Hey Feminists: "Strike A Blow For Equality. Marry A Poor Man."
A passage on a way men and women aren't equal -- in the choices available to them -- from On Our Minds: How Evolutionary Psychology Is Reshaping the Nature versus Nurture Debate, a book published in 2003 by Eric M. Gander:
The scandal of contemporary feminism is that many feminists have it exactly backward. It is not that women have fewer choices than men in modern American society. Rather, they have more "life choices."In fact, with respect to work and "romance," women have three broad choices in modern American society.They can choose to pursue high status in a career only and thus forsake a potential mate, or they can choose to pursue high status in a potential mate only and thus forsake a career, or they can choose to pursue both high status in a career and high status in a potential mate. (If a woman is successful in this third option and children result, these children can always be put in expensive day-care centers or left with high-paid nannies.)
On the other hand, men in modern American society can choose to pursue high status in a career only and forsake a potential mate, or they can choose to pursue high status in a career and high status in a potential mate. But men cannot choose to pursue high status in a potential mate only and forsake a career, because unless a man is of high status no high-status women will want him.
Unfortunately for men, it appears that their options will remain limited. One reason is that powerful, high-status women (many of them avowed feminists, I suppose) who would be in a position to change the culture by marrying low-status males and thus "leading by example" tend, as we have seen, not to want to do so.
Thus, instead of talking about the "glass ceiling," wealthy, well-educated, high-status young women who are feminists might want to consider the following slogan: STRIKE A BLOW FOR EQUALITY. MARRY A POOR MAN.
Yeah, it's interesting, because my friends who are working say once you reach VP, your spouse tends to stay home with the kids, regardless of gender. But even though when a hypothetical woman makes VP, her spouse will stay home, she still initially picked a guy with high status for their age group. It's just that she shot up, and so he ended up the SAHD. But she wouldn't initially pick a low-status guy thinking, "Hey, he's going to stay at home anyways".
A multi-millionaire older friend of mine did end up with a middle-class guy, but it was hard for her to accept that if she wanted to go on a safari with him, she'd have to pay. And she did mourn the loss of her socialite, multi-millionaire ex and the status that came with that. Still, she's with the new guy and it seems to be working out ok.
I think there's a certain amount of leeway, as long as the guy has a professional job and a certain educational level it can work, but yeah, I've never seen a millionaire lady with a mechanic.
Although come to think of it, I don't know -any- guys that married waitresses from working-class families either. Slackers from wealthy families, yes, or ambitious achievers from poor families, yes. But not someone still poor from a poor family.
NicoleK at November 14, 2013 1:48 AM
Nicole regarding your last statement I think it has to do with people marrying people they come in contact with.
My mom comes from a poor family but all my aunts are exceptionally beautiful. They all married "up" to upper middle class men but the only one married to a multi millionaire was the one that actively hunted for them and went into their circles.
And there are plenty of guys here in CA married to bartenders, waitresses, club girls etc. My friend never worked or went to school, her husband easily makes 200k. But they ran in the same circles.
But I think when it comes to well educated men they want a beautiful woman with an education, Which means instead of a model she is working as a receptionist in a nearby office while finishing school.
Ppen at November 14, 2013 2:13 AM
Oh by the way forgot to say, that aunt was only ambitious in marrying up. She was still poor from a poor family when they married.
Guy was old as hell too.
Ppen at November 14, 2013 2:16 AM
People come into contact with waitresses every day so it's not lack of opportunity. The guys I know generally don't ask them out unless they are waitressing their way through their masters' or something.
I guess there are enough cute women with degrees so that guys don't have to start asking out waitresses.
I gotta say... I've gained, lost, gained, lost a lot of weight over the years, and none of that affected my success with men as much as getting a masters from a good school did. That masters changed me from a nice enough girl to wife potential. I know this runs contrary to the theories, and I know it's just one anecdote but damn did it make a difference.
NicoleK at November 14, 2013 3:23 AM
In academic circles I know men who are SAHDs. However, I am sure that they are at least college grads if not Ph.Ds. I know men who have married the secretary but not women. Personally, I want someone who is at my level of intelligence, if not status. I want to be able to talk to him about my interests.
Astra at November 14, 2013 6:02 AM
In academic circles I know men who are SAHDs. However, I am sure that they are at least college grads if not Ph.Ds. I know men who have married the secretary but not women. Personally, I want someone who is at my level of intelligence, if not status. I want to be able to talk to him about my interests.
