Yawn. This isn't a "big government" sin.

Harboring wildlife is fantastically dangerous. People have been LIED TO in theaters - for instance, Bambi never knew who Dad was, male deer having just one use for females. This makes thinking about the risk tough, especially for people who just don't get outdoors.

Here's a task for you: write a law such that the Councellors could keep a deer (don't forget the trip to the vet), and yet another person would be forbidden from raising deer as meat animals.

How about this

WHO GIVES A FUCK!!!!!

Let them keep their deer, and let them pay for their medical bills when they get lime disease, and unless they are fucking it or beating it who gives a shit what they choose to waste their free time and money on.

FYI deer meat is great, maybe if we farmed it we could get it more than once a year

And regarding the "danger," if they are not letting the deer roam the streets, what's the problem? -- Amy Alkon Author Profile Page at February 1, 2013 4:25 AM

Travel the highways and byways in the Midwest U.S. and you will see the corpses of deer or similar residue left behind. There will be at least one
deer strike within any 50 mile radius on any given day.

Deer are nothing but rabbits with antlers.

I'm going to guess that a fawn is less dangerous than any number of poorly socialized dogs living in that neighborhood.

Epidemiology and containment etc. for cats and dogs are much more elaborate than for other animals.

I see your point, but deer aren't great pets.

And yes, I've almost been killed by them when driving through the hills at night.

If we (as a society) didn't get up in arms about every stupid little thing, stuff like this would never make the news.

Honestly, here's what should have happened when this was discovered. Cops/Authorities come over they sit the couple down and say,"Hey I know you were trying to do a good thing, but what you did was illegal for XYZ reasons. If you do this again, we're going to have to come and make an arrest and it's going to be stupidly expensive for everyone. We're not going to do it this time, but we're going to roll by every few months to make sure this doesn't happen again."

That's how you deal with people who are stupid and who aren't actually criminals.

Totally agree with you, andrew, but the problem is, you make too much sense! People are used to rational thinking and common sense anymore.

AreN'T! AreN'T!!

Dang.

"Why should they be?"

Wow, you don't get out much. Deer are not herding animals. Their defenses are speed and reproductive rate.

Even a doe is nothing but an adrenaline-fueled missile when it's scared, and they are ridiculously strong.

"Bambi" is fiction.

Why the hell do you think no commercial interest processes deer on ranches like cattle?

-----

In fact, here's an example of that "choice" kinda stuff you get so hot about when it comes to buying raw milk: Joe Hunter (we know his name isn't "Cameron", don't we?) takes his chances when he pulls the trigger, out there on the preserve. He gets to see if the deer has TB or any other damned thing, personally.

> Again, if your deer -- or your dog --
> is properly contained, why is it my
> business if you have one?

"Proper containment" is precisely the topic... It doesn't happen for casual strays. This couple had the thing for two years, right?

Shots? Spayed/neutered? Any of the usual treatments for household pets? How big was the yard/living area?

Despite sharing the entirety of a single paragraph, these two sentences do not cohere:

The couple rescued the deer more than two years ago after finding it on their neighbor's porch. The Councellers said the deer had sustained injuries, and they wanted to nurse it back to health.

This seems like a textbook misdemeanor. They will probably not be "punished to its fullest extent": They'll probably pay a few hundred bucks. If the guy starts mouthing off at the judge in court, he might do a night next to the drunk tank.

I hate government too, but I'm not sure this is the worst outcome for any of the relevant life forms.

Ticks, right? Disease-carrying ones in the coat of a deer? Spotty-something-something that gives people symptoms of a severe cold for, like, months? Right? Anyone?

Help me out. I never paid attention because I never get sick and am too busy being good-looking to worry about those who do.

Also, this is the city: Our parasites are political.

Here in Idaho, they are pretty strict about this sort of thing for two reasons.

First, they don't want the animals to get so used to humans they beome bold around them. We had a neighborhood buck (probably about 200-300 pounds, I'm guessing) charge a woman walking her dog. The buck stopped at the last minute, but it could have inflicted some serious damage. Also, it's not considered sportsmanlike to shoot an animal that is comfortable around humans.

