"It Became Necessary To Destroy The Village To Make It More Inclusive"
Great line from Overlawyered's @WalterOlson, who tweeted this post on his blog about father/daughter dances that have been cancelled in Rhode Island.
From CBS Boston, via AP, father-daughter dances and mother-son ballgames are over in Rhode Island, thanks to an ACLU letter of complaint:
Schools Superintendent Judith Lundsten told school organizations in an August letter that district attorneys found that while federal gender discrimination laws exempt such events, Rhode Island's law does not.ACLU Executive Director Steven Brown says the complaint came from a single mother whose daughter was precluded from attending the father-daughter dance.
In real life, all people are not always included. I didn't go to church or get to be in the Boy Scouts. I didn't weep about this. I accepted that all things are not for all people, which made me more realistic and probably a little less narcissistic.
What I did love is doing stuff with my dad, like when he'd take my sisters and me to his office with him on Saturday. We'd just color or read and then go out to lunch at McDonald's or Red Barn (an old Detroit chicken chain, if I'm remembering correctly).
Women (widows excepted) who want their children to go to father-daughter dances should be careful about who they make babies with.
1) Would you feel the same way if the woman who protested was indeed a widow? What about a widower whose son was prohibited from attending the mother-son baseball game? What if the school banned a girl whose father was serving overseas in Iraq? Single mothers aren't the only group excluded by these policies and regardless it's the innocent child whose being penalized.
2) No I don't think everyone needs to be included in everything--that's life. But a school-sponsored event that deliberately and visibly excludes motherless or fatherless children is poorly designed and heartachingly cruel. Missing out on the Boy Scouts and church isn't exactly comparable.
3) The village in this case chose to destroy itself. The school received a request to allow a girl without a dad to attend the dance. They could have EASILY obliged with a minimum of fuss and controversy--we're not talking about desegregating Mississippi in 1950. Instead, they chose to cancel the entire dance. The village burned itself. Zero sympathy. None. What idiots.
Shannon at September 20, 2012 12:39 AM
Why don't they allow someone to attend with a Stepfather, Uncle, Grandfather, Godfather, Family Friend, Friend's Father, Older Brother? Problem solved.
NicoleK at September 20, 2012 2:00 AM
Oh, look, it's Kyle's mom! She's here to ruin Christmas!
DrCos at September 20, 2012 4:15 AM
@Shannon at September 20, 2012 12:39 AM
I think the flaw in your argument is that those whose father's are deceased or on military leave do not protest such dances because they do not deny the importance of a father.
We have it backwards. We should feel sympathy for the excluded child because they do not have a father, not deprive the daughters who do have fathers the happiness of the father daughter dance.
Trust at September 20, 2012 4:30 AM
@NicoleK: "Why don't they allow someone to attend with a Stepfather, Uncle, Grandfather, Godfather, Family Friend, Friend's Father, Older Brother? Problem solved."
__________
I'm willing to bet money they would allow that. My nephew was abandoned by his father, so I did father/son baseball games with him. If Rhode island wouldn't, shame on them, but I doubt it.
We know this isn't really about exclusion. It's about intolerance and using force against those who the ACLU-types think might disagree with them.
Trust at September 20, 2012 4:34 AM
> Why don't they allow someone to attend with a
> Stepfather, Uncle, Grandfather, Godfather,
> Family Friend, Friend's Father, Older Brother?
> Problem solved.
No, no, no. The "problem" isn't that these dances are doing something sinister to convince these children that they're missing something in their lives. The problem is that a generation of blithering fuckballs thinks that children don't need fathers.
"Problem solved." I'm going to remember you said that.
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at September 20, 2012 5:10 AM
Would they really have barred the door if she went with an uncle/moms boyfriend/random other dude? I doubt it.
Shannon, what's heartachingly cruel is the mom (in this case)who has made her child be fatherless.
momof4 at September 20, 2012 5:12 AM
Also, Shannon's wrong wrong wrong. Wrongly wrong with flair, verve, serendipity and deep intention. Wrong as the day is long, and wrong to beat the band. More later. Short version: Decency is not about appearing to be decent, M'kay?
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at September 20, 2012 5:13 AM
Did the Father-Daughter dance specifically exclude the single mother's daughter. As NicoleK pointed out above, this could have been taken care of by an uncle, family friend, or somebody else. And I can't picture the school having a big problem with this; I would imagine a number of girls are in the same kind of situation.
