Psychics are extremely hard to validate, especially given their "the spirits aren't speaking" approach to questions they can't answer.

But nothing like a failed prediction, especially one that's spoken with such confidence, to expose a fraud.

Much of what mainstream science "validates" is nonsense, so that's not much of an argument.

I have known a number of psychics, and they are the last ones to say they are always right. I have found them right often enough to say there is some truth in what they do. Their accuracy compares favorably with the track records of many economists, investment advisors, politicians, doctors, judges, psychologists, left-wing social theorists, and journalists, all of whom claim their notions are supported by "science". No human system or capability is infallible.

Mo.

> Their accuracy compares favorably with the track
> records of many economists, investment advisors,
> politicians, doctors, judges, psychologists,
> left-wing social theorists, and journalists, all
> of whom claim their notions are supported by
> "science".

That's cock-suckingly ludicrous, and you should be ashamed for typing it.

Especially, though not only, if you knew that other people would read it.

Anyone remember this fuzzy bunny?

Note the 3rd 'graf.

Robert, what you have described is an ordinary ability to speculate, not the possession of "super" powers of any kind. Sylvia Browne's record speaks for itself: fraud.
But as Ben Franklin said, there are no greater liars than the charlatan's fans.

By the way, if you or someone you know thinks they have some special ability, you may apply for ONE MILLION DOLLARS in prize money. All you have to do is do what you say you can do, and YOU SET THE CONDITIONS.
That last bit is in bold because people eager to dismiss the Challenge seem not to be able to read it.
Tell an observer what you can do. Then do that.

It's too tough for Sylvia Browne, who has accepted the Challenge on national television and then - who'd'a thunk it? - broken her word.

This fights not only the fraud where a grieving person is robbed of the truth and/or money, it fight the infringement on your rights by those unscrupulous agents who would use a "psychic" to apply probable cause to prosecute you.

Turns out there's a name for it.

Besides "lying," I mean.

Well, look, I'm not a psychic by any stretch of the imagination, but when I was a sophomore in high school, somebody gave me a deck of tarot cards and told me 'you'd be good at this'. I messed around with it some, did some readings. Turns out I am pretty good at it, as far as interpreting what the cards say when they're laid out. I have several tarot decks now, most were gifts, but there are a couple I bought for myself. Here's the thing: with tarot cards, it's just kind of a guide. Certain cards tell you where you've been, others tell you where you're at, and some others tell you where you're headed. Nothing is written in stone, and if you don't like where you're headed you can take steps to change that. I've done readings for people that have literally scared them, and they've told me so, but they also tell me to 'keep going'. I've been right about some things, and I've been wrong about some things, and I've had people come back to me months after I'd given the reading and tell me I was right about certain things that either came to pass or were about to. But it ain't rocket science, either. I've never done a reading over the phone, I can't comprehend if there's any validity to it. But the ones I've done for people sitting in front of me, they've been pretty accurate. I can't 'splain it. I just do it.

Oh and I don't charge for readings either. But if someone wants to buy me a bottle of wine or something, that's fine. I usually drink it with the person I'm reading for anyway. But if someone wants a reading, I'll do it for them, no jing involved.

Nay.

There are no supernatural forces expressed through human hearts: None. Zeroid, Nullzyville, Emptyset, the Big Void.

If you wanna be sure, take your talent to Wall Street, where the smartest people in the world will see to it that your gift is handsomely rewarded, and for the tiniest of fees.

But that's just it Cridmo - I don't predict anything. I just lay out the cards and see what they're saying. Sometimes they're right, sometimes they have no relevance to what the person is looking for. Either way, I don't get paid for it. That's not why I do it.

So no predictive value, no illuminative impact on external events.

OK...

Well, there could be some illuminative value, not that there would necessarily be any impact...but there might be. One never knows, do one?

"Their accuracy compares favorably with the track records of many economists, investment advisors, politicians, "

Saying someone is more honest than a politician isn't saying anything at a ll.
But it doesremind me of several political/economic shows which for their last show before new years always give their guests predictions, on the new year. I would love for the show to do a follow up on was any of their predictions even close to being right. And who had the best track record. But going that it would be disasterous to actually have economists and politicians have to look at their results, they will never do it.

> One never knows, do one?

Yes, Flynne, one does know, and knows often enough to live a life of achievement.