Then there is also the possibility of spreading disease from a poorly maintained privately held animal to the general wild population. Animals that have evolved in the wide open don't do well in cramped quarters around their own feces.

Again, if your deer -- or your dog -- is properly contained

It did, ahem, "inexplicably" escape (oops, that gate just flew open in a freak wind gust).

The wife says in the article they were nursing it to return it to the wild anyway. So it wasn't going to be contained forever.

But it's hardly going to turn into a rogue man-killer, and one deer more or less isn't going to change roadkill stats (or incidence of Lyme disease, Crid). Maybe it was silly of them to nurse back to health what is effectively pretty vermin, but that's human nature. Prosecuting them is ridiculous.

Well, yes, Eric, there are good reasons perhaps. But this wasn't a herd, and they weren't planning on keeping it as a pet. Andrew further up had it right - the cops should have explained all that and said don't do it again.

> one deer more or less isn't going to change
> roadkill stats (or incidence of Lyme disease

Can I get exemptions under under the one-more-or-less clause? I mean, who issues those, exactly? Are they applicable to tax matters, investment blunders, etc.? Car wrecks?

> and said don't do it again.

Would 18 months of "it" (misconduct) then qualify as law-breaking, or does it have to be a full two years before authorities (and others) get upset?

This is almost certainly not as big a deal, but it kind of reminds me of the musician thing again... People like to think they have get-out-of-jail-free cards in their pocket, and the rest of them should honor them, rather than thinking of the meaning of laws to begin with.

I mean, who issues those, exactly?

I do. And no, I don't give them out for car wrecks.

You're missing the point. A law written to prevent people from running deer farms is being applied to a couple who nursed an injured young animal back to health. Of course, as you said, they'll probably only get a small fine. Newspapers love to quote the maximum penalty in stories like this, but the chance of it being applied is vanishingly small (I hope). But it would still have been better handled at the unofficial discretion level. Nothing to do with the amount of time, but the nature of the offense.

There's a wider point here - when does "ignorance is no excuse" become unworkable in the face of tens of thousands of laws and regulations? This guy is a cop, for crying out loud, and it seems he didn't know. Hence my wish that some reasonableness had prevailed before it got to this stage.

I'll correct myself a little, having glanced through the article again. It's not clear, but from the timing I suspect if they had let the Indiana Department of Natural Resources do their euthanisation that would have been it. I think they got charged *after* the inexplicable escape. They're being punished for not cooperating.

> I do.

Feel free to forgive anyone you want within the sturdy boundaries of your own beating heart... But I hope my neighbors won't be permitted to impulsively shelter and husband large game.

> A law written to prevent people from running
> deer farms is being applied to a couple who
> nursed an injured young animal back to health.

For two years? The lifespan for a white-tailed is only five or five and a half years... And that quote makes it sound like that hadn't even started the rehabilitation yet:

The Councellers said the deer had sustained injuries, and they wanted to nurse it back to health.

> They're being punished for not cooperating.

"Inexplicably"?




See also.

Ltw for the win. Authoritarians don't like to be challenged. The next thing you know, the kids will be dancing.

I assume, Crid, with your intention to honor the rule of law, that you're completely across this and any impact it might have on your economic interests in Hawaii.

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/FR-2013-01-31/pdf/2013-02002.pdf

Picked at random. If you had a farm or a business there, how the hell would you know about this (or provide comments on a proposed rule, which is what this is soliciting) until the "Acting Principal Deputy Assistant Secretary for Fish and Wildlife and Parks" (no kidding, that's his title) turned up at your doorstep?

"Inexplicably"

Yes, yes, I pointed that out obliquely in my first comment. It's obvious to anyone with half a brain they let it go. And they didn't have it two years. Go back and re-read.

Nice Footloose reference MarkD :)

Crid? Reexamine his snap decision position? Possibly change his mind?

When has he ever done that?