Oh, by the way, I thought the ACLU statement quoted in the video, citing Ozzie and Harriet and Cinderella, was about as obnoxious as they come. Maybe the quote was out of context. Maybe.
Old RPM Daddy at September 20, 2012 5:25 AM
Does that include the "Take Your Daughter" to work day?
The ACLU, you got to love em' at times and other times you think "what dicks".
John Paulson at September 20, 2012 6:19 AM
Typical ACLU action: force every body else to bend over to accommodate the few. The school district is run by risk adverse bureaurats who are afraid of a law suit. Extortion via lawfare is a classic ACLU tactic.
BarSinister at September 20, 2012 6:21 AM
Every father-daughter dance I've ever heard of allows for little girls to attend with an older male role model. The point of the dance isn't to exclude anyone. It's to emphasize the importance of the relationship between a little girl and her dad (or older male role model, as the case may be for uncles, grands, or family friends, etc.). It's to give that kid a special time with that person.
I'm sorry, Shannon, but there's nothing wrong with not attending a school function if you don't have any reason to attend. As Amy says, not everything is for everybody. Schools have plenty of other dances and if Mom was really anxious to have her attend this one, then I'm sure there was a male role model she could've invited in "dad's" stead. And if there wasn't, then shame on Mom.
cornerdemon at September 20, 2012 6:24 AM
Amy,
I remember Red Barns (not many) in the Northern Virginia area. Though they went the way of such fast food places as Burger Chef many years ago. I thought they were fairly generic fast food burger places though. But I yield to your greater experience in what they served.
BlogDog at September 20, 2012 6:30 AM
"Why don't they allow someone to attend with a Stepfather, Uncle, Grandfather, Godfather, Family Friend, Friend's Father, Older Brother? Problem solved."
The ones I recall, that's exactly what they did. There were ways of solving that problem. Me and a friend of mine used to do a lot of work to set up school dances. We'd bring in a sound system, eet up lights, put together a playlist, and DJ the dance. At one dance we did, the dance committee informed me the day of the dance that it was strictly couples-only and since I didn't have a date, I was not allowed to set foot on the dance floor. This was even though I was doing a lot of the work to make the dance happen, and I wasn't getting paid for it. One of the teachers solved the problem by informing the committee that she would be my date. And yes, she actually danced with me a few times. She was pretty too. You should have seen the looks on the other guys' faces!
Cousin Dave at September 20, 2012 6:31 AM
As the video doesn't seem to want to play for me I am talking a bit out of turn . . .
But, it seems to me that this is the problem that so many folks have today - "it's my way or you're wrong!"
As others have commented here, there are so many work-around solutions to this kid not having a father to attend the event with - an uncle, a grandfather, or even a neighbor.
Why get the ACLU (or even other lawyers) involved unless one wanted to make a stink about this? Isn't that the real reason? The mother wants to make society conform to HER and her choices. I feel sorry for the kid having such a numskull for a parent.
Charles at September 20, 2012 6:53 AM
It's as I feared. We're all doomed.
When will the idiocy end?
o.O
Flynne at September 20, 2012 6:53 AM
Maybe the school allowed girls to bring another male relative/father figure, maybe not. I couldn't find anything online about their policy.
Regardless, it looks like what put a stop to the dances wasn't the exclusion of fatherless girls but rather the gender-specificity of the event ie the exclusion of boys. It sounds like their intent is to transition to a model of "family dances" and "family baseball games" and I can't see anything wrong with that. And I'm sure a lot of dads out there would opt to take their daughters (or sons) to the baseball game over the dance!
Shannon at September 20, 2012 6:55 AM
You're all aware it's a big load of horse hockey, right?
I mean, really.
Flynne at September 20, 2012 6:57 AM
Women (widows excepted) who want their children to go to father-daughter dance should be careful about who they make babies with.
There are alternatives. The girl's grandfather. Or perhaps a favorite uncle.
Or heaven forbid: her actual father if he's still alive?
That's the problem with making babies with someone: they become part of your life from that point forward no matter how much you want them gone. So it makes better sense to be with someone you actually want around, or at least can come to tolerate.
