Rape may well be all about power, control, rage, frustration, etc, and still be limited to young nubiles most of the time. The grannies and the kiddies will not even be noticed, much less arouse anything to spark frustration and feelings of lack of power etc etc most of the time.
Those men who do notice the grannies and kids in this light have other problems.
---
I agree, your interlocutor is a putz.

Seems to me that "power, control, rage, frustration" do, in fact, play a role. However, it may be about sexual power over, sexual control of, sexual rage at or sexual frustration with attractive women in general, or a particular attractive woman in particular.

The government collects number of rape victims by race, and number of rape criminals by race, but goes through some impressive contortions to avoid pairing these numbers up. However, a little calculation shows that there is a lot of black-raping-white, and very little white-raping-black.

Interestingly, this is relatively new. In the 1950s and before, interracial rape was rare. Startin apparently in the 1960s, it became more prevalent. It seems unlikely that black men are suddenly more attracted to white women. This is surely a statement of power. Raping another man's attractive, fertile woman is, psychologically, a particularly powerful statement, precisely because of the sexual component. Look at the history of warfare, and rapine has always been a part of the victor's behavior.

It's amazing that anyone could believe that. Young people (women AND men) are, naturally, more physically attractive then older people. There bodies are firmer, skin is smoother, hair is shinier, they tend to be in better physical shape, etc. etc. etc.

And any study, or general existence as a man, shows that man's initial attraction to a sexual partner is primarily physical. Also, show me any sexually attractive older woman and I'll show you one who looks much younger than her age.

Also on the Good Men Project: New Report Indicates Condom Sex is Just as Good as Without. (A study funded by Trojan condoms BTW). Look condoms are important, and valuable and when I was single I used them every time. But I never thought it was "just as good." What a fucking joke.

Ugh, Hugo Schwyzer. His influence in "feminist" circles will never cease to amaze me. Sarah Palin, a woman working in a male-dominated field and who appears to be cultivating an egalitarian marriage, isn't a feminist because she doesn't agree with killing unborn babies. But Hugo Schwyzer, who happily writes about trying to kill a woman who was some 20-odd years out of the uterus, is a-okay.

Oh, and someone should check ol Hugo on his own "sexism". Somehow, I think all the college students Professor Schwyzer writes about banging are of the young, firm type.

"However, a little calculation shows that there is a lot of black-raping-white, and very little white-raping-black."

That could be an artifact of the fact that there are more black-on-white than white-on-black felonies in general. (Of course, black-on-black vastly outnumbers both of them.)

Regarding whether rape is about power/anger or about sex or whatever---

The most common sort of rape (just of adult women, not children) is date or acquaintance rape, which usually does not involve "extra" violence against the victim. That is, her injuries will be from being held down, and from the rape itself; she won't usually have been beaten or otherwise assaulted before or after. Since the victim is usually friendly with and/or dating the rapist, there's no reason to think that he is particularly angry at her, more that he either doesn't understand her objection (or didn't understand the new rule that "drunk women, even if they're not passed out, can't consent") or doesn't really care, and it's fair to assume that he's sexually attracted to her. So that would seem to me to say that rape is *mostly* about sex.

Now, stranger rape is much less common and usually much more violent. I'd imagine that that particular sort of rape involves power, anger, or sadism as much or more than it involves sex, and that the anger may be about women, or about the group the woman is a part of (e.g. rapes committed during war, or against women from enemy gangs or tribes). But obviously sex is part of it, because it's usually young sexually attractive women targeted.

so, guess this just proves that the fastest way into a liberal girls pants is to tell her how persecuted and victimized she is, and how much you empathize with her plight...

I see a lot of this guy's type, and femme apologists in govt. [vote for obama 'cuz he'll be safe for your first time] in acedemia, and the now movement itself, telling women how difficult it is for them [poor dears]...
and when they are softened up and ready, going all Billy Clinton on them.

At which point they excuse him for everything.

And somehow the dissonance doesn't cause pain.

