Mom Of 19 Michelle Duggar's Secret To A Happy Marriage
It's never say no to sex. Hanna Rosin writes at Slate:
Reading last weekend's New York Times Magazine, "Does a More Equal Marriage Mean Less Sex?," I was feeling a little anxious. My husband both loads and unloads the dishwasher. He sweeps the kitchen floor now and again. When our kids were in diapers, he changed a whole lot of diapers. Is my marriage doomed? But then just in time for Valentine's Day came some advice, via the Today show website: seven tips for "keeping your marriage sexy, even after (a lot of) kids."The advice comes from the best possible source, Jim Bob and Michelle Duggar. The reason they are good role models is because despite having 19 kids, the "romance is still strong." In fact, they are "like a newlywed couple every day," says Jim Bob. The No. 1 secret? "Say yes to sex, even when you're tired." Apparently a friend once gave Michelle advice she will never forget: "In your marriage there will be times you're going to be very exhausted. Your hubby comes home after a hard day's work, you get the baby to bed, and he is going to be looking forward to that time with you. ... Anyone can fix him lunch, but only one person can meet that physical need of love that he has, and you always need to be available when he calls." But don't worry. This isn't creepy or anything, because, "it's not all sexytime at the Duggars. They abstain when Michelle has her period, and also after childbirth: 80 days before sex if it's a girl, 40 days after a boy."
A very uncomplicated myth is taking hold in our culture, that our perilous drift away from roles based on gender essentialism (women raise kids, men lift heavy objects and sweat) is destroying our sex lives. The New York Times Magazine story is based on a survey that, using information from the mid-1990s, says that when men did certain kinds of "feminine" chores around the house--folding laundry, cooking or vacuuming--couples had sex 1.5 fewer times per month. And conservatives love to quote an old health survey showing that evangelical women have better sex. But this glimpse into the Duggars' bedroom reveals what I have always suspected. If it is true that less-equal marriages have more sex, it's not because the men are doused with sexy man pheromones when they fix the car engine but refuse to wipe the counter. It's because the women don't say no.
I wrote about this in my column in 2007:
Relationships are filled with little tasks that don't exactly bring a person to screaming orgasm. A man, for example, doesn't wake up in the middle of the night with some primal longing to bring his girlfriend flowers, rehang her back door, or clean the trap in her sink. Like sex, these things can be expressions of love, but if a guy's going to lock himself in the bathroom, it's not going to be with "Bob Vila's Complete Guide to Remodeling Your Home."So, couldn't putting out when you aren't in the mood be seen as just another expression of love? Joan Sewell, author of I'd Rather Eat Chocolate: Learning to Love My Low Libido, told The Atlantic Monthly, "If you have sex when you don't desire it, physically desire it, you are going to feel used." Well, okay, perhaps. But, if a guy rotates a woman's tires when he doesn't desire it, physically desire it, does he feel used?
Actually, we all do plenty of things with our bodies that we don't really feel like; for instance, taking our bodies to work when we have a hangover instead of putting our bodies in front of some greasy hash browns, and then to bed. For women, however, sexual things are supposed to be out of the question. I think the subtext here is not doing things we really don't feel like if it GIVES A MAN PLEASURE. And no, I'm not advocating rape or anything remotely close to it. And, of course, if you find sex with your husband or boyfriend a horrible chore, you're in the wrong place. Otherwise, if you're with a man, and he's nice to you, and works hard to please you, would it kill you to throw him a quickie?
Where do you stand -- fall into bed -- on this?
I'd refer the Duggars to the timeless words of the late, great Winston Churchill:
"It's a uterus, not a clown car, lady!".
Anyway I think it was Churchill.
It might have been Marx. Probably not Karl.
Gog_Magog_Carpet_Reclaimers at February 16, 2014 11:58 PM
I wish my wife would read this. Nuf said.
a_random_guy at February 17, 2014 12:11 AM
I do not like the Dugars on so many levels it's obvious to me there is a certain vapid quality to Michelle. The whole hehe I'm just a girl so glad my husband thinks for me. Also on a philosophical level I find them repugnant. That being said I won't say I never refuse sex w my husband but yes after kids you are tired and just because you aren't in the mood right then doesn't mean you can't get there. I'm 9 months pregnant and we already have one child. However I love that my husband tells me I'm beautiful every day and I very much doubt he physically desires to clean the kitchen (I can barely reach the sink or bend for the dishwasher at the point) or mop the floors after he works 12 hours. However I sure do appreciate it and show him often! My friends his friends and some family members wonder how I got so lucky to have a partner who is so helpful! It's give a little ladies!