I R A Darth Aggie at September 20, 2012 7:26 AM
No, Shannon, it's not better to make it a family event. It it supposed to be a special time for dads and daughters or moms and sons (pairings that probably don't typically do a lot just the 2 of them) to bond.
My girls and DH LOVED the daddy/daughter dances at their old school. Our charter doesn't currently have them, but I'm trying to get them started.
momf4 at September 20, 2012 7:31 AM
> There are alternatives.
Why are people so horny to say this?
This was a "Father-Daughter dance." Mostly it was a cutesy thing... But it acknowledged the indisputably distinctive relationship of a girl and her father.
You can't make that second element go away. You can't make it unimportant: Father-daughter is like nothing else. People who are glibly evasive on this point are cowards, perhaps dangerous, but always annoying.
Crid [Cridcomment at Gmail] at September 20, 2012 7:34 AM
Next time I hear the word "role model" in discussion of family intimacies, I'm gonna start screaming and just not stop.
Crid [Cridcomment at Gmail] at September 20, 2012 7:36 AM
Next time I hear the word "role model" in discussion of family intimacies, I'm gonna start screaming and just not stop.
Crid [Cridcomment at Gmail] at September 20, 2012 7:36 AM
Not fathers, but "father figures."
Not fathers, but "role models."
Pathetic. You people should be ashamed.
(Not kidding.)
Crid [Cridcomment at Gmail] at September 20, 2012 7:42 AM
And Amy's right about Olson's "Destroy the village" line... That's exactly the kind of reasoning at work here.
Crid [Cridcomment at Gmail] at September 20, 2012 7:45 AM
"Women (widows excepted) who want their children to go to father-daughter dances should be careful about who they make babies with."
And for those who made mistakes let's make sure that we punish all of those innocent children and be sure that they truly suffer for the mistakes of the adults in their life. That's what it sounds like was meant here and I have a hard time with that because I know you're not a mean person.
I think the ACLU is a bit much and think that if the father won't/can't go, why not let another person take the kid. My ex was barred from seeing his kids for a period of time and I know that father/daughter dances at school were hard for my daughter. But it goes in the life isn't perfect or always fair file and my father or brothers were happy to step in.
Kristen at September 20, 2012 7:57 AM
> And for those who made mistakes let's make sure
> that we punish all of those innocent children
Bunny, we didn't punish this child.
The child is punished by a mother who not only didn't love her daughter enough to give her a loving father, but who's also so vain and insecure as to demand that the entire culture pretend she's been no mistake.
It's a wonder that more children of divorce aren't murderous psychopaths, especially with strangers across the nation demanding that we play along with the charade.
Crid [Cridcomment at Gmail] at September 20, 2012 8:07 AM
I meant 'she's made no mistake.'
Everybody got that, right? Everyone understood what I meant?
This is an important fight, and it's essential that all fists land squarely in the eye sockets.
C at September 20, 2012 8:09 AM
"It's a wonder that more children of divorce aren't murderous psychopaths, especially with strangers across the nation demanding that we play along with the charade."
Yes, Crid it is a wonder. Us single moms are doing everything in our power to ruin this country. Good thing you caught on to our evil plan. Now you can fix it.
Kristen at September 20, 2012 8:13 AM
The child who doesn't have a father is already punished by not having a father. The father daughter dance isn't the cause of that punishment. That ACLU however is.the cause of no daughter getting to have one.
A class my wife helps with did cards for Grandparents Day. There were kids who did not have living grandparents. They were simply told to make something for another loved one who was special to them.
You know, if this is the.battle the ACLU chooses to fight, then the liberties must be pretty good... that is unless the ACLU continues to succeed.
Trust at September 20, 2012 8:26 AM
Kristen, single moms are as a whole doing a great.deal of damage. Unlike other destructive groups, however, we put the force of.government behind enabling them and are.very defensive of them.
Now that statement of fact in no way diminishes the admirable job many single mothers do. But depriving children of fathers through choice or carelessness is harmful and should be stigmatized, just as a father abandoning a child should be.
Trust at September 20, 2012 8:33 AM
I'm trying to picture my father and me attending a father-daughter dance but imagination fails me. A father-daughter fly-fishing tourney--now that I could see!
Astra at September 20, 2012 8:58 AM
> single moms are doing everything in our power
> to ruin this country.
It often seems that if they weren't, no one would know the difference.
