Yeah, but Drexler is blaming this on men.

It's not that women may just be bitches all on their own she writes that the behavior is rational because of how it's reasonable for women oppressed in the workplace to think that they are playing a zero sum game with each other.

And as you quote, she is basically demanding some sort of vaguely defined equity quotas in "top leadership positions"

She appears to be predicting that when every woman gets to be leader, they won't act like such cunts to each other.

She writes a whole article describing what sadistic misogynistic sociopaths women leaders are as measured by surveys of male and female employees, and then she writes, "Men use fear as a tool of advancement" without citation.

Sheesh.

There are male bosses that do use "fear as a tool of advancement"...but the efficacy of that tool is limited.

A boss that is feared, but not respected or trusted, will be lied to because the ugly truth is a metaphorical death sentence.

A boss that is feared, but respected for his ability and has predictable and reliable standardsf or reward and punishment, will be able to go much farther.

And regardless of whether a boss uses "fear" or not, your typical male boss does not make a point of actively repressing talent in his organization, he knows that he needs that talent to drive his own success and ambition.

And your average male boss, cares less about whether an employee is male or female and more about whether or not they're going to be a pain in the ass, and/or whether or not they're going to be around and effective.

Nobody wants to hire a walking sexual harassment suit, nobody wants to hire a manager and then find out that they're gone on maternity leave for months.

These are things bosses have to think about.

Now I used to rent property to a manager at a chain restaurant, and she used to tell me about the problems she's had with her bosses, and all the problems she had came from female managers, who took the approach of "Keep the other women down". And having worked for both women and men over the years (though I don't presume that my experience has scientific validity), my worst experiences have consistently been with female bosses. Either they've got "something to prove", and have a nasty attitude, or they're taking time of for "family purposes" and expecting me to cover for them, the list goes on and on. I had ONE good female boss, the rest, ugh.

Dried up cunts are the worst.

I'm going to toss out a heretical thought. Why should female managers be expected to mentor other women, simply because they're female? Let's say we have a female manager in the company's finance department. She is in a much better position to mentor a company accountant, who happens to be male, then she would be to mentor an employee from engineering, who happens to be female.

I'm a guy, and I've mentored two female employees who were working in my specialty. I was in a far better position to do so then a female manager from another department would have been. A company is a company; the org chart is the same for both male and female employees. Yes, I know, the female experience is different, bla bla bla. Sometimes you just have to get over it.

Ppen, we may have discussed this earlier, but do you have any maiden aunts on the West Coast who'd enjoy a weekend brunch at the beach sometime? (I'm thinking Shutters... Great omelets.) Psychos / emo manipulators not-a-problem.

This is very real. Some women love the special status of being "the only girl."

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0749597811000720

I'm dealing with a problem at work right now in which a woman colleague (lower than me in the corporate hierarchy but not in my department) sends e-mail concerning my product line to my male boss and various other male executives, passive-aggressively excluding me from the communication. I own the product and oversee all of its development. My boss corrects her but inevitably she does it again. I believe she's trying to cultivate a "boys club" where she is the only female member.

It's a good trick, because I don't know how to address the situation without seeming petty, which I dread.

I agree with Jerry, article is rather 'lets blame the men for what women are doing'. Personally, my experience is even in non career situations, such as clubs or social groups, where women have parity Queen bee-ism is rampant.

>> Until top leadership positions are as routinely available to women as they are to men,

And the big lie - newsflash, top leadership positions are not "routinely available" to anyone, just because 1 percent of the male population fills most of the roles. Fighting your way up to be top dog is not "routine."

It's a good trick, because I don't know how to address the situation without seeming petty, which I dread.

I wouldn't do a thing. People like this inevitably dig their own graves. Just stand your ground, correct any misconceptions politely but firmly, and go about your business. The more you let her know she's getting to you, the more shit she'll try to pull. Her passive-aggressiveness is less attractive than she thinks, and it will backfire on her. Time heals all wounds, but it also wounds all heels. She sounds like a total asshat. Let her hang herself.

My boss is a woman. Her employees are about 70% women and 30% men.

She gives everyone more latitude than most of the male bosses I have ever worked for, but she doesn't really take the BS of the women who try to back stab their co-workers.

