Brilliant Foreign MIT Students, Go Home!
That's what we, through the lobbyist-loving losers we elect to the House and Senate, keep telling brilliant and highly talented foreign students. Gordon Crovitz writes in the WSJ:
Here's a sampling of the immigration bills Washington has failed to pass: the Stopping Trained in America Ph.D.s from Leaving the Economy Act; the Advanced Degree Visa Bill; the Startup Act; the Immigration Driving Entrepreneurship in America Act; and the Benefits to Research and American Innovation through Nationality Statutes Act.The most recent was the Science, Technology, Engineering and Math Jobs Act, proposed by Rep. Lamar Smith of Texas, a Republican. The bill made it to a vote, but under a procedure requiring two-thirds approval. The vote fell short, 257-158, with almost all Republicans in favor as well as 30 Democrats. The bill would have substituted visas for graduates from qualifying universities in the hard sciences for the current program awarding visas in a lottery system that limits the number granted for each country, discriminating against applicants from populous nations such as China and India. "Unfortunately, the Democrats voted today to send the best and brightest foreign graduates back home to work for our global competitors," Rep. Smith said.
There's no debate about the importance of skilled immigrants. Between 1995 and 2005, foreign-born and technically trained entrepreneurs founded half the firms in Silicon Valley.
Graduates in scientific and technical fields can stay in the U.S. for 29 months under a program called Optional Practical Training. Then they can apply for one of 65,000 three- to six-year H-1B visas or one of 20,000 visas for advanced degree holders, including in nontechnical fields. This year the quota for H-1B visas was filled in less than three months.
Even if someone gets one of these visas, he eventually needs to apply for a green card, of which 140,000 are granted each year, fewer than 10% for work-based applicants. The majority are for applicants who have family members in the U.S. These applicants should be admitted under other programs.
In the meantime, countries including Australia, Britain, Canada, Ireland, Israel and Singapore have adopted policies in recent years to lure talented emigrants. The governments are hoping to beat the U.S. at its historic comparative advantage in attracting and assimilating people from around the world.
Instead of offering amnesty to anybody who crawled over the border more than 20 minutes ago (and funding their health care, schooling, and jailing), we should be selective about whom we give the privilege of staying and working in and maybe becoming a citizen of this country.
Do you think we'd be better off with more short-order cooks or more software engineers?
My husband did his undergrad, phd, post doc, and asst. professorship in the US, lived there for a total of about 13 years, 5 of which were after his studies and STILL didn't have a Green card, even though he was married to me.
As it turns out, it's lucky he didn't, because having had a Green card or US citizenship is a liability here. We wouldn't have gotten our mortgage if he had had a Green card. So it worked out in our favor.
NicoleK at September 30, 2012 11:51 PM
I think we can get plenty of brilliant software engineers from the United States by fixing up schools, and providing kids the right incentives.
There IS an argument to be made that by schooling the world's college students we make the world a better place for America.
But the argument that we can't find brilliant kids in the US is bullshit and is mostly about cheap labor: http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/h1b.html
The UC Campuses used to guarantee admission to any California resident with a B average. They no longer do that, mainly because foreign students pay much higher tuition.
That's bullshit. California taxpayers built UC, and UC should return to schooling California kids first, the world second.
jerry at October 1, 2012 3:23 AM
Short order cooks will be payed little, pay negligible federal income tax and vote for candidates with a D next to their names. Software engineers are more likely to be offended by the high taxes and decaying civilization and vote for the R tagged candidates. The unionized government bureaucracy requires a voter base of impoverished cattle, and they are making certain we have it.
Storm Saxon's Gall Bladder at October 1, 2012 5:07 AM
I think we can get plenty of brilliant software engineers from the United States by fixing up schools, and providing kids the right incentives.
Do tell.
No, seriously, what's your plan? what you've said there could be said by any candidate running for office higher than dog catcher or water board.
I'm not picking on you, but it's easy to say. It's much harder to do. As a for instance, how do you plan to handle the teacher's union when they cry foul and claim that you hate teachers and are actively trying to harm children?
I R A Darth Aggie at October 1, 2012 7:40 AM
If people who are paid higher pay so much tax, then why does Romney pay less of a percentage than Obama or Newt Gingrich?
Why is Ann Romney's dancing horse a tax write-off?
Patrick at October 1, 2012 7:41 AM
Patrick, implicit in your question is the idea that Mitt Romney should pay as high a rate as Obama or Gingrich or you and me. Instead, why not lower income tax rates to 15 percent, same as the rate for capital gain's (Romney's income), so that we all pay as low a rate as he does?
mpetrie98 at October 1, 2012 7:54 AM
Do you really need it explained, Patrick? The Romneys were taxed at a lower rate in 2011 and 2010 because all or most of their income in those years came from investments, not wages/earnings. The money that Mitt was able to invest came from wages/earnings that he earned years ago and paid taxes on years ago. Investment income is taxed at a lower rate than income earned from employment for a number of reasons. In a nutshell, the smarter people in government would like to encourage actual private sector investment, where citizens rather than taxpayers carry the risk. If investments, which are riskier than employment, carried the same tax rates as employment, fewer people would invest. Someone like Romney could very well pay zero federal tax (just property and sales) by simply taking all the millions he's earned in his work-a-day life, perhaps converting it into gold coins that he could roll around in like Scrooge McDuck, and living happily ever after. Instead he invests it, pays some taxes and contributes to innovation and employment and everybody's happy, or should be.
