Perhaps She Should Have Asked Him Nicely To Leave
A mom hiding in a crawl space in her house with her kids shot a guy who broke in. From Georgia's WSBTV:
The woman was working in an upstairs office when she spotted a strange man outside a window, according to Walton County Sheriff Joe Chapman. He said she took her 9-year-old twins to a crawlspace before the man broke in using a crowbar.But the man eventually found the family.
"The perpetrator opens that door. Of course, at that time he's staring at her, her two children and a .38 revolver," Chapman told Channel 2's Kerry Kavanaugh.
The woman then shot him five times, but he survived, Chapman said. He said the woman ran out of bullets but threatened to shoot the intruder if he moved.
"She's standing over him, and she realizes she's fired all six rounds. And the guy's telling her to quit shooting," Chapman said.
The woman ran to a neighbor's home with her children. The intruder attempted to flee in his car but crashed into a wooded area and collapsed in a nearby driveway, Chapman said.
UPDATED: Twitter convo follows. @MattSpahn1 first tweeted me back after he saw my tweet of the link to this blog item, and then continued his Planet Unicorn line of thinking on the correct way to greet a burglar:
The woman then shot him five times, but he survived,
Who (but the police and military) needs more than 5 rounds anyway??
Unix-Jedi at January 5, 2013 10:53 PM
Harris offers interesting 'toids.
That one fascinates me, because people don't think of themselves as (otherwise) entering a realm of vulnerability when they step into a school campus or a government office or an airport. And they probably aren't, in a meaningful statistical sense... The infinitesimal risk is multiplied so as to be merely microscopic. (The hazard of these contexts was apparent on 9/11; The monsters chose a setting where the only throats they needed to slit were those of middle-aged women who serve drinks from a rolling cart.)
importance The point isn't that people should be worried, it's just that they should remember to be grateful in some proportion to the times they choose to be fearful. Fifty-five million (first factoid) is a lot of kids, and they were safer in those schools than they were when they left them.
The videos in Harris' links are recommended for those who can watch such things without turning into survivalist zombies.Crid [CridComment at gmail] at January 6, 2013 12:08 AM
Sorry about the "importance." Problems down in the shop....
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at January 6, 2013 12:09 AM
Just a small quote from the article: "In February, Slater was arrested on simple battery charges, according to the Gwinnett County Sheriff's Office. He has been arrested six other times in the county since 2008."
He has been arrested seven times in five years; this is number eight. Presumably there were some robberies that he got away with. The legal system failed; justice has now been served in a more direct way.
a_random_guy at January 6, 2013 2:39 AM
>>she realizes she's fired all six rounds. And the guy's telling her to quit shooting
Another reason to go with something bigger than .38 and with something holding more than 6 rounds...even if they look scary (my wife's main objection way back when).
fbmc at January 6, 2013 4:29 AM
A tragity avoided. To me this would have been much worse than a burglary. Why? because he found them in a crawlspace. He didn't grab cash/valuables he searched the house for them. A simple burglar, if he suspected people were home would choose somewhere else or grab what he could and run before witnesses got a good look. But no he searched for them, and made them all eye witnesses and therefore liabilities.
Joe J at January 6, 2013 5:11 AM
Who wants to lay odds that she is charged with attempted murder and a few other "gun crimes"?
lujlp at January 6, 2013 5:16 AM
Georgia has the Castle Doctrine in place. She had no duty to even retreat to the crawl space in this case.
In most states the police and the district attorneys will look at a case like this and won't even write up any paperwork of her side.
Jim P. at January 6, 2013 5:58 AM
"Tragity"?
Anyway... this was a success because the law-abiding citizen was allowed to defend herself.
Never forget that there are those that would rather chase their fantasies than allow her an effective weapon to defend her family.
Dead mothers are a good price to pay for gun control.
Not really.
Radwaste at January 6, 2013 7:05 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2013/01/06/perhaps_she_sho.html#comment-3543441">comment from RadwasteAnother: http://bredred.com/shoots-and-kills-intruder-trying-to-get-into-daughters-room/
Amy Alkon at January 6, 2013 7:08 AM
She used 6 rounds and the guy was still in good enough condition to drive - he could just as easily have decided to attack her, and there she was with no more rounds. And this was only one attacker, imagine you need to take down two or three robbers in your home! And they say you don't need "high capacity magazines" - bullsh-t. No, you need as many as you need, and there should be no legal limitations on defending your very life from an attacker.