Lrj at February 17, 2014 12:20 AM
I'm pretty much always up for it, unless I have a migraine or the flu or something. It's not that I never say no, it's that I choose my nos carefully. And if we have a dry spell (say five days or a week or so) I make sure to wear something that shows cleavage and that takes care of that.
That said, if he wanted it 5 times a night I might feel differently.
I have never watched the Duggars and do not have an opinion on them.
NicoleK at February 17, 2014 12:39 AM
For reference, we average about every other day. I'm not sure what is normal, but that feels pretty normal to us, it gives us rest in between but keeps us satisfied.
I think it must be pretty average because for every anecdote I hear about someone doing it five times a day I hear one about someone who hasn't for months.
NicoleK at February 17, 2014 12:40 AM
One thing that confirmed my belief that we weren't "designed" by a loving creator was the incompatibility of men and women.
Also when I learned that pigs ejaculate for 10 minutes.
Ppen at February 17, 2014 2:25 AM
I'm not a fan, but my wife is.
She pointed out that the Duggar household is tremendously organized, that they have never been on welfare, and that all of the children have responsibilities.
I can see the idea that some people would hate watching the show, based on it being reality TV, but I suspect a lot of this resentment is because this large family is making ends meet – no, succeeding spectacularly – and there are some who hate success because of the pressure it puts on them.
Got a big family? Wondering how to make ends meet?
Get off that butt, and do more than settle for a minimum wage job.
Radwaste at February 17, 2014 4:57 AM
Don't they get a lot of donations, though? I mean above and beyond hand-me-downs?
http://slog.thestranger.com/2008/05/welfare_ok_if_youre_christian
It's fine if there's only one family of 20 around, it is enough of a novelty that people will give you stuff because it is entertaining, but ultimately wouldn't work if everyone did it.
Got a big family? Wondering how to make ends meet? Get lots of people to give you free stuff.
NicoleK at February 17, 2014 5:56 AM
Yeah, the Duggars aren't getting by entirely on their own merits, but their novelty act has its own rewards.
As for sex: Sometimes I say no. Sometimes my husband says no. Neither of us says no very frequently. Having enough sex is couple-specific. Every other day would be too frequent for us, but we have the same expectations, so it all works out.
MonicaP at February 17, 2014 6:19 AM
I'm 8th of 9 and my wife and I have 3. When our kids were little (3 in diapers) I complained to my mom how difficult it was and wondered how she managed 9 with little help from my dad.
She told me it got better after 3 because the older ones began helping with the younger ones.
Not being one to take the easy path, my wife and I stopped at 3.
Goo at February 17, 2014 6:36 AM
"They abstain when Michelle has her period, and also after childbirth: 80 days before sex if it's a girl, 40 days after a boy.""
Someone has clearly read Leviticus pretty closely.
Mike at February 17, 2014 6:50 AM
OK, one other thing. One thing that plays into this is that women's sexual response is a little different than men's. Dan Savage likes to say that men get aroused and want to have sex while women start having sex and get aroused. So with married couples with kids, "priming the pump" so to speak can sometimes be a Godsend. If you wait for something spontaneous, it will never happen. but if you say, "we'll do it tonight after the kids are in bed", you'll find you're having fun despite yourself.
Mike at February 17, 2014 7:03 AM
I've often thought women say No to sex, not because they don't feel like having sex so much as they don't want you having sex. Frankly, there isn't much women actually are required to do. We'd like women to be active and energetic, but it isn't required every time.
I saw a repulsive commercial for Excedrin I think. The couple is in bed and the woman says the pain reliever really worked on her headache. The guy flips off the light. Seconds later, the woman flips it on, saying, "Forget it Buster".
I guess that's supposed to be funny, shutting down your husband like that. It wouldn't be funny if she said, "Can we catch up tomorrow?" or "Can you take a rain check?" Tell you this, guys don't get married to be roughly rejected. Sometimes girls have to turn us down, but gently please.
