See also James Taranto on this subject.

Leftist feminism is hypocritical to its core -- it wants everything for women except accountability.

Because of her age at 16, I can relieve her of *some* responsibility for her drinking and place that on whoever was throwing the party.

Still 16 year olds are old enough to know that drinking requires responsibility, so I can't relieve her of all blame for her intoxication.

At 18 and a freshman, I had no one to blame but myself when I got so drunk at a college party I vomited on my carpet.

But yeah, there is no way to fully absolve reasonably intelligent functioning members of society for their drinking to the point of being a public nuisance (which falling down drunk and blacked out certainly is.)

Feminists like to say that the responsibility we place on drunk drivers is different from the responsibility we take off of drunk/blacked out rape victims because no one deserves to be raped. And that's somewhat true.

On the other hand, I don't have to take some blacked out dumbass's word that they would never have consented to sex and so must have been drunk, or that drunk sex is necessarily rape.

In this case, the girl was young, and the guys were not just assholes enough to violate her, but assholes enough to tape that, so fuck them.

I don't see what Serena said that was so terrible. Were there more comments other than what you posted, Amy?

Those boys didn't go to the party with the intent to commit rape, but like all immature teenagers, forethought isn't exactly their forte. They saw an opportunity and jumped on it. Add that to the fact that they were stupid enough to video tape it and callous enough talk shit about it, they aren't earning any sympathy from me. I think the punishment is actually quite fitting, all things considered.

However, I am not completely naive to the fact that the victim was wasted and she needs to take accountability for that. When you behave that way, you are putting yourself in an indefensable position. NO one deserves to be attacked, but, you cannot control what someone else might do so the best defense is a good offense. Now, the argument can be made that she was rufied, but the fact that she was drinking alcohol at all at an unsupervised party already proves her lack of judgement. Again, she didn't deserve what happened to her, and those boys need a serious lesson in impulse control, but an argument can be made that if she'd been more alert, the boys might not have had the idea to even attempt it.

I'm actually more disgusted by the ADULTS involved than the stupid teenagers. When the adults are sending messages like that, no wonder these boys thought nothing of taking advantage of a young, drunk girl.

Personal responsibility starts with I could take advantage of this passed out girl, but I'm an honorable man and I won't. In fact, I'll make sure she gets home in one piece, unharmed and unspoiled.

But trouble finds us easily enough, there's no need to go looking for it.

I agreed with Serena a few months ago.

Sabrina is right. The girl didn't deserve to be molested, but she put herself in a bad position. So I don't absolve her of being stupid.

This is something I struggle with on a regular basis. No one "deserves" to get raped or assaulted. A miniskirt and four inch heels does not mean that you're "asking for it."

But taking gender and sex out of it for just a minute, if I dress up in a thousand-dollar suit, get liquored up, and then stagger around north Charleston (SC), I'm GOING to get mugged.

People drive milk to work in pirate cows.

I agree with you, Aggie. But how does one learn how to be an honorable man if the adults around them aren't modeling it?
While they are clearly old enough to know better, who's to blame for the pedestal these boys have clearly been on since before the rape than the adults who put them there?

Don't mistake, I am not in any way condoning their actions but I do think it's an interesting point of discussion.

"I agree with you, Aggie. But how does one learn how to be an honorable man if the adults around them aren't modeling it? "

Point taken. But the flip side of "nobody deserves to be raped" is "nobody deserves to be falsely accused". Under the current legal regime, I would be very reluctant to assist a passed-out-drunk woman, unless she was someone that I know well and trust.

Under the current legal regime, I would be very reluctant to assist a passed-out-drunk woman, unless she was someone that I know well and trust.

And how sad is that?

But taking gender and sex out of it for just a minute,

Exactly. Being personally responsible means being accountable for your actions, and making sure that you are aware of your surroundings and the people you're with, at the very least. Gender doesn't matter.

But how does one learn how to be an honorable man if the adults around them aren't modeling it?

This. THIS RIGHT HERE. If you haven't seen personal responsibility at work in your young life, how would you know what it is? If the very people who are responsible for your upbringing are giving you a pass for every indiscretion, no wonder you'd think you're above everyone else.

