Oh, but the things people expect! The things they deserve!

People want things like a college education, a bunch of kids, a meaningful job that provides fulfillment, a retirement, a modern standard of living with all the First World trimmings, and the concept that you can't have something if you can't afford it seems brutal and unfair. "Austerity," to use the parlance of our times.

If I, for whatever reason, never make more than $15 an hour in my life, why shouldn't I enjoy a 20-year retirement anyway? I live in America - EVERYONE should get that. What is this, Calcutta?

<sarcasm>I say those studied minds are all wrong. Let's hold a conference with this woman as the coordinator and have these people will be the main speakers.</sarcasm>

At one point, I tracked down the actual quote. Tytler's work only existed in microfiche at the library I was researching in, so I ended up with a splitting headache. I wish I had kept a copy, but the substance of the first two sentences, if not the exact words, are his. The rest reads like typical kludgy internet add-ons.

<sarcasm>I say those studied minds are all wrong. Let's hold a conference with this woman as the coordinator and have these people as the main speakers.</sarcasm>

I recovered Jim P's link below:

Original Obamaphone Lady: Obama Voter Says Vote for Obama because he gives a free Phone

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpAOwJvTOio

Oh come on Jim P. You're shooting at fish in a barrel, here. The Obamaphone lady would have made a great Halloween costume. But I think what's more pervasive (and more interesting) is the inflated sense of entitlement shown by people you'd think of as middle-class or white collar. At least the broads in your link are out and proud about voting for someone they think will, essentially, pay them to do it. Girl gotta pay the rent somehow!

But when you look at the respectable, middle-class, perhaps elderly, people in the nicer neighborhoods, you see the same sense of entitlement, but they are in complete denial about being on the dole. Their federal taxes net to nothing because the government pays them to be in debt. But they sure do expect those benefits.

But when you look at the respectable, middle-class, perhaps elderly, people in the nicer neighborhoods, you see the same sense of entitlement, but they are in complete denial about being on the dole. Their federal taxes net to nothing because the government pays them to be in debt. But they sure do expect those benefits. -- Pirate Jo at November 7, 2012 6:24 PM

Oh I know the "middle class" has the same sense of entitlement. They only worked about 40+ years and were forced to pay into Social Security system with the assurance that they would get it paid back.

Besides there is no rules that an insurer can not be the primary health care policy for anyone over 65. There is no rule that you have to take whatever payout from your retirement investment accounts by age 70. Employers aren't "penalized" for employing people over 65 or 70. But of course an employer can't fire someone for that because it would be age discrimination.
========================================

I dated a liberal Democrat lady for a few months. We were at a party for something with her adult kids and retired parents. They brought up politics.

I made the suggestion that the franchise to vote be limited to those who paid at least $1 in federal income taxes. The uproar over that, you would have thought I'd dropped my pants in the kitchen and dropped a load.

Well Jim P., that's what you get for making the very reasonable suggestion that voting be linked directly to paying taxes. In my condo association, you don't get to vote in the annual meeting unless you are current on your dues. Nobody gets out of their share of the lawn care or snow removal just because they "don't make enough money," either. And why should they? The snow gets bladed away from the front of their garages just like everyone else's.

Either the lawnmower guys leave a few feet square of scraggly turf for each non-payer's share of the lawn, or those homeowners are being deadbeats who expect everyone else to provide free shit for them. So it's not allowed. There is no reason why the federal government couldn't operate with an equally sane set of rules.

Speaking of the taxes/voting connection, what do you think of 16-year-olds who have jobs and pay taxes but aren't allowed to vote? Or a 75-year-old, who hasn't paid income taxes in years and lives entirely on government benefits, but who gets to vote? Who's paying for who? Maybe this is just a good illustration of why income is a silly basis for taxation.

Those old people at your party - did they not understand that the money they paid in to the system was being immediately spent on their own parents the entire time? Or did they pretend not to? The truth is the benefits you get have everything to do with current tax revenues and absolutely nothing to do with what you paid in, but good luck getting people to acknowledge that.

Actually I should correct that. If you are getting government benefits, it has more to do with current government borrowing than current tax revenues.

Speaking of the taxes/voting connection, what do you think of 16-year-olds who have jobs and pay taxes but aren't allowed to vote? Or a 75-year-old, who hasn't paid income taxes in years and lives entirely on government benefits, but who gets to vote? Who's paying for who? Maybe this is just a good illustration of why income is a silly basis for taxation.

