Islam Is Killing Europe
Compelling anonymous post on Reddit from a Belgian about how Islam is ruining Europe, "Islam is not a religion like any other, here's why":
We have many different religions, and many different cultures here in Belgium. None of them posed a big problem, but Islam really is an exception.What I have learned is that Islam is not a religion like any other. Let me explain: Most religions and most cultures are compatible with Belgian culture and law, and just fit in. Islam however, is not just a religion as how we here define "religion". Islam is a whole package. Islam contains a political system, economic system, justice, education, culture and religion.
When Muslims come to Europe to live their lives, this creates impact.
We have Police here who's job is to make sure that the citizens follow the law. People with Islamic roots are showing some kind of immunity against the police. They show this in how they behave towards the police, by not accepting the police as an authority. They literally say and admit that Allah, the Islamic God, is the only authority.
Every week there are cases of violence against police and it always shows the same pattern: 1 Muslim gets arrested, and then suddenly a group of sometimes up to 50 Muslims gather and attack the police. This has happened so many times that the police has decided to no longer patrol certain neighborhoods, because their authority is no longer accepted there so they are just outnumbered by the ( Islamic ) civilians. I'm not speculating about the future here, this is the reality here today in 2012.
...The number of hate crimes against homosexuals is increasing every year. It started a few years back with taunting and attacking homosexual persons around areas with gay bars. Since last year, the first murders of gays have happened, by Muslims. No provocation, just hate crimes, hate against gays. The gay community is aware of areas in Belgium where they are no longer safe simply because they are gay. This wasn't the case 10 years ago. Then there are the increasing reports of honor killings. Just recently, a 22 year old Belgian bared the child of her 19 year old Islamic ex-boyfriend. The family of this Muslim had arranged a wife and a marriage for him, and this child would bring a shame on the whole family. That's why he and his nephew have killed this young 22 year old girl, to save the honor of the family.
I hope I'm getting my point across here. Although Islam is being defined as a religion, it is not just that. Islam is much more, it's a whole package, it's a culture, it's an entire social system.
And it's impacting with another system. It's not impacting with Christianity, it's impacting with the Western world. We can see it slowly unfolding here in Europe. Slowly but certain.
Let me stress out that Muslims are more attached to their Islamic system, than the European people are attached to the Western system. This is because the Islamic system has a God as the authority, which is a more powerful psychological motivation, than the European people who just have the government as the authority. Muslims are therefore not showing as much indulgence as other Europeans, resulting in an increasing amount of rights for Muslims and a decreasing amount of rights for Europeans.
Other cultures and religions have had no problem with fitting in. But Islam is not just a religion. It's something different.
When "Freedom of Religion" was written in the Belgian law, it wasn't meant for something like Islam. This is the mistake and the problem that we are facing. And at this moment nobody knows how to deal with it.
We should reconsider defining Islam as "just a religion"
It's complex, because there are Muslims who integrate perfectly well and aren't very hard core.
What I think is important is to NOT have separate standards for Muslims. I know some countries (I believe England was one) have considered allowing separate courts for people wanting to use Sharia law for things like divorce. This is problematic, because you are essentially saying Muslim women shouldn't have the same rights as native White women.
There are several problems though, not the least of which is that in many European countries it is unfashionable to get married and have kids. Lots of people do, of course, but many don't and so the indigenous population is dwindling, while the percentage of immigrant population is increasing.
Also, as the native population gets more educated, they don't want to do more menial jobs like cleaning lady, fry cook, janitor, etc. People are needed to fill these jobs.
NicoleK at October 22, 2012 12:06 AM
"Also, as the native population gets more educated, they don't want to do more menial jobs like cleaning lady, fry cook, janitor, etc. People are needed to fill these jobs"
True, but muslims are not the only source of people for such jobs. The only ones in those jobs causing trouble are muslims. There are non muslims doing those jobs and they do not cause any trouble.
"It's complex, because there are Muslims who integrate perfectly well and aren't very hard core."
But why is it that the only ones who are hard core and do not fit in are muslims? Ever heard of police having problems in Sikh or Hindu or Buddhist areas? Why is it that the only community that ever causes unmanageable trouble is muslims, muslims and only muslims anywhere and everywhere in the world? Why is it that only muslims have this criminal and feudal era mindset and that every other religion in the world has moved ahead and fits in with modern values?
Redrajesh at October 22, 2012 2:56 AM
Jews, Christians, and atheists have big religious differences. Today however; they all mostly have the same outlook on the societal structure of law and rights. Muslims have a different view. Old and New testament scriptures are both very clear on treating outsiders equally under the law. Islamic scriptures consider outsiders to be less under the law
David H at October 22, 2012 4:58 AM
No it's NOT "something different."
It's a religion.
This is infantile. If you need that badly to have your emotions stoked before you concentrate on a problem, then you were never going to be part of the solution anyway.