Mrs. Romney's horse is a tax break because the tax code in convoluted and weird, and should be simplified, but not because omg rich people!
As far as this
"Do you think we'd be better off with more short-order cooks or more software engineers?"
I think we'd better off with more educated people in general, but I'm not running for office with a D behind my name, so that probably colors my opinion.
Jenny Had A Chance at October 1, 2012 8:06 AM
Storm Saxon's Gall Bladder nailed it!
dee nile at October 1, 2012 8:12 AM
Actually, a better question would be "Why isn't capital gains taxed as high as the income tax on wages?"
Patrick at October 1, 2012 8:39 AM
How many times should we tax income Patrick?
Dave B at October 1, 2012 9:04 AM
Patrick---see above. If I was too wordy there, see below.
Capital gains taxes are lower than taxes on wages because people typically invest money that they've already been taxed on, when it came to them as wages. That's the first reason.
The other reason is that investing is a behavior that the government would like to encourage. It does very little good for the economy if someone like Romney decides to hole up with his money and swim in it, or spend it up, which is a perfectly logical choice for Romney to make if the taxes on his returns are too high. Remember, he bears all the risk if the investments turn out badly, so the possible reward has to be pretty good to justify investing vs. swimming in money. It does everyone---consumers, people who would like to be employed, and the tax coffers---a lot of good if Romney invests his money, so it makes sense that the taxes aren't too punitive. Taxes shouldn't be punitive on wage-earners and business owners, either, but that's a whole 'nother thread.
Jenny Had A Chance at October 1, 2012 9:06 AM
I am an American citizen with a PhD in a STEM field and I have been unemployed for 6 months. Why should foreign graduates get green cards when qualified American citizens remain unemployed? It is largely a myth that we have a shortage of scientists in this country. See http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/future_tense/2012/06/scientist_shortage_is_a_myth_.html or http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=does-the-us-produce-too-m and numerous other links from a quick Google search.
Novathecat at October 1, 2012 10:20 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2012/10/01/brilliant_forei.html#comment-3350685">comment from NovathecatNova, I'm so sorry to hear you've been without a job for six months. But, where do we draw the line? Should there be full American employment in tech fields before we let in Russians like the father of Sergey Brin?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergey_Brin
Amy Alkon at October 1, 2012 11:17 AM
Since there's a tax rate tangent dangling here, i'll draw it out at bit:
If you pay 18% on an income of $20,000 and
I pay 12% on an income of a million dollars
then you pay $3600 and I pay $120,000.
120000 is MORE than 3600.
Rich people pay more.
People don't think a fine of 120k is enough punishment for the crime of being rich? Perhaps they should pay 120K AND go for a walk on the ice.
And have the TSA take away their peanut butter. That'll larn them.
Storm Saxon's Gall Bladder at October 1, 2012 1:34 PM
Not only are Americans so dumb we have to give tech jobs away to furriners, according to our brilliant and underpaid CEOs, but we're also biased against women in science. According to woman in science, anyway:
http://www.cnn.com/2012/10/01/opinion/urry-women-science/index.html?iref=obnetwork
The evidence is in. I'm a real science-hating, free-market-hating, woman-hating bastard.
I'd loathe myself but I went to public school so I don't know what "loathe" really means.
Gog_Magog_Carpet_Reclaimers at October 1, 2012 3:20 PM
Perhaps unsurprisingly, the country with the lowest marginal tax rate on average income workers — Switzerland, at 20% — also boasts the world’s 7th highest GDP per capita at $43,196. The UK’s Times Online called attention to Switzerland’s “benign tax system” in a 2009 article about the nation’s “low tax high life” that invites people to escape 50% tax rates by moving there. Contrary to general assumptions, the Times explains, Switzerland has found a way to maintain a high standard of living alongside an extremely low personal income tax rate. BusinessWeek likewise reported in 2009 that Switzerland was “openly and legally urging multinationals to relocate” — and succeeding, while other nations buckled beneath staggering debt. Switzerland’s low tax rates have not stopped it from having some of the leading universities in the world, a highly educated work force and less than 3% unemployment as of 2009...
Stinky the Clown at October 1, 2012 4:11 PM
"Nova, I'm so sorry to hear you've been without a job for six months. But, where do we draw the line? Should there be full American employment in tech fields before we let in Russians like the father of Sergey Brin?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergey_Brin"
I think that's a false dilemma Amy.
Immigration has very little to do with wanting to increase H1B Visas, and very little to do with UC ending its mandate to educate Californians first.
Google around, there have been a spate of articles in recent weeks about how the main problem with employers is how they hire, that is, through automated systems and idiot HR departments that can literally take 20,000 engineering applications and decide no one is qualified.
When I just got out of school, it was common to go on trips to various cities to stop in at engineering companies for personal interviews -- reservation nice but not required.