As I understood the situation, it was pretty clear that this group of sports stars had a reputation as "the rape squad". Meaning that this was not a one-time bit of stupidity, but rather an activity that they repeatedly engaged in.

In too many small towns, the competitiveness in high school sports it totally out of hand. Star high school athletes can do no wrong, they know it, and they can get away with just about anything. In this case, if it hadn't been for the Internet, they'd have done it again.

The girl was also typical for the small-town mentality: searching for approval and attention from the local sports gods. She might well have had better judgement in other circumstances, but encouraged drink by guys she wants to impress? It's a very ordinary kind of mistake, one made by thousands of teenage girls throughout small-town America.

If this were a one-off offense, it would have been appropriate to scare the hell out of the guys, and then give them minimum sentences (which is what happened). If this is indeed just the latest in a series of abuses (unproven but likely), then their sentences are far, far too mild.

Are the people teaching these kids to drink the same people teaching them to fuck? There's your problem.

Cousin Dave, I don't disagree with that either. It's sorta of fucked up situation all around...

*sort of a

While in most cases I agree with what everyone here has posted, I also agree with Random Guy. This case stands out bc is there is evidence that suggests that at least one boy did intend for this happen. He and the girl were boyfriend/girlfriend and she broke up with him. He sent several texts and had Facebook posts about how he was going to get revenge on her. There is also evidence that this is not the first girl he gave this treatment to. Also, it is unclear whether she was drugged. All evidence points to yes.

I tell my daughter all the time that as a woman you have to be vigilant at all times bc ultimately you are responsible for yourself.

"Star high school athletes can do no wrong, they know it, and they can get away with just about anything"

Evidence presented at the trial made it clear that no matter what these guys did, all they had to do was call up their football coach and he'd "make it go away":

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2295419/Reno-Saccoccia-charges-Steubenville-football-coach-face-charges-failing-report-rape-told-star-players-hed-make-away.html

This casual confidence suggests lots of practice in getting away with it.

She was pretty well know in the community for going to parties and getting blackout drunk. She was also well known for getting gangbanged by multiple schools football teams. I'm not totally suprised by the guys thinking she would be ok with it.

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2013/06/20/barbara-kay-serena-williams-was-right-the-first-time/

"It's sorta of fucked up situation all around..."

That's the most concise and accurate description of the situation that I've seen yet.

In too many small towns, the competitiveness in high school sports it totally out of hand. Star high school athletes can do no wrong, they know it, and they can get away with just about anything. In this case, if it hadn't been for the Internet, they'd have done it again.

Posted by: a_random_guy at June 20, 2013 6:48 AM
__________________________________

To repeat something from a related thread:

What I wonder is: Why didn't the judge say ANYTHING, IIRC, about the need for BOYS to stay out of situations (parties) they suspect they can't handle? If only for the sake of the football team?

(I suspect that both the adults and the boys were thinking during the trial: "Athletes grope girls - in the worst sense - against their will all the time when they're CONSCIOUS and the boys don't go to jail for that - so what's the difference?")

Can we accept, once and for all, that male teen athletes, however loved/idolized, do NOT deserve the trust and general freedoms given to boys who are not athletes? That is, they must be supervised and chaperoned until they can prove that they will not exploit their celebrity power to do evil, just as you wouldn't allow kids complete ownership of a huge inheritance until they were older, because they cannot be trusted to use that power wisely. After all, many a rapist gets angry at hearing "no" because he's never heard "no" in his life - not because of a lack of sex!

And from elsewhere:

As Prime Minister of Israel, Golda Meir was asked to place a curfew on women to end a series of rapes. She refused, saying: "But it is the men who are attacking the women. If there is to be a curfew, let the men stay at home."

And:

One problem is, many a boy has trouble grasping that there IS such a thing as unwanted sex, since he can't imagine ever NOT wanting it for himself. One way to teach him empathy is to ask him: "If a MAN had sex with YOU when you were drunk and unconscious and said later 'that wasn't rape,' would you agree?"