(And it's very easy to consider Europeans of this generations in the light of that truth.)
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at October 22, 2012 5:38 AM
And there's something despicably lefty about thinking of this in terms of the appropriate wordplay, i.e.:
> We should reconsider defining Islam as
> "just a religion"
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at October 22, 2012 5:40 AM
Grrrrr
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at October 22, 2012 5:41 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2012/10/22/islam_is_killin.html#comment-3399881">comment from Crid [CridComment at gmail]It is a totalitarian system masquerading as a religion.
Amy Alkon at October 22, 2012 5:45 AM
"Let me stress out that Muslims are more attached to their Islamic system, than the European people are attached to the Western system. This is because the Islamic system has a God as the authority, which is a more powerful psychological motivation, than the European people who just have the government as the authority."
The first sentence is true as a general matter; the second is more questionable. There were plenty of Marxist atheist fanatics who had just as much psychological motivation to spread their ideology as any conventional religious person.
The real issue is the loss of societal self-confidence on the part of the West, which has only been partly a matter of religion. Certainly, Western self-confidence has been consciously targeted for attack over recent decades by many academics, writers, artists, etc.
A very interesting book relating to the above is Arthur Koestler's neglected 1950 novel of ideas The Age of Longing....the central character of which is a young American woman who is unable to be attracted to American or European men but falls hard for a committed Russian Communist. I reviewed it here:
http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/11799.html
david foster at October 22, 2012 6:21 AM
I don't think you recognize the naivete of your definition of "religion." Your understanding of religion is the milquetoast, dress-up-a-little-bit Sunday morning social hour as (mildly) practiced by suburban Americans who've found other things to give their lives to. The cheerful, orderly, musical expressions of their faiths have as antecedents "totalitarian" systems every bit as brutal as Islam, and you're a fool if you think otherwise.
It's like regarding a groomed, neckerchief'd Boy Scout as a representative of a wartime scout from campaigns of centuries past. Or like seeing a dope-smoking, soap-avoidant Occupy Wall Street enthusiast from 2011 as representative of a military occupation.
Why? Why are you so horny to believe there's something new happening here? Are you that eager to think of yourselves as heroic and/or threatened in an unprecedented way?
I accuse you wanting to muster up some kind of more violent, civil-rights-quashing response, but all you can muster is some grumbling about "definitions."
Crid [Cridcomment at Gmail] at October 22, 2012 6:24 AM
It's complex, because there are Muslims who integrate perfectly well and aren't very hard core.
True. They smoke, the drink, they gamble, they violate much of Sharia.
But that makes them apostates. And from the true believer's point of view, it isn't very complex.
Apostates are to be killed.
Jews are to be killed.
Gays are to be killed.
Infidels? a bit more flexibility. Conversion is preferred. If that doesn't work, then oppression if the true believer does't have enough cover to go to third option: kill them all, let Allah sort them out.
Seems to me that there's a recurring theme in all that. Islam is a death cult.
Alas, poor France, where is Charlemange when you need him?
I R A Darth Aggie at October 22, 2012 6:34 AM
So to fit into western society one has to smoke, drink and gamble?
What do you call a vegan, non smoker white guy who does not gamble? A hardcore?
Redrajesh at October 22, 2012 6:55 AM
You're thinking of his grandfather, Charles Martel.
Given that there ISN'T a Charles Martel going around fighting at Tours, what is the solution?
Here is what I think needs to happen:
1) More reproduction by the natives
2) Adjusting immigration so that there is more from countries like Spain, Italy and Greece and less from the Middle East and Africa. Unfortunately, with Ghadafi gone, this is not likely to happen. Say what you will about him, he extorted money from the European countries in exchange for stopping boatloads of illegal immigrants from crossing the Med. He's gone.
3) Working hard at integrating the ones who are there now. Some ideas:
a) Match up a new immigrant family with a native family who could help them learn local ways
b) Insist on -everyone- who comes learning the local language and laws, not just the family patriarch. No more women stuck at home not knowing the local language or their rights.
c) Perhaps a law stating that immigrant children must attend public schools and abide by the rules could help. Let the natives be maniacs and send their kids to crazy schools if they want, but if you immigrant to a country it is your job to try to blend in the mainstream.
d) Do not consolidate the immigrants into HLMs or other immigrant-dense housing. If they must live in subsidized housing, scatter them throughout the community
e) Help them get good jobs and get involved in the community
NicoleK at October 22, 2012 6:59 AM
> 1) More reproduction by the natives
The whole attraction of modern life is that you don't have to make so many smelly babies; fertility always plunges with wealth. IOW, this is a modernity/primitiveness problem.
> 2) Adjusting immigration so that there is more
> from countries like Spain, Italy and Greece and
> less from the Middle East and Africa.
We can't keep 'em down on the farm (desert) anymore... Airliners go everywhere. Furthermore, the modern world needs immigrants to keep the machinery running.