PJ,

The 26th Amendment is a reality that we have to live with. If you want the 16 year old to have the franchise then he/she has to also give up any consideration for the parents income for Pell Grants, or other consideration. He/she can also be kicked out of the house and not be supported by the parents without any repercussion to them. Also they either have to be independent at 16 to get a drivers license or wait until 18 to get one. We work in a compromise system. I'd gladly go to a hard system if you want to. But beware of the consequences.

I was talking to a C-Store clerk the other night. They had confiscated a guys license and turned it over the to the cops. He tried for three nights to buy buy. He is less than seven days to age 21. There has to be some sort of cutoff.

Those old people at your party - did they not understand that the money they paid in to the system was being immediately spent on their own parents the entire time? Or did they pretend not to? The truth is the benefits you get have everything to do with current tax revenues and absolutely nothing to do with what you paid in, but good luck getting people to acknowledge that. -- Pirate Jo at November 7, 2012 8:05 PM

Like I said -- I should have shat on the kitchen floor; it would have been more acceptable. I shut up gracefully, but she and I broke up about three weeks later. I was glad she dumped me; but I wasn't to hurt by it.

I'm in my 40's and buying silver. I don't expect SS to be there by the time I get there. The 47% really exists. They simply don't get it.

"The average age of the world's greatest civilizations has been 200 years."

Well then, we've had quite a nice run, haven't we?

Jim P, what's a "C-Store?" - Ever seeking knowledge, Mr. T.

Jim P, what's a "C-Store?" - Ever seeking knowledge, Mr. T. -- Mr. Teflon at November 7, 2012 9:01 PM

Convenience store -- i.e. 7-11, Speedway, UDF, etc.

What kills here is the party hacks (sharks? David Axelrod cough)who line up the obamaphone people with a premarked ballot and march them into the polls. Or import them, etc. If voting was a little more volitional we wouldn't swirl the drain so quickly.

Think your taxes go from the IRS to the government?

Think again.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=mII9NZ8MMVM

The Collapse of the American Dream.

Amy..."I also don't understand the level of debt people go into on homes they cannot afford when affordable homes -- ones that seem okay, if not dreammansionish -- can be had in places other than Los Angeles for a song."

A lot of this is driven by the need of families with kids to move from neighborhoods where to public school super-suck to neighborhoods where they suck slightly less. A lot of it is driven by status-seeking, especially female status-seeking. And a lot of it, in the decade leading up to the housing bubble collapse, was driven by the media-peddled fantasy that housing was not really an expense but rather an "investment" that would go up at 10% plus per year, forever.

"I came upon an okay house for $249,000 in Maryland in the Washington Post just now."

Where, exactly?

"I came upon an okay house for $249,000 in Maryland in the Washington Post just now."

Where, exactly?

First strike against it, it's in Maryland. Second strike is if it's in PG County.

Gog - interesting video. Thanks for sharing that.

Amy - A bit of perspective on that home from someone in the area...

I live in the DC area. I live on the Virginia side of life because it is cheaper... or cheaper to live in an area that are reasonably safe with reasonable schools anyway. Both sides have hyper-expensive areas, but MD doesn't have much in "suburban" that is between ultra-wealthy/expensive and "I'd be rather afraid to live and/or send my kids to school there."

That said, my mid-unit townhome is valued upward of $300k (zillow puts it between 315 & 385). We have almost no yard, although the county prices our "land" at about 90k.

I don't doubt that there are reasonable homes for reasonable prices. However, if there is a DC 'burb single-family detached home for less than 300k it will most likely either need over 100k of work done, or be in a not-very-good area (or both). We bought only a couple years ago and my Realtor friends tell me the market really hasn't changed much. Most good homes (not in total disrepair or ridiculously overpriced) are from people moving or are being sold by estates. Our home was the only non-trashed one we found, and it was a corporate relocation.

That's one of the reasons we're looking to get OUT of this area (I dream of a yard big enough for a hammock... or at least a table and chairs). However, we didn't buy above our ability, nor are we stuck on "dream home or bust" mode.

Of course, for the price of our modest home, you could buy a mini-mansion with private river in Vegas, so it's all relative (yes, I was looking a few months ago and found one there).