Chances are, the light will click on.

Another problem is that, in part because of hyped-up fictional TV dramas, we only think of it as "forcing yourself on someone" if the woman is screaming AND fighting. Of course, she has to be awake to do that! So, the public has become jaded. Trouble is, even if she's sober, there are still serious reasons why she might not fight - and then the public loses sympathy when it shouldn't. For example, a teen girl might go to a boy's room with the intent of having sex and then change her mind once she's inside - but she also might realize, too late, that he's the angry macho type who considers it a crime for a girl to change her mind that late, even though of course it isn't, so besides saying "no, please don't let's" she may well be wise not to try to fight him off - but later, she won't tell the jury that she EVER thought of having sex, because, again, she will fear that the jury will think that her "breach of etiquette" was practically a crime.

The girl put herself in a very risky situation. Her reputation also seems to have made her vulnerable. She showed really poor judgement. But that's all mostly because she, too, was raised wrong, which is not her fault and kind of hard for a kid to fix on her own. And I wouldn't wish what she experienced and must continue to go through on my worst enemy.

SHE "did something stupid". The young men did something barbaric and cruel. You don't deserve to be victimized just because you've acted stupid. You do deserve prison for acting like a hoodlum. Even--or perhaps especially--when authorities constantly excuse you, hoodlums are hoodlums. But yes, in a way all the young people in the story are victims. If the adults in their lives had taught them some decency and personal responsibility, none of this would have happened.

Can we accept, once and for all, that male teen athletes, however loved/idolized, do NOT deserve the trust and general freedoms given to boys who are not athletes? That is, they must be supervised and chaperoned until they can prove that they will not exploit their celebrity power to do evil, just as you wouldn't allow kids complete ownership of a huge inheritance until they were older, because they cannot be trusted to use that power wisely. After all, many a rapist gets angry at hearing "no" because he's never heard "no" in his life - not because of a lack of sex!

…

but later, she won't tell the jury that she EVER thought of having sex, because, again, she will fear that the jury will think that her "breach of etiquette" was practically a crime. -- lenona at June 20, 2013 4:17 PM

I don't think anyone is arguing that the males didn't do wrong. The other half of the equation is what was she was doing there, so drunk she was unconscious?

Would it still be rape it just one of the males had taken her upstairs and fucked her in a room with everybody hearing her yell "Fuck me harder!" while she was blackout drunk?

What if she had driven home blackout drunk -- would she have no responsibility for the DUI if she had been caught?

We're not saying she should have been molested. We're saying putting herself in that situation and then crying afterward she may not have learned anything.

Sigh. Now that I have XX offspring, these stories especially terrify me. I plan to give my kids graphic examples of what can happen if you get passed-out drunk in public situations. Would I like to live in a Luna City-type society in which rape does not occur? Oh yeah. But I don't see the Luna City thing happening, unfortunately. What I can try to influence is how my kids view drinking to dangerous excess (which, even if it doesn't lead to you being raped, can lead to you, oh, DYING). My hope is that, like me, they'll be so busy with activities and school by the time that they get to teenager-hood that they won't have time for lots of stupid stuff.

It's like what I tell people about driving: although there have been a lot of improvements in automobile and highway safety over the years, it's still true that the best way to avoid being hurt in a crash is to not be in one. And that is something you have some control over. If you pay attention, you can usually avoid them; not always, but your odds improve a lot. After all, if you die in a crash, the fact that you weren't at fault makes you no less dead.

Sixteen year olds, especially immature ones, need a lot more family supervision than they usually get.

If you start out with poor judgment, because of poor parenting, it doesn't improve any when you are drunk on your ass.

The girl was a dumbass.

But yeah, the guys deserved what they got.

But yeah, the guys deserved what they got.

No they didnt. They got less jail time than if they had been busted selling an ounce or two or weed. They deserved a jail sentence that wouldnt let them return to their lives within 18 months.

Hell the guy who published their tweets and photos is facing a 10 year prison term for hacking, even though there is no evidence of any hacking on his part personally