So...is it reproductive coersion when a woman lies about birth control usage or retrieves a used condom to get herself knocked up?

Assuming of course, that it is...

Criminalizing either matter is almost impossible for either sex, but the difference between the sexes here is that women consistently have the option to terminate an unplanned or unwanted pregnancy, while the decieved male counterpart does not.

Sadly what the article mentions is pretty common in Hispanic culture. I'm talking about it being common in Latin America, I dunno about the Hispanics here.

The men have horrible views on contraception. Things like getting a vasectomy makes you less of a man, women taking birth control makes you less of a man etc.

Women get beat for getting IUDs. I won't even go into detail what the indigenous women go through.

People think its only the women who trick men, while its true this is only due to the fact that men use physical force vs. 'scheming'

I had a kaleidoscope of amazed and angry reactions to this article, ranging from "Huh? Aren't men supposed to WANT sex without strings (like babies) attached?" to "'IPV'? You mean 'beating up women'? Does Rebecca Levenson really think it's 'powerful' to 'name' something by giving it a lame-ass acronym?"

Mostly, though, I just despair that anyone could ever think - given the diversity of the personalities, characters, motivations, and circumstances of individual human beings - that any government-driven educational program would ever be effective in changing behavior in a significant way. "Harm-reduction strategies" applied at the doctor/patient level are certain to be more useful, but probably not be a lot more useful.

If you are the one who gets pregnant, you should consider it your responsibility to protect yourself against pregnancy.
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I trust you're not saying that a man who doesn't WANT a pregnancy has no obligation to use condoms?

(I realize, of course, that that's not what this article is about, but let's not lose any opportunity to make clear that anyone who's old enough to have any understanding of long-term decisions HAS obligations.)

Interesting perspective. There was a guy that I broke up with when I was a teenager who subsequently forced his way into my home and inseminated me with a scoop of sperm on his finger. I didn't know what to think about what happened. I ended up pregnant despite the slim odds and when I told my story it was not believed. It made no sense to me or to them. This brings a little bit of understanding to the situation.

This can't be right. I read the comments on conservative blogs and only women sabotage birth control.

And, as it happens, I sent the article to attorney Robert Franklin a while back and he had a very different take on it:

https://www.nationalparentsorganization.org/recent-articles?id=21047

I think he's being more than a bit paranoid. Yes, it's true that Kay Stoeffel doesn't make clear what percentage of poor women are merely being ASKED to have a baby - something women do all the time with their less-than-enthusiastic boyfriends and husbands, of course - but I have the impression, at least, that these particular women are in pretty unhealthful relationships already, so chances are the pressure is not benign.

But at the same time, it's a little hard to argue with the following (aside from Franklin's not mentioning that many of the "women" are underage):

".....That brings us to the related behavior the article seeks to pathologize – a man’s telling a woman he’ll leave her if she doesn’t agree to have a child. Again, how many women have done exactly that? Countless, and I say more power to them. If a person is that serious about procreation, then he/she should say so and be prepared to carry out the threat. Is it coercive? You bet it is, but if it’s the truth, it needs to be said. Once it’s said, both the man and the woman know where they stand and can act accordingly. And if the one who doesn’t want a child sticks to his/her guns, the other can go on down the road and seek a partner who’s more compatible with him/her. And the one who doesn’t want a child is freed of the pressure the other’s needs explicitly or implicitly apply. It’s a difficult conversation to have, but it’s one two people who disagree about a subject as important as starting a family need to have. Again, let’s not discourage communication. And let’s particularly not do so in the service of pathologizing behavior by men that by any stretch of the imagination is entirely justified and even beneficial.

"In the alternative I would argue that, if we’re going to call expressing the deeply-felt desire for a child a deviant act, we need to at least make it equally so for each sex. If men can’t express that desire, neither should women be able to. But of course that’s just silly. Men and women will continue to say “Honey, let’s have a child,” as they should. The article and the research behind it should be seen for what they are – yet another effort to cast aspersions on male behavior, particularly male sexuality......"

A man telling a woman he will leave if she doesn't have a child is fine. But then he needs to actually leave if she says no, not sabotage her bc.

(I realize, of course, that that's not what this article is about, but let's not lose any opportunity to make clear that anyone who's old enough to have any understanding of long-term decisions HAS obligations.)

I wrote a long response that echoed this sentiment, but you said it well.

My ex-husband once admitted he wanted a child badly enough that he seriously considered sabotaging my birth control. I'm not entirely sure he didn't do it. I kept my birth control under lock and key, literally, after that.

But that's the sort of thing that works in a relationship that's dysfunctional but not abusive. I never feared he would hit me for hiding the pills.

If men are truly sabotaging their partner's birth control, then all I can say is that there's some really stupid and short-sighted men out there.

