in someone else's eye."
Especially if it's been up your child victim's butt.
Gog_Magog_Carpet_Reclaimers at August 22, 2012 1:02 PM
"But, frankly, whose sexuality comes out as a scoutmaster, gay or straight? It's about rubbing two sticks together, etc."
This, folks, is where it comes down to brass tacks. Why are the Boy Scouts fighting this so hard? Because they do see it as an attempt to gain control of the organization by people who are opposed to its very existence. They do assume that said people will use their court-granted power to corrupt the Scouts into unrecognizability. They have some rational basis for thinking so: the Girl Scouts voluntarily embraced the leftist agenda and now they find it an essential part of their mission to teach 10-year-old girls how to put condoms on bananas. All the cool things they used to do, judging by the reports from the younger women here, seem to have disappeared. Gotta hawk those cookies, y'know. Where does all that money go?
Cousin Dave at August 22, 2012 1:13 PM
> Here is the totalitarianism of collectivists
> on parade.
Jeff, sincerely-
I acknowledge that Amy & Kristen have all sorts of childishly presumptuous ideas about the Scouting that need to be resisted. (And mocked!* Mustn't forget that part! Never forget that part!)
But some of the other jackbooted heathen fascist authoritarians on here, like Monica, are at least recognizing that the event sparking this blog post happened within the family, so to speak... A few Scouts have decided to surrender their badges and so forth. (I presume. I didn’t follow the links. The Atlantic had already pissed me off pretty well once yesterday.)
Because the thing is, I bet there have always been gays in the boy scouts, even though we never saw their erotic lives at work there. Troupe leaders (I forget what they're called), den mothers in (otherwise happy) hetero marriages, and so forth. There have always been gays in the army, too. And the church, and the schools, and the football team.... This is almost an incidental point, but if it's not my place as a scouting outsider to tell them how to deal with gays, it's neither within my purview to discourage any change whatsoever.
More importantly: Saying a change shouldn't come from the outside isn't the same as saying no change should ever come at all. Christian churches and many other institutions have refined themselves over the centuries as a consequence of dissent and action from within, as well as pressure from without. It wasn't pressure from Baptists or Scientology or and nation's government that made Vatican II happen.
Aren't you OK with that? The institution is there for its people, and not the other way around, right?
> Drive out the openly gay (attracted to grown
> men) leaders and you may end up with a Jerry
> Sandusky type, hiding in plain sight.
This is a really, really great point, Gog. You said it too plainly, so now I'm going hafta to stretch it out and make it smellier. There's a firm belief that broader sociological change fueled the Catholic nightmare so ferociously in the 20th (and maybe the 19th).
In prehistory, human life was brutal, but there was zero unemployment... Because if you didn't work, hard, dawn-to-dusk and probably some more, you didn't eat. In the past couple millenia, some (state) churches found a little room in the budgets, so they could offer a deal to a few selected players: If you give your life to service in the church, you’ll get a cot under a tight roof near a fireplace, a set of fairly clean, well-patched clothes, and three squares a day (sometimes one square a day and some scraps from the granary & some rinds from the pigpen)...
...At the cost of your sexuality.
This was a pretty good deal for many years. Sane & thoughtful priests and nuns signed the contract without regret... They weren’t planning on being hungover on Sunday morning anyway.
But after the industrial revolution, keeping fed and clothed was not such a big deal... Any Godless dishwasher could do as well with his dishrags and still have a couple hours free on Saturday night to chase tail without contractual encumbrance. So many of the guys who took the deal in the 20th century were guys who were going to have to keep their sexuality under wraps anyway.
I don’t think this is what’s happening in Scouts... Lesser parents aren’t even bothering to marry, to raise their children in their own homes, or to see them through their college educations, let alone support them in Scouting.
But Gog’s point reminds us to consider incentives and the incidental consequences of forbiddance.
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at August 22, 2012 2:52 PM
(I almost put this on the last Wednesday blog post, about valedictorians, but it fits here no less well.)
My dislike of Nora Epron has been one the sturdiest, best-constructed opinions in my whole life.
But this is a great line, and every 12-year-old should take it to heart.
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at August 22, 2012 3:44 PM
OK guys, new rule:
Some percentage of 12-year-olds will be grow up to be gay (3%, or whatever). But at that age no erotic metric applies.You might well tag them as Alzheimer's patients, since some will certainly suffer dementia if they live long enough. (In fact, that's a much larger percentage than that for homosexuality.) But many won't live long enough... And many will, but so what? Their parents are glad they brought them into the world anyway, as are the children themselves. Identification of these patterns at age 12 is pointless and inexcusably intrusive. And Good Lord is it goofy.
(Those who remain enthused about defending these uniquely torment children –however imaginary they may be– can take comfort in a corollary presumption that there are no 12-year-old heterosexuals, either.)
Amy, others... I mean this sincerely– If this is all about describing your own sadness at some tender age, no one will argue with righteousness of your resentment. Close friends will support you as you reflect fully on the impact it had on your life, and decent people at a distance will offer respectful space.
Please understand that everyone goes through painful and sometimes gratuitous suffering in those years, whether or not they share it with you. (Compare and contrast the Hitchens and Ephron cancer deaths; neither approach demands harsh judgment.) These sorrows do not authorize us to reach from a distance into unformed hearts and tinker with machinery that won’t be grinding for several (if not many) years.
It’s a beeswax boundary.
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at August 22, 2012 6:00 PM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2012/08/21/men_return_thei.html#comment-3312326">comment from Crid [CridComment at gmail]Guess what: I was a 12-year-old heterosexual, boy-crazy as all get-out.
