Anti-Bullying Programs: Teaching Kids To Remain Victims
Through reading a review of Greg Lukianoff's new book, Unlearning Liberty: Campus Censorship and the End of American Debate, I discovered the thinking on bullying of Izzy Kalman, of Bullies2Buddies, whom I'm hoping to have on my radio show. Here's an interview with him on Education News:
1. First of all, what got you interested in bullies and bullying?I'm not interested in bullies and bullying - and neither should anyone else be. Society's current obsession with bullies is little more than a witch-hunt - the most massive and popular witch hunt in the history of the world. The idea of trying to get rid of bullies sounds so good that I have never heard anyone question its value.
Everyone on the political spectrum, from the far right to the far left, has embraced the anti-bully movement. Every religion has jumped on the anti-bully bandwagon. Unfortunately, witch-hunts inevitably never succeed in eradicating the epidemic that initiated them, and cause more harm than good.
What I am interested in is victims and victim behavior. When I teach you how not to be a victim, no one can bully you. You don't have to wait for society to get rid of bullies for you to become happy.
Though we may not always think of it in such terms, the mental health professions have always been about helping victims to change, for everyone who comes asking for help feels like a victim. Unfortunately, we haven't done such a good job at this, which is why psychotherapy is often expected to take many months or years, and why the success rate is nothing to rave about. (For example, most people who go to marriage counseling end up getting divorced.) I believe the professions began asking, "But why should the victim have to change? The victim is the good one. Their problems are caused by abusers [and more recently, 'bullies.']. Let's promote mental health by fighting for laws against abuse." So, our professions began trying to promote mental health by fighting for laws against abuse and bullying. Which means that we are looking for legal solutions to the problem because psychological ones aren't working. The mental health professions today are becoming increasingly a branch of the legal justice system and less one of science.
But making abuse illegal doesn't make abuse disappear. It just changes who we deal with. So today, instead of trying to get victims to change, we are trying to make abusers change. And you know what we discover? It is not so easy to help abusers, either - after all, they are personality disordered and have no conscience! But I believe that our own conscience feels better failing to help evil abusers (and bullies) than failing to help poor, innocent victims.
Over two decades ago, I developed a very simple, effective way of teaching people not to be victims. My technique is grounded in simple principles that are consistent with all major schools of psychology, philosophy and religion. But after Columbine, I saw that the country was dealing with the problem in exactly the wrong direction. Instead of teaching kids how not to be victims, which is the only reliable way to reduce bullying, we began trying to target and eradicate bullying. I knew that such an approach was bound to make the situation worse, and I began warning about this - and research has since borne out my predictions.
...Bullying is said to be skyrocketing in the country in recent years. During the same period, anti-bully programs have been proliferating. Shouldn't bullying be going down with all our anti-bully education? No one is daring to put two and two together to realize that bullying is on the rise because of our anti-bully programs. School mental health professionals have told me things like, "Ever since our school adopted its anti-bully program, we're having three times as much bullying as before." Thanks to my website and my seminars, I am in touch with school mental health professionals throughout the country. Some of them love the sense of power they get from going after bullies. Most of them, though, have become miserable because their schools' anti-bully policies have turned them into security officers, policemen, detectives and judges. They did not go into the mental health professions to become law enforcement agents.
In the Dec. 2004 issue of the School Psychology Review - the research journal of the National Association of School Psychologists - a paper was published that was so important it should have made headlines in every newspaper and caused uproar in the Western World. If the news has fallen on any ears, they have been deaf ears. A Canadian psychologist, J. David Smith, conducted a meta-analysis of all the published research on whole-school anti-bullying programs. Do you know what he discovered? The great majority of these programs produced no benefit at all or even made the problem worse. Only a small minority showed a mild benefit.
And who knows what the researchers would come up with if they actually set out to measure the harmful effects of these programs.
Izzy's Psych Today blog is here.
South Park covered this in their Butterballs episode.
(of course, South Park should not be viewed by anyone)
I R A Darth Aggie at November 5, 2012 7:28 AM
I question whether bullying is actually "on the rise." The attention given to bullying is certainly on the rise, but kids have always been assholes to each other. Before, it was seen as part of the natural order. The response was "Boys will be boys" or "Kids need to work this stuff out for themselves." That's lazy.