> a) Match up a new immigrant family with a native
> family who could help them learn local ways
What's in it for the locals? Why wasn't this done for the Irish and Italians in NYC? How'd it work out for the natives at Plymouth Rock?
> b) Insist on -everyone- who comes learning the local language and laws
Hear hear.
> c) Perhaps a law stating that immigrant children
> must attend public schools and abide by the rules
Already the law in the States... Not in Europe?
> d) Do not consolidate the immigrants into HLMs
The French are lunatics with this, though I'm not sure policy has ever been good and thoughtful and willful in this regard anywhere in human history... I don't know of a time when a government said "We're going to integrate a huge population of idiot foreigners, and we're going to do it sensibly, like THIS...."
> e) Help them get good jobs and get involved
> in the community
Let 'em find their own fuckin' jobs. Same as everyone else. Government isn't responsible for cutting your path through life. Each of us alone is responsible for figuring out how we will be useful to others... That's how capitalism generates all that wealth that people want to take from each other.
Crid [Cridcomment at Gmail] at October 22, 2012 7:16 AM
Crid, I'd love to hear your ideas for solutions to this problem.
NicoleK at October 22, 2012 7:36 AM
I'm pretty sure immigrants in the US can attend private schools if they want.
NicoleK at October 22, 2012 7:37 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2012/10/22/islam_is_killin.html#comment-3399974">comment from RedrajeshWhat do you call a vegan, non smoker white guy who does not gamble?
Somebody too boring to invite for dinner.
Amy Alkon at October 22, 2012 7:55 AM
> I'd love to hear your ideas for solutions
> to this problem.
Horrific, soul-crushing acts of violence... Torture; rape.
OK, no. That wasn't serious.
Mostly I want us not to pretend that there's some new solution to an ancient problem, or to imagine that our "definitions" will protect us... That sounds mostly like a call to marshal the forces of fascism for a beat-down. And while our lives have been spectacularly good and safe and sexually fulfilling, our virtues aren't the ones which lined everything up for this interval of plenty & comity.
The forces which tame these hillbillies and their crazyshit religious practices will in all likelihood be the same ones that tamed the Irish and the Italians and the Cubans and the Dutch and the Vietnamese and the blahblah... And the sacrifices in that effort will be just as dear.
Again— Why pretend it's new?
Crid [Cridcomment at Gmail] at October 22, 2012 8:01 AM
Crid, it may not be new, but its' something that Western civilization hasn't had to deal with in a very long time. So it might as well be new.
And to take your modest proposal a bit further (yeah, somebody's got to say it, and I may as well be that guy): The problem with the mobs will stop after a few of them are indiscriminately machine-gunned. The one thing Islam respects and fears is raw power. The strong horse. Imagine a religion created and led by the neighborhood bully. That's Islam.
Cousin Dave at October 22, 2012 8:10 AM
> So it might as well be new.
No, I just can't think of anything good that comes from carrying yourself like a sulking teenager, resentful at having to wear a hair net while you shake salt over the fries, etc., as your father and his and his and his hadn't suffered indignities as they made their way.
> Imagine a religion created and led by the
> neighborhood bully. That's Islam.
Naw, that's human nature. This is not exotic. Our use of punishing forces, when required, will be occasioned by the usual tripwires.
Crid [Cridcomment at Gmail] at October 22, 2012 8:25 AM
1) More reproduction by the natives
_______________________________
Um, just how often do TWO people have babies - or extra babies - that NEITHER of them really wants, just for the sake of "society"? (Outside of societies like "Quiverfull"?)
I'd bet you could count the number of purely unselfish reasons for having children on one hand - if there are any such reasons at all. (When you think about it, the reasons include the words "I want" in one form or another!)
I understand that one reason children born into Muslim families tend to stay Muslims as adults is the penalty for becoming an apostate. However, there ARE more and more apostates, from what I can see. Can't remember who said this, but the gist was that any belief system that can only be supported by constant reproduction as opposed to voluntary conversion is on pretty shaky ground. (Yet another reason why pushing non-Muslims to breed more is no guarantee the children won't become Muslims themselves!)
lenona at October 22, 2012 8:29 AM
Just to clarify - I meant "just how often do two people DELIBERATELY conceive babies - or extra babies - that NEITHER of them really wants."
After all, many a couple has chosen to have a baby - but only after the birth control failed.
lenona at October 22, 2012 8:31 AM
Crid, correct me if I'm wrong: your basic viewpoint is that religion is inherently harmful, and the rest flows from that. Not saying to be snarky -- I'm trying to decide where my counter-argument needs to go.
Cousin Dave at October 22, 2012 9:31 AM
Religion, as a rule, sux.
But nobody's asking, OK? People who want to be religious are going to be religious whether or not you or I think they should. And one of the great strengths of America is her hospitality to all: Ours is said to be the most religious nation on the planet, and I believe it. See how that works?
