If you want to legalize it do it purely from the freedom angle not from the if you legalize it all prostitution related problems will go away angle. They wont and may become worse

"nobody grows up wanting to be a prostitute." That's true. Only young DAMAGED women with no self esteem and serious mental health issues. These are young girls who have been sexually abused at some point in their early years or young girls who've been FORCED into the trade who have nothing and no one except their sleazy pimps. NO ONE wants to give their body to a stranger to do whatever they damn well please. These are young girls just trying to survive in a world where no one cares and who are being taken advantaged of by men who don't give a shit about anything but satisfying their own desires. Only another TWISTED mind would think it's OK to USE another human being in this way. "Prostitutes are not committing an inherently harmful act." No...but the men who use them are. As for your advice Amy, I've lost all respect.

Jane,

Like in any industry you can't lump all "hookers" into one big category.

From my understanding high class hookers tend to be rather well off, and that particular industry tends to be run by other women. The girls servicing Hollywood elite and politicians, are vetted, model quality good looking and rumors are that many girls marry into those circles (my eyes tend to look towards Denise Richards, Amber Rose etc.).

Many "models" are hookers but because their clientele is so elite, their compensation so high, and they are welcomed socially that nobody thinks about that side of prostitutuion. (Chinese actresses are notorious for fucking Chinese politicians for millions of dollars. They do the deed after they are famous because only with fame can they command such a price).

Sounds like you're projecting a bit here, Jane.

Where is your evidence that not even one woman, ever, chooses that lifestyle for reasons that make sense to them?

There are, for example, an awful lot of high end call girls and 'escorts' who seem to be entirely okay with their occupation (and apparently do pretty well with it). There's no evidence that every one of these women were forced into their profession, nor that they have some dark underlying psychological issues.

Additionally, there are quite likely a number of women (and even some men) who do this, not because they're forced or damaged, but because they see it as one of the less awful options in their lives (even if they'd prefer something else). Not saying that's ideal, but it's not forced or 'used.'

That leaves the ones who genuinely are forced into it, or are psychologically vulnerable to an averse influence.

While I agree with Nicole above that legalization won't necessarily make things all flowers and sunshine, it will, generally, allow enforcement resources to be better applied to those who are real victims, instead of persecuting consensual adult behaviour (which is what actually should be happening anyway, but, apparently, it's less hassle for the cops to go after the easy targets instead of the real ones).

Whether you agree with it or not, an adult should be fully free to do with his or her own body whatever they choose to do, as long as they harm no other (and we're talking actual harm here, not some imagined harm as defined by a busybody with the vapors).

Nothing really to add here. I don't dispute that perhaps Jane's statements apply to the stereotypical cheap trull found at the urban streetcorner.

But there are many levels of prostitution, as Ppen points out, including the pricey courtesans, who have serviced royalty for centuries.

(And please, spare me the jokes about "there's some oooooooold courtesans out there!")

So go pirate that wet car next to the telephone pole!

Women (and men) have been trading sex for money, food and material goods since the dawn of time.

The only thing laws against prostitution do is penalize those who are the least clever about it.

Switzerland has legalized prostitution which is regulated, but it still has unregulated black market prostitution and all the problems that go with it. In fact, since Geneva is known as a prostitution center, the problems may even be magnified.

It's not a simple solution.

I didn't work in prostitution, but I did work in the adult website industry for a while. All the girls would swear up and down that they loved it, and we did, the attention and easy money was great. But in retrospect, now that I'm older and have hindsight, pretty much everyone I met was pretty messed up. Including myself. Which is not to say you can't move beyond it, you can. But just because the girls are saying, in the moment, that it's all healthy and good doesn't mean it is.

My mother would gasp at the idea of being a prostitute. She ordered us never to accept any gifts from males, yet....
She was a 19 year old single mother who didn't have an enough to eat that bought a $100 silk dress in 1960 to put her best foot forward.

We were always encouraged to have impeccable manners, to dress "just right", and to maintain our figures (suck in that stomach and always leave food on your plate to a child that weighed under 50 lbs) Our behavior was designed that that we could "eat dinner with the President of the United States and feel comfortable. I almost feel that we were "packaged" for a favorable (moneyed) marriage.

But in retrospect, now that I'm older and have hindsight, pretty much everyone I met was pretty messed up. Including myself. Which is not to say you can't move beyond it, you can. But just because the girls are saying, in the moment, that it's all healthy and good doesn't mean it is.

Posted by: NicoleK at July 10, 2013 4:17 AM

In another twenty years, you will realize that about 80 percent of the populations is "messed up". And there doesn't seem to be any common cause.

Messed up parents have a high percentage of messed up kids. The porn industry is like any other business that does not have regular hours and a fixed paycheck. Messed up people gravitate to jobs that are more flexible.