I like that, at the very least, we're no longer taking this approach. We'll see what is actually effective, but teaching kids that being assaulted and/or humiliated regularly is a normal part of every day life is no way to do it, either.
First, I think we need to stop this whole "Bullies and their victims are punished equally" approach. We shouldn't be punishing kids for defending themselves.
MonicaP at November 5, 2012 8:35 AM
my argument, even before the words were popular, was how do you make resilient kids? I've had many an interesting convo with my Mom who is a teacher about the question... she doesn't agree entirely, but she has seen firsthand how the current approach by schools isn't really working. Since #1son has aspergers, we have had some issues with this over the years. He usually ignores most kids, but there has been a time or two that he hauled off and slugged the bully who was taunting or breaking/stealing his stuff.
Had the stern talking to by the principal and such. I asked about the other kid and SUDDENLY... "oh, this isn't the first time he's gotten into a scuffle." The other kids had gotten into trouble too, but not the instigator.
So who is the problem there? The quiet kid that is always reading a book, or the kid that has been in a number of fights with many different kids? Regular bullying is easy, but sly bullies are experts at getting other kids to do things for them, or getting other kids in trouble, and are MUCh harder to deal with.
In any case, I have seen several times where the 'reforming the bully' is simply not successful. To the point where #1son had to change schools.
Essentially neither approach is good all by itself, but it IS certain in my opinion that we are making a lot of children LESS resilient to all manner of things that are going to be hard in their lives, not JUST bullies.
SwissArmyD at November 5, 2012 8:59 AM
...Bullying is said to be skyrocketing in the country in recent years. During the same period, anti-bully programs have been proliferating. Shouldn't bullying be going down with all our anti-bully education? No one is daring to put two and two together to realize that bullying is on the rise because of our anti-bully programs.
Alternatively (and more likely), the proliferation of anti-bullying programs leads to more reporting of bully behavior.
I just spent half an hour reading this guy's prescription against bullying. Here's a representative sample:
But what if someone does really hurt you? Unless your life is in danger, don't hit back. If you hit back, then you might get into trouble along with the kid who hit you. Also, he may hit you back even harder, and the fight will get worse and worse.
What, then, should you do? If you weren't injured so badly that you need first-aid from a nurse or doctor, calmly let the kid know how hurt you are. Don't sound mad, because that will only make him madder at you. Chances are that he'll even apologize at this point.
Don't hit back; let him know he succeeded in hurting you; and "chances are" he'll apologize.
Who is this Dr. Quacko?
Kevin at November 5, 2012 9:28 AM
I have two kids. While they are together, if one gets in trouble, both get the same punishment. It prevents one kid from trying to get the other one in trouble. Any adult has seen this type of taunting to get someone else in trouble numerous times. The adults have been taught to ignore the taunting and only punish the "bully."
I know parents who were called into school after their son punched someone who BIT him. He apparently was supposed to politely ask the biter to stop.
Curtis at November 5, 2012 10:28 AM
Bullshit. People can make victims of you, all they need to do it be bigger than you and really want to hurt you. I think not tolerating bullying in schools is absolutely a good thing. You can't learn if you're terrified.
Society gets the bahavior it allows. Not allowing bullying, at least in publicly funded institutions that kids have no choice whether to atttend or not, is a start.
I think the answer is to simply kick out assholes who want to pick on others, but that's me. I'm not big on "working" with offenders of any kind.
Yeah, some kids ask for it to get others in trouble. But plenty are also simply made to exist in hell because they caught some asshole's eye.
We are teaching our kids the difference in aggression and defending oneself. And they k now that WE will never get them in trouble if they were defending themselves. I can't speak for the school, but our principal is pretty no-nonsense and not very PC, so I think we'd be okay.
momof4 at November 5, 2012 1:35 PM
I was in Augusta, GA, and a few clueless women were circulating a petition to get Congress to do something about bullying.
I asked them if they were happy with how the government was working already, and what they wanted some government agent to do.