Religion isn't going to go away just because Miss Amy Alkon of Dee-troyt, Minnesota thinks it's distasteful and unnecessary and irrational and she's rilly rilly shure so can't you guys just make the nasty stuff go away ok please thankyouverymuch? No. Religion fills a bigger part of the human heart than anything she has to offer.
If we want to contain its ugliness, well need to deliver modernity's full package: Opportunity, nutrition, literacy, suffrage/representation, scientific enlightenment, sexuality, sushi, and scuba diving. And this is the really important kicker: We'll have to deliver it to the Sisters, hard and fast, without letting their brothers and fathers spazz out and interfere.
But let's not pretend there are innovative new options, or definitional distinctions, or that believers can be glibly convinced to get a haircut and join the team. The old joke was never that funny: 'Doctor, it hurts when I go like this with my arm....'
Crid [Cridcomment at Gmail] at October 22, 2012 11:08 AM
"The forces which tame these hillbillies and their crazyshit religious practices will in all likelihood be the same ones that tamed the Irish and the Italians and the Cubans and the Dutch and the Vietnamese..."
The Vietnamese? Seriously?
"French media and politicians generally view the Vietnamese community as a model minority, in part because they are represented as having a high degree of integration within the French society as well as economic and academic success"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnamese_people_in_France
I'm not holding my breath till the day when Muslims in France or Belgium are described as a model minority with a high degree of economic and academic success. Note also that Muslims have had more time to adapt to their French home. Vietnamese didn't start arriving in large numbers until the fall of South Vietnam in '75, while Muslims started arriving in large numbers after Algerian independence in '62.
Primitivism and poverty are not the issues here. Hmong fresh from the jungle were plenty primitive, and boat people were as poor and desperate as any Muslim. The difference is that none of them ever got off the boat with fantasies of colonizing France and turning it into a Buddhist state.
The presence of millions of unassimilated or poorly assimilated Muslims really is unprecedented, for France and Europe.
Martin at October 22, 2012 11:40 AM
You might not have been able to tell from my tone, or you might have had such a flaming boner in your shorts that you were going to squirt with rage anyway, but I was kinda just pulling a few random emigrant/immigrant identities out of a hat.
But, certainly, every minority faces challenges in assimilation.
Crid [Cridcomment at Gmail] at October 22, 2012 12:06 PM
Crid:
Who is using the old ways here?
Muslims: occupy territory; breed.
Western Man: nurture victim status, demand central government spend 4 trillion dollars +, to fix all problems.
The race is not always to the swift, and I'm not sure the West is all that swift.
doombuggy at October 22, 2012 12:18 PM
If we want to contain its ugliness, well need to deliver modernity's full package:
As opposed to how Shinto was tamed in Japan by Macarthur?
But, certainly, every minority faces challenges in assimilation.Like the whites in South Africa in 1980?
Stinky the Clown at October 22, 2012 12:24 PM
Is this that sync'd menses thing we sometimes hear about?
> I'm not sure the West is all that swift.
But you still live here, right? Japan has many centuries of advance in civilization over the disparate and sparsely distributed sects of Islam. There's so much snot dripping from the comment about SA that I don't see what you meant.
Crid [Cridcomment at Gmail] at October 22, 2012 1:36 PM
Is this that sync'd menses thing we sometimes hear about?
> I'm not sure the West is all that swift.
But you still live here, right? Me too. Japan has many centuries of advance in civilization over the disparate and sparsely distributed sects of Islam. There's so much sarcasm dripping from the comment about SA that I don't see what you meant.
Crid [Cridcomment at Gmail] at October 22, 2012 1:36 PM
>But you still live here, right?
Doesn't mean that will always be the case.
From above: "...our virtues aren't the ones which lined everything up for this interval of plenty & comity."
I suspect Mullah Omar thinks HIS virtues are lining things up for an interval of spiritual plenty & comity.
I don't mean to be doomer-porn about the thing, but modern tech is fortifying Islam while the West isn't making the kind of stand against it that it should.
doombuggy at October 22, 2012 4:05 PM
> Doesn't mean that will always be the case.
It does. I mean, c'mon, yes it does. Yer jus' kiddin' around, and we should go ahead and call your bluff. The United States still leads the globe for everything worth caring about. Food. Sex. Decency. Information. Sportswear.
In the immortal words of Omar Bradley –America's only five-star general– "There is no second prize."
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at October 22, 2012 5:24 PM
There is a difference between the Irish, Chinese, Vietnamese, Mexican/Hispanic and Italian, et. al. "invasions" from Europe, Asia, South America. They will have enclaves, ghettos, barrios, etc. occur.
But over time they integrate with the native population. Yes, there are still the new immigrants that take a while to integrate, but the <community> slowly either takes care of itself or allows the local legal forces in and follows the generally accepted local standard.