I'd let a woman talk to me like that once. Do it again and I am never asking again. My name is not Buster.
spongeworthy at February 17, 2014 7:10 AM
@NicoleK:
"Got a big family? Wondering how to make ends meet? Get lots of people to give you free stuff."
Well, yes. They're called hand-me-downs. Large families (and small families) have been using hand-me-downs since forever. What's your point?
AB at February 17, 2014 9:49 AM
@Lrj:
"Also on a philosophical level I find them repugnant."
How tolerant and enlightened of you.
AB at February 17, 2014 9:50 AM
I don't watch TV, so I can't comment on that specific family, but I know plenty of large families (read as 4+ kids... with + going up to about 9). Here's a practical take on the economics of multiple children:
Most of the big expenses for kids are things you don't need to buy more than 1-2 of. Unless you have triplets, you won't ever need more than 1-2 cribs. One kid outgrows a car seat and the next grows into it. You only need 1 high chair, one -2 strollers, clothes can be passed down in most cases, plastic cups/spoons bottles, etc. are all reusable. The only thing that isn't is the disposable diapers and formula. Sure, if you have enough kids the car seat will be destroyed at some point and you'll need a replacement, but it's not the same as buying one new thing of EVERYTHING for each kid.
Also, once you have three kids, you are GUARANTEED that at least two will be the same sex. This means that once they are out of baby clothes, you have very little you'll have to buy clothing-wise. The only reason I don't promise for baby clothes is because one could be born in summer one in winter, but by age 3-4, they wear the same size for a whole season.
My youngest (of 2) is a girl and just by chance I have gotten lots of hand-me-downs from friends for her. Clothing her has been maybe 1/10th the cost of clothing my son - and I choose to buy her fancy shoes because I haven't spent anything on her clothes. I could easily get by with only buying her undies and socks.
Shannon M. Howell at February 17, 2014 9:54 AM
y'know? If she is happy, she is happy.
"it's obvious to me there is a certain vapid quality to Michelle." Lrj
see above.
A remarkably simple, but happy person is no less worthy in this life... in fact I know several that bring me great joy to interact with, because that's what they do... that's who they are. Don't know if the Duggars are like that or not, never seen their shows.
It's fine to say you wouldn't make those choices, but I've seen a lot of relentless nastiness surrounding Michelle in particular... I guess she gave in to the patriarchy or something, and is thus a traitor.
It is entirely possible that a loving couple that are intertwined chemically, doin' what humans do, without barriers... might be very happy indeed. All that fun chemistry, is designed for that, you know.
Also, they've singlehandedly replaced a buncha people who are childless that they will never know, but that wasn't the point.
Ultimately, they are extreme outliers no matter how you count it.
But maybe we could even accept a slightly less difficult imperative than "never say no", and replace that with: "stop using sex as a weapon."
It's not for naught that we have a cultural trope about when a guy messes up, he ends up on the couch [obviously frozen out of sex for a while]... but interestingly I can't think of an equivalent trope about women. Can you?
What's astonishing sad to me, is that we find people with such happy marriages such an outlier, that they give advice...
I know we have plenty o' good couples chiming in here, including our blogoddess... but also plenty of people that have had marriages crater for various reasons.
But. I can tell you that I wouldn'a stopped my marriage, if I had felt one iota of love coming the other way [including physical affection, even]
So, how do you qualify it, when one person is trying to force the other person out, but without being the aggressor?
Oh, yeah, start saying "NO" every time, and/or only say yes, when it's impossible.
"Ah, but sooner or later you sleep
In your own space
Either way it's okay
You wake up with yourself" some guy named Billy
SwissArmyD at February 17, 2014 10:14 AM
We regularly observe small-family middle class American Jews who come to Israel for a summer/semester and encounter large families - and family-oriented society - for the first time.
Even secular Israelis often have 3 or more kids and the culture is much more child-friendly.
The response is almost always positive.
My own feeling is that people raised in large families have a stronger identity, see their parents MORE (since the parents are family-oriented), are more realistic, less narcissistic, and enjoy a lifetime network of emotional support, practical aid, and connections.