I have worked for both male and female managers, good and bad ones of both genders. Personally I don't have any preference for working for a man or a woman. When I have discussed this issue with female colleagues, they have unanimously said that they prefer working for a man over working for a woman.

At this point in my career, I'm happy just working with a competent manager.

Flynne, that's good advice. Thanks!

I think it is called the "Crabs in a Bucket" syndrome. Women tend to drag each other down in the workplace rather than trying to get ahead on their own merit. So as one crab is about to climb out of the bucket, another crab will try to climb over it & knocks it back into the bucket.

It's like when people say bad things about other people to try to make themselves look better in comparison.

I've worked for decent male and female managers, and shitty ones as well. Can't say this surprises me. It doesn't even have to be a high-powered position. Women at small companies that are traditionally male dominated do this as well, whether they are the rare project manager, or just run the office (big fish, little pond, I guess).

Re blaming men for this phenomenon: I think it's interesting that special interest groups champion the oppressed and cry out for equality, but they themselves continue to perpetuate perceived or real inequalities by (in this case) not acknowledging that a woman can be an asshole independent of the influences of a man. I guess if they don't have a "victim" to champion for and play puppet master to, they'd be out of a job.

Well I'm suffering through this now, and may even lose my job over it. Long story...but I think one problem is that both the Queen Bee and I have painted ourselves into occupational corners, where there just isn't a lot of room to move laterally.

Someone who's willing to travel or work in sales or ops may be happy to mentor someone to take their place.

If you're locked into the role of Indispensable Woman who Handles Payroll or HR, don't want to travel or sell or do PR then there's not much room to grow. Hence all possible competition in the same corner must be stifled.

And women do tend to gravitate to these pink ghettos. Our own fault really.

Everytime I worked for a male boss I was given access, experience and mentorship beyond my job description. The opportunities given to me by the men were big, big pluses for my resume.

Women caught tooth and nail to keep me under their thumbs and even went so far (last place I worked) to take my place to an industry conference that had nothing to do with her job (one I had been going to since 2003) and excluded me from every meeting that had to do with my job unless I was there to "take notes".

The last project I completed for that company involved recreating a complete list of insurable entities that had never been done at this company since its incorporation in 1945. When the treasurer took me to meet the CEO (instead of her) and suggested I present this to the board of directors for the company she flipped out "Ive been here 25 years and only been presenting to the board for the last few years.).
Needless to say, she took the binder and presented to the board on my behalf and offered for me to sit and take notes if I wanted. I declined.

Treasurer, male. CEO, male. Boss, female.

And what PPen said!!!

I worked with an old biddy catchers mitt so I know your pain Feebie.

Not only did this fucking yenta look like dried up leather goods but her personality matched her perpetual stank face.

Thank the Lord Jesus Christ my Lord and Savior that this fucking bitch was my equal in terms of the corporate ladder.

I mean everyone hated her, even the people that dont speak English.

Luckily I have always made clear to my supervisors that I am never going to compete to be a personnel manager.

But at the same time I'm a tech type that is not tied to any industry but IT.

I have made mention of moving on to my current boss in the past, and she said "If you get another job, can you see if they have a position for me."

She realizes her position and mine. Having that kind of leverage is always nice.

@PPen. You crack me the fuck up!!!

PPen...you are hilarious!

Read this book "Snakes In Suits-- When Psychopaths Go to Work" by Steven Babiak.
Psychopaths are just as likely to be female as male.

Listen, as bad as all these stories are, I think this perspective is tragically mistaken.

I enjoyed Ppen's first comment because it had the satisfying, percussive dynamic of a well-snapped brassiere. Also, I'm pretty sure that Purp herself is a mighty hot little number, despite her punishing disadvantages of youth, fertility and vigor.

But Brothers and Sisters, please know this and believe it with all your heart: There's no pattern of feminine mischief in the workplace that hasn't been practiced by men on men for tens of thousands of years. No feigned or hidden alliance, no claim of credit for another's work… Zilch. And that certainly includes the senior manager whose sexual frustrations waft through the walls like the bitter scent of cheap toiletries.

Now, nothing means more to me than the difference between men and women. It's bigger, characterologically, than race, age, religion, height, heritage, or wealth. The sex difference is bigger than anything.