Muslim enclaves don't integrate and kill off their own for not following Sharia. That is plain and simple.
It's like some of the Mormon communities in Utah. But most Mormons don't put fatwa's out on the young people who decided to leave the community.
Jim P. at October 22, 2012 8:12 PM
> That is plain and simple.
And kinda paranoid.
Wanna change your life? Read this book. It's twenty years old... But of course, in the environment, there's truly nothing new under the sun.
Rathje explores all the kinds of waste that people get most upset about, compares them to the ones which are actually most troublesome, and considers the solutions we're likely to embrace.
One kind of waste that people stress over is disposable diapers. I don't remember his numbers, but when he surveys public opinion, people offer comically huge percentages for the space in our landfills taken by disposable diapers.
And then he lets this fly: "Disposable diapers are not an acquired taste."
If you've ever had to swaddle a baby in anything else – something you'd have to wash or have washed for you – you'll remember the first time you saw that cooing little shitbeast grinning up at you from a loaded Pamper... 'Not a problem, you adorable little fuckbun! C'mere! Coo-coo-joo!'
All of modernity is like that; you don't have to learn to like it. Once you know it's there and it can be yours, you're in. You are, in the Mafia sense of the word, "made."
Here's the problem with ghettos, and we've known about it for years: They leak.Achmed promises his cousins that he'll never miss prayers or skip the mosque on some summer afternoon to go river tubin' with the White Devils. But eventually some hip-swingin' blond with Maybelline wafting off her eyelashes catches his attention and gets him a job at her brother-in-law's construction site, where he learns to drink beer and wear Nascar t-shirts.
Or from the other side of the ledger, we hear the popular songs....
There's nothing especially demented about the Muslim soul. They're as adaptable, educable, and corruptible as anybody.Crid [CridComment at gmail] at October 22, 2012 9:15 PM
Blue vinyl at about six seconds.
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at October 22, 2012 9:26 PM
The United States still leads the globe for everything worth caring about. Food. Sex. Decency. Information. Sportswear.
***
This statement sums up what is wrong with America. Americans think they are the best at everything, and think, "We don't need to adapt, we are the best at everything, we're great, we don't need to focus on what's going on everywhere else or get ideas from anyone else".
But that's off-topic.
Lenora, your point is the key. What do you think would have to change for people to want to have more kids?
NicoleK at October 22, 2012 11:21 PM
> Americans think they are the best at everything
We're so much better at the important stuff that we needn't be lectured by idiot practitioners of lesser cultures. We're covering this in a nearby thread... I won't be told how the world ought to work by a country that can't defend its own borders, that can't exploit the genius and work of its women, that can't richly integrate its minorities, that can't care for its retarded as we do, and on and on.
You're right: We don't need to "get ideas from anyone else."
If you want to say something well-bounded and thoughtful about being open-minded, well, that'd be just ducky.
But pretending that there's some vast, untapped code for excellence out there that America has ignored is ludicrous. We know far more about that other nations of the world than they know about each other because we can afford to travel to them... They focus on us because we are by far the world's leaders economically, intellectually, socially and morally. As PJ O'Rourke said, we're an incredibly beautiful 20-year-old woman, and the rest of the world is a hopelessly-in-love 14-year-old boy, and he fears we don't know he's alive.
Don't kid yourself... This place is the best. You may have punishing disappointments in your own life, but the United States in America almost certainly has little to do with them.
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at October 23, 2012 5:22 AM
Actually, the rest of the world is NOT a hopelessly-in-love 14-year-old boy. Some places may be. But the thing is... we are losing our soft power.
Your "things that matter" is very vague.
We are not the best at educating our youngsters, we do not have the best health or longest life expectancy, we do not have the most Nobel prizes per capita, we do not have the highest standard of living, we do not have the lowest debt or unemployment rates, we do not have the lowest drug use rates, we do not have the lowest murder rates...
... so I'm really not getting how we are the world's leaders "economically, intellectually, socially and morally". By which yardstick are you measuring these things?
We are falling behind, particularly in the field of technology. I see this as a problem. I would like to see the US continue to do well, but I see it slipping. This bothers me, and I would like it rectified.
You sound like a parent who says, "My little angel is PERFECT" as a way to avoid parenting.
And I did quite well in the US, thank you, which had very little to do with me as a person (I am a very flawed one) and everything to do with luck of the draw. And now I'm doing well elsewhere. Knock on wood.
NicoleK at October 23, 2012 6:05 AM
> Your "things that matter" is very vague.
You're whining, and it's pathetic. I can't remember where you live, but I remember that its a nation stroking its socialist wood under the military shelter of the armed forces of the United States of America.
Furthermore, you slip too readily between "We are falling behind" and "doing well elsewhere." You're proud to have taken the candy and run away as the pram rolled down the sidewalk... But we are not impressed, as yours is not a perspective of courage, maturity or virtue. Specifically, a lot of the things on your list are elisions. And I'd love to dig into it, but I gotta gota work.