WHATEVER light shines from your talent, no matter how flickering or dimly-hued, I beg you... Take it to a capitalist. They'll find the way to bring it to those who're troubled by the darkness. You too may benefit. It can work out for everyone: Nobody does better with a genuine gift than an American in commerce.

Of course, frauds in America have problems that don't happen to tricksters elsewhere, as Ms. Browne is (we should hope) learning this week.

I experienced intuition, but not as in "eeny-meeny, jelly-beany, the spirits are ready to speak."

Even if we're not thinking about something, I just wonder if our brains sometimes unconsciously work out possible outcomes to certain situations, then alert us to the most likely outcome. When we have an accurate prediction, for instance, without knowing how we knew something was going to happen, I wonder if it's our subconscious that decided to run through all the reasonably possible outcomes (barring things like meteors falling on us) and then sounded the klaxon when it reached the most likely outcome.

So, when we experience accurate predictions, it was not the spirits or the mystical energies from crystals, it was just our subconscious having nothing to better to do, so it played with scenarios and warned us of the most likely.

So, when we experience accurate predictions, it was not the spirits or the mystical energies from crystals, it was just our subconscious having nothing to better to do, so it played with scenarios and warned us of the most likely.

People take in a lot more information than they consciously process.

How well they unconsciously process this information depends upon the person (biases, intuition, experience, knowledge, etc.).

"Much of what mainstream science "validates" is nonsense"

I, too, dream of the day when science will be replaced by something measurable and repeatable, like psychic predictions, or Tarot card readings, or alchemy.

If only humanity would return to the wisdom of the Dark Ages!

You know, it's ludicrous that we have to take a jet airliner to attend the Vernal Equinox celebration at Stonehenge. We should just travel the astral plane and save the gas.

Flynne, I've done tarot, and I know "i ching" and other methods. The thing is (Crid &co, don't flip out, keep reading) they actually are useful.

However, they are useful as tools to help someone work through an issue themselves. If you know the person it helps, but basically: you throw words and meanings out there and see which ones spark a reaction. Then you follow up on the reaction and get the person talking.

The best workers with these tools are basically therapists: they react to the person and help them work through things themselves. I view this like a placebo - maybe it's not how you want to do medicine, but it does have its benefits.

Unfortunately, most people fool not only their customers but themselves. Like homeopathy, they believe that their placebo has actual power. This leads to all sorts of unfortunate situation. Of course, even worse are the deliberate charlatans who are just out to sheer the sheep.

"Even if we're not thinking about something, I just wonder if our brains sometimes unconsciously work out possible outcomes to certain situations, then alert us to the most likely outcome. "

Oh, I definitely think that is true. Further, I think that sub-conscious level of your brain can be given assignements. I've been able to do that to an extent: I can think about something for a while, work out a concise thought about what I think the problem is and what solution needs to be found, making a mental note of it, and then moving on to something else. Hours or days later, a possible answer will occur to me, usually when I'm doing something completely unrelated.

I don't in any way think of this as "psychic". Athletes and other people who work on body/hand skills have what they call "muscle memory", where they can execute complex body movements without conscious thought, saving the high-level thinking processes for higher-level aspects of the problem taht they are engaged in. This is sort of the same thing; it's the result of mental muscle memory, and it results from experience in doing the routine tasks of a profession or skill. Earnest Gann (seriously, if you want to ponder on the nature of chance and fate, you've got to read Fate Is The Hunter) writes of once in his airline piloting career when he encountered a vibration in an airliner he was piloting. The textbook response to the situation was to throttle back the engines and slow the plane down. But something in his intuitition told him not to do that; the vibration that he had encountered was different, in a way that he couldn't put his finger on, but it was. He kept the engines at normal power and he and the passengers and crew arrived at their destination uneventfully. It turned out that he did exactly the right thing; the plane had a structural problem that had created a very abnormal aerodynamic situation, and had he slowed the plane down like the textbook said to, it would have crashed. His subconscious level of processing, finely tuned to the task by years of flying, had identified that he had encountered a situation not in the textbook, and that the proper action was to not mess with anything.

I think I could do a good job if I were one of those phone psychics. "The spirits are attending me now...I see...I see...I see a very large phone bill in your future!"

Don't be ignorant. Tarot enables a rationalizing animal to see the patterns they wish.
It's a form of pareidolia. Until somebody burns the toast, you can't see Jesus as you have been told he looks. Then, you seek validation in the conclusions you form.