Amy Alkon at August 22, 2012 6:24 PM
You didn't even want the choice? And if some shrieking woman on a distant shore had told you that you were gay, demanding that your sustaining organizations respond accordingly (or as she saw fit)?
Bees. Bees-WAX.
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at August 22, 2012 6:46 PM
BTW, how's your memory hold up? Car keys, social appointments, names of acquaintances, etc.?
Hmm? Oh, nothing, really... Just asking....
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at August 22, 2012 6:47 PM
"Hey Scouts, what do you think of a trip to the botanical gardens to help a few of you on your Environmental Science patch which you all know is required. My girlfriend and I went last week and the director was a scout once himself and he said we can have the whole place to ourselves after hours next weekend"
"Hey Scouts, what do you think of a trip to the botanical gardens to help a few of you on your Environmental Science patch which you all know is required. My boyfriend and I went last week and the director was a scout once himself and he said we can have the whole place to ourselves after hours next weekend"
According to crid, and a few others the second statement is all about ass fucking, craming sex (and possibly cock) down children's throats and grooming children in PCedness and possibly for molestation and perfectly acceptable grounds to remove the troop leader
But not according to Feebie even though she claims to support the policy, as statement number two forces "to address the sexuality of others" in a way that statement number one does not
lujlp at August 23, 2012 6:40 AM
Luj, I like you, but your misinterpretations are not my fucking problem. Capice?
1. I think this is being politicized in order to force a private organization to bend to the will of a few activists who could give two shits about the Boy Scouts. I don't like that.
2. If those Eagle Scouts want to give up their badges in the name of their own integrity, I personally think it is stupid (for several reasons) but they are welcome to do it.
3. There are already gays in the Scouting organization, and have been for quite sometime - I have no problem with that (as long as they meet the same standards of behavor, maturity, tolerance and anyting else that everyone else is asked to).
4. Their common purpose (as an organization) isn't placing their personality (gayness and sexuality, socioeconomic status, cleft lip, missing toe, best hair, crooked nose, best horse shoe champion, basketball star...) out in front when it comes to their participation in an organization, (they are Boy Scouts, period.....first and foremost). I am okay with that.
5. There is now an expectation that the "gay" Boy Scouts should somehow be viewed as "special" or have priviledged preferences within the organization because, otherwise, it's discrimintory. I think that is horseshit.
6. I think it's horseshit because it's really a) none of anyone's business and b) to do that begs the question - "what makes him different?" - "What does gay mean?", etc etc....which you can't get to unless you discuss sex. And this is a kids/youth organization. I got a problem with that - mostly, because no one cares. They only people who seem to be making a huge stink about this are they gays ...it's fucking weird because all they are being asked to do is to not discuss their personal sexual preferences.
7. Gays want to be "open" and like everyone else and force everyone to accept them - but to do that they need to first be "different" (get that logic? its retarded). So what is different again? Oh, its about how and who you choose to have sex with. WHO CARES. WHY DO I FUCKING CARE.....I DON'T.
WRONG VENUE. WRONG ORGANIZATION. MOVE ALONG. LEAVE THEM ALONE AND LET THEM HANDLE IT THEMSELVES.
As you can see from posts above, there has been no outright prohibition of gays within the organization in the past except when they choose to put their personal lives above the principles above that of the organization.
If they don't like the principles, they shouldn't join. If they want to join because they like the Scouts, then they should sit down, shut up and start a campfire and quit their bitchin' - because no one gives two shits where they poke their sticks....mmmkay?
Here's a little gem from the founder of the Scouts:
Feebie at August 23, 2012 8:03 AM
Your link didnt come thru
lujlp at August 23, 2012 8:51 AM
"SQUIRREL!"
Got distracted. Couldn't find the quote and I am not going to bug fiance at work for it - but the founder of the Scouts had a quote (and I am paraphrasing of course) that said something like John F. Kennedy's quote about "ask not what your country....."
Basically it was about changing boys perspective from "what do I get " to "what can I give".
Certainly not the principle in use by the gay activists who are continually complaining and suing people every ten seconds when the world doesn't adapt to their world view and lifestyle.
Feebie at August 23, 2012 9:54 AM
Feebie:
Excellent rejoinder to all those at the ramparts screaming "bigot".
(BTW, your spelling is so good I can't help mentioning "priviledged" is "privileged".) [/pedant]
Jeff Guinn at August 23, 2012 10:55 AM
My spelling and grammar is atrocious.
I keep swearing I'll write my posts in Office first then cut and paste (which I am very, very careful to do this at work) – but I always forget half way through my post when I’m burnin’ up the keyboard.
I wish I had been taught better writing habits growing up.
(I feel especially guilty when this happens because, you know, we have a Grammatarian running around on the loose around here sometimes. Looks like I need to be doubly cautious now that there is also a pendant too!)
Feebie at August 23, 2012 12:11 PM
*My spelling and grammar ARE atrocious.
(This is NOT second nature for me.)
Feebie at August 23, 2012 12:28 PM
"when I’m burnin’ up the keyboard"
See, it isn't just us old farts, thought - brain -fingers, shit happens. Ah, to be young and perfect again, as if.
Dave B at August 23, 2012 1:37 PM
Ya know Dave B, I heard something from a friend about a year ago:
"If you ever meet anyone that says they've got it all figured out.....RUN".
Life ain't about being perfect.
Feebie at August 23, 2012 1:54 PM
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