I'll have more comments for you to enjoy here later. For now, please understand that I regard your system of belief as inchoate and ignoble (where not fully reprehensible).
Crid [Cridcomment at Gmail] at October 23, 2012 6:28 AM
Seriously, you're a nasty little woman.
Crid [Cridcomment at Gmail] at October 23, 2012 6:30 AM
Japan has many centuries of advance in civilization over the disparate and sparsely distributed sects of Islam. There's so much sarcasm dripping from the comment about SA that I don't see what you meant
Crid, you old cocksucker, brian was right a few months ago when he called you an asshole. Since Japan has so many centuries of advance in civilization, it had to be bombed into submission to tame Shinto? Is that your point? There was no tolerance in pre WWII Shinto.
Of course you see what I meant about RSA, but I'll type it for ya: did the government of pre-1990 RSA encourage the minority population to assimilate into the majority?
Stinky the Clown at October 23, 2012 6:33 AM
No, seriously... You're so congestively pissed off that I couldn't see what you were trying to say.
Longer response later. May take a couple days, this is a big week of work. Be sure and keep checking back... You're wrong about everything, and I want to correct you.
Crid [Cridcomment at Gmail] at October 23, 2012 7:13 AM
Crid is my favorite commentator.
It pains me to argue with him.
But life was good on the deck of the Titanic.
Can America maintain the things of which you brag?
I see the line of civilizational attainment sloping downward in the US. Will there still be blondes to woo the Muslims in the future?
doombuggy at October 23, 2012 7:22 AM
Lenona, your point is the key. What do you think would have to change for people to want to have more kids?
Posted by: NicoleK at October 22, 2012 11:21 PM
_______________________________
Don't understand why you're asking, since I made it clear that I didn't see how it would make any real difference. Young people abandon their parents' religions, politics, etc. all the time.
I can't imagine why any couple could or should want more than two kids, if that's what you meant.
But aside from that, I suspect the ONLY thing that might make childfree people think twice would be if the global population were to drop to 1 or 2 billion at the most. That is, *I* wouldn't change my mind, but other people would understandably feel more significant and valued than they do in a world of 7 billion, and reproduction (as a "good" thing) wouldn't seem so overrated as it is now. As Bill Maher said, it's no wonder pregnant women get less adoration than they used to; getting pregnant is "something a dog can do."
Or, as the late Quentin Crisp said: "Nothing except diamonds is above the level of scarcity value."
I don't see any way around that.
Finally: Try asking all the fence-sitters out there what's stopping them from having kids. A lot of it has to do with financial fears, I understand. (Though, of course, many are broke because they refuse to live frugally, since being frugal in the U.S. is very often thought of as degrading, depressing, and the mark of a loser. How can you prove you're successful if strangers can't pick you out in a crowd - unless you go around bragging loudly about how you've been debt-free since age 25?)
Not to mention that many single people suddenly find themselves surrounded by undesirable divorced parents after age 30 - and/or find that people over 30 are just too set in their ways. All because they didn't make up their minds good and early whether they WANTED marriage or children and so didn't start looking early enough.
lenona at October 23, 2012 7:37 AM
>"I won't be told how the world ought to work by a country that can't defend its own borders, that can't exploit the genius and work of its women, that can't richly integrate its minorities, that can't care for its retarded as we do, and on and on."
The country not defending its borders is US! Are we even a counry? How does "integrating minorities" become a strength when the minority subsumes the majority? (Fresno cough)
A culture needs to be measured by its survivability. Matriarchies (like ours) don't survive, except in a severely limited way.
I will now hit the "submit" button.
doombuggy at October 23, 2012 1:57 PM
The solutions write themselves. In contrast with Europe, and despite having some of the largest Muslim communities outside the Islamic world (e.g. Dearborn, MI), the, US has virtually none of these issues with atavistic Islam.
So Europe needs to look at what we do, and what we are, and do more of both those things.
Also, read Infidel.
It's all there in black & white.
Jeff Guinn at October 23, 2012 2:35 PM
US has virtually none of these issues with atavistic Islam.
???
You mean like Nidal Hasan? Muhammad Atta?
I guess they don't count.
doombuggy at October 23, 2012 4:04 PM
> Can America maintain the things of
> which you brag?
Maybe! It's possible! We have a lot of things going for us.
> when the minority subsumes the majority?
> (Fresno cough)
There are 311,591,917 people in the United States, 510,365 in Fresno. And I'd wager not all Fresnoidians think of themselves as "subsumed."
> We are not the best at educating our
> youngsters
Who you callin' we, Paleface? Did I make that point clearly enough? Let's move forward.
Perhaps not best at educating in schools, but larnin' takes many forms. I'd rather have children of American character building my society than any other. And we've nonetheless got more of the best schools than anyone... More than the rest put together.