Astra at November 14, 2013 6:04 AM
Whoops, sorry about the double post.
Astra at November 14, 2013 6:04 AM
Where I live, it's fairly common for men to marry women of lower socio-economic status. However, outside of the lifetime welfare receipients, there aren't nearly as many such women around as there used to be. If you go into a restaurant or bar around here, you are more likely to be waited on by a male. Young women have better options open to them -- if they don't want to be supported by parents or a husband, they can go to school on grant money, or get preferences for a government job. It's mostly young men who wind up having to take the minimum-wage jobs.
Cousin Dave at November 14, 2013 6:40 AM
I'd toss in status is not just financial status, though that is the most common, there are other types of status. Such as fame, if a guy has a lot of fame he has status even if he has little cash.
Joe j at November 14, 2013 7:26 AM
Nicole what I meant is people tend to gravitate towards someone they share a sense of familiarity with- in whatever way. Especially for marriage.
I know a model who is really beautiful and sometimes men just leave gifts on top of her car as she is shopping.
But the thing is I never see really academically intelligent men into her. They go "meh"
But I think smart men want accomplished smart women. From my male friends who are highly educated etc. I think they prefer a different type of beauty than the general population as long as she meets his intellectual level.
Then again my friend dated a girl who was a model and an ok bio major. Nerds couldn't stop throwing themselves at her and ignored all other girls.
Ppen at November 14, 2013 8:38 AM
I think that the mix of opportunities is also influenced by the local culture. There are still regions, outside of the US, where it's a bit of a liability for a woman to have an advanced degree or professional status because it's assumed that she is not family oriented, and the men have no interest in being SAHDs.
As for the waitresses that Nicole is referring to. I agree that it's unlikely for a educated man to date or marry an uneducated waitress, if it's not apparent that she has other ambitions. But nowadays, with the disintegration of the lower middle class, that's as likely to be due to an insurmountable cultural distance between them. I'm not sure that this was so prominent in the past.
Umberto at November 14, 2013 9:20 AM
Frankly, I don't care how much a guy makes as long as he's smart, interesting, and wants me for me (not as a meal ticket). I've dated a couple of guys who literally made one-tenth what I did (in fact, I'm dating one now). This may make me a freak among women. (I'll also date guys who are shorter than I am.)
But (though I've managed to find a couple) from my observation, many men do not want women who make way more money than they do, or otherwise outdoes them in some other traditionally "masculine" way. Some men can handle the woman making more money, as long as his job is more prestigious than hers. But IMO relatively few male egos can handle a woman whose career is both more prestigious and brings in substantially more money, even if the woman is OK with it.
Another point -- by the time a woman is far enough along in her career to be making a lot of money, she is typically no longer a young babe. The guys who want to date her are likely to be guys who are going to value her intellect and her drive above a perky 20-year-old bosom. And those men, by and large, are going to be high achievers themselves.
It's fine to tell me to date a waiter. The waiter doesn't necessarily want to date me.
Gail at November 14, 2013 11:05 AM
"STRIKE A BLOW FOR EQUALITY. MARRY A POOR MAN."
I'm available - gay, but, I'd switch for the right cougar who'll make me a "kept man."
I can cook; clean; fix things around the house; in shape, outdoorsy type, so I wouldn't look too bad on your arm at the company picnic and holiday party.
any takers?
(crickets)
Charles at November 14, 2013 1:27 PM
What no one ever seems to remember about Cinderella is that her story wasn't exactly a "rags-to-riches" story, since she was BORN into a rich family to begin with! (That seems to be the case in most versions of the story that I've read - and besides, critics have pointed out that it made sense, centuries ago, for young women desperate for inheritances to have fierce rivalries with step-relatives.) She fit in at the ball in part because she was ALREADY learned in upper-class traditions such as ballroom dancing and aristocratic manners.
I.e., rich men might marry middle-class women, but not working-class women, as a rule. I also suspect, as NicoleK hinted, that well-off, college-educated men only settled for women who never went to college back in the days when women weren't SUPPOSED to go to college in the first place - or, at least, were routinely discouraged from doing so, if only to save their cynical, struggling parents' money.
Also, it's quite likely that yes, many men ARE a bit uncomfortable with women who make more than they do. However, well-paid blue-collar men can still refuse to marry women who make noticeably less than they do. (If most men did that, imagine how much harder women might work at taking responsibility for themselves!)