Crid [Cridcomment at Gmail] at September 20, 2012 9:03 AM
Kristen, single moms are as a whole doing a great.deal of damage. Unlike other destructive groups, however, we put the force of.government behind enabling them and are.very defensive of them."
Trust, I have never been on any form of government support. I have never joined any group or banded together with anyone to form a club that would deprive any child of either parent. My children's father happened to have made choices that were abusive and it was only after he beat them with belts that he was denied the opportunity to spend time with them. My kids were not at fault and say what you will about my choice to marry and have kids with him but the bottom line is no woman or child should have to serve a life sentence because they made a mistake when choosing a partner.
Kristen at September 20, 2012 10:17 AM
we can argue the esoteric parts of this 'till the cows come home. [what're cows? what's home?]
The important thing is that stupid adults ruined a buncha little girls dance for the vanity of one woman...
and probably more importantly to the PTB and ACLU they ripped down yet another fence that indicates that genders are indeed different, and that the government's interest trumps the interest of parents.
Why couldn't this be handled on the local level? Who knows. I know my ex often got at loggerheads with the PTA in my daughter's school over some really stupid stuff, on BOTH sides... and a lot of it was that different cliques of adult women couldn't stand each other, and refused to work together.
Perhaps the school wouldn't let the mom in because they don't like single mothers... or asked a lot of questions about where the father is and why can't he go...
or maybe the mom demanded that she should be able to go, and she doesn't care about the idea that this should be fathers and daughters.
Ya'know things that work well for individual people and schools, don't work for schools in other places... this is why LOCAL CONTROL is very important. For example if the school serves many Military families... many parents may be deployed, so a lot of variability is to be expected...
But using the ACLU is like using a tank to kill a fly. There are ways around all this, but it's no fun unless you get to say you won. Even if it's a Pyrrhic victory. It's stunning how many people think that way.
SwissArmyD at September 20, 2012 10:25 AM
> but the bottom line is no woman or child should
> have to serve a life sentence because they
> made a mistake when choosing a partner.
Whhhhaaaaaaat?
Says who? How would that work, exactly?
Here, let me try that! I'll use a somewhat different context—
Hey, you're right! It's a lot of fun to pretend that all the consequences in life are policy problems, especially when other people are going to responsible for fixing those problems!
I'm going to have to try this out on other issues in the days ahead.
Looking forward!
Crid [Cridcomment at Gmail] at September 20, 2012 10:35 AM
Gladly not in my day. Two of the mostest, greatest, spectacularest and memoralbest nights of my life.
Dave B at September 20, 2012 10:47 AM
Crid, you're right. The children of single mothers are going to suffer no matter what.
But that doesn't mean we have to make them suffer extra by not letting them go to a dance with someone else.
NicoleK at September 20, 2012 11:01 AM
"But that doesn't mean we have to make them suffer extra by not letting them go to a dance with someone else."
I do not think that has ever been an issue. Young girls were always allowed to bring a non-father, even a woman if so desired. You must know of some mean places.
Dave B at September 20, 2012 11:06 AM
> But that doesn't mean we have to make them
> suffer extra by not letting them go to a dance
> with someone else.
That's certainly OK with me. When the escort is a decently loving man, we're all grateful that he's there for her.
Do you suppose it's OK with the ACLU?
As I understand it, the effect of this protest was to prevent Father-Daughter dances evermore. The complainant parties – the mothers of the fatherless – have problems with the concept, right?
Faaaaaaabulous.Crid [Cridcomment at Gmail] at September 20, 2012 11:38 AM
These people are monsters. Especially the single "mother".
Feebie at September 20, 2012 11:43 AM
I gotta chime in here, I've seen Kristen post before about her boo-hoo life and I don't think I've ever heard her take responsibility for choosing an abuser as a "mate" and "father". Oh yes dear, he made choices and YOU did too. BAD, bad choices.
If you are so emotionally ditzy as to not be able to see what you were doing, then how on earth do you even deserve children. You don't get props for being a single Mom, unless your husband passed away for some reason. You chose the life sentence.
Wait for it... "it's not MY fault! It's not MY fault!"
And seriously?? Who cares if you've never been on government assistance. Thank you, you've done enough for humanity. You just seem to want more and more congratulations and pats on the back.