Well, luj, for a change, Crid and I seem to be in agreement here - while you might wana look out for zombies and see what WeatherBug says the temperature of Hell is doing, he's right.

Don't pretend wild animals are Disney characters. Just don't.

Because they aren't.

And the law keeps venison out of beef and pork processing streams because it can't be written for exceptions. Not too long ago, several million pounds of beef were condemned due to contamination. You do NOT want to add the unmonitored wild deer population to industrial food transportation and processing.

And it might be fun to pretend everyone can buy raw this or that from a local guy, but that's just fun bullshit to think about. Factories feed this and several other nations.

This craziness is going on in my backyard, thought I'd clarify a few things.
The couple lives in a very rural area...the deer's pen had a high fence and looks clean, and like at least a quarter acre or so. No close neighbors, surrounded by woods.
Again, very rural area - we are all used to deer on the road. I see a dozen grazing in a cornfield every evening at dusk. People enjoy seeing them.
The Dept of Natural Resources officer who enforced this falsely claimed residency in nearby Ohio to get a cheap fishing license a few years ago, which he certainly knew was unlawful...BUT common sense and discretion were used and no charges were filed. He got a warning. Wish he would have learned about discretion from that experience.
Indiana is a super-conservative state, with a "super-majority" of Republicans in the legislature. Newly elected Gov Pence was a tea party favorite. He is not happy with the attention to this tempest in a teapot.
Personally, I think the couple got attached to the little orphan and might have never released her...which would have gotten very interesting during the fall rut, as she is now sexually mature. They said they were planning release in the fall, and I don't see how they could have avoided it.
But maybe DNR did need to nudge these folks to free Dani, but got punitive when persuasion was called for. What I do not see is a need to jail a cop and a nurse for doing a humane act that did not hurt anyone. Save jail time for real criminals, of which there is no shortage.
Gov Pence talked with DNR and supposedly DNR is asking that the charges be dropped. Prosecuting this infraction will cost more than it is worth.

> with your intention to honor the rule of law

> Authoritarians don't like to be challenged.

Pilgrims. Please.

• It's a fucking misdemeanor.

• This piece, a third-grader's effort at scaremongering, mentions only the top range of penalties, with no discussion of typical outcomes for such minor infractions. From the material on this blog post, there's no reason to doubt the couple will get off with LESS than a finger-wag from the judge or other authority... He might send them a nasty note on a tiny yellow stickup sheet, certified by a frowny cartoon face down in the corner, drawn with a purple felt-tip. Or he might just decline to send them a Kwanzaa card this year.

• The phrase "the possibility of jail time and fines" – the possibility! — has caused you to soil yourselves in terror of the Hoosier kristallnacht.

"Authoritarians"? Seriously? That's silly. That you could so readily be stimulated to that kind of rhetoric tells us nothing of libertarianism, but says much about mobs; Truly, the peasants are revolting. The couple has essentially conceded that they took a third of the life of this doe because they wanted a housepet— And for this transgression, they're facing perhaps the mildest sanction a standing government could deign to levy... Or less.

Freak & phantom terrors render the souls of those who look to Bacon's shitty movies for moral instruction… And they're getting shittier.

Rad I never said mixing wild deer in with beef was a good idea.

But I fail to see why if someone were to raise deer for food it would that big of a deal, I live in a rural area where I've raise chicken, pork, beef, turkey, duck, and lamb.

Four miles down the road some idiot has a couple hunndered head of alpaca, his neighbor raises animals for the circus and has camels, emus, and far more exotic shit, my last next door neighbor raised and sold oscelots. What is the huge fucking deal with one goddamn deer?

Thanks for the local info bmused. Hopefully sanity will prevail.

No luj, I don't expect Crid to change his mind. And I can't see the problem with raising deer for food either. Kangaroo is always available in my local supermarket, packaged in the usual sealed plastic trays. There's not much farming of them because it's easier and cheaper to hunt them, so it's almost all wild meat, but definitely factory processed. They separate off the choice bits for human consumption and the rest goes for pet food.