"But, if that, for example, is your motivation, you don't stick a penis into the person; you bludgeon them with a tire iron"

About a month ago, an attractive young woman at the peak of her fertility boarded a bus in Delhi. She was gang-raped with tire irons so savagely her intestines were torn out, then tossed out of the bus and left to die. This sort of violence is not that rare around the world - look up the staggering number of women in the Congo who have fistulas as a result of being savaged with pointed sticks or shot in the vagina after being raped:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2006/11/12/more-vicious-than-rape.html

These women & girls not only won't be able to bear their rapist's babies, they will never be able to bear any babies. That mob of Egyptians didn't gang-rape Lara Logan because they wanted the blonde infidel to have their babies either. Legions of women offer testimony to the fact that "power, control, rage, frustration, etc" can be much stronger motives for rapists than the biological imperative to spread their seed in fertile women.

Pointing this out does not equate to the ridiculous assertion by Brownmiller & co that rape is not about sex. Haakon was right in his first comment - even rapists who are motivated primarily by power & hatred would target young nubiles because those are exactly the women who, because of their desirability, have the most power over men.

"Men across cultures go for women at peak fertility"

Nigella Lawson is 53. It's safe to say her fertile years are behind her. Snooki is 25 (and just had a baby). If any man reading this thinks Snooki is more fuckable than Nigella, please step forward.

I've always enjoyed Adam Carolla's take on rape and how it's not a sexual crime, but is a violent, violent crime ... where the guy comes at the end.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yi4SRnHcVDw#t=1m10s

Nigella Lawson is 53. It's safe to say her fertile years are behind her. Snooki is 25 (and just had a baby). If any man reading this thinks Snooki is more fuckable than Nigella, please step forward.

------------

Eh, there are always going to be outliers. But, it's also worth examining the age of the rapists. Snooki is less attractive than Nigella, but she's almost certainly more likely to be raped, I would think. A 25-year-old would spend considerably more time with unrelated 18-30 year old men, which are the ones who commit the most rape (because they have the highest sex drive, sand because they are physically stronger than older men). So that still supports the idea that most rapists rape women who are sexually attractive to them---it just also accounts for the fact that they rape women they have access to, primarily women in their peer group.

Rapes that involve other assault like you mentioned (Lara Logan, the India gang-rape) do seem to be, honestly, hate crimes. These are atypical rapes, though---stranger rapes are something like 10% of total rapes. The sexual assault was just one of the ways that they hurt their victims. And, straight men have been known to rape other men (usually with objects) during these sorts of attacks---there was one, I think in Texas, where a teenage boy was beaten up and raped with an umbrella because of some race-related beef. So it seems like in general, when a mob really, really hates a person, they assault her or him any which way they can...it doesn't really say anything about most rape.

I dunno...the inability to distinguish between types of rape (mob vs. single rapist, stranger vs. acquaintance) seems like the way people act as though all gun deaths are like Sandy Hook.

For those of you with an hour to spend, here is an incredible documentary about what sperm have to go through to fertilize and egg. The production budget for this must have been incredible- it's discusses many of the issues of this blogpost, including the monthly chemical and hormonal changes a woman goes through that makes her more attractive to men.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4SFOpHiS-tA

(And for those Nigella fans like me: youtube "Nigella talks dirty".)

Amy, thank you so much for this excellent and science-based takedown of Schwyzer's ridiculous, unscientific, and (IMO) rather creepy article.

Rape may well be all about power, control, rage, frustration,

And bank robbing is all about making people lie on the floor, nothing to do with cash

And masterbation is all about making your wrist stronger for bowling and racquet ball, nothing to do with orgasms

And producing pron is all about raising funds to destroy the moon with a mass of taped together $0.99 laserpointers

Moron

"If any man reading this thinks Snooki is more fuckable than Nigella, please step forward."

That is just downright sick. How dare you put my other goddess in the same thought as Snooki. I'm going to be sick. I still drool over Gina.