Finally, to repeat something of Katha Pollitt's, from 2006:
"Believe it or not, there are still stereotypically male jobs that pay well and don't require college degrees--plumbing, cabinetry, electrical work, computer repair, refrigeration, trucking, mining, restaurant cuisine. My daughter had two male school friends, good students from academically oriented families, who chose cooking school over college. Moreover, as I'll discuss in my next column, sex discrimination in employment is alive and well: Maybe boys focus less on school because they think they'll come out ahead anyway. What solid, stable jobs with a future are there for women without at least some higher ed? Heather Boushey, an economist with the Center for Economic Policy and Research, noted that women students take out more loans than their male classmates, even though a BA does less to increase their income. The sacrifice would make sense, though, if the BA made the crucial difference between respectable security and a lifetime as a waitress or a file clerk."
lenona at November 14, 2013 2:57 PM
"But IMO relatively few male egos can handle a woman whose career is both more prestigious and brings in substantially more money, even if the woman is OK with it." Gail
I wouldn't pin it all on ego...
Missing in all of this is TIME. What works for many people for a year or two, isn't built for the long run.
My data points are naturally only anecdotes but I know plenty of people on all sides of these fences.
Time may also change this... today's 20something woman, may have less of a problem if the guy doesn't make as much or whatever. It is also possible she actually won't have a choice, as men opt-out.
In the group I know well from 30 to 50 currently if the guy isn't ambitious in some way, an artiste or something, even broke...
It starts to wear on the woman. The regular guy who gave up his living to be the stay at home... kicked to the curb for a much wealthier guy. Not that he wasn't an accomplished person, just that he mistakenly did what she asked, and stayed home with the kid. We found out all sorts of things she resented him for, especially the exmilitary/soldier of fortune/worldtraveller/speaker of 4 languages part.
Funny, that's what I thought drew her to him.
I know Master's and PhD. women who are always throwing themselves at the feet of guys that have to have AT LEAST their level of schooling, plus all the metro- qualities.
Those quys who would be such hot commodities that they have their choice. Those chicas seem shocked when those studly guys don't call back after the walk of shame. Duh.
Meanwhile, Mr. Engineer who didn't even have collared shirts 'till he had to for work, has found himself a jewel in a waitress who is willing to forgive his quirks. If I didn't actually know them, I'd think it was a plotline from bigbangtheory.
What he sees in her is someone who takes care. He goes into an esoteric explanation, and she says sweetly 'should I actually care about this?'
Heh, he gets a pretty funny look on his face when he tries the explanation on me, and I impersonate her, just to needle him. Personally I think it's healthier that he has friends to discuss dark matter with, and a love-of-his-life to discuss scuba diving with. She seems to know what matters between them... I believe the match is good for both, and has been for some years now.
Attraction just isn't that simple, and the differing levels of looks, status, education, and so forth, don't always need to be in the forefront.
On paper my ex is certainly equal in edumacation, and intellect, but I made a grave mistake in thinking that she could be reasoned with logically. Or even to have discussions about what to have for dinner.
Nope. It was her way... or her way.
Ultimately as more women get degrees and such, it will be easier for the guy to be choosy on education. The person that is in the bad position there is going to be the well educated, wealthy woman. She's going to have a lot of competition.
SwissArmyD at November 14, 2013 3:16 PM
I don't know if they could marry a poor man. So many ardent feminists spend so much of their time campaigning for "equal rights" that they don't have time to hold down a job.
A poor man couldn't support them while they attend sit-ins, lectures, symposia, et al.
==============================
On another note, it's amazing how many feminist political heroes (the so-called "strong" women role models all girls should emulate) are, in reality, mere appendages of their husbands' corporate and/or political empires.
Marry well, girls. And then run for office.
Conan the Grammarian at November 14, 2013 5:28 PM
Wow, SwissArmyD, maybe it's just me, but your remarks seem rather contemptuous of women in general, and resentful of successful ones.
"The regular guy who gave up his living to be the stay at home... kicked to the curb for a much wealthier guy. Not that he wasn't an accomplished person, just that he mistakenly did what she asked, and stayed home with the kid. We found out all sorts of things she resented him for, especially the exmilitary/soldier of fortune/worldtraveller/speaker of 4 languages part."
"Those chicas seem shocked when those studly guys don't call back after the walk of shame. Duh."
"He goes into an esoteric explanation, and she says sweetly 'should I actually care about this?' Heh, he gets a pretty funny look on his face when he tries the explanation on me, and I impersonate her, just to needle him. Personally I think it's healthier that he has friends to discuss dark matter with, and a love-of-his-life to discuss scuba diving with."