Strangely it's never been that popular here. It's quite like venison, very lean, dark meat with a strong flavour and smell. I like it, but many don't. A lot gets exported, if you can find some it's worth a try.

Evidently you guys missed the part about deer being wild animals.

When that sinks in, get back to me.

Yes, wild animals, Radwaste. I am quaking in my boots. Don't want them there wild deer mixing with the domesticated types of animals. You do realize that these wild deer roam and happen to be in close proximity with cattle, horses, and people all of the time. In my area, most cattle are pastured and don't come into some special segregation center to prevent miing with the wild animals every evening. So no, I don't get your fear of these wild animals.

Yes, they can be dangerous. Get into a pen with 1000 steer and you may find those domesticated types can be dangerous too

D'oh! A deer!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPrI8db74kA

"Don't want them there wild deer mixing with the domesticated types of animals. You do realize that these wild deer roam and happen to be in close proximity with cattle, horses, and people all of the time."

That's it - make something else up and argue that.
Way to puff up and miss the point. Process them as food, kill people, because their population can't be inoculated. Again, deer are not herd animals.

I'm in the middle of deer country. There are tracks in my yard. The Federal site where I work has the most heavily-studied deer population in the USA.

You're not winning any contest here claiming deer are the same as cattle, either implicitly or by implication.

Because they're not. Like I said - when you get the idea that deer are wild animals, get back to me. If you don't, well, keep it to yourself.

Then why is the term for a group of deer 'herd'.

Also explain how people are the allowed to raise the following for food - human or animal. Mice, rats, gunie pigs(tasty), rabbits(local french place make kick ass appitizers), goats, geese, ducks, chicken, quail, turkey(dumber than a bag of hammers), swan, sheep, llamas, alpacs, pigs, cows, ect.

None of which require innoculations of any sort, only a visual inpection by county officals before transport to a slaughterhouse, assuming you dont plan to cut it up yourself on your own property.

We are all in the middle of deer country as they are found pretty much everywhere including in many heavily urban areas. I admit I am not aware of any federal studies going on in my area but what we do have is quite a few commercial deer ranches. So whether they are a herd animal or not and that is entirely dependent on the particular species (see axis deer introduced species Texas), they can be raised like cattle, domesticated or not.

Process them as food, kill people, because their population can't be inoculated.

Care to go back and reread what I said about kangaroo meat Rad? Almost exclusively sourced from commercial hunters conducting culls of the wild population. Not a lot of inoculation going on there. I believe they inspect the carcasses for signs of disease to weed out that sort of problem. Seems to work.

Out of interest and of no relevance whatsoever, the collective noun for kangaroos is "mob". Which is about right. They tend to congregate in groups, but they don't really form herds as such.

herd (hûrd)
n.
1.
a. A group of cattle or other domestic animals of a single kind kept together for a specific purpose.
b. A number of wild animals of one species that remain together as a group: a herd of elephants

Wild deer are Herd Animals. The females live in groups, for predation protection. The males come around as needed, during the fall rut and fight over the females, and run the lesser males away.
Pretty much like wild horses or buffalo herds. The word herd can and does apply to *wild* animals as well as domestic ones. And reindeer, yaks, water buffalo and others are domesticated in other parts of the world. I once saw a moose broke to plow. Lot of crossover with "wild" and "domestic", with some species being both.

Agreed in some ways, bmused. Cats, for instance, divide into "wild/feral" and "domestic". Ever tried to pick up a feral cat? And sometimes the line is not that clear. I've had one cat that could be described as pretty feral around anyone but me (she had been badly abused).

I'm not sure that I agree with your interpretation of the second definition of a herd though. Cats congregate and socialise too, but they are not by any stretch of the imagination herding animals. That definition seems to distinguish between farming (keeping animals together) and natural behaviour (they stay together in the wild). So perhaps deer can be herd animals in captivity, but are not in the wild. Yes, elephants, horses, and buffalo exhibit herding behaviour in the wild. It appears deer don't.