To elaborate on what RPM said, Prince George's County is one of the highest-tax districts in the nation. And most of the government contractor jobs have moved around the Beltway to Virginia. Plus Maryland has that Gestapo-like traffic enforcement.

We are all kind of missing Amy's point here... there are vast swaths of America where one can find a good family home in a good neighborhood for under $200K. Of course, those places aren't cool like SoCal, NY, and DC are. And we all know that being cool is what matters most.

Shannon M., we're NoVA Rats, too. In our zip code, Realtor.com had 77 homes on the market, of which 9 were under $200K. These were smaller townhomes or condos, by and large. And there are some parts of my area I wouldn't want to live in. If we went back to Ohio where I grew up, at my current salary, we could live like royalty!

And I agree with you about Maryland. Riffing on Cousin Dave's point, it seems to me that by and large, Virginia is better run than our neighbor across the Potomac.

Last year, BF and I moved from one city in CT to the next one over, westward towards New York. It was a foreclosure and he put 20% down; the mortgage is a little less than $1,200 monthly. Ranch house, 3 bedrooms, 1 and 1/2 baths, living room, large kitchen, with an attached garage, full finished basement with laundry room, family room, work room and extra bedroom (which he turned into his mancave). Gas heat, hot water and cooking, with a gas grill on the patio that's hooked up to the gasline for the house. Fully fenced-in, fairly large back yard (we could put in a pool if we wanted, and still have room for the garden), small front yard; nice, "diverse" neighborhood. Eight years ago, the house was on the market for $275,000. We got it for a more less than half that. (We're doing okay, even though I'm still working only part time, looking for full time, but we're managing to pay the bills and still have a little left over for fun stuff. I don't know what we'll do if he gets laid off, though. Might end up selling and moving in with mom. Which would suck!)

"...a little more than half..."

Old RPM Daddy - Every now & again I wonder what life would be like if we had our income (or even half!) and were back in St. Louis. There, we did ok (certainly not great, and certainly not saving much or buying a house, but slightly beyond paycheck-to-paycheck living) on about 15k per year. Now that was just 2 of us & 1 car, but still.

This is part of what's broken in our country (IMHO). What some people consider "rich" is really lower middle class if you are where the people earning that money live. Wealth and income really aren't the same, especially comparing vastly different costs of living. It's like comparing a 1950's salary with a 2010 one. Sure, the 2010 one would be higher, but what is the purchasing power? Probably not that different.

Amy, I don't know how long ago your friend Tony moved, but the last time I looked at the Phoenix market, they were practically giving houses away. There were foreclosures listed for under $50K; they needed a lot of work, but you could put another $50K in and still have an OK house with a mortgage payment of about $650. Maybe a bit less now.

I just checked on house prices in the neighborhood where I owned my first house in the early 1990s. It's a liveable neighborhood, certianly not high end or trendy, but safe and reasonably well kept and it has a small park. Currently you can get a move-in-ready, three-bedroom house with a one-car garage for about $90K.

The onlt problem with Phx is we are 10 - 20 yrs from being the worlds largest ghost town.

No one is going to live here when a gallon of water costs more than the gas required to truck it in from the other side of the country

@lujlp: You will know the price of water is high enough, when the lawns start disappearing in Scottsdale.
My grandparents had a place in Mesa in the 60's. Almost no one had a lawn. If you got rid of the landscaping and half the golf courses, Phoenix would have no water problem.

I live on the western side of Phoenix, the old folks villages have *lakes* and fountains. I can't believe how wasteful they are, given that my water bill is over $100 a month for 3 adults, 2 dogs, a cat and 3 snakes. Sure they are pretty, we get fined by our HOA if we water the plants in our front yard, but Grandma has a lovely view!

Yeah, if I were in charge the first thing to dissapear would be those fucking lakes. Is your G-ma in Sun City or Estrella? Or Verrado; that's a nice place every yard has grass and elm trees.

That would be the second thing to go, all the palm, fig, elm, and maple trees, and all the pine below 2500ft in elevation

How mauch are you paying for water? I have 5 acres and only hit about 30 a month on water, of course I rerouted a few sinks and the tub and washer to an irrigation system for my trees, you could not do that easily in a suburb. But you could do the washer fairly quickly I suppose, its just a matter of determining whether eco freindly clothes soap is cheaper than the amount of water you'd save