> we do not have the best health or longest
> life expectancy
Again with the we. I'm starting to think this is a subtle signal from your interior life....
Others may live healthier, but in America we have choices about how to live which mean more to me than other blessings. Again, as PJ O'rourke once put it, I'd rather be a junkie in a New York City jail. I've seen with my own eyes that there are more important things in life that getting old.
> we do not have the most prizes
> per capita
We we we. You hear yourself doing that, right?
Many Nobel laureates are flatly evil; many Scandinavians are plainly idiots.
> we do not have the highest standard of living
I'm sorry that more people haven't seen their personal wealth & security expand so aggressively over their lifetime as in my case, but I'm pretty certain that for someone like me, it wasn't going to happen anywhere else... And that if it had, I'd have become a clucking, irresponsible coward, as have so many sheltered Europeans.
> we do not have the lowest debt or
> unemployment rates,
Weweweweeee. When will you stop that? The debt is a problem, but people all over the globe are figuring that out. The American worker still leads the planet in productivity.
Moar!
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at October 23, 2012 6:04 PM
> we do not have the lowest drug use rates
Y'know, with this we thing, I think you've let an emotional tic interrupt your interrogation almost percussively, distracting yourself as well as the reader.
There's more to life than sobriety in any case.> we do not have the lowest murder rates...
Exactly which country are we living in, Nicole?
Absolutely... Americans are a spirited people. A lot of them came here because they knew there was a fundamental mechanism for defending their well-being, a tool available nowhere else on the planet.
I gotta gota work again. You're still wrong though... More later.
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at October 23, 2012 6:20 PM
Questions for Crid:
>Could you and the once and future Fresnoidians go to the moon, if you really wanted to?
>If the Golden Gate bridge fell into the harbor, would it be rebuilt? Could it be rebuilt?
I say no. We've lost the ability. Signs of the times.
doombuggy at October 23, 2012 6:51 PM
Two is pretty darn close to virtually none.
The US does not particularly worry about restive, resentful, violence prone Muslims.
Europe does, a lot.
Read Infidel.
Jeff Guinn at October 23, 2012 10:57 PM
@Jeff Guinn
The US does not particularly worry about restive, resentful, violence prone Muslims.
The percentage of muslims in us is less that that in europe and hence the number of incidents is less. Once the percentage is more, you will find incidents happening with equal frequency. Currently, issues happen in dearborn michigan where there are so many arabs and usa is such a huge country with vastly spaced out towns unlike europe where the towns are crowded and cramped. But how long will you keep avoiding the problem instead of tackling it head on?
Redrajesh at October 24, 2012 12:23 AM
> We are falling behind, particularly in the
> field of technology.
We! OK? It's goofy, it's weird, it's not just indecisive, it's not just divided... It's inane.
The largest company in the country, and perhaps the world, is a California technology firm. The necessity of American character and talent in that success is a galactically-recognized certainty. No one else could even come close to engendering that sort of adoration from buyers, working stiffs who are eager to pay the extra margins.
Also, "the field of technology" is kind of a weird locution. Who does better tech? Japanese? Sony's hurtin'. Blaupunkt is kaput, right? Nokia got into bed with Microsoft.
> You sound like a parent who says, "My
> little angel is PERFECT" as a way to avoid
> parenting.
Sugar, I ain't your Daddy, and the United States of America ain't my baby girl.
I'm not surprised that a European arriviste would be confused on this point. The entire mentality over there seems unable to consider government except in patterns of family.... I think it's because of the Kings and Queens and children's stories about handsome princes and princesses with pretty hair. As the them of this blog post illustrates, an expansive Islam finds fertile soil in that mentality.
> And I did quite well in the US, thank you
If I've expressed concern for your well-being, you read it wrong. Your tone, blindness to meaningful identities, and perhaps your residence itself assure us that you're taking care of yourself.
> you old cocksucker, brian was right a few
> months ago when he called you an asshole.
This page records a surfeit of aggression.
> There was no tolerance in pre WWII Shinto.
Who said there was? How did you get from the passage you quoted from me to anything that followed? And why are you all foamy about it?
> did the government of pre-1990 RSA encourage
> the minority population to assimilate into
> the majority?
It matters? Did someone say it did?
> Could you and the once and future Fresnoidians
> go to the moon, if you really wanted to?
Yes. It would cost a lot of money. That technology was lost in dispersal because it cost too much anyway. If there were a practical purpose, a competitive marketplace for moon shots would readily appear. It happened the first time for other reasons.
> If the Golden Gate bridge fell into the harbor,
> would it be rebuilt? Could it be rebuilt?
> I say no. We've lost the ability.