James Randi's one million dollar prize for anyone proving the existence of paranormal activity remains unclaimed. 'Nuff said.

> they actually are useful.

That's wonderful news! It's always great to when humanity acquires new resources for insight and comprehension.

Let's pay them with your money!

Let's see what happens when you follow their counsel!

This is gunnabee fabooliss.

Cousin Dave, that was a very interesting story about the pilot. I often say (usually when I'm trying to get into something I don't have much experience in) that experience is overrated. I'm forced to admit, in accounts like the one you shared, that's it's not overrated.

I've had similar experiences with your personal experiences, about programming your subconscious to come up with a solution. With me, it happens when I'm writing an essay for school or some personal project. When I want to express something, I struggle with the wording.

I let it go, and then a few hours later, when I resume writing, the phrasing that satisfies me the most just comes to me. It usually involves restructuring the preceding paragraphs, and expressing the idea in an entirely different way.

I, too, dream of the day when science will be replaced by something measurable and repeatable, like psychic predictions, or Tarot card readings, or alchemy.

Hey, Gog, you left out "witchcraft." I should turn you into a toad for that. And don't think I can't do it, either.

Conan, you made a very good point about taking in more information than we consciously process. The simplest form I've seen this in is the classic comedy example of a "double-take." When you look at something, it doesn't register, and you start to go on your merry way. Then it dawns on you that you just saw something mind-blowing.

I made another psychic prediction recently. Some of the gun-rights crowd is planning an open-carry march in Washington D.C.

Since "open-carry" is not permitted in Washington D.C., I see a large number of arrests in the near future.

My experience with divination tools is similar to Flynne. I see them more as psycological tools that help you tap into your subconcious, helping bring forth what you know already. I've had good luck with them.

Anyone claiming to be omniscient is deluded or a liar. Even if you ARE talking to spirits, there's no guarantee that the spirits are who they say they are, or that they are telling the truth about everything else.

If a diviner claims to have hard and fast answers to anything, well, buyer beware.

Y'know, people've been talking about the subconscious for years, but nobody's ever done anything cool with one.

Some people are more intuitive than others. They process information in ways they don't entirely understand, so they attribute it to psychic ability.

Other people are just fat, sweaty liars.

I read tarot cards years ago. It's a psychological tool, not a predictive one. Sometimes things are easier to understand in images.

@Crid: read what I wrote, before going off half-cocked.

I'm fully cocked at all times! I got more cock than you'd believe.

I put it in Google translate, and it came out It has value except not really.

People who wanna believe in shortcuts should be discouraged. (Psychotherapy itself is as often perverse as therapeutic.)

e.g.

I mean, this is the perfect example of how far people will reach to believe in supernatural forces. It's the religion argument in microcosm.

The argument starts as 'This is no different than any other kind of cognitive enterprise', but shortly devolves to 'It's just a harmless little wisp of quiet behavior that some small number of people find inexplicably helpful in the most private of contexts.'

Listen, I'm the guy who (generally) pesters Amy for being too impatient with religious impulses and and religious behaviors. They're not going to go away, and certainly will not wither under snarky, personal condescension.

But no harm comes to those who insist on clear distinction between things that are real and things that are not.

On and off, over the course of many years, I've worked with people regarding their supposedly haunted homes and businesses. I've found that most don't want the rational explanation. They WANT to be deluded. Or in the (somewhat nicer?) words of the X-Files, they "want to believe".

but her actions may represent a watershed moment in how Americans view psychics

It may change how some believers in psychics view them, but I don't think it will affect how most believers view them.

How I view them: scam artists who adroitly exploit gullibility.

JD points in the direction of a point worth making, one to consider in the comments of the post just before this one as well.

People who believe in psychics in America aren't a movement. They're not attracting new adherents. To take that stuff seriously, and I mean MUCH more seriously than anyone reading this thread, you've got to be poised by nature and fate... A preference for comforting fantasy, and a social background that allows wallowing in that fantasy.

In America, I don't worry about women being attracted to Islam for the same reason that I don't worry about smart folks being attracted to mysticism. There are tremendous, irresistible benefits from accepting living in the modern world.... Avoiding fantasies about hidden forces is a small price to pay.

I remember back in the 70s and early 80s they would talk about bringing in psychics on high-profile cases.

I don't remember hearing about any being brought in. They now inject themselves, without invitation.