Hey Amy, what if a chick is hot and has more years than a teeny bopper - but then I would never consider rape.

Interestingly, this is relatively new. In the 1950s and before, interracial rape was rare. Startin apparently in the 1960s, it became more prevalent.

What as the rate of (x) befroe and after your timeline?
1) black men getting lynched
2) black women getting fatter than white women under the governments new 'heathly' food guidlines and what you could buy with food stamps
3) women claiming the were raped when they hadnt been becuase their dad was racist, or their boyfriend was bad in bed and found out she'd been sleeping around?

While we're on the subject, let's combine this with the gun law stuff.

How many hoops should you have to go through before you can carry a weapon effective against more than one strong man?

Why are some groups willing to throw you on the Rape Bus rather than let you carry a pistol?

"Why are some groups willing to throw you on the Rape Bus rather than let you carry a pistol?"

Well you just KNOW that women aren't capable of shooting a rapist, and might hurt themselves or something... which is why we ABSOLUTELY MUST PUT THEM IN COMBAT OPERATIONS IN THE ARMY!!!!111

oh, wait...

”Somehow, I think all the college students Professor Schwyzer writes about banging are of the young, firm type."

Hahahaaa! Yes, I'm sure he wasn't trying to seduce any of the middle aged staff at the college. He acts according to the evolutionary script and still DENIES it. Your comment has to be the best come back for that turd ever. I'll use it if I have a chance, if you don't mind. Sometimes Hugo says something SO absurd that I comment in spite of myself.

Amy: [Rape may well be all about power, control, rage, frustration, etc,] is a theory put out by Susan Brownmiller without evidence to support it.

The evidence shows that rape is primarily a crime of sex. Thornhill and Palmer lay this out in their book, which is meticulously written and excellent.

I've never bought the "rape is about power" assertion. While having power over a woman can be, and is, the primary motivation in some cases (e.g. rape as a terrorizing tool of war), I agree with you, Amy (and Thornhill/Palmer) that it's primarily about sex. Power is certainly involved, but it's the means by which the man takes what he wants; it's not the objective. Likewise with, for example, armed robbery. The objective is money, and power is used to take that money. While some robbers may get a rush using that power, that doesn't mean that the robbery is "about power" for them.

If any man reading this thinks Snooki is more fuckable than Nigella, please step forward.

Martin, I think Nigella is smokin' hot (and Snooki is not) but I'm sure there are a lot of guys out there who feel differently than we do.

"However, a little calculation shows that there is a lot of black-raping-white, and very little white-raping-black."

...being reported.

"..being reported."

How big a disparity do you want?

For some categories of crime, blacks in the USA are incarcerated at ten times the rate of other ethnicities - even in jurisdictions controlled by black law enforcement and government officials.

Even if the KKK was banging the gavel, the disparity is still there.

So, name what you think is different from the reported numbers.

I think the instances of rape against women (and men) who are "black" are under-reported and drastically different from the reported numbers.

From Wikipedia, "rape statistics":

"According to United States Department of Justice document Criminal Victimization in the United States [...] There were 194,270 white and 17,920 black victims of rape or sexual assault reported in 2006.[14]

{note from Me - when I see a difference of over 170,000 reported rapes or sexual assaults, white compared to black, I have to wonder if there's something affecting the rate or reporting, which would skew any comparisons that would flow from the reports, such as black-on-white and white-on-black rape or sexual assault.}

However, the report does give a note that for the percentages of white-on-black or black-on-white rape, and the estimate of total number of black victims, the statistic is based on 10 or fewer sample cases.[15] Some types of rape are excluded from official reports altogether; the FBI's definition for example excludes all rapes except forcible rapes of females, a significant number of rapes go unreported even when they are included as reportable rapes, and a significant number of rapes reported to the police do not advance to prosecution.[16]"

~And now I need to step away from my personal computer until about 9 pm tomorrow eastern time. 'Sorry to comment and duck out.

If any man reading this thinks Snooki is more fuckable than Nigella, please step forward.