This is also the main reason I prefer semi-autos to revolvers.
In the movies you point a gun at the bad guy and they instantly drop, like magic. Many people don't realize it's not like this in real life ... it's actually not all that easy to give an instantly debilitating shot. For instant debilitation you basically need to hit the spine or brain. Lungs are good too, will give a relatively quick death, but in the order of minutes. But most other places that just puncture an attacker will lead to slower death, or survival. At that point a lot depends on psychology - how the perp responds to having been shot - he could run away, or could attack you.
A rule of thumb that is sometimes taught in self-defense courses is 'two to the chest, one to the head'.
Lobster at January 6, 2013 7:53 AM
'Who wants to lay odds that she is charged with attempted murder and a few other "gun crimes"'
I think it's unlikely in this case, partly because of Georgia law, partly because it seems very obvious she did attempt to hide and was cornered, and partly because the case has garnered a lot of media attention so anything like that would bring a lot of scrutiny.
Lobster at January 6, 2013 7:57 AM
"Another reason to go with something bigger than .38"
Not to turn this into an off-topic debate, but usually the caliber size doesn't make much difference in cases like this, in fact a larger caliber can be a liability, especially for a woman. I've actually read 'proper' studies that confirm this. One reason is that it's more important where you hit, than the relatively minor difference in impact energy from a larger caliber ... a .45 ripping through, say, your left arm, is not going to stop you any more than a .38 hitting the same spot. But either caliber placed correctly (e.g. spine, lungs, heart, brain) will bring you down.
But now comes the rub, so to speak - because larger calibers have the following disadvantages:
1. They are harder to handle due to larger recoil - especially for women who tend to be smaller - and how you handle recoil actually has a significant impact on your ability to aim the all-important "next shot" after each previous one. The more wild the recoil deviation, the harder (and slower) to aim. So larger caliber may mean worse shot placement.
2. Smaller ammo is in general cheaper, so you can practice more for the same amount of money, and practice is very important to getting shot placement
3. Smaller ammo = more rounds per magazine
But I also always say, choose the one you prefer actually shooting, because you need to feel comfortable (and be practiced) in using it.
Lobster at January 6, 2013 8:09 AM
Apologies for four posts in a row, but important reference for anyone interested: http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf
Lobster at January 6, 2013 8:12 AM
http://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews/crime/item/14071-the-san-antonio-theater-shooting-the-media-ignored
nonegiven at January 6, 2013 8:48 AM
In contrast to the above story consider this one, also from Georgia, on the same day, about a woman shot by burglars while trying to hide from them.
http://www.wsbtv.com/news/news/local/police-hiding-woman-shot-during-fairburn-burglary/nTmk3/
Ken R at January 6, 2013 10:42 AM
Ken, it sounds like the woman was defenseless.
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at January 6, 2013 11:09 AM
This must be very annoying to Senator Feinstein.
Gog_Magog_Carpet_Reclaimers at January 6, 2013 11:52 AM
Nah, Gog_magog... I'm sure she is confident that the media won't mention it. She's right about that.
SwissArmyD at January 6, 2013 12:14 PM
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/01/06/us-usa-guns-whitehouse-idUSBRE90508520130106
"The White House is weighing a far broader approach to curbing U.S. gun violence than just reinstating a ban on assault weapons and high-capacity magazines"
"The measures would also ... stiffen penalties for carrying guns near schools"
Uh right, like an Adam Lanza would really be worried about the 'penalties' for 'carrying guns near a school'. This is purely more criminalization of the innocent, and more disarmament of the populace against an increasingly fascist government.
Lobster at January 6, 2013 2:14 PM
(Of course, they're seeing what they can get away with, but also employing a standard negotiating tactic, ask for more than you expect to eventually concede. By floating more extreme gun control, they manipulate the populace into actually being 'relieved' when they "only" implement slightly less fascism than they initially proposed.)
Lobster at January 6, 2013 2:17 PM
Props especially for the unicorn thing, Amerz... When the recipient is oblivious, as this fellow certainly is, l find those are the little touches that pull enduring value from the moment. Go ahead, confirm his worst fears about his social worth. .. What difference does it make? Next time, he's going to come at you from a position of smug self-righteousness anyway.