These benefits far outweigh the "attention" lavished on children in small families - by often absent, self-centered, or uninterested parents.
Ben David at February 17, 2014 10:26 AM
Hell hath no fury like a woman refused sex:
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/buster/naked-mom-tirade-after-sex-denial-356712
See also the last line with links to similar incidents.
Snoopy at February 17, 2014 10:55 AM
Ben David said:
> Even secular Israelis often have 3 or more kids
> and the culture is much more child-friendly.
> My own feeling is that people raised in large
> families have a stronger identity, see their
> parents MORE (since the parents are family-
> oriented), are more realistic, less narcissistic,
> and enjoy a lifetime network of emotional
> support, practical aid, and connections.
Not been my experience with the Orthodox Jewish community. I've seen Orthodox Jews with many children cut off their children for "offences" like:
* marrying a Liberal Jew
* marrying a Christian
* marrying someone who only converted to Judaism
* marrying someone who practices Judaism, but mother is not Jewish
* marrying someone who once saw a psychiatrist
* cohabiting without marriage
Snoopy at February 17, 2014 11:02 AM
I read most of this "submission"/gender-roles stuff as pushback against a generation of women who have been conditioned to believe that:
"Honey can you grab me a beer while you're up?"
Is an expression of the patriarchy.
Or, to paraphrase twenty years of societal conditioning: a man who gets his wife breakfast in bed is a catch. A women who does the same is betraying her gender.
AB at February 17, 2014 11:21 AM
NicoleK wrote:
For reference, we average about every other day. I'm not sure what is normal, but that feels pretty normal to us, it gives us rest in between but keeps us satisfied.
My wife and I are about the same. As long as we make love frequently, it doesn't matter if we postpone a day for any reason. By the next night, we are just a little more eager.
Steamer at February 17, 2014 12:02 PM
"It's not for naught that we have a cultural trope about when a guy messes up, he ends up on the couch [obviously frozen out of sex for a while]... but interestingly I can't think of an equivalent trope about women. Can you?"
I didn't know that was supposed to be about sex; I thought it was about intimacy itself, and comfort. But I've never known, in real life, a situation in which a married person had the authority to order the other person off the bed. I've only known people who voluntarily withdraw to the couch, the guest room, or the floor.
Joy McCann at February 17, 2014 1:23 PM
"I didn't know that was supposed to be about sex; I thought it was about intimacy itself, and comfort." Joy McCann
Are you saying these things are unrelated to each other? Ever wondered if a man views intimacy somewhat differently than a woman?
As for authority, she starts chuckin' things at you and then slams and locks the bedroom door? Maybe you've never known someone who wields their authority that way...
But, how different is that from someone who behaves in such a way that you DO withdraw, just to get away, or shut them up, or not make things worse, or let them cool off...
is it ACTUALLY different?
SwissArmyD at February 17, 2014 3:16 PM
@ab they get free groceries and building supplies for their new house... They are not doing on thier own. Lots of people arent, it happens. But they shouldnt be held up as s paragon of fiscal responsability when they are a charity case
Nicolk at February 18, 2014 1:48 AM
@NicoleK, I get your point - many large families do need help - but you're wrong on the Duggars.
They're no more a charity case than an entrepreneur who starts a business to be able to pay for a big house, lavish vacations and expensive cars.
The Duggars have an expensive lifestyle (i.e. having a lot of kids). To pay for it, they started a business (i.e. being the Duggars). People voluntarily pay money to watch them on television, hear them speak at events, or purchase their products.
Businesses give the Duggars supplies because it's product placement on a television show and thus a smart business decision. Not because it's charity.
As for most other large families, most are very budget-conscious. They need to be. They use hand-me-downs, second-hand stores and food co-ops. They don't go out to eat, on vacation, or to the movies nearly as much (even if they could afford it, it's often too big a hassle to be enjoyable anyway). There are economies in scale, lifestyle choices to be made, and sacrifices.
But to them, it's worth it, and I still fail to see how it's our business.
AB at February 18, 2014 5:56 AM
I haven't clicked on anything yet, but I don't see anyone mentioning the lack of interest on the husband's part to HELP the wife have more enthusiasm when she's tired - or when he just doesn't know anything about lovemaking as opposed to sex. Female selfishness is hardly the only reason a wife might say no, when you think about it.
