I am consistently amazed by the amount of restraint that Israel shows when dealing with its adversaries.

same here at home. white=bad. non-white=good.

It's the Israelis that have the right to defend themselves. Say Palestinians do and you're a nazi terrorist evil unAmerican.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=499237120108838&set=a.136164986416055.17375.136152606417293&type=1&theater

Nicole, considering that the Palis have repeatedly rejected some very generous peace agreements, and that the Gazans voted Hamas as their government by an overwhelming majority, I'd say that at this point they deserve whatever happens to them. I'm actually kind of surprised that Israel hasn't just carpet-bombed the whole Strip.

NicoleK,

I think the "info-graphic" at that link is missing a few important details...

Let's first ask: how do you determine whose land it is?

If you say "who last won it in war" then that graphic is a mute point, because Israel won it.

If you say "who had it first" then the answer needs to go back well-before the time period of those maps.

Who had that land first? For a long time most of it was "wandering the desert" kind of desolate (remember that thing about 40 years???). Different tribes/families had different areas and maps weren't exactly easy to come by back before, say, ancient Rome. So, if you want to follow THAT thread properly (ALL the way back), you'd most likely find that it belongs in part to most people of Middle-Eastern descent. So, who should it belong to now?

If you say Palestinians, why? Should the US give all the land back to the remaining descendents of the Native Americans? What about people who are part Native American (family lore says I'm 1/128th Cherokee - do I get some?)?

We might wish to live in a time where we all just peacefully agree to borders. But, Israel has been defending, and defending, and defending its borders for decades... after having lost them entirely a couple of times (quiz time: how many times was The Temple destroyed??). I'm sure that if everyone stopped attacking Israel, most Israelis would be more than happy to leave the borders right where they are. Heck, Israel razed the Gaza strip and gave it to the Palestinians a few years ago... and now they get attacked from there on a regular basis!

What would we do if we were getting barraged by rockets from Mexico? Cuba? Would we site back and twiddle our thumbs (maybe, given some news from the border areas)? If we counter-attacked and took over parts of Mexico to prevent future attacks/make a smaller border/etc - would you say we'd have to give it back because it's "theirs?"

I wish it were otherwise, but land is only yours so long as you can keep others from taking it. In our country, that means having a nice deed to show the courts. But there's no deed for countries, only military might.

So, why is it Palestinian land that the Palestinian's lost, not Jewish land that has been reclaimed (since the destruction of the Temple)?

NicoleK -

1) That graphic is even MORE misleading than others have pointed out - because it ignores significant Arab migration into "Palestine".

The most popular last name in Gaza is "Al-Masri" which translates as "The Egyptian".

Because tens of thousands of "Palestinians" are the descendents of migrant workers who moved into the region during the British Mandate after WW1 - they could get good work building railroads, and many were (ironically) drawn by the economic opportunities the Zionists had created.

To this day, the "Palestinians" of Gaza speak a different dialect than the "Palestinians" of the West Bank... one of Yasir Arafat's initial challenges was winning the confidence of West Bank Arabs, because he spoke Egyptian Arabic.

So: The Palestinian national identity is a complete - and thoroughly modern - fabrication.

The very word "Palestine" does not appear in maps or records for over 700 years of Arab and Turkish rule... the word was dredged up out of history (remember the Philistines in the Bible?) by the British, who wanted to use a neutral word for that land that been called "Israel" or "Judea" the last time it was independent.

2) All this history leads up to 60 years of Arab intransigence and violent rejection of another people's legitimate connection to this land.

It is VERY VERY late in the day to try to cast Palis as victims - the world has been trying to broker peace deals for 30-40 years, and the Palis have repeatedly refused compromised and attacked.

Sorry - Palis weren't "victims" of Israeli aggression in 1967: they attacked and lost. Boo hoo.

It's particularly absurd to talk about "occupation" in relation to Gaza - when Ariel Sharon totally uprooted thousands of Jews and left Gaza completely Judenrein.

There is no "occupation" in Gaza - just a hell-hole of Islamic militancy. No other provocation or excuse is needed for continued attacks on innocent Jewraelis.