But that doesn't mean I can always tell you precisely what it is... Or that I can't find a raft of exceptions to any firm distinction you might offer.

Putting women in the workplace has done more for American strength in the past fifty years than anything else, by far. Perhaps more than all our other young blessings put together. But workplaces are human places... The genius and struggle that built civilization heretofore wasn't purely masculine, it was human.

It's too early to tell if there's something distinctive, whether good or bad, that comes from full participation of women in the economy, or some particular set of tricks women use to move forward.

But when I hear young women talking about the disappointments of the workplace as a failure of sisterhood, my heart breaks... These are girls who've swallowed a completely bogus set beliefs about what working life is like.

It's work. In a genuinely capitalist economy it's often —if not exclusively— competitive in a rabidly personal and individual way, with harsh measures of character expressed in zero-sum outcomes.

When women complain about this like this, it heartens idiot men who think women belong at home making babies.

Set OF beliefs.

Also, what Cousin Dave said.

Because....

…But what happens far too often is that "mentoring" gets someone screwed, maybe literally. Read the brilliant Moynihan piece on precisely this topic:

On another occasion, she described Petraeus as an “academic mentor of mine, if you will.”

Well no, I won’t.

It's a version of the "sisterhood" foolishness perfected long before women started punching the clock.

Who could be so naive as to think that mentoring would provide a pleasant transfer of strength and talent from an older performer to a younger at no cost?

No.

This comment and the last one are posted backward, but----

What is the "mentoring" shit, anyway?

No one would ever have called it mentoring, because their skill sets were so tightly matched. But there used to be these two stand up comedians, Jay and Dave. They both wanted Johnny's job. Before it was available, Jay used to appear on Dave's show, and Jay was incredibly funny. Johnny retired, Jay got the good job, and a magazine asked Dave about it. The passage is worth a long cite:

ROLLING STONE: Have you spoken to Jay amid all this stuff?

LETTERMAN: I speak to Jay now with the same regularity that I have always spoken to Jay. Which is not much. There's no ill will personally. If I felt I was deprived of something that was rightfully mine, if I had fantasies about being hoodwinked or misled -- then there might be ill will. I'm not the kind of person that wants to see somebody else fail on television. Whatever the future holds, I'm in pretty good shape. So, no, I'm not upset with NBC. I'm not upset with Jay. I guess a case could be made that maybe Bush is upset with Clinton, because George didn't get the job and Bill did. So what? Who among us hasn't endured disappointment in our life? But for me to be upset with Jay, you would have to suppose that he did something hurtful and awful to me by being hired as the host of The Tonight Show. And I would guess that you could look long and hard and not find evidence of that.

ROLLING STONE: Your relationship with him has great ironic overtones in that you've credited him with being among your primary comic inspirations.

LETTERMAN: Oh, without question. As he's probably been for a whole batch of other guys who came after me. He was the best -- and still is -- as far as stand-up comedians go.

ROLLING STONE: On the flip side, he's said repeatedly that he wouldn't be where he is if you hadn't given him a showcase on Late Night.

LETTERMAN: Well, he's being gracious, because he did as much for us as we did for him -- maybe more. He could have accomplished for himself what he did here on any other show. But for us, like I said earlier, to find a regular guest who could always come out and who really could deliver, jeez, that was money in the bank.

Dave is not a humble guy... He means it, and I was impressed that he had the clarity to say it in a moment when he might have been weeping instead.

Again, this was not mentoring, but I think that's how mentoring works. Having a Bright Young Thing around the workplace who can loyally impress the shit out of anyone who happens by is good for a manager's standing. And this isn't just a bureaucratic principle: It's one of the fundamental concepts in shops of all kinds. (The most poignant protégé in my lifetime might well be described here.)

" There's no pattern of feminine mischief in the workplace that hasn't been practiced by men on men for tens of thousands of years."

Agreed. But that's why we have practices like affirmative action to keep women like my boss, incompetent, petty, politically convenient bullies as showcases at the top instead of those women who truly deserve to be there.

I don't blame women as much as I blame the the bad "fairness" policy that places them there. Without affirmative action, they would be forced to work like the rest of us - and would be more inclined to practicing that Golden Rule.