No answer.
Gee, somebody else, solve this problem for me! I'm helpless!!
Radwaste at November 5, 2012 2:45 PM
As far as I can tell, the enlightened, progressive, politically correct way to respond to a bully is to try to suck up and grovel enough to make him feel guilty or at least satisfy his desire to humiliate you.
Ken R at November 5, 2012 3:19 PM
Psychology Today ran an article some time back about bullying and described how most of the time, they're the bright students and gung-ho athletes.
The article finished with the same garbage about not giving bullies the attention they crave, but left out the more obvious: Teach the other kids how to play the bully's game!
jefe at November 5, 2012 5:35 PM
"Don't hit back; let him know he succeeded
in hurting you; and "chances are" he'll
apologize.
Who is this Dr. Quacko?"
That sounds like it's the same kind of thinking that leads to suggestions of never punishing children. The same kind that talk about treating your toddler like an adult who just happens to be in a smaller body, so talk to them, explain why they were wrong, etc. That might work in a very tiny % of kids out there, but in general has lead to spoiled kids who realize they can get away with just about anything. After growing up, they're out blaming everyone else for all their problems and demanding the gov't and others provide for their desires.
Basically that's part of the line of thinking that has led to a lot of the mindset of the Occupy and similar types.
Miguelitosd at November 5, 2012 6:03 PM
We have to attack bullying on all fronts.
One way is to make kids more "bully proof." Studies have shown that the kids that get picked on are those that react in a strongly negative ways to bullying.
Bullys contrary to popular belief, are more socially adept and use bullying to establish their place in the "pecking" order at the beginning of the year, and then stay out of the fray. They tend to do well and actually popular with both students and teachers.
Continuing problems are then left to those kids that are lower on the social ladder.
As a teacher, it is difficult for me to sort it all out. Is the student starting something or reacting to something? When students are really reacting to each other, the classroom is severely affected. Each student seems to be vying to be top dog and insisting that the Other student started it. The Other student is the bully. Conflicts may have started years before they stepped into my classroom.
I generally do not allow any exchanges of words, however, controlling the exchange of looks is more difficult to monitor. Of course, looks lead to words, which often leads to violence. It is no help when parents ask children to defend themselves because, believe me, they all feel like victims.
Children often have trouble with perspective. My students really began to turn on one of their fellow students who has trouble controlling his behavior. They were angry because I am always nice to this young man and he "never gets in trouble." I have quietly reprimanded him and I have spoken to his mother three times in the last two weeks. I can only imagine what they tell their parents. His mother and I are working to improve his behavior. If students take things into their own hands by treating him poorly, It just exaberates the problem rather than solve it - especially when said young man is 12 years old, 5' 10, about 230, and has trouble with impulse control.
One of the best things that we can do collectively is not to let bullying pay off. If kids and adults can call out bullying quietly and calmly, it may make a difference.
Jen at November 5, 2012 6:05 PM
I know that things have changed with the constant contact of FB and Twits.
But the main thing is let the child have as much or as little contact as desired with the classmates as they desire.
I didn't care for anyone in my high school. I went to my graduation ceremony, by force, from my mother.
All I wanted was the fucking diploma. I had zero interest in knowing a single asshole I graduated with. I still don't 25+ years on.
The requirement to give cupcakes to everyone in elementary school, or invite them to a party, to the enforcement of parents to have a surprise birthday party at 12 with all the neighbor kids, etc., tries to reinforce this idea you have to like everybody.
I didn't care at 12 and I don't care now.
A coworker (guy) and I were re-arranging desks in a cubicle today. A different employee popped in and said "You guys are doing a good job." All I could think and quietly voiced to the other "I have always striven for <her> approval." It took all his efforts not to break out laughing.
Jim P. at November 5, 2012 8:37 PM
Jim, doncha know that Not giving everyone a cupcake is bullying? And I do think that it is rude to pass out invitations or talk about parties in front of those who are not invited. If you're not going to invite everyone, then mail the invitation.
I had one son that was often left out. He is a lot like you. Perhaps it hurt me more than it hurt him. Feelings are going to be hurt, but we don't have to rub it in (which you obviously know or you wouldn't have bothered to lower your voice.)