Reality is seldom optimal. We've noted the phenomena of women marrying men to survive. What about the college girl who dates a "rich" guy who spends a lot of money on her but doesn't actually pay her for sex? What of a legitimate sexual surrogate? The college girl whose student loans are paid by a sugar daddy? These are moral judgements that ought to be made by the people involved. I know where I draw the line, but nobody elected me moral arbiter of the world.

Oh, and other things you can't sell include your organs, child pornography and eagle feathers. We all draw lines.

You can't sell your organs? But I just sold my piano, no problem! And there was a store in San Diego called the Organ Exchange when I lived there in the '80s. Guess they were black-market, even though they did have billboards all over town.

"Prostitution is currently illegal. How many do you think that keeps from engaging in it?"

Gaah! For a witty and engaging writer, you sure lose it at times.
You're talking about those already in the business, not those deterred because they don't want their picture on Mugshots.com!

So many people get the relationship of cause and effect wrong in law. Laws are passed AFTER a problem is noted. The problem is that traditional religious marriage insists that you be dedicated to your spouse, and assorted scum were ignoring that. Unfortunately, this leaves singles without the ready commercial outlet.

Now for a different take: how is a man, already scorned by society for being one, supposed to learn about intimacy, care and love when sex is fifty-bucks-thank-you-come-again?

"Switzerland has legalized prostitution which is regulated, but it still has unregulated black market prostitution and all the problems that go with it. In fact, since Geneva is known as a prostitution center, the problems may even be magnified."

I'd be curious to hear some more about this. There are a few areas in the U.S. where prostitution is legal (e.g, Reno, Nevada), and I have not heard that it has caused any particular problems... if it had, I'm sure it would be front page news. As for Jane, misandry sucks (figuratively). And Jim, I guess we won't talk about the Organ Service Company, will we?

"Messed up people gravitate to jobs that are more flexible."

One word; salesmen

Robot prostitutes will solve all these problems in the near future:
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/technology/sci-tech/researchers-predict-brothels-will-offer-robot-prostitutes-by-2050/story-fn5iztw3-1226331531700

Here's my comment for Jane:

In what other industry can an otherwise unskilled young woman start pulling down money at $100/hour or more?

I know math is hard, but if a woman can get one date per day/5 days per week @ $200/hour, that's $4,000/month. That's 20 hours of work in a month, and she'll gross about as much as I do for 160 hours of work.

And if her client is an Elliot Spitzer, she's making closer to $1,000/hour. Only a high end lawyer can charge that rate.

While criminalization may make things worse, from what I've heard, prostitutes are better than non-prostitutes at preventing diseases. They're all too aware of them, after all.

One thing I worry about - in an age when girls who don't want to get involved in sexting might get labeled as prudes even by other GIRLS, how easy would it be, in a society with legal prostitution, for poverty-stricken women - especially single mothers - to refuse to be guilt-tripped into prostitution? (Even women without children might have poor, disabled siblings and older relatives, after all.)

Remember dowries? Not too different from a money/sex exchange... except that it was a one-time payment to the family instead of a per-service payment to one or more individuals. I believe these did, historically, go in both directions at various times too...

Jane, boys are forced to hustle to survive, too.

Only recently has law enforcement in the U.S. treated teen-aged prostitutes as victims rather than criminals.

Decriminalizing prostitution for adults might shift more demand toward adult professionals, by lowering the costs of patronizing adult prostitutes. Or not.

By all means, please do what you can to create better options for people who are as yet otherwise unemployable. Because there are not enough safe and dignified alternatives for the boys and girls, and young men and women, who are so desperate that they sell themselves rather than starve for lack of food or a sense of connection.

it's amusing that both sides choose to only see the specific group that makes their case... those for legalization pick the high end people, and those against pick the low end...

What's important? The high enders, are few, while the low are many. The odds are that the low ones are enslaved or indentured, with all the extremely bad stuff that goes with it.

But then so are drug dealers, and look how the drug war works out?

The immorality comes from how humans treat each other, not how the theory of secks for hire happens to fall.

So how would people be treated better? Can you legislate that? What does it look like?

clutching your pearls and fainting, make you part of the problem, Jane. You got a plan? If this offends you so much, tell me how you would fix it, else GTFO.

"So how would people be treated better? Can you legislate that? What does it look like?"

And of course, part of the problem is that some people seek out bad treatment. We can argue that this behavior is pathological, but how do you stop it? Law is useless.