Posted by: Martin at January 28, 2013 10:38 AM
____________________________

Except that's based on the fact that adults under a certain age know who they ARE, not just what they look like. If you didn't know anything about either of them, you might not see much difference between them - after all, most women on TV these days tend to have the same makeup, hairstyles, etc. I. for one, tend to think most men and women on TV tend to look the same - plastic and boring. Even those men and women who are distinctly plain and/or fat aren't memorable, whether they're playing fictional characters or not.

I had no idea who Nigella was the first time I saw her heavenly form and heard her lovely voice. She made an immediate and lasting impression.

Thanks, Amy :) & Phew, I'm glad that I'm not the only one who finds almost all of Schwyzer's writing to be quite creepy. I can't wrap my brain around the fact that feminist websites actually hire him/pay him to write. It's crazy.

Nigella is a buttercup.

http://www.listal.com/viewimage/4365728

I've never bought the "rape is about power" assertion. While having power over a woman can be, and is, the primary motivation in some cases (e.g. rape as a terrorizing tool of war), I agree with you, Amy (and Thornhill/Palmer) that it's primarily about sex. Power is certainly involved, but it's the means by which the man takes what he wants; it's not the objective. Likewise with, for example, armed robbery. The objective is money, and power is used to take that money. While some robbers may get a rush using that power, that doesn't mean that the robbery is "about power" for them.

Posted by: JD at January 28, 2013 5:30 PM
_______________________________

You have a point. However, there's one little problem.

Namely: People steal money for the same desperate reasons they steal food, clothing, and shelter - they need those items to SURVIVE. And, yes, we might as well include money for drugs, since, IIRC, going cold turkey can sometimes be fatal.

However, it's a well-known (if unpopular) fact that no one has ever died from lack of sex with another human being, however angry that deprivation makes some men. (Besides, last I heard, men don't seem to be that scared of facing possible arrest for hiring a prostitute.) Not to mention that often, it's the very popular men who are likely to commit rape, since they're not used to hearing "no" from ANY woman and are more likely to get angry as a result. My point is, it's dangerously misleading to compare sex to money, even if poor people aren't the only ones who steal money.

While saying "rape is about power" may have become a semi-obsolete way to get men to think more about how they think and act, it was hardly a useless educational tactic back when "decent" women weren't even supposed to be living alone unless they were divorcees - never mind walking alone at night when, say, leaving work.

Bottom line is, we still have to be careful not to slip back into the attitude that says "boys/men can't help themselves under such circumstances." As Katha Pollitt said: "We need to stop thinking of male violence as some kind of freak of nature, like a tornado. Because the thing about tornadoes is, you can't do anything about them. The onus is all on potential victims to accommodate themselves or stay out of the way (What was she wearing? Why was she out so late? Why didn't she flee/scream/fight back/stay calm?)."

Besides, as more than one person has pointed out, almost any man can stop himself even during CONSENSUAL sex if his phone rings and he knows it's an important call, so what's the difference when he hears the word "no"? Especially when she screams the word?

Sometimes I secretly fantasize that I'm Rebecca Watson, stuck in an elevator with Hugo Schwyzer.

Imagine all the rape accusations I could talk about on YouTube!

Interestingly, this is relatively new. In the 1950s and before, interracial rape was rare. Startin apparently in the 1960s, it became more prevalent. It seems unlikely that black men are suddenly more attracted to white women. This is surely a statement of power. Raping another man's attractive, fertile woman is, psychologically, a particularly powerful statement, precisely because of the sexual component. Look at the history of warfare, and rapine has always been a part of the victor's behavior.

Or maybe because since the 60s fraternization/relationships between black men and white women is more prevalent, therefore more acquaintance/date rape between the two subsets.

"Why are some groups willing to throw you on the Rape Bus rather than let you carry a pistol?"

Ironically, that is about power. By rendering women helpless and defenseless (i.e. by disarming them), they become beholden to you, as they must turn to you for whatever then passes for protection against rapists (and hand over taxes for those services)