Jen at November 5, 2012 8:47 PM
"I like that, at the very least, we're no longer taking this approach. We'll see what is actually effective, but teaching kids that being assaulted and/or humiliated regularly is a normal part of every day life is no way to do it, either."
Yup, I tend to agree .. I think parts of society are finally admitting that bullying is wrong and that we should do something about it. This is a major step forward. Bullying is not on the rise - bullying awareness is.
I think any approach must be two-pronged. First prong is teach kids to stand up for themselves, and how to do so. Second prong is to be much stricter with bullies, and have harsh punishments. If something is criminal if you're an adult, it should be criminal if you're a teen ... e.g. physical assault is a crime if you're an adult. So do it as a teenager, you should be tried for a crime and sent to juvenile detention. You cannot claim a 13-year old doesn't understand it's wrong to punch someone just for fun.
"First, I think we need to stop this whole "Bullies and their victims are punished equally" approach. We shouldn't be punishing kids for defending themselves."
We should be applauding kids for defending themselves.
"As a teacher, it is difficult for me to sort it all out. Is the student starting something or reacting to something? When students are really reacting to each other, the classroom is severely affected."
I applaud that you're at least trying - in my experience, most teachers just don't even give a shit. But I was a bullying victim as a child and I really can't understand this. I was bullied so many times in front of teachers and they just watched and did nothing ... how could teachers be so oblivious? One bully in particular literally physically beat and kicked and pushed me basically every day for years. I did nothing because he was three times my size. The same teachers would just watch, every day, and do nothing ... just watch me get pummeled, do nothing ... how can you not possibly see who is the victim and who is the aggressor in such a situation?
Lobster at November 7, 2012 3:45 AM
"But what if someone does really hurt you? Unless your life is in danger, don't hit back" ... "What, then, should you do? If you weren't injured so badly that you need first-aid from a nurse or doctor, calmly let the kid know how hurt you are. Don't sound mad, because that will only make him madder at you. Chances are that he'll even apologize at this point."
This is the single-most retarded piece of shit advice I have ever read in my entire life, on anything. Ever.
Lobster at November 7, 2012 3:49 AM
"Children often have trouble with perspective. My students really began to turn on one of their fellow students who has trouble controlling his behavior. They were angry because I am always nice to this young man and he "never gets in trouble.""
Sounds to me like they're displaying an intrinsic sense of fairness ... if they are getting that perception, maybe there is a reason.
"People can make victims of you, all they need to do it be bigger than you and really want to hurt you. I think not tolerating bullying in schools is absolutely a good thing. You can't learn if you're terrified."
Yup, yup and yup. I was one of the smallest at school, and to make matters worse, I was bullied at home too ... the one person who is supposed to teach a boy how to stand up for himself (my father) instead was also bullying me at home (as did my older siblings). And worse, for decades I really took to heart all the 'messages' from society telling me all this was somehow my fault, my failing. In hindsight I now understand how little chance I had ... it wasn't my failing, it was the schools, it was my parents ... sometimes you really have been a victim of something, and realizing that is helpful to moving on from it.
"I think the answer is to simply kick out assholes who want to pick on others, but that's me. I'm not big on "working" with offenders of any kind."
Likewise. We already expect kids to e.g. know it's wrong to steal, and that they will be punished if they steal ... surely they can equally be taught it's wrong to commit physical assault?
My kids will be taught according to meaningful and consistent moral principles ... e.g. never hit someone, unless defending yourself or someone else, and I'll send them for classes to make sure they learn how to fight (e.g. martial arts, for both boys and girls). If the school has a major problem with my child defending him/herself I'll homeschool instead.
Sorry for long posts.
Lobster at November 7, 2012 4:07 AM
"Shouldn't bullying be going down with all our anti-bully education?"
We don't need "education", all kids KNOW it's wrong to beat up other kids. We need meaningful and actually-applied punishments, based on sensible and consistent moral principles (i.e. similar principles as we have in adult life).
Lobster at November 7, 2012 4:12 AM
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