Law is not morality. It is not a contradiction or a hypocrisy to argue that something that you disapprove of should be legal. Law is just a minimum set of standars to prevent social disorder. That's all it can ever be. When it tries to be anything else, injustice and loss of liberty is inevitable.

where prostitution is legal (e.g, Reno, Nevada)

I don't think it's legal in Reno. It was legal in outlying counties, where you'd see these classy trailer house complexes on the highway with flashing beer signs. The street hookers in Reno and LV are still illegal, but the high priced consorts are a lot harder to police.

But I thought craigslist had solved all these problems.

"it's amusing that both sides choose to only see the specific group that makes their case... those for legalization pick the high end people, and those against pick the low end..."

Those for the legalization are just pointing out that prostitution is not always black and white. People think all prostitutes are "victims" while I hold that prostitution is a spectrum. I think making it legal protects the lowly hooker more than the high class girl.

Cousin Dave is right, we can't legislate people from seeking bad treatment.

As for what my problem would be is what area do we designate brothels? I don't want them in my area.( I don't accept Walmarts in my area either btw)

lenona: "...from what I've heard, prostitutes are better than non-prostitutes at preventing diseases."

I wouldn't bet on it. I've met hundreds of whores. Through my work that is. In health care. Sexually transmitted diseases are pretty much a given.

I've met hookers who were HIV positive, knew it, and were still hooking anyway.

As for what my problem would be is what area do we designate brothels? I don't want them in my area. (I don't accept Walmarts in my area either btw) -- Ppen at July 10, 2013 4:51 PM

Well when I was in Korea, one of the brothels I used had the baptist church upstairs, the brass knick-knack store on the main floor and the brothel in the basement. But the brothel was not marked as such.

If you license the person and not the business you may never know it's there.

But effectively -- it would be the same as legalizing drugs. A pot grower has to have a tax stamp to grow their own. If they don't have a license they are ticketed and have to show how they are protecting the public from damage.

A prostitute would have to have a business license and get tested regularly for STD's. Caught without it, they are ticketed.

"If you license the person and not the business you may never know it's there.."

We had a problem in my city where they opened a massage parlor and everyone knew what it really was....from the types of guys going in and out. The place was busted by the cops and it was a clean nice place except for the men that frequented. Everyone complained about the types of men. I used to pass it too, and it was a very nice building.

If it was girls that visit the patrons home privately I would not care but brothels do bring out a nasty piece of humanity. I don't care for strip clubs either. It doesn't mean I want to make them illegal but I don't want them in my neck of the woods. In a similar manner a long time ago my citys citizens also turned down Walmart (I didn't want it).

Like I said I don't want to make it illegal so it's a tough balance on where to put them.

Prostitution is one of those nasty things humans do (monkeys prostitute themselves too for food). Like eating too much and becoming obese. Or having tons of kids without money. You can't outlaw behavior.

"I don't think it's legal in Reno. "

Oh, I thought it was. I know it's not in Vegas -- that's one of the things they warn you about. The widespread advertising can give you the impression it's legal, but it's not.

I'd recommend this book (especially to Jane.)

If you want to legalize it do it purely from the freedom angle not from the if you legalize it all prostitution related problems will go away angle. They wont and may become worse.

Nicole, I'm not aware of any pro-legalization person that claims legalization would make "all problems go away." (Getting rid of Prohibition hardly made all alcohol-related problems go away but making it legal, again, wasn't as bad as making it illegal.)

I feel that prostitution should be legal but I also believe that achieving that will be much harder than legalizing pot or allowing same-sex marriage.

I fail to see why prostitution should be illegal.

The problems associated with prostitution are for the most part, socio-economic. Excluding the health concerns of course, however these are the responsibility of the prostitute. Don't want the clap? Stop fucking everyone!!!! I have financial issues myself, you won't find me on a street corner.

How exactly does criminalizing prostitution solve these problems? The only thing it does is drive the workers underground, where they are easy targets.

If we made prostitution legal, can you imagine the tax revenue? G'bye, national debt!!

The sex trade is the oldest trade in the world. Do you really believe that a few paltry laws will stop it?

As for the argument that prostitution wrecks happy homes, maybe fuck your husband properly once in a while, treat him like a king, stop harping on him to take you out after work, and he won't feel the need to visit some anonymous lady bird. This of course does not apply to sex addicts or general assholes.

As for the argument that johns perpetuate the problem, they are only paying for a service. Strip joints, phone sex and nudie magazines are part of the whole. Should we ban them as well?

As for Jane, I feel bad for her. It seems she is speaking from personal experience. She either is, has been, or knows many people in the sex trade, and is projecting her feelings on to Amy. That, or Daddy came to her room at night when mommy was sleeping.

Jane darling, find help. I hope it can resolve your issues. Not all men are mysoginstic assholes, and not all of them will treat women badly. It's just your bad luck that one did. Be happy. Enjoy your life. Stop worrying about men and work on making yourself whole.