Jess at September 20, 2012 11:45 AM
Jess, I don't have a boo hoo life and I've accepted responsibility for my choices quite often here. Sorry you missed it. Trust me when I say that your congratulations and your pat on my back are not anything that interest me.
Its rather fortunate that you don't decide who deserves children and who doesn't although I will say again, many grown ups fuck up. Don't hold it against the kids. It doesn't have to be your fault that someone made a wrong choice. But don't hold it against kids. It seems very simple.
You can make all the arguments you want about being smart when choosing a mate. The reality is that for a variety of reasons, people get divorced. You don't have to agree with it or like it but it isn't the fault of the kids. When I write about what you define as my boo hoo life it is not because I want your sympathy or your pats. I hope that someone can learn from my mistakes.
Kristen at September 20, 2012 11:58 AM
And, Jess, I'm glad that you put my mistakes in the same category as a man who is abusive. I can definitely see where being young and stupid is as horrific as beating kids with belts or some of the other wonderful things he did. Great judgment call. I just say a prayer that you never had kids because that's some mindset you've got.
Kristen at September 20, 2012 12:01 PM
Here's what I'm hoping for: that when your children grow up and go through therapy and realize that you chose to do that to them, that you actually apologize and show some remorse for putting them in danger and scarring them.
Oh yeah, I'm the one with the mind-set problem. You are responsible for the abuse to your kids, how ON EARTH do you not see that. You're despicable.
I love it, YOU hope I don't have kids... Actually I have nice little two-story house in small-town USA, a loving and caring husband who is a STELLAR father, and a charismatic, healthy, beautiful three-year old. It's like, gosh, must just be lucky! Nope, I've actually developed some good decision-making skills, and you obviously can't say the same because you so flippantly put it out there that you let your kids get BEAT by their father. Nice.
Jess at September 20, 2012 12:20 PM
Kristen I certainly would never say someone should have to.serve a life.sentence and I'm glad that you aren't on assistance. That however is a separete issue from the effects of illegitimacy on society as a whole.
Trust at September 20, 2012 12:29 PM
Jess, maybe one day you will get educated about domestic violence. What is despicable is you making a statement that I allowed my children to get abused. I'm very happy for your child that the father is stellar. Its too bad the mother lacks any humanity.
Kristen at September 20, 2012 12:29 PM
Trust, there are issues with illegitimacy but don't paint an entire segment with one brush. That's all I'm saying. To declare that the only acceptable form of single parenthood is being widowed is where I have an issue. I know some bitter exes and I know some who did a pretty good job. When it comes to the kids I never like to see them have to pay for mistakes of their parents. This issue was about a father/daughter dance. I don't say take away the dances. Daughters with good fathers shouldn't be penalized, but I do say let a girl with a shit father have the chance to take someone who plays an important role in her life. I'm not sure what's wrong with that and I certainly didn't say anything to deserve the mean spirited comment I got. We're all entitled to our opinions. A little respect and kindness goes a long way.
Kristen at September 20, 2012 12:40 PM
>>"Regardless, it looks like what put a stop to the dances wasn't the exclusion of fatherless girls but rather the gender-specificity of the event ie the exclusion of boys. It sounds like their intent is to transition to a model of "family dances" and "family baseball games" and I can't see anything wrong with that."
Momof4 said it best, but I'll second it. This was an event to celebrate/highlight/enhance a bond between father and daughter. It wasn't SUPPOSED to be a family event, because it was supposed to be daddy's chance to get some special time with his daughter. And the point of it being a dance instead of a ballgame (which of course daddy would prefer) is that a dance is something a little girl enjoys that a dad might normally avoid. Like a mommy with baseball.
And no one is punishing the girl. If it were a Hispanic Celebration Dinner, there wouldn't be such an uproar. Plainly put, why would you want to go to an event where you have nothing to celebrate?
cornerdemon at September 20, 2012 12:42 PM
> I've seen Kristen post before about her
> boo-hoo life and I don't think I've ever
> heard her take responsibility
I have. She's not nearly as arrogant as some single mothers are, maybe much less arrogant than most. I think a lot of the worst things she says, and maybe believes – none of which are bloodthirsty – are things that are just sort of in the air in these years. It's bad rhetoric that oughta be stopped, but she's not out there cutting the fingers of retarded children or anything.