I guess the other way of putting this is to wonder what right France had to sell the US the Louisiana Purchase, when they didn't actually even control the land, and who owned it before that?

Hamas could stop all this instantly by accepting the right for Israel to exist, per the UN accords, and then integrating into Israel, as many have already done...

And then they could be, I dunno, prosperous, happy, well educated people... who are free to have their own religion.

If you want to wonder why this is a constant issue, wonder to yourself why they have never been allowed to find refuge in other Islamic countries that are RIGHT THERE - They are not wanted because they are a bargaining chip and a thorn is Israel's side... they are being used as human shields by their own peoples.

Ever wonder why we DON'T call the Israeli's Palestinian? They have at least as much right to the name as any, since in antiquity, all those tribes were nomadic.

Essentially most westerners cannot believe that this war has been going on for thousands of years, and will contiue as long as one side seeks to destroy.

Which side is which? Ask yourself why the technologically superior side hasn't simply wiped them all out?

Maybe they remember the Holocaust too clearly to want blood spilt like that. And yet, they also remember exactly what you get when you appease...

One last thought on this - to my understanding, there ARE Palestinian Israelis. That is, when Israel was formed, the non-Jews who were there got to pick allegiance (Palestinians too). If you chose to be with the Jews, you became a citizen of Israel. If those people want to live in Israel, I'm pretty sure they could petition for citizenship or, you know, buy a house or something.

NicoleK, IRC, if you drag that infographic into Google Image Search, you'll be able to find lots of information as to precisely who created that graphic, and why, and just how misleading it is.

I don't see why the Palestinians' claim on a homeland where Israel now exists is any less legitimate than Mexico's claim on Texas, New Mexico, Arizona and California.

Ken,

I think a better comparison would be:

Say Mexico complains to the UN that the US took TX, NM, AZ, CA.

Who had the land first? Neither. Various Native American tribes had the land.

So, the US has descendents of those people and early settlers. Mexico does too.

The US basically won those areas in war with Mexico (yes, this is very simplified).

THAT is like the problem in Israel. Both Israelis and Palestinians have roots in that land. Israel won that land in war, same as the US won much of the Southwest.

It's not "fair" but it's armies that defend a country's borders, not some one's definition of fair, or even who was there first - because that just isn't practical, as can be seen in both examples.

Of course, this is a temporary problem as my daughter is preparing for her reign as Benevolent Dictator of Planet Earth and will resolve all such disputes. She just has to grow tall enough to drive first...

Simplest solution to the ALL of humanity's problem is to kill 75% or more of the worlds humans

There isn't a human on this planet that doesn't live on land taken at some point from someone else. I don't see anyone in the US who supports the Palestinians giving their house to the nearest native american. Until they do, they need to admit their antisemitism and shut up.

Momof4,

Sorry if my sleep-deprived mommy-brain missed something there. Are you saying that, if we don't support Palestinians giving their homes to Native Americans we're anti-Semitic?

What am I missing (sarcasm maybe?)? I was with you on the first sentence, but then I lost something.

Maybe the wee-one will let me sleep tonight & it will make sense in the morning (I'm sure you understand!).

Shannon, MomOf4 made a good point, but her wording was indeed confusing.   My empty-nest daddy-of-3 brain had to read it a few times to figure it out.   MomOf4 meant to say she doesn't see any Palestinian supporters in the US offering to give up their house to the nearest native american. 

Shannon:

to my understanding, there ARE Palestinian Israelis. That is, when Israel was formed, the non-Jews who were there got to pick allegiance (Palestinians too). If you chose to be with the Jews, you became a citizen of Israel.

Yep.
Israel's population is around 15-20% Arab.
And despite the propaganda about how "Israel is an apartheid state" - they have full civil rights, are represented in the parliament, and one of our Supreme Court Justices is Arab.

More recently, Israel has started absorbing Palestinian gays - who flee to the only place in the Middle East where they won't be killed.

Ben David,

Can I assume you are Israeli?