From Ann Landers, 1996 (in response to "Frustrated in New Orleans"):
"May I respond to that deluded husband who believes sex is part of a woman's marital duties? He felt his wife should treat sex the same as any other obligation that helps keep the household running smoothly. As he so nicely put it, 'I don't want to get up Saturday morning and clean the storm drains, but I do it anyway.'
"I was married to an animal like that for 12 years. Fortunately, I was required to 'perform' only once a week. I had no interest in sex because there was no love in our marriage. Everything was cut and dried.
"When my husband passed away, I waited the respectable year and then married a man who sends me over the moon. It was then that I discovered what I had been missing. Sign me...
Luckier The Second Time Around"
"Dear Luckier: Thanks for the testimony. The reader response to that column was overwhelming. More men wrote than women. The percentage was about 60-40, a rare occurrence. What follows is a sampling...."
From Dear Abby, 1980:
"I'm....tired of living with a slob. I have to nag my husband to shower and use a deodorant. I don't think he knows where his toothbrush is. So If he can live without a toothbrush, I can live without sex."
(That was part of a huge response to "Tired in Lincoln, Nebraska," who claimed that many or most women get little satisfaction from sex; they're just trying to please their husbands. The ayes and nays came out 50/50. Since the writer was likely born in 1930, I have a hunch that most of those her age who agreed with her had never had oral sex in either direction. Not that that always changes the picture, of course - even today, there may be youngish women, even single women, who just aren't even interested in having a good sex life.)
And, from Ann Landers, there's a lovely letter from a wife in her 60s, in 1976:
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1697&dat=19760112&id=0CUqAAAAIBAJ&sjid=1kYEAAAAIBAJ&pg=6542,1470973
In it, she describes how her husband always comes home dirty from his job, but cleans thoroughly, AND compliments her on cooking, etc., AND gives her time after a hard day to relax and talk in bed before making love. It was reprinted in the Ann Landers Encyclopedia.
And, without making any apologies for the pros or cons of any religion, here's what one religious sex-ed teacher taught his teen students:
"You don't just come home.......and jump on your wife. She's not a horse. You have to show respect. If she's tired from working, you should let her rest. Don't think you can just have her anytime you want. She's not your slave. If she's not in the mood, you should try to put her in the mood. Play music, dance, hold her, make jokes, make her laugh. You have to play with her."
lenona at February 18, 2014 4:03 PM
"I haven't clicked on anything yet, but I don't see anyone mentioning the lack of interest on the husband's part to HELP the wife have more enthusiasm when she's tired - or when he just doesn't know anything about lovemaking as opposed to sex."
It seemed obvious to me that they were talking about Guys who were pretty good folks that would provide the help you speak of and to your other point, if your spouse is terrible in bed, you ( that's right you) have an obligation to tell them (nicely) and give them some indication of how to improve and make the experience better for you. Unless of course you are a complete tool and want to do everything in your power to crater the relationship.
causticf at February 18, 2014 7:22 PM
Maybe I should have said "when he just doesn't CARE about lovemaking as opposed to sex."
There ARE spouses who start out loving and giving but eventually lose interest in anything but their own pleasure when in bed - and expect their spouses to keep being available even though they KNOW their behavior is a turn-off. That happened in Doris Day's third marriage - she said they used to have a good sex life, early in their marriage, but Marty eventually started behaving selfishly in bed to the point where Doris cut him off and gave him permission to sleep with other women, since, I'm guessing, she knew he wouldn't change just to improve her own sex life. He accepted. They stayed married - but, as it turned out, they shouldn't have, since he lost her money to a con-artist lawyer.
lenona at February 19, 2014 8:28 AM
I put out 90% of the time my husband asks for it, whether I want to or not. I'm a Stay at Home mom and he goes to work every day whether he wants to or not. Often I don't want the intimacy. I want to go to sleep. All I care about is whether he's satisfied. If he is, that's enough for me. I get to stay with my kids while he deals with work.
NikkiG at February 19, 2014 6:28 PM
@AB it doesn't make me any less enlightened than you just because you are a fan. They treat their daughters as less I find that distasteful.
Lrj at February 19, 2014 7:20 PM
Leave a comment