Until then, I pull no punches. The women at the top who are competent are marred with peoPles unwillingness to point out what is the real result of government policies.

My old boss had been demoted several times in title and just shuffled around until they could place her somewhere where she was able to dominate others and not bleed the company out of too much money. I guarantee - based on performance alone (or if she had been a man) she would have been given her walking papers long ago.

It's for people like her we have policies like FMLA.

Yup, ours couldn't be fired or disciplined either because her husband also happened to work there. She'd also cry literally all the time. What a dumb bitch.

How the fuck she got the non-English speaking workers to hate her I'll never now. She once wrote an email to their manager that they laughed too loud and that they spoke too much on their cellphones DURING THEIR LUNCH BREAK....what the fuck.

I used to fuck with her desk (moving shit around, leaving boxes, using her pens etc.) so her OCD would blow up the next morning asking who did it. We all denied it, but it was ME.

Yeah I'm a petty bitch like that.

"I guess if they don't have a 'victim' to champion for and play puppet master to, they'd be out of a job. "

I observed a while back that all of the 20th-century civil rights movements went bad eventually: Black civil rights morphed into reparation demands and excuse-making for crime. Equality feminism turned into gender feminism. Hispanic civil rights turned into La Raza.

I think I see now where this actually happened: it's when the leaders of these movements, in order to buy loyalty and create a good sob story for the public, decided to turn their movements into absolution movements. They spread the myth that the people they supposedly represented totally lack agency; they are completely and utterly compelled to do whatever they do, by "society". According to this story, a person of minority group X has absolutely no say-so over the conduct of their life whatsoever. Everything, from when they get up in the morning to when they eat breakfast to what they watch on TV, is determined for them by a white guy somewhere.

For the adherents to the movement, this was a great philosophical deal, because it completely and utterly absolved them of their misbehaviors, both in the past and in the future. Who'd like to live a life completely free of moral concerns, able to do whatever the heck you want to do without worrying what it does to other people? Everyone has a secret desire for this, if they're being honest. It's something we have to suppess in order to have a civilized society, yet it's still there. For these people, the old moral equation is inverted: "Your right to have a nose ends where my fist begins." Turning loose the monsters from the id, and promising no consequences for the monster owners, has earned the leaders of these movements a religion-like devoutness that cannot be shaken by any logical argument. Win-win!

Circling back, I think we can see what is going on here. Do I need to spell it out? An awful lot of women these days have been raised with the belief that, because society is not "ideal" (whatever that means), they are therefore freed of moral concerns. Once I've been given permission to swing my fist wherever I want, I'm going to do it. If the nose I hit belongs to someone who is "on my team", I don't care -- because demanding that I not hit that particular nose is a moral constraint, which I've been freed from.

Dang, Cousin Dave. If you didn't it the nail right on the head...

" they are completely and utterly compelled to do whatever they do, by "society""

You can't trust the system! Man!

" Who'd like to live a life completely free of moral concerns, able to do whatever the heck you want to do without worrying what it does to other people? Everyone has a secret desire for this, if they're being honest. It's something we have to suppess in order to have a civilized society, yet it's still there."

You basically just described most of what the left wing in this country is pushing for. Life without any personal responsibility or consequences... it's all society's burden. Of course, to get there, it also means no real individual freedom either, but hey, they don't really seem to care about that anyway.

I wish I had read (and re-read) this conversation about 20 years ago.

I'm linking to it for the benefit of my friends who are in their teens or twenties.

Thank you.

I know this article basically speaks for the white collar people, but as a blue collar female, I am so guilty of this, too! I work in a factory with very few women. I always assume the new women can't hack it. I catch myself, though, remembering that they all had a money bet going on that I wasn't going to last a week when I first started. While I'm correct about most of the women that start there (it takes a special breed of woman to be a steel worker), I do try to help them as much as I can (just as I do for the new male employees), and I NEVER take part in the betting that goes on. I'm happy to say that now there are quite a few women that do a fine job where I work. I will also say that I don't "mentor" these employees. I relate my experience when I started, tell them it's up to them how they respond. As a union steward, I represent them just the same as I represent the men.