Now that's just silly and a waste of time.
There is an aircraft plant employing 2,000 workers easily 5 miles from me that I am absolutely perfectly qualified to work at, but my resume must be sent and vetted through company HQ 2000 miles away, and when I have shown up and asked to speak to a hiring manager, they have just given me a funny look and told me to send my resume in.
WHENEVER you hear an employer complain that they can't find qualified employees, DEMAND of that employer: do you have any way for candidates to come to your place of business, ask to see a hiring manager, and speak to them about possible openings?
There should be no H1B visas ever granted to any facility that does not offer onsite resume qualification and interviews with a hiring manager.
jerry at October 1, 2012 4:32 PM
With a marginal tax rate of 46.6 on average workers, Finland has the fourth highest such rate in the world. However, unlike many similarly taxed countries, Finland has managed to have a stronger overall economy despite its taxation. Unemployment currently sits at 6.8% – surprisingly low given the current economic crisis and double-digit unemployment in the United States. Additionally, Finland’s $36,320 GDP per capita ranks 20th on the International Monetary Fund’s list. The CIA Factbook likewise states that Finland has “a highly industrialized, largely free-market economy with per capita output roughly that of the UK, France, Germany, and Italy.” It is also worth noting that Finland has been one of the best performing economies in the entire European Union in recent years, owing in no small part to the country’s having avoided the worst of the banking crisis.
Stinky the Clown at October 1, 2012 4:34 PM
"This year the quota for H1-B visas was filled in less than three months."
By the numbers given, there should have been 4 x 85,000, or 340,000 tech jobs being filled this year. Is that true?
I will fling pooh at anyone who says Yes.
The H1-B system was touted as a way to bring in extra help when domestic companies could not find enough US nationals for their positions.
Instead, it's obvious what they're doing: grabbing the H1-Bs first, and then (maybe) agreeing to interview US nationals. A talented friend of mine has experienced this firsthand, when she was *finally* able to get an interview at Microsoft-- right after all the H1-Bs had been used up.
I wrote a nastygram to my congressman about his ongoing position of allowing high quotas for H1-Bs, and he did admit that there have been some abuses, but so far nobody is trying to address them. His region included Diablo Valley College.
Looking through the course catalog at Diablo Valley College, I'm struck by the huge number of computer science classes. The classes are being offered because people are taking them. The excuse that there's not enough qualified job candidates is a lie.
I used to do tech work in Silicon Valley-- graduated from the most highly accredited tech school in the country for it-- so this is near and dear to me. I gave it all up, though... now I shoe horses for the ladies at the riding stables.
One thing I'm glad to see is that foreign countries are making serious efforts to keep their brain capital from leaving. It's especially concerning when trained medical people are leaving their Third World origins, and I applaud that.
jefe at October 1, 2012 5:44 PM
I will not disagree that your profession has been hosed.
But my question is did you say anything when your FDA approved research and drug tests were disapproved in the U.S.?
Can you say you objected when they offshored your research?
Did you ever object to anything that was overseas?
If you can't then you are probably guilty of your own demise.
Jim P. at October 1, 2012 9:17 PM
A couple years ago when I was in grad school one of these bills was being talked about. At least according to a couple of guys in the Doctorate program, very few if any couldn't stay in the US if they wanted to. Now getting a green card might be a problem. A bigger reason, according to them - and they noted a couple who had recently completed the program but I didn't know them, is the students have obligations back home - say a sponsor or what have you.
In the case of software developers, we are far from full employment. Many of the h1bs appear to be abuses - or just poor selection. I mean a company I worked for and none of the H1Bs were anything special when it comes to producing software. One was a poor developer though great at theory stuff.
The Former Banker at October 1, 2012 11:22 PM
First of all, most PhDs are not in the 15% tax bracket. They tend to earn 80-150.
Superstar Terry Tao earns about 430. He is hugely exceptional. He is a superstar. He's not really relevant to the conversation.
15% of 150 is still more than 30% of 30.
So even if they're taxed at a lower rate, they pay more in actual dollars, bringing in more revenue.
NicoleK at October 1, 2012 11:59 PM
Well, gee, there's another solution to this. The school system in Macon county, Georgia, mandates Mandarin Chinese. Teachers are subsidized by the Chinese government.
Those kids will be prepared to read the contracts by which the USA signs over everything.
Radwaste at October 2, 2012 12:41 AM
I welcome anyone who wants to come here who has truly bought into the philosophy of America. However, Jerry has a great point: because so many companies have dysfunctional HR these days, what they are really doing with the H1B visas is a back-door form of outsourcing. A lot of the H1B workers these do not remain in the U.S. long term; they come over to work a project and get education, and then they take their education and experience back home or to a third country. There are some governments (e.g., Saudi Arabia) who sponsor people in their country specifically to do this. It's a low-grade form of industrial espionage. To name one, it's a particular problem in the pharmaceutical industry because people wil come to the U.S. to learn how to make a drug, and then go back to their home country (which does not respect U.S. patents) and do knockoffs.
Cousin Dave at October 2, 2012 7:23 AM
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