"On paper my ex is certainly equal in edumacation, and intellect, but I made a grave mistake in thinking that she could be reasoned with logically."
"The person that is in the bad position there is going to be the well educated, wealthy woman. She's going to have a lot of competition."
All that makes it sound you're one of the guys who would have a very hard time dating a woman more successful than he is. And a very hard time admitting that a woman could be both successful and not shallow/a shrew/"illogical".
Gail at November 14, 2013 5:45 PM
SwissArmyD makes a great point.
"I know Master's and PhD. women who are always throwing themselves at the feet of guys that have to have AT LEAST their level of schooling, plus all the metro- qualities. Those quys who would be such hot commodities that they have their choice. Those chicas seem shocked when those studly guys don't call back after the walk of shame. Duh."
Women who are 4's and 5's in the looks department think that their MBA's and PHD's bump them up to 8's and 9's. Nope, you're just a highly educated 4.
Greg at November 14, 2013 6:46 PM
Gail,
You have to understand that most of the guys that comment here on Amy's blog probably make it somewhere in the geek column for whatever reason. We get the jokes on Big Bang Theory without the extended explanation. We can't watch Revolution because of the physics failures. We want rational laws based on true stats not the "40M don't have insurance BS."
We also have gotten burned by some of the hottest women on the planet to the homeliest.
My lady of 13 years was sweet, kind, gentle and smart enough to realize that when I got stuck on an issue to hear me out until I ran it down to the core.
This is sort of the opposite argument of women don't want a solution.
So you are saying that men (specifically can't SwissArmyD) couldn't handle a "strong" women.
Rather I think that he is of the opinion that most strong women consider anyone beneath them and has experienced that fact on a repeated basis.
Jim P. at November 14, 2013 7:35 PM
Anyone reading these comments still wondering why successful women generally end up dating men of at least equal socioeconomic status?
Gail at November 14, 2013 7:38 PM
Jim P. -- I'm not saying anything so sweeping as "men don't like strong women". Indeed, I don't think that's true. I'm saying that many, probably most, aren't really all that comfortable with a partner who exceeds them in a traditionally masculine way -- like earning more money. Many guys find it intimidating, and never ask the woman out, assuming she won't want to date a guy who makes way less than she does. Many not-so-nice guys get snide and defensive about it. I've been lucky enough to find a couple of men for whom it really wasn't a big issue. But sadly, they've been more of an exception than the rule.
As a high-earning woman, you get a lot of guys who seem to feel that the only way to even the income gap is to put you down somehow. E.g., saying the woman isn't feminine enough, or implying that her job isn't worthwhile or she only got it because she's a woman. Or by saying she's "just a highly educated 4.". And unfortunately, if you turn down or break up with a guy of this type, they automatically conclude you're a shallow bitch who just wants to "trade up," when in fact you didn't like him sniping at you all the time.
Gail at November 14, 2013 8:02 PM
I make more money than my husband. And my experience...is most women I know couldn't/wouldn't handle that.
I have many friends who see our relationship and say they want what we have. And I think to myself that they wouldn't be willing to pay the price I paid for it.
He was costly...but he was worth it. We just celebrated our 13th anniversary.
Katrina at November 14, 2013 8:16 PM
"Indeed, I don't think that's true. I'm saying that many, probably most, aren't really all that comfortable with a partner who exceeds them in a traditionally masculine way -- like earning more money. "
That's because they know that the chances of such a relationship succeeding are slim. The data consisitently shows (Amy has repeatedly provided links in past columns on the subject) that women very strongly prefer mates of high social status. It's as much of an attractiveness factor for women as physical beauty is for men. And most women have difficultly maintaining respect for a man who is less successful than them. Of course there are always individual exceptions, but in general, men who are leery of relationships with successful women are simply making a rational mating choice.
Cousin Dave at November 15, 2013 6:47 AM
"Women who are 4's and 5's in the looks department think that their MBA's and PHD's bump them up to 8's and 9's. Nope, you're just a highly educated 4."
So – how many of you here think that Amy Farrah Fowler is hot?
Radwaste at November 15, 2013 8:20 AM
I know Master's and PhD. women who are always throwing themselves at the feet of guys that have to have AT LEAST their level of schooling, plus all the metro- qualities.
Those quys who would be such hot commodities that they have their choice. Those chicas seem shocked when those studly guys don't call back after the walk of shame. Duh.