Again, there aren't that many Golden Gates requiring such ornamental work. Nor can government move so quickly to pay off contractors as it did nearly a century ago. Environmentalists and other super-empowered individuals slow things down when people try to pull stunts like that. This isn't entirely bad news: In many respects, the World Trade center was an abomination, and we can be glad it won't go back up as it did in the 1970s.
I understand that technologies can be lost. We've been told for a long time that the Panama Canal couldn't have been built after about 1920, because that engineering insight was lost... But I've also heard they're in the process of widening it.
Dude... Seriously... The GGB is a one-time event in human history. There have been some other great bridges lately, but try to understand the singularity of that piece, and how it expressed so much of what was going on in the world at the time. Those forces are gone, so we won't get another one. What stands there now is a remarkable instance of authenticity.
This is what I was getting at last week when talking about the outstanding Asian guitars from Ebay. When mere authenticity is struck from the exchange, then prices tumble and everyone gets their own bridge.
CridComment@gmail.com at October 24, 2012 1:43 AM
The theme of this blog post...
OK, goodnight
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at October 24, 2012 1:44 AM
Dear Crid,
When you say something costs too much, it is the same as saying we can't do it.
The theme of this blog post is that Belgian culture cannot stand against Islamic culture. You assure us that American culture will. But culture follows the people. What you promote is largely Anglo-Saxon derived: rule of law, relative political freedom. The people who follow us, the ones that took the time and effort to have kids, may be a different people, and have a different agenda, and won't be so anxious to commercialize a moon shot, or build a canal, or an ornamental bridge.
doombuggy at October 24, 2012 5:30 AM
> When you say something costs too much, it
> is the same as saying we can't do it.
Nope, it's the same as saying we won't.
You could nail the girl at the juice cart you pass on the way to work every morning, right? She thinks you're cute and she needs the thrills... Hers is a simple spirit. A couple glasses of wine, some chatter about that time you went diving at Titicaca, and boom, you're in.
But your wife would be pee eye ess tee pissed.
It's a values call.
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at October 24, 2012 9:42 AM
Not the same thing.
I'm still getting sex. Just not from the juice cart girl.
I'm not getting any manned space program.
doombuggy at October 24, 2012 11:48 AM
This page records a surfeit of aggression.
Nah, Crid, you're just reading into it. It was a chiding, sort of like Christopher Robin to Pooh: "You silly old bear".
Who said there was?
Good gravy, you need to twist yourself into a pretzel to continue your line of thought.
Not the same thing.
Baint no use argufying with he.
But how long will you keep avoiding the problem instead of tackling it head on?
That's the point.
Stinky the Clown at October 24, 2012 12:09 PM
> That's the point.
What? What do you want others to know?
> I'm still getting sex. Just not from the
> juice cart girl.
Did you see the tits on that creature? She's gorgeous! The point is that getting your ass laid, or into space cheaply, isn't the responsibility of the larger culture... Anyone who meets your need will expect things in return. It will be a private arrangement, though we all wish you Godspeed and a safe return. Remember to wear a helmet... Capiche?
> I'm not getting any manned space program.
You're not getting flying cars, either. No express subway from Sioux Falls to Hattiesburg; no free Ferrari for community college graduates. All these transportation daydreams are within our reach, if only we could convince others to pay for then. When you say "I'm" not getting something, you shouldn't pretend that you were, on a personal level, prepared to make any special investment, or take any kind of risk. You want a fully developed consumer market without any pain from building one. But it took nearly a century of clumsy roiling in oil & automobile culture before you had three gas stations on the same streetcorner, each trying to undercut the others by a cent. Millions of players around the world had to do a lot of work — and trust that reliable systems were in place elsewhere in the chain — before your penny was a fight worth having.
PS- Tito's mountaintop place in L.A. You need Google Earth to really appreciate the city and ocean views.
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at October 24, 2012 1:39 PM
>> I guess they don't count.
> Two is pretty darn close to virtually none.
This is a good point. We've lost thousands of young men in our inner cities this year to violence every bit as gruesome as what Hasan brought to Fort Hood. (And I think the distress in the hearts of the killers I much the same.)
And the reference to Atta doesn't fit: His anger was obviously nourished elsewhere and by others. Would the solution therefore be to do some kind of Star Trek Spock Vulcan brain exploration before we let people into the country?
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at October 24, 2012 1:54 PM
> But how long will you keep avoiding the
> problem instead of tackling it head on?
What would a 'head-on tackle' be, exactly?
The life of the modern American is so much richer than that of a typically primitive devout Muslim extremist, and so apparently richer, that living fully in our deepest sexual, financial, intellectual and political freedom may be the best offense.
And I mean 'offense' in every sense of the word. Because sometimes hurting people's feelings isn't just a steaming wad of indulgent fun... It's our responsibility.
As decent Americans.
Goddammit, I'm going to do my part!
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at October 24, 2012 2:08 PM
We should do more like this.
(Don't say it's out of tune, OK?)
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at October 24, 2012 2:10 PM
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