Crid [Cridcomment at Gmail] at September 20, 2012 1:00 PM
Thank you Crid! Seriously! You and I differ on many things but you've always articulated an intelligent and reasonable argument and never once have I felt attacked. So, truly, I thank you because coming from you, "not nearly as arrogant," is a compliment!
Kristen at September 20, 2012 1:34 PM
Why does the dance even have to allow other male figures to substitute for fathers? Why shouldn't they be able to say, "Sorry, no uncles, grandfathers, godfathers, or cousins?" Because that makes blameless fatherless girls cry?
Hey, bleeding hearts. Life is unfair! Sure, it's easier to file a lawsuit than to explain to your child that not everyone qualifies for everything, and sometimes it hurts to be different, but you can't have everything you want in life and being excluded doesn't give you the right to punish those who are included.
What's this mother going to do when her daughter doesn't make the cheerleading squad, or gets rejected by her first-choice college, or passed over for her dream job?
Sosij at September 20, 2012 1:48 PM
W R O N G, though. Don't make me take it back.
Crid [Cridcomment at Gmail] at September 20, 2012 1:49 PM
> Why does the dance even have to allow other
> male figures to substitute for fathers?
Well, what exactly are you trying to do for the kids? I think if you're trying to get them acclimated to being taken out for dinner (etc.) by men who love them and mean well, then a loving uncle or family friend has something wonderful to offer, even if not at the spiritual voltage that a loving father offers.
The point isn't about being an asshole. The point should never be about being an asshole. I agree that it would be cool if there was some forum in society (besides blog comments) where someone was giving some voice to the suspicions these girls must be feeling that something important in their lives is out of balance.
But rubbing their noses in it would help no one, including the rubbers.
Crid [Cridcomment at Gmail] at September 20, 2012 1:59 PM
Later Thursday afternoon, I remembered a work friend from about ten years ago who talked about taking his tween-ish daughter to dinner on one of those Daddy-dates for some social group.
As Phil described it, the evening wasn't entirely didactic or even especially formal, but it happened in the year of the young woman's life when she was starting to figure out that dates were something she'd have to learn to deal with. There was a little bit of dressing up and be-ready-by-seven... And an awareness that someone was actually going to be paying attention to how she made conversation over salad, her posture in her chair, and how she excused herself from the table when she saw a friend across the room who she wanted to greet or introduce, etc. He said it was marvelous, and that both he and his girl sincerely enjoyed it.
While happily childless, I was moved as Hell.
Also, Phil's wife was a howling fox.
There's nothing on Earth as intimidating as a seemingly happy family.
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at September 20, 2012 6:00 PM
Wow, this made me remember when I was in Brownies and we had a daddy/daughter dinner. I was probably around 7. It was a BIG DEAL and we all thought we were all that and a bag of chips for getting to go out and have one-on-one time with our dads. I'm sure someone in the group was sans father but likely had an uncle or grandfather in tow.
The point is, it's important to do things like this. And as someone else said, if you seriously can't find someone to step in an play daddy for one night, WTF is wrong with you? Children need role models of both genders.
Daghain at September 20, 2012 7:24 PM
I hate being part of a mob, but I third it. Done right, the bond between father and daughter is incredible, and will serve her well throughout her life.
Not everyone is that lucky of course. And because of that, none may have this opportunity to enhance that bond.
In what universe does that even begin to make sense?
Jeff Guinn at September 21, 2012 12:56 AM
"In what universe does that even begin to make sense?" Jeff G.
In the universe where "a woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle."
There are plenty of women out there who are willing to sacrifice their children on the alter of that idealism.
There are also plenty of men who sacrifice their children on the alter of someone else's problem, but that's a different story...
SwissArmyD at September 21, 2012 10:10 AM
It's a wonder that more children of divorce aren't murderous psychopaths
Not really, most of us are smart enough to realise their really isnt any point, as there is no way to kill enough people one at a time without being caught
lujlp at September 22, 2012 8:50 AM
I kinda feel single moms automatically want us to fall at their feet. I can't do it. Most single moms I know are so because of their own choices! Choose carefully with whom you create people!
Kristen keeps claiming her ex was abusive and he stopped seeing (or she denied him seeing) his kids when he whipped them with a belt....that's standard practice when I was growing up. Whip and beat are to different words...it's called discipline.
I think single moms are wussyfying boys in our society,
cheluzal at September 22, 2012 3:11 PM
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