I guess this must be on the humanities side. Something like 90% of married female scientists are wedded to male scientists, but I tend to think of that as a meeting of geek minds more than status hook-ups. (Not sure astrophysicist marrying astrophysicist is exactly one for the NY Times society page.)
I dated plenty of engineers but then I was one myself as an undergrad.
Astra at November 15, 2013 9:50 AM
"All that makes it sound you're one of the guys who would have a very hard time dating a woman more successful than he is. And a very hard time admitting that a woman could be both successful and not shallow/a shrew/"illogical"." Gail
On the contrary, I have often dated more successful women... depending on your definition of success. The point I was making has been aptly shown by others on this very thread... that instead of being necessarily an ego thing with men, it is an experiential response. Either personal experience, or tribal knowledge, it's just a mating strategy.
sorta 'how you gonna keep 'em down on the farm, when the city awaits?'
if the evopsych people are correct, then the differences in interest between one mate wanting high status, and the other wanting physical beauty are actually the best combo. That way mates aren't competing with each other, rather they are only competing with other candidates, so when the selection is made there is no internal strife in the pair.
OTOH, there still is a trading scheme involved, where mates may try to "trade up" [hypergamous as it were] Women to higher status men, men to more beautiful women, which is why the social structure of monogamous marriage was introduced to keep it from running away.
But, in this situation, there is a quadrant group that has a more difficult time, and that would be high status successful women. The mates for them with higher status aren't a very large group, and EVERY woman on the continuum is gunning for them.
Meanwhile, men of lower status, are going to be those "settled" upon, because they have something, but not as much to offer.
It is they that have benefited most from monogamous marriage, relatively. Since that model is on the wane for various reasons... the whole enterprise is changing. Lower status men opt out because there is no advantage to them.
:shrug: /rambling
ps. as for "And a very hard time admitting that a woman could be both successful and not shallow/a shrew/"illogical"" Gail.
Meh, I'm not going to crucify every woman on that cross, just because my ex was like that... that is a situation of individuality.
SwissArmyD at November 15, 2013 10:19 AM
"So – how many of you here think that Amy Farrah Fowler is hot?" Raddy.
well... I dunno the character that well, being familiar with the show, rather than a watcher of it..
but Mayim, herself? Have had a crush on her forever, it's prolly the smile.
SwissArmyD at November 15, 2013 11:06 AM
HAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHHAHAhahahahahhaa...So...HAHAHAHahahhaha.
Ok, I'm done.
Women scream up and down about how only love matters, and scold men relentlessly for our preferences, but I see scant few women willing to date 1. Men shorter than them 2. Men who earn less than them.
The internet is inundated with women bellyaching they can't find a "good man" = good meaning affluent, attractive, and tall.
But that's ok because women get to be "choosy." Meanwhile men are shamed for not marrying the first overweight vapid single mother who bats an eyelash at us.
TMG at November 15, 2013 12:38 PM
Well, I did :) Hubby is 5'6", I'm 5'10". He made $32000 the first year we were married (we had 2 kids that first year). He makes 3, going on 4 times that much now, 10 years later. He's a hard worker with a skill set that's uncommon nowadays. He has plenty more room to advance and earn more over time too.
I KNEW he was a hard worker with a trade where he would advance-I would NOT have married a lazy person. Also, he was super nice, to everyone. He makes me laugh. He makes me feel safe. And he may hit me in the chin, but he can sling me over his (broad) shoulders and haul me around all day. I love it.
My 5'9" good friend married a dude a good 2 inches shorter. My 5'10" college roommate married a 5'9" guy. They're both successful dudes too, if not super hot. So the short-guy thing never made sense to me. I don't see it in practice. Maybe I just don't gravitate to people that can't see past one aspect of physicality, no matter how many other things are great. But broke with no prospects? I see that all the time-that's a personality trait they could address if they wanted to.
momof4 at November 15, 2013 7:34 PM
1)Class has increasingly become a marker of attractiveness
2)Feminists have engineered society to their mate competition advantage so men spend less time around women of lower classes.
3)If women have "same educational status as me" as a mate selection criteria, then they have to understand when men have "lower BMI than me" as a criteria they will pursue if they have the mate value to pursue it. Neither is fair and neither is less shallow than the other. And women have to get if you are hypergamous, you have defacto lowered the pool of marriageable men and the men you deem marriageable don't much care about your status. So if you are pulling down 6 figures and want a man that does the same, you gotta bring to the mate game what men like, not try to convince them that what you like is "right" and what they like is "wrong".
Brian at November 16, 2013 9:09 AM
Leave a comment