Yes, I'll just get this woman pregnant so I can control her. Never mind that I'll be financially strapped to this woman for the next eighteen years, if not longer (during which she'll probably be a lot less attractive to me), at least I'll be in control.

my question is... where is the full coercive force of the government taking an interest in these slimy bastards?

my ex could have had me in handcuffs in the back of a sheriff's car any time she wanted [happened to a friend of mine, and she had hit HIM with a frying pan]

she has the kid, puts my name on the birth certificate, and then the state says: "you'll be paying THIS MUCH per month." Doesn't even matter if it's my kid.

So. Is this a situation where women who won't or can't leave abusive relationships, never think to avail themselves?

The article is vague in many ways, and sorry, I'm not going to look at the underlying studies since I can only find a link to one.

A man asking his partner to have kids is not reproductive coercion. Or stating that among his dealbreakers is not having kids.

Neither is some guy saying, "can we skip the condom", in and of itself reproductive coercion.

And what I truly don't see in these articles is how they survey kept the women from well, lying on the survey, not because women lie, but because all of these sorts of questions are embarrassing.

You visit your ob/gyn though you see her once a year where she explains about condoms and asks if you want a prescription for the pill, and even as all around you at school, and on the bus, you see messages about not being a single mother, or a young mother, well here you are pregnant, and then you are asked to fill out a survey which asks, why did you get pregnant, and look 15% of those answering the survey said, "boyfriend made me get pregnant", WELL, how do the surveys measure truthful answers?

I am not saying there is no such thing as reproductive coercion, just wondering how self-reported surveys measure it.

Similarly, most surveys (even the non sex ones) I've filled out, note that my answers are: 8 inches, over 200 partners, 6'2" tall, and of course, have never driven drunk.

So. Is this a situation where women who won't or can't leave abusive relationships, never think to avail themselves?

The hardest part about trying to get people -- men and women -- to leave abusive relationships is convincing them that they are being abused. And psychological abuse can be worse than physical abuse because it's more insidious and more difficult to prove. (I suspect you're aware of this, though.)

People who can see abuse for what it is and leave don't have problems with abusive relationships.

I think your first mistake is believing any study which has a primary data collection method, of interviewing women and teenage girls, who are pregnant.

It is NEVER going to be their fault no matter what the circumstances were.....

I think your first mistake is believing any study which has a primary data collection method, of interviewing women and teenage girls, who are pregnant.

It is NEVER going to be their fault no matter what the circumstances were.

I thought
I was being overly cynical when this popped into my head. Glad I'm not alone in that thought.

I'm not saying that this can't or doesn't happen to women (or men), but I'll admit, part of me wonders how they are measuring the honesty of the surevey participants as well.

What's with passive voice? Domestic violence affects poor women? Or guys without money beat up women?

I heard this study was very deceptive (rather that the reporting of this study was deceptive), because reports omitted that the sample group was made up primarily of poor minorities.

If true, that may be significant. I do not pretend to know the truth, but I am skeptical.

-Jut

"What's with passive voice? Domestic violence affects poor women? Or guys without money beat up women?"

~Posted by: KateC at July 26, 2013 5:01 PM

Kate, thank you for calling that out.

If men are truly sabotaging their partner's birth control, then all I can say is that there's some really stupid and short-sighted men out there.

Yes, I'll just get this woman pregnant so I can control her. Never mind that I'll be financially strapped to this woman for the next eighteen years, if not longer (during which she'll probably be a lot less attractive to me), at least I'll be in control.

Posted by: Patrick at July 26, 2013 10:13 AM
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My guess is, the younger and poorer a man is, the more short-sighted he's likely to be - and his sense of despair may make him feel that reproducing is the only way he can get any social dignity.

Washington Post reporter Leon Dash wrote the book "When Children Want Children." He quoted poor teen boys as saying:

"With her on the Pill, I couldn't feel like a man."

Dash also said that NEITHER the boys or the girls were that interested in child-raising or even marriage - they just wanted to reproduce and raise their social status.

And I don't know how much state laws differ, but it's possible that some men find it easy enough to evade the law when it comes to child support. (Of course, men under 25 often don't think about it in advance at all.)

BTW, in case anyone was wondering, the subject of Kay Stoeffel's article isn't new - if Hollywood is any indication. See Harvey Keitel's 1978 movie: "Fingers." In one pretty unpleasant scene, he orders a woman to remove her diaphragm.

I dated a guy for about a week when I was 16 who was quite the screw-up. We were hanging out with others one time and he said something along the lines of he couldn't wait to have a baby because that would make him straighten up and be an adult. I ran far and fast from him. He had just gotten himself kicked out of school, because he skipped ISS to hang out with me. SO yeah, I know this crap happens. If it didn't, there wouldn't be so many damn "baby mamas" in the world.