Crid [Cridcomment at gmail] at January 6, 2013 3:49 PM
Only problem with your second story Amy is the local popo might press charges against that man still.
If it turns out the guy wasnt attempting to rob people but drunk off his ass the cops will press charges against him for shooting the guy who will at that time be called the 'victim'
Several tens of thousands of dollars later the charges will either be dismissed or a jury will find him not guilty - but I'm guessing the cops will charge him
lujlp at January 6, 2013 5:00 PM
Here's my Public Service Announcement:
If you decide to defend yourself with a firearm, never never never never never ever fire a warning shot. The only time you should fire a shot in self defense is if and when you feel you are in imminent danger of death or serious physical injury. If you have time for a warning shot, you are not in imminent danger, and the gun should not be fired.
That, and the shot you just threw as a warning might be needed for your defense, and you just put it into the wall or something. If the sight of your gun isn't warning enough, a loud noise coupled with a brief flash of light is unlikely to be a deterrent in a deadly force situation.
If you are not scared enough to put a round into his body, you don't have justification to fire at all.
Steve Daniels at January 6, 2013 5:06 PM
https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/ccm-columns/its-just-the-law/warning-shots/
Meloni at January 6, 2013 7:30 PM
@MattSpahn1 sounds like an incredible idiot.
There is a huge legal difference between a "trespass" and a burglary.
I agree with Steve Daniels. If you are not shooting "at him" you should not be pulling the trigger at all.
Holding someone for the police, or firing a warning shot is dangerous bullshit.
Isab at January 6, 2013 8:40 PM
You keep seeing the pessimistic side of anyone using a gun.
From what little I have talked to LEOs and other anecdotes, the large majority of the street level cops approve of self-defense and concealed carry.
It isn't always a bad thing when a civilian uses a firearm in self-defense.
Jim P. at January 6, 2013 8:43 PM
Just read your Twitter spat. Is he serious? Does he really think that a guy who breaks into a house and instead of, say, going for the electronics and (possible) jewelry and getting the heck out of Dodge hunts down the woman and children hiding in the far reaches of the house is going to be easily deterred? Does he think the invader is unaware that this woman wanted him to leave? What, exactly, does he think that guy had in mind for that woman and her little kids?
Look: Unless you are the Terminator sent back from the future to protect John Connor, if you are shooting at someone, shoot to kill. Otherwise, you run the risk of wounding the bad guy just enough to piss him off, and having him (or her) grab your gun and use it against you. Can't bear the thought of killing someone with a gun? Don't have one; it's worse than useless.
Warning shot -- snuh. If you don't want someone to shoot you, don't break into the person's house and then hunt the person down inside the house. Or hey! Break into Matt Spahn's home. You know he won't shoot first and ask questions later.
SO glad I live in a state with a castle law.
marion at January 6, 2013 9:11 PM
You keep seeing the pessimistic side of anyone using a gun.
No, I just know how Maricopa County LEOs operate, it aint about justice, its about money and publicity
lujlp at January 6, 2013 9:30 PM
I'm no gun expert, but I've taken a few courses. Some highlights I remember:
1. When selecting a gun for self-defense, you should be able to comfortably operate it. Some models that are great for one person are entirely wrong for another. I've seen several instances of women who ultimately selected a different gun than their bf/husband recommended.
2. Don't buy a gun for self-defense and leave it to gather dust in your safe. You want to practice with it frequently enough to be comfortable and competent with it. Also, you need to be comfortable accessing your locked weapon at a moment's notice. A daily routine is good practice for this. Don't let a life-threatening situation be your first rodeo in terms of handling that gun.
I have never heard a fire arms instructor advocate warning shots.
Meloni at January 6, 2013 10:17 PM
But the man eventually found the family.
End of discussion about the righteousness of the shooting.
Meloni, I wish I could follow your advice, but I live in a disarmed country.
Ltw at January 6, 2013 11:07 PM
Ha! Im my fantasy world, my unicorns are multi-colored; but they also pack heat.
Charles at January 7, 2013 3:24 AM
He survived 5 shots? Good people die from stupid little things every day (my aunt died falling off her bike) but HE survives 5 shots?
I don't give a rats ass what any lawmaker says, ever. I will always maintain the ability to protect my kids. If they jail me for it after, so be it. Fortunately, though, I live in texas.
momof4 at January 7, 2013 6:40 AM
"He survived 5 shots? Good people die from stupid little things every day (my aunt died falling off her bike) but HE survives 5 shots? "
Yeah, ironic, isn't it? He must have gotten winged a bunch. Imagine the poor lady's situation. She's almost certainly never shot at anyone before; she's scared to death, her hand is shaking, she probably can't see the guy very well, and she's blinded by muzzle flash after the first shot. She played the best hand she could with the cards she was dealt. Some time at the range might have helped, but I will not criticize. In her situation, I don't know if I would do any better.
Cousin Dave at January 7, 2013 6:59 AM
A warning shot? That guy has been watching too many movies.
KateC at January 7, 2013 8:15 AM
Nah, Cousin... but I'm thinkin he was high on somethin' here's from the news report:
"Channel 2’s Amy Napier Viteri learned from Chapman late Friday night that slater has been placed on a ventilator and suffers from punctured lungs, a punctured liver and a punctured stomach.
He said if Slater survives the night, doctors will try to operate in the morning to repair the damage.
Chapman said Slater has four exit wounds.
Slater is currently being charged with burglary."
The only thing she didn't administer was the killshot... and I'm sure she is learning that now...
SwissArmyD at January 7, 2013 10:18 AM
I'm curious how many boyfriends and husbands would recommend their girlfriends/wives fire a warning shot when a criminal has entered their home and is actively hunting them down.
Meloni at January 7, 2013 1:10 PM
The only thing she didn't administer was the killshot... and I'm sure she is learning that now...
Posted by: SwissArmyD at January 7, 2013 10:18 AM
A dangerous proposition, some jurisdictions might go after you for a "coup de grace". Some call this "winning hearts and minds. Two to the heart, one to the mind".
Sio at January 7, 2013 3:36 PM
Although having a gun in the home may mean that you end up being killed with it (see Nancy Lanza, Phil Hartman, and countless others), I'm always glad when I read stories of homeowners shooting and killing someone who broke into their home. Good to rid society of these scum.
JD at January 7, 2013 6:25 PM
1. They are harder to handle due to larger recoil - especially for women who tend to be smaller - and how you handle recoil actually has a significant impact on your ability to aim the all-important "next shot" after each previous one. The more wild the recoil deviation, the harder (and slower) to aim. So larger caliber may mean worse shot placement.
All my guns will now have laser sights.
Excellent video demonstrating their tactical advantage:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?client=mv-google&hl=en&gl=US&v=ULvsJVn1H9w&feature=youtu.be&nomobile=1
Relevant info starts at 35 seconds in.
Julie at January 8, 2013 1:32 AM
I'm a 911 dispatcher and I've taken several burglary in-progress calls where the fact that the residence is obviously occupied has not deterred the intruder(s) in the slightest.
In one recent call, the homeowner shot the intruder while I listened on the open phone line and my officers were driving to the scene as fast (and as safely) as humanly possible.
I agree 100% with all the comments above about arming yourself, staying proficient with your firearm, and thinking through and even physically moving through various scenarios in which you might need to retrieve and use your weapon.
Mental preparedness can make all the difference.
Julie at January 8, 2013 1:48 AM
Cell phones have been a real blessing for victims of burglaries.
You can retreat, phone the police, and still prepare to shoot.
One of the things that used to happen in planned burglaries, is that the perpetrators would cut the phone lines on the way in. That does not work anymore, even on many semi isolated rural properties.
Isab at January 8, 2013 2:06 PM
Amy links to a great blog on gun use, with advice particular to women (why not to carry in a purse, etc) - CorneredCat.com. I recommend it to women who are considering gun ownership.
I think CorneredCat and Gavin DeBecker's book The Gift Of Fear are great resources for helping women realize when being "nice," is not actually being nice.
For a woman who's ready to take on being willing to kill in order to live, and considers training to use a firearm in self defense -
Laser sights are fun, and especially helpful to women who are just getting comfortable at the range. The "shoot and see" targets also provide great feedback.
Michelle at January